Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, one of the first questions people ask when they find I'm trans is "Are you going to get the surgery?" "So...are you gay, or what?"

Now, nevermind the various answers we could give them...consider the gravity of the thought:


1. If I am "straight" (i.e., I prefer women), as I transition, will I keep my preference for women (making me lesbian);
2. If I am "gay" (i.e., prefer men), as I transition, will I keep my preference for men (making me straight)
3. But, if I am straight, as I transition, will I keep my "straightness", and change my preference to men?
4. Or, if I am gay, will I lose my faboolus desires, and start to prefer women?
5. And if I am bi, will my dominant preference change in like manner?


That is the basic framework of this thread...is "preference" (man or woman as partner) changeable via HRT, or is "orientation" (gay or straight) changeable via HRT?

One cannot simply "stay" one or the other...because that will change the other word-label we use to communicate. If you stay "gay", then your partner(s) will change...if you keep your preference for a particular gender, then your orientation will change.

I'm sure everyone here will say they are one, or the other...so I'm not really looking for a vote on how HRT affects us...but I am interested in knowing the Hive Minds' thoughts on which is more...umm...superficial? (sorry, lack of a better phrase).

Will a formerly gay TS have more of a struggle accepting the (previously) non-desired partner's gender, or will a formerly straight partner have more of a struggle accepting the (previously) non-desired partner's gender? Or do you think it'll depend on the person, and how they choose to see things?

I was just thinking random stuff today, and one thought-stream boiled down to the flexibility of the terms we use for these things...

Peace, and please be considerate.

:)

I guess I don't see it that way? My first relationship was after I knew exactly what I was, and she knew exactly what I was. My first sexual and romantic inclinations are pretty tied up in my dysphoria and my body and ya... it's a mess. I knew I was attracted to the female-ish spectrum, but as far as I was concerned I was planning to never have a relationship with anyone ever because I was broken. It was only after I found out about transsexualism and whatnot that I shifted that perception. So... I dunno.

I think I see it different because of that. Folks aren't straight until they are gay. They are closeted-gay until they are gay. I was closeted-gay until I was gay.

I lived as a gay man for most of my life, so I went in to transition thinking I was a hetero woman - I must have been, I'd spent so long chasing men..

Then, about 18 months in to my transition, I fell in love - with another woman. This caused me to do some introspection, which made me realise that I had never loved a man. Seems I'm a lesbian - and always have been..

I've identified as bi for most of my adult life, since my teens (and before I'd had sex with anyone), but with a fairly strong emotional leaning towards women.  I don't really see that changing post-transition, but I remain ready for surprises.

Aside from the linguistic tangles, I'm not sure I understand what it is you want to hear? 

I have had some questions to myself, lately, about this, partly the result of one unfortunate encounter with a long-time friend who decided to come onto me -- I've mentioned this in past threads probably a bit more than anyone cares to hear about.  For me, despite the fact that I've had one more male partner than I've had female partners (if we only count sex and not dating), I do realize that at least some of my past preference for women as preferred partners has to do with communication and an ability to be more intimate, something that may boil down to my feeling that, whatever they might say, male partners to date have clearly been after a part of me that I'm not especially fond of, and, at this point tend to avoid having it become an active part of any sexual encounter.

So, would that change, post-transition? Quite possibly, but I don't really know how much or even if it would. I said yes to sex with the two men I've had it with because they were direct and polite (more or less) in asking for it. The second one was kind of indirect, and frankly, it felt a bit creepy to me that he spent such a long time non-verbally trying to hint at his desire, when coming out and asking would probably have gotten him what he wanted with far less delay, and a lot less expectation on my part that he was looking for a long-term relationship.

As with many things sexual, it pretty much has ended the friendship. Or at least he hasn't contacted me, lately, and I have no desire to abase myself by pursuing him, especially when he is married, and I should have probably been more resolute in saying no, since it has led to at least a degree of self-loathing that I really didn't need to invite.

People seem to construct their sense of orientation so differently, I hesitate to try to generalize my own experience in any way, since in some ways it doesn't seem to be echoed exactly in any of the narratives I've read from others. Maybe they're not being as analytical of their encounters as I'm being? Maybe the feel something similar (or very different) but feel pressured to adopt a set of linguistic conventions they've found from the places that fit their own experiences most closely? (I know I've done that in the past). 

I'd rather describe things in detail, and leave labels for tuna fish cans and other products that need them.

I used to like men and women equally. Now, I'm only interested in women. I identify as a lesbian now.

Well, I for one am indifferent when it comes to to orientation. I like people of both genders. However, if I were to pick between two people of the same personality, I would definitely go for a man. I just love the feeling of being in those big, strong arms.

Hmm, I might experience a shift more towards men at this rate.  :laugh:

Quote...Aside from the linguistic tangles, I'm not sure I understand what it is you want to hear?...

Mainly a discussion on the solidity of "orientation" -vs- "preference", specifically which term (if either) is more easily changed (and thus, less substantial in absolute meaning). There may not be a cut-and-dried answer, but the discussion would be neat to read.

In my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...

But if I were to change my preferences and want a man (which is conceivable, especially post-op), that changes my internal vision of myself, which is a larger change than merely identifying with a new label. To me, changing preference is a more fundamental change than changing orientation. (I could be wrong).

And of course, this is just a hypothetical semantics discussion, we're not formulating dogma or anything.

I've always identified as Bi, which led me to be confused as to why I'd had so few relationships with men prior to transition.  Since I started transition, and for the first time ever had a guy see me and be attracted to me as a woman, it all suddenly made sense.  Gay guys (like everyone else) always saw my body and were attracted to me as a guy.  For some reason being with men used to make me even more aware of being in the wrong body.  Hence, very few relationships with men.
Since I started transition I've been more attracted to men as I find them interacting with me in a way that confirms my sense of self rather than denying it.
My attraction to women has remained constant thus far.
I guess I'm saying I started Bi, and now I'm more Bi.

I'm bi (or more accurately Pansexual), but I can't have a relationship with a guy if he sees me as male. Hence why I tend to prefer girls. But if I had transitioned and was seen as female I probably would like guys and girls just as equally. Effectively it would appear that my orientation changed; but when analyzed I would just say that I was straight as a male (sort of Pansexual, as in every gender but cis male), but Pansexual as a female.

As much as I would like to say I'm a straight male...I can't because if I'm in a relationship with a girl and I am perceived and treated as male I could only cope for so long. Personally I would rather be perceived as androgynous-female, and sort of genderfluid as well. So for now I would call myself asexual, with the exception of being treated as female.

-Sky

Beth, I think it depends more on the person and the qualities they seek in a partner. Something I don't think that cis heteronormative people would have a hard time getting their heads around.  Interesting question. I wonder if anyone has done a study of that...

Well I married a woman, who I love and care for, but I have always fancied guys. Since HRT my preference is only for guys. I have no sexual feelings for woman. So as far as semantics are concerned I'm straight.

Can't say I have any mental confusion or even thoughts about it to be honest. It's just what I am.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on February 08, 2013, 12:07:34 AM
Mainly a discussion on the solidity of "orientation" -vs- "preference", specifically which term (if either) is more easily changed (and thus, less substantial in absolute meaning). There may not be a cut-and-dried answer, but the discussion would be neat to read.

In my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...

But if I were to change my preferences and want a man (which is conceivable, especially post-op), that changes my internal vision of myself, which is a larger change than merely identifying with a new label. To me, changing preference is a more fundamental change than changing orientation. (I could be wrong).

And of course, this is just a hypothetical semantics discussion, we're not formulating dogma or anything.

Orientation vs. gender, as terms, for me tend to be politically loaded. I'm not adverse to being perceived as a gay male... well, the male part I am, but if forced to choose, maybe just because I felt that was how I was perceived by most, I think I'd prefer it to being seen as "straight."

Perhaps the source of my confusion in reading your post comes from this?

QuoteIn my case, as a straight male, as I transition I do sense a slight increase in interest towards men, but women are still the primary interest. Thus, as I transition I will identify as lesbian....which is just a change in labels, yes? Straight -vs- lesbian...  [emphasis added]

For me, being identified as a straight male (even if perhaps that was the "stranger perception" when I was married) was something that was hugely dysphoric for me. Maybe it's that I was aware of and wondering whether I wasn't transsexual from a fairly early age?  During the marriage, to myself, at least, I looked at our relationship as a lesbian relationship, and when I look at butch-femme dynamic as it's been described in the lesbian community in the years since I came of age sexually (which were the years of the flannel-and-doc-martens "uniform" at least among college-educated lesbians (which would include LUGs)) those descriptions were the ones that resonated the most for me, with my wife as soft butch and me as some sort of deep stealth femme (and not always deep stealth, especially to her).

I've more or less assumed that I would always be that way, but loneliness has gotten to me, or given me too much time to think about things, perhaps.  I still don't find myself aroused by gay male images, for the most part, but at one point I did realize that I actively avoided them. Even after addressing that, I really can't say they do much for me.  Then again, at this point, straight porn doesn't do much either (and it only ever did with me identifying with the actresses, and most of the time that seemed so faked (and I would hear my various girlfriends from years ago repeating their ridicule of its fakery) that it too was not good for me... oddly enough, it did quite a lot for my ex, and I discovered that the more softcore things that did something for me (the type of stuff usually identified as porn (or erotica) for women was likewise boring to my ex.

I think I've long tended to feel that, if I was going to use labels at all, I would use the ones of my own choice. And for me, I won't choose to use labels that are imposed from the outside... it seems too much like bowing to the oppressor for me.  I can fantasize about being submissive, and in some ways I am, I suppose, but forced submission and all that really doesn't do it for me either, and is in fact, at least most of the time, something that's a turn-off for me. I'm not sure I could keep a straight face if someone asked me to play domme. I'm drifting to this, I guess, because the thought of accepting a label like "straight male" has for me associations that are largely negative, and also just distorts and fails to say much that's relevant or truthful about any part of my own history, despite the fact that there might have been at least a few people out there (ones who knew almost nothing about me or my marriage) who might have used that term to describe me. Unless they could do it still after being a fly on the wall for a week or two of my daily life, I'd tend to say it's an irrelevant term for me.

Hoping this comes across as a description of my experience, rather than anything disrespecting your own choices in framing your history -- a history I clearly do no know in enough depth to say how I would (or would have) see/seen you at various points in your own life to date.

I've been thinking about this a lot recently as I move along more into my transition.  Previously I was a straight male, when I was trying to figure things out earlier in life and working on sorting out my feelings I thought... Maybe I'm gay.. Nope, zero attraction and desire to be with men. I guess that's out.. So as I've begun transition, has anything changed? No, not really. It's odd on the rare occasion when I get "attention" from males.. Throws me off like, " what are you doing?" But I'm no longer a "straight" male, however I'm not truly female (yet) so I'm a transbian? I would identify more with lesbians then gay men, or even straight women, actually one of my best friends is a lesbian and I think knowing her has made me more comfortable with my self in regards to partner preferences. 

I don't see my sexual orientation changing at all throughout my transitioning, before I was gynosexual, now I am gynosexual. Gynosexual as in attracted to women, or feminine features, most of the people I found attracted to are women with a few exceptions of very feminine looking guys.

I really like the idea of gynosexual and androsexual as it describes your sexual orientations without having to refer to your own gender in relation to the gender of the person you are attracted to. It's basicly just a fancy word for "I like girls", or "I like boys". :)

My preference was for oldermen. That kinda freaked me out, as a teenager, when I started to learn about the Freudian complexes and still took them seriously.

I have and generally still do, call my self gay because my feelings are toward a man, then society says that is gay. For me I have always and still do, see my self as a perfectly hetrosexual person with a problem with their equipment.

By comparison, as a child, I saw myself as a perfectly normal little girl who was alone because of my appearance. But I did have periods when I had very good female friendships. I saw these as friendships. It was others who referred to them as boy/girlfriend.

So I call myself gay because my concern for what others think is not sufficient to make sure they know the reality. And I am aware of how utterly arrogant that sounds, but it is more an expression of my refusal to apologise for existing!

Then, because I like a puzzle, I married a woman. A woman, who if she had had the choice and opportunity, would have been a male, long before. I married her because her character is everything I aspire to. I can't imagine any other measure really.

So, in conclusion, I now see these labels as excuses, which we make up, to offer society, so they won't want to beat us up. We revel in or seek to rectify the associations that society applies to our respective label.

Transgender isn't about those women in 'Percilla, Queen of the Desert'.  It's actually ......

Gay isn't about Elton John. It's actually .......

Bi-Sexual isn't about adultry, It's actually .....

Cross dressing isn't about pretending to be women. It's about....

I am me. Totally unique. Mostly harmless and willing to give as well as receive.

I was bi before and still am.

Right now I identify as mostly gay, with some slight bi-curiousness thrown in for good measure :P I guess if I transitioned that would make me a straight-ish female. I've said before that I think this is probably a good reason to include trans under the LGB umbrella, as (unless you are asexual) you will fit into the bi or gay category at one point or other, whether that be before or after you transition.

But I wouldn't get to hung up on how you label yourself, just go with it.

As for hrt, after reading some post's where people described it freeing up their sexuality to some degree I have to say I'm very curious about how it might affect me, I've only ever been with guys, but never really romantically, would that change I wonder.

I have always had girlfriends and was married three time.  All of which failed.  I did have a few encounters with men, but nothing major.

I began to consider myself a Bi.  But I think in reality, I am more about the person.  As I go along in transition I do find that, like Cindy, I fancy blokes.  Therefore, I would say I am  straight.

That does not mean that if I met the right gal, I would walk away.

The main stumbling block I find people have the hardest time comprehending when trying to explain being transgender is SEX =/= GENDER. And despite my best efforts, some people can not grasp this seemingly simple to me concept. Many people believe that if you were born male, and are trans, and interested in men, you have to be gay. Period. Same thinking applies to being born female, and trans. They don't grasp the concept of the mind dictating who you are, but leave it up to your anatomy. Then, if someone is bisexual or asexual, you can really watch their head explode, as this really destroys any of their arguments one way or the other. You can be MTF/FTM trans and bi, gay, straight, asexual or what ever you want and feel like being. Gender and sexual preference are two separate and mutually exclusive concepts.

As for who has it easier? I really think it depends on the person, as I've met quite a few trans people, of all different sexual preferences and genders, and there is not pattern, as far as I can see, to who has it easier. Life is life regardless... it comes down to how you as a person deal with it.

Jennx

Perhaps the question should be, what is gender?

We have the someone dismissive, yet perfectly accurate, comments such as 'It's between the ears', but that isn't enough. It's been said, it's that simple, but it may simply be too simple.

We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 09:54:55 AM
We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.

How so? Gender ≠ Sex -- the only thing vague here is that sex has multiple meanings. 

I'm assuming in this thread that "sex" means "sexuality" -- that is, orientation, preferences, and as many different spectra as one needs to describe it adequately to oneself, to others, or to those you think you might want to explain yours to.

Ditto about infinitely variable, and multi-dimensional, continuous spectra for gender, I expect.

Those who don't understand that sexuality comes in a wide range of flavors, mixes and degrees, probably are best avoided, unless you enjoy seeing their eyeballs pop out for the split second before they retreat to their hideyholes and scrub their brains clean of the bad person's confusing information (http://adventuresingender.tumblr.com/post/42563702408/bansand-nice-gender-did-your-mom-pick-it-out).

OR, you could . . . (http://adventuresingender.tumblr.com/post/42221129377/l-g-b-t-a-d-v-i-c-e-sararye)

Quote from: Ms. OBrien VT on February 08, 2013, 09:24:23 AM
As I go along in transition I do find that, like Cindy, I fancy blokes.  Therefore, I would say I am  straight.

Wait, since when do hair color preferences count as sexual orientation? Guys and girls can be blond...  ???

Quote from: DianaP on February 08, 2013, 03:31:15 PM
Wait, since when do hair color preferences count as sexual orientation? Guys and girls can be blond...  ???

I think you misread her. She said "blokes" not blonds.  ;D

Oops. I did. Sorry. Just got back from school, and I'm sleepy.

I for one am starting to think that I'm straight. I feel sleepy, and I keep imagining sleeping while cuddling with a guy on this cold winter's day.  ???

Quote from: Elspeth on February 08, 2013, 02:18:52 PM
How so? Gender ≠ Sex -- the only thing vague here is that sex has multiple meanings. 

I'm assuming in this thread that "sex" means "sexuality" -- that is, orientation, preferences, and as many different spectra as one needs to describe it adequately to oneself, to others, or to those you think you might want to explain yours to.

Well no, that isn't the point at all.

We, especially on Susans' but I think in the transgender community generally, have come to separate gender from sex, by the rather simple (simplistic) device of, Sex is between the legs and gender  between the ears.

Yet for most, sex and gender are almost synonymous. Perhaps with the exception of a sex act itself.

Beyond that, the cross over, for most, would seem to be almsot taken for granted. Yet we take for granted that they are tow entirely different things.

If we are to avoid making ourselves into a secret society, we really need to address this issue.

What exactly do we mean by gender?

Quote from: JennX on February 08, 2013, 09:24:52 AM
The main stumbling block I find people have the hardest time comprehending when trying to explain being transgender is SEX =/= GENDER. And despite my best efforts, some people can not grasp this seemingly simple to me concept.

It simply isn't adequate to dismiss such people as being too stupid to understand.

So, what qualities make gender different from sex in a way that almost anyone can readily accept?

The dictionary says for sex: either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

While for gender it is correctly, a class of a set.

Yet I suggest that more most ordinary people, even an awareness of the mathematical context, or it's neighbour in linguistics is generally unknown. Forms might say, as, Gender M/F or sex M/F. I doubt most give either a second thought.

Yet we have adopted the word Gender to describe what we is between the ears. An awareness of ourselves, innate and within a context of the class, Relationships, possibly family or society.

But while many will probably understand that, we need to have descriptions and references which will allow others to readily accept there is a difference.

Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class?

Quote from: DianaP on February 08, 2013, 03:48:11 PM
Oops. I did. Sorry. Just got back from school, and I'm sleepy.

I for one am starting to think that I'm straight. I feel sleepy, and I keep imagining sleeping while cuddling with a guy on this cold winter's day.  ???

Honestly, from reading your posts in the past I always thought you were straight.

Quote from: spacial
It simply isn't adequate to dismiss such people as being too stupid to understand.

So, what qualities make gender different from sex in a way that almost anyone can readily accept?

The dictionary says for sex: either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

While for gender it is correctly, a class of a set.

Yet I suggest that more most ordinary people, even an awareness of the mathematical context, or it's neighbour in linguistics is generally unknown. Forms might say, as, Gender M/F or sex M/F. I doubt most give either a second thought.

Yet we have adopted the word Gender to describe what we is between the ears. An awareness of ourselves, innate and within a context of the class, Relationships, possibly family or society.

But while many will probably understand that, we need to have descriptions and references which will allow others to readily accept there is a difference.

Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class?

To better state my point, I should say Sexual Preference =/= Gender Identity.

I generally don't dismiss people ever so quickly... until say after a year or two of deep and meaningful effort on my part, to the best of my abilities, to explain and elucidate this point, is when at which time, I dismiss them. They are then allowed to wallow in their own ignorance. Forever.  ;)

People like things to have labels, and to be able to place them in boxes. Gay cis-male, likes other men... in to the stereotypical gay guy label/box. Lesbian cis-girl, likes other girls, in to the stereotypical lesbian girl label/box.

Now what happens with a trans-male or trans-female, that like other females and/or males... uh oh... how to do we label them, where to we put them. What to do, what to do? More importantly... how do we feel about this? Are we threatened by it? Does it cause us to question ourselves too much? If people can't understand an issue, and really get educated about and fully comprehend it's meaning... they can never really give their honest, unbiased, and true opinion on it. So until more people learn that sexual preference and gender identity are two separate and exclusive things, most really aren't qualified to give their opinion on the subject. Yes... bisexual, trans-people do exist... as well as asexual trans-people... and many other colors of the rainbow. So until people start to realize this, they will never be able to understand the concept.

Gender is far, far more than what's in your mind. It's a vast, far reaching and dynamic concept that varies with the individual and is near impossible to always fit in to any given set of labels or boxes.

If I may I will point out that in # xx where I wrote, on my last line, Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class? I should have written Gender ≠ Sex.

Sorry about that.  :embarrassed:

Quote from: JennX on February 08, 2013, 06:56:48 PM
To better state my point, I should say Sexual Preference =/= Gender Identity.



Gender is far, far more than what's in your mind. It's a vast, far reaching and dynamic concept that varies with the individual and is near impossible to always fit in to any given set of labels or boxes.

The first point. with respect, I think is accepted by most.

As for the second, I've just had a thought.

Why are we pursuing this at all?

I mean, why are we so resistance to the notion of changing sex or gender, whatever people prefer?

If someone achieves full SRS and completely passes, as I understand, almost everyone who has full SRS does, what difference does it make if someone says they changed sex, gender, gender identity or whatever?

I'm making this point for myself really. I have realised that I have been somewhat seduced by the notion that sex and gender are somehow so very different that it is important to make the point. Yet Why? Why should it matter?

Sexual preference is a personal matter.

Also, sorry JennX and any other, I may have been pursuing this point from the wrong angle altogether. Feeling a bit silly now!  ;D

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 08:13:32 PM
If I may I will point out that in # xx where I wrote, on my last line, Therefore, what do we mean by Gender ≠ class? I should have written Gender ≠ Sex.

Sorry about that.  :embarrassed:

The first point. with respect, I think is accepted by most.

Yep. Most... not all. And those few that don't get it, really make me scratch my head in wonder.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 08:13:32 PM
As for the second, I've just had a thought.

Why are we pursuing this at all?

I mean, why are we so resistance to the notion of changing sex or gender, whatever people prefer?

If someone achieves full SRS and completely passes, as I understand, almost everyone who has full SRS does, what difference does it make if someone says they changed sex, gender, gender identity or whatever?

I'm making this point for myself really. I have realised that I have been somewhat seduced by the notion that sex and gender are somehow so very different that it is important to make the point. Yet Why? Why should it matter?

Sexual preference is a personal matter.

Also, sorry JennX and any other, I may have been pursuing this point from the wrong angle altogether. Feeling a bit silly now!  ;D

It shouldn't matter. To people such as myself, and my close circle of friends, it makes no difference at all. People are people. Each different and unique. However to some (I guess those would be the ones mentioned above) it makes a huge issue, where IMHO there really is none at all... except of their own making.

I pass (hate that word btw) just fine now, and have for several years pre-HRT as well... but if I go out with a guy on a few dates, then decide to tell him I'm trans, guess what, if he gets mad, one of the first things he'll say is: "I'm not gay"... usually to which I respond... "neither am I". So? People have ingrained and intertwined the concepts of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and gender presentation for so long, it's hard for some to tell the difference between them. It really shouldn't be an issue, but for some, it is something they will never grasp.

When you are horny, what do you want to be with?

That basically answers the question.

I am in a male body, so if I am having sex, it's with male sex organs.

I claim to be a woman.

I have gone so far as to respond to the wife's comment "I don't want to have sex with a woman" by saying, 'you already are'.

I have a strap on I can't remove, that squirts the real thing. But when I am having sex, I am with what I wish to be with (a female).

Mentally I guess I am a lesbian. So I suppose someone could claim I was mentally homosexual.

It will be a cold day in hell before I am wearing a sexy nighty bent over with a surgically arrived at vagina waiting to get mounted by a man though. Not at gun point either.

I have though, a circumstance preventing me from ever experiencing sex with a male. And it is entirely bias driven. I hate men. No I REALLY hate men. The thing is, I have this hate thanks to my history background. Men are responsible for almost all of the world's problems. I blame them for it. I hate men.

I will never find myself sufficiently female, that I am ok with letting a man enjoy me as one.

While I understand why we are geneally grouped together with the homosexual crowd, I don't actually consider me as part of their reality. I am not a cis man seeking a cis man. Nor a cis woman seeking a cis woman. I am an ordinary woman in an extraordinary circumstance and nothing else as I see it. I feel more akin to a feminist stuck in her worst nightmare.

It is likely that being able to come to terms with one's true self can cause a freeing of inhibitions and what seems to be a change in orientation.  Being able to experience the full range of emotions makes one more able to appreciate attraction where it was repressed before.
At least that is my own experience.

Karen.

For me, it's that once I started thinking of myself as a woman with soft hairless skin, breasts, non-muscular, etc., then the idea of a muscular, hairy, bulky guy making love to me didn't seem so yucky or strange.

I should note that this happened BEFORE I took my first hormone pill. It was brought about by changes in the way I see myself.

All that being said, I have yet to find hairiness, muscles, bulk, or male genitalia in the slightest bit attractive. It's still the female form that I notice.

Quote from: JennX on February 08, 2013, 09:44:38 PM

It shouldn't matter. To people such as myself, and my close circle of friends, it makes no difference at all. People are people. Each different and unique. However to some (I guess those would be the ones mentioned above) it makes a huge issue, where IMHO there really is none at all... except of their own making.

I pass (hate that word btw) just fine now, and have for several years pre-HRT as well... but if I go out with a guy on a few dates, then decide to tell him I'm trans, guess what, if he gets mad, one of the first things he'll say is: "I'm not gay"... usually to which I respond... "neither am I". So? People have ingrained and intertwined the concepts of sex, gender, sexual orientation, and gender presentation for so long, it's hard for some to tell the difference between them. It really shouldn't be an issue, but for some, it is something they will never grasp.

I really think we have two problems here.

The first is that people generally seem to assume that almost any encounter between male and female is for sex. I recall, when the notion of gay liberation was being openly discussed in the early 70s, one of the problems that was cited by many was that young men would know if their male friends were just friends or wanted them for sex. 'Therefore, to allow homosexuals to practices their habits openly, as we currenly do with hetrosexuals will lead to the breakdown of society!'

You get the idea? It has a sort of rational to it and the greatest argument against is that it hasn't happened!

The second problem is what young men really want from a relationship form women. And at the risk of being labeled too cynical, I suggest that most young men want trophies. A conquest to tell their mates, 'I had that!'

Think about it, how many guys will openly say they had the local bike? (A young woman who gives it away to almost anyone).

Now I could point out that that girl, with the label, bike, is actually a nice, very intelegent girl, who enjoys sex and isn't too inhibited to say so! If the truth be told, most young hetro gwomen would love to be in her place but are just too scared of dealing with the label.

Now where does this leave you?

It means you need to be a bit mroe careful about who you pick up. If the guy seems more interested in his image and appearance than he is in you then that is what he is. (Can I use the term mommy's boy without sounding catty? No, OK, I won't say it!), but you get the idea?

Now, how does that sound? Better?

Quote from: spacial on February 09, 2013, 06:39:06 AM

Now where does this leave you?

It means you need to be a bit mroe careful about who you pick up. If the guy seems more interested in his image and appearance than he is in you then that is what he is. (Can I use the term mommy's boy without sounding catty? No, OK, I won't say it!), but you get the idea?

Now, how does that sound? Better?

Well you just about described 90% of all the men where I live (Miami, FL) lol.  ;D Most all of the guys here are way, way, way in to their appearance, almost as much as they are their cars. I try to stay away from the younger, buff, tatted, beach/gym guys... but those are exactly the ones who usually come up to me. If they live with their parents, don't have a job, their own place/car, etc. I don't even waste my time on them. The older guys really aren't much better either... but they at least take you to dinner at a nice restaurant or buy you something nice first. I have met a few decent ones, but not the one just yet.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 09:54:55 AM
Jennx

Perhaps the question should be, what is gender?

We have the someone dismissive, yet perfectly accurate, comments such as 'It's between the ears', but that isn't enough. It's been said, it's that simple, but it may simply be too simple.

We need a somehting that says what we mean by gender =/= sex.

hoo boy.  you did the thing.  you went ahead and asked the question.

yeah, what is gender?  it's definitely socially constructed, at least to some kind of degree.  some people have it.  some people don't have it.  some people have it so much that it overpowers other people's expectations of what it should be.  some people are so convinced of its danger that they campaign aggressively to obliterate it and deprive it of meaning.  others believe so much in its power that they are fight back just as aggressively in opposition, and while it seems like both of these groups can agree on the fact that equating gender to one's behavior (whether gendered expression or sexuality) is probably not appropriate, there's still a huge contingent of people in society at large who are perfectly happy to line up gender stuff and sexuality stuff as pretty much the same thing.

and on some level that all confuses me.  like, what even is gender?  what does it mean to be a woman, or a man, or neither?  what does it mean beyond declaring allegiance to some arbitrary group?  and why is that so often accompanied by the desire (or is it an expectation) to alter yourself to appear closer to the ideal of appearance in the group?  is it only because that's the only way for people in these groups to take otherwise-"outsiders" seriously?  that can't be the whole story either.  but then we get the fact that there's this strange intersection of people, those who want to change their bodies, those who want to fit in socially, and those who want both.  is that a gender/sex divide?  i mean, i'm inclined to say no, since i don't think either gender or sex is that simple, and, well, i don't really understand the existence of gender in the first place.  but then there's more to it than that, even.

i guess the greatest level on which i can understand gender is like this: the way i like and interact and am attracted to and have sex with girls as someone who's perceived as female is way different than the way it was as someone perceived as male.  being a straight dude just isn't the same as being a queer girl.  i don't act like the same person, i don't think like the same person, i don't feel like the same person.  and hell, i didn't start out transitioning finding asymmetrical haircuts and tattoos and piercings and conscious flouting of gender norms to be sexy.  i thought "those people" were weird, i thought they were rejecting their "natural beauty" or idk something stupid like that.  now i AM one of those people.  and i also find them all incredibly sexy!  the power of socialization is pretty strong.

so, all that said, i feel like gender and sexual preference are linked on some level though, like i constantly wonder to myself why it seems like a lot of trans people who've spent life in particular gender roles with particular gender expectations display the same sexual preferences after transition.  i said it before: the power of socialization is pretty strong.  like, why else are such a large percentage (up to 50% according to some estimates) of trans people attracted to the same sex?  that doesn't particularly sound like something that's entirely unlinked to gender or gender performance.  i think what we should be saying instead of that gender and sexual attraction are completely unrelated is that it doesn't MATTER what their relation is.  like, as if it's somehow bad to be a queer trans person, but our only solution is to deny there's any relationship and stick out our tongues and say "nuh-uh!"?  society's scared of the queers, scared that there are going to be more dykes and gay guys prowling the street and corrupting their children or whatever.  i think there's no point in pretending that they aren't related, but i do think there's a lot to be said for rejecting the notion that it illegitimizes us. 

we exist, regardless of our circumstances, and i think that's ok.

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
i guess the greatest level on which i can understand gender is like this: the way i like and interact and am attracted to and have sex with girls as someone who's perceived as female is way different than the way it was as someone perceived as male.  being a straight dude just isn't the same as being a queer girl.  i don't act like the same person, i don't think like the same person, i don't feel like the same person.  and hell, i didn't start out transitioning finding asymmetrical haircuts and tattoos and piercings and conscious flouting of gender norms to be sexy.  i thought "those people" were weird, i thought they were rejecting their "natural beauty" or idk something stupid like that.  now i AM one of those people.  and i also find them all incredibly sexy!  the power of socialization is pretty strong.

This is the thing that always weirds me out.  The changes.  It never meant to become a different person through transition, and maybe I haven't, but when I go back and see things I wrote pre-transition and hear recordings of me talking pre-transition, that person does not seem like me at all.  My thought processes are different, the language I use is much, much different, the things that I felt were important about any given subject were different, and none of that happened by any conscious effort.

In fact, it was very important to me for there to be continuity between the person I was when I presented male and the person I became when I started presenting female, because I always told myself that I had always been a girl/woman pretending to be a boy/man.  If transitioning into the female role changed who I am as a person, whether by social or chemical influence it doesn't matter, that seems to contradict my ideas somewhat and I have to question them.

As for what gender is and why we have it, that is a harder question to answer, I suspect because to explaining it in simple enough terms for most people to understand would be very reductionist.  Is there a biological aspect to gender?  Maybe, probably.  Is there a social construct aspect to it?  Absolutely.  Can there be even more to it?  Sure.  Can you be genderless?  Yeah.  Can you be both genders at once?  Totally.  Even if it were simply an interplay  between two factors-social and biological, even that is probably not nearly the simple dynamic we want it to be.

So many little imperceptible things affect how we frame things in our minds.  An anecdote, in another thread one person saw their need to transition as being a function of their gender, their innate femininity, while I see mine as a function of my sex, or my innate femaleness.  The reason the two of us have framed our need to transition so differently seemed to at least possibly be a result of her being 5'5" and my being 6'2".  All the ways our height affected how our lives went and which parts of our selves that we had the greatest adversarial relationship with.  Meanwhile something in our minds, imprinted on our brains was telling us the same thing, you need to be a woman, you can never be a man.

I'm sure none of that makes a lot of sense, but I think my point is that gender, like sexual orientation is super complicated and is super prone to being conflated with other things, which only adds to the confusion.  And maybe the link is not a conflation, maybe it's real, and that only makes it even harder to understand.

In the end, we can think it to death, but does it really matter?  Do we really need to deconstruct it into all it's individual parts so we can hopefully understand how it's put together?  Our analytical side may say yes.  Maybe there is value in doing that FOR SCIENCE!  But on a personal level, where the rubber hits the road, isn't the whole point to be happy, or at least for that emotion to be available to us?  If transition, if being attracted to whomever, gets us there, that is the only thing that matters, isn't it?

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
i said it before: the power of socialization is pretty strong.  like, why else are such a large percentage (up to 50% according to some estimates) of trans people attracted to the same sex?  that doesn't particularly sound like something that's entirely unlinked to gender or gender performance.  i think what we should be saying instead of that gender and sexual attraction are completely unrelated is that it doesn't MATTER what their relation is.  like, as if it's somehow bad to be a queer trans person, but our only solution is to deny there's any relationship and stick out our tongues and say "nuh-uh!"? 

Until fairly recently, trans people (at least transitioning ones) tended to be MTF in the majority... that's only recently flip-flopped, but I would tend to assume that most published studies you've seen are skewed in part by that imbalance (which I tend to see as socially driven on several different levels, rather than anything intrinsic, though there may also be the factor that, MTFs were so much the focus until very recently, that it's likely many of those living today, who are likely to seek transition, are either already seeking it, or have done as much as they intend to).

It's not entirely clear what you mean by attracted to the same sex, but I'm going to assume that you mean the same sex that they identify themselves as). 

Here's my take on this, mostly based on my conversations with friends over time... that, women and girls I knew in high school and college were much more open about, at the very least, bisexual feelings, than men. I know some of that is probably a result of homophobia that is mainly directed at male couples and individuals. Also, to face these issues at all, one has to make some sort of peace with the likelihood that one will be perceived as gay/lesbian at some point, even those who are attracted to opposite sexes on both sides of transition probably will have to face that, if only from strangers who make assumptions.

Given that we do tend to be forced into facing it, perhaps the answer is that we find ourselves in a place where we've already had to deal with social disapproval from at least some people, so searching our hearts and libidos for what actually works for us isn't such a stretch for most?

There are cultures in history where same-sex encounters and relationships, even, were not seen in the same way that they have been since the late 19th century. Too big a subject to go into in detail, but if you're interested, the studies on that stuff can be fascinating.

Sorry if I'm not yet responding specifically to some of what spacial was raising, though I think those issues probably deserve their own thread.

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 03:47:35 PM
In fact, it was very important to me for there to be continuity between the person I was when I presented male and the person I became when I started presenting female, because I always told myself that I had always been a girl/woman pretending to be a boy/man.  If transitioning into the female role changed who I am as a person, whether by social or chemical influence it doesn't matter, that seems to contradict my ideas somewhat and I have to question them.

Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary? There are many ways I've tried to be myself, through adopting fairly heavy androgyny, for example, but in the end it really hasn't put a dent in my dysphoria in some ways.

One part of that (which I eventually managed to express to a therapist) is just simply that I look at myself, and I try, no matter what, to see feminine features. I find, for instance, that something as simple as wearing a bra and breast forms to bed (to sleep) is very comforting to me, and not doing so leads to restlessness and sometimes distress.

But the other part is that need to be seen by others, and to have as close as possible full permission to express myself as female in whatever way appeals to me, which is not something that is really possible without some serious social conflict in many situations in daily life.  That part is socially defined. I suspect if we could go back in time to, say, a pre-Columbian Hopi tribe, their transgen members would be called women with less conflict and condescension than we tend to see when someone today is identified as trans.

Quote from: spacial on February 08, 2013, 03:53:15 PM
Well no, that isn't the point at all.

We, especially on Susans' but I think in the transgender community generally, have come to separate gender from sex, by the rather simple (simplistic) device of, Sex is between the legs and gender  between the ears.

Yet for most, sex and gender are almost synonymous. Perhaps with the exception of a sex act itself.

Beyond that, the cross over, for most, would seem to be almsot taken for granted. Yet we take for granted that they are tow entirely different things.

If we are to avoid making ourselves into a secret society, we really need to address this issue.

What exactly do we mean by gender?

This is an interesting set of questions, but since the context in this thread was, in fact, about sexuality, not about sex identity or secondary sex characteristics, perhaps we should address the issues you raise in a separate thread?

I'll warn you in advance that my own view on this is that we don't really know the distinction that well, and that what was once the general opinion on it, seems, at the very least, like it might be mistaken, at least to some degree.  Our sense of our own gender identity has to come from somewhere... we get into a lot of unresolved issues, though, when we try to pin that down, at least when we try to tease out what parts are physical and what parts are by products of society, conditioning and so on (since those things can have physical effects as well).

But I think this is a subject for a thread that's not mainly about orientation issues.

Quote from: Elspeth on February 09, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary?

When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 02:13:27 PM
hoo boy.  you did the thing.  you went ahead and asked the question.

yeah, what is gender?  it's definitely socially constructed, at least to some kind of degree.  some people have it.  some people don't have it. 

If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:29:43 PM

Quote from: Elspeth on February 09, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
Isn't this in fact one of the primary reasons that many of us (maybe most?) find transition necessary?

When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?

Well as you know, I'm pretty sure my post-transition behavioral changes are pathological and not innate. What sort of changes are you talking about, hon?

Quote from: spacial on February 09, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?

Where do you draw that line though?  How can we be sure that some of the behaviors or traits we call feminine or masculine weren't imprinted on our brains at birth?  And how can we know that somebody else might have a trait imprinted at birth that we only picked up through socialization?

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 04:55:15 PM
When I start feeling like I've become a different person though, I feel strange about that.  If I really was a woman all along, and that was the reason I had to transition, why would doing so change me into somebody else?  Not that there are no common threads connecting who I was then and who I am now, cause there's a bunch, but just that so many of them, so many that feel like fundamental aspects of my self seem to have been severed in the process.  Standing here looking back I am glad for most of them because they help me fit into society as a female better, and that makes my life easier and simpler than it would have otherwise been.  But if I had known it would happen before I started transition, well it wouldn't have stopped me, but I don't think I would have been thrilled about it.

Estrogen surely had some affect, but to whatever extent these changes come from going through a process of re-socialization in a different gender role and/or just how different everything seems/is when it is being framed from the vantage of a different sex is probably the extent to which gender really is just smoke and mirrors.  Cause would there be any changes occurring in your mind from transition, aside from hormonal affects, if this all was biologically innate?


Well as you know, I'm pretty sure my post-transition behavioral changes are pathological and not innate. What sort of changes are you talking about, hon?

Well recently a couple things happened, I listened to some old recordings of myself talking and then I accidentally came across something I had written prior to transition.  I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago.  When I think about things that make a person fundamentally themselves, the first things that come to mind is how they think about things, what things do they find interesting, how do they communicate those thoughts.  These things have changed for me so much so that I don't recognize myself of even a few years ago as being the person I am now.  It makes me feel strange, I'm not gonna lie.

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 05:06:50 PM

Well recently a couple things happened, I listened to some old recordings of myself talking and then I accidentally came across something I had written prior to transition.  I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago.  When I think about things that make a person fundamentally themselves, the first things that come to mind is how they think about things, what things do they find interesting, how do they communicate those thoughts.  These things have changed for me so much so that I don't recognize myself of even a few years ago as being the person I am now.  It makes me feel strange, I'm not gonna lie.

Ok how did that person think and use language differently?

I think sometimes we get so stuck on the trans thing, we forget that people are... you know, complicated. All people. Like if I asked my sister if she's anything like who she was 5 years ago, she'd say "hell, no" just as strongly as I would. People change over time through their experiences. And transition is a pretty massive experience. Think like what being in a war zone does to a person, or living through cancer or having their kid die... There are a ton of things that can happen in a person's life to massively reshape their personality in a short time.

I'd be kind of concerned if you managed to go through transition and didn't change. THAT would be pretty strange.

Quote from: Sarah7 on February 09, 2013, 05:18:17 PM
I'd be kind of concerned if you managed to go through transition and didn't change. THAT would be pretty strange.

Not to mention impossible, since transition means change. Badum tsh!  :P

Thanks Sarah, I think you are probably right.  I think it's just the rapidity of the change that has been disturbing, but considering how much my life was turned on it's head in recent years, it probably makes sense?

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 04:57:24 PM
Where do you draw that line though?  How can we be sure that some of the behaviors or traits we call feminine or masculine weren't imprinted on our brains at birth?  And how can we know that somebody else might have a trait imprinted at birth that we only picked up through socialization?

I don't think we should or even tolerate it.

But since it is the transgender community who have created the separation, then it would seem relevant to be able to identify what it is we are talking about.

I will go along with your notion but emphasise it by saying that Gender refers to behaviours, attitudes and reactions which society generally associates with being either male or female.

The feminists probably will hate it, so there's a plus!  ;D

How does that seem to people here?

I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 06:41:34 PM
I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?

I get it. How can we ever separate biological from conditioned traits? Don't think we can. I kind of see 'biology' as a person's potential. But clearly our experiences shape us. And we probably react differently to those experiences based on biology/other factors.

For instance, I'm pretty sure a fairly minor thing impacted me and my future a great deal. If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.

Yes I think little things can change a person's life in such unexpected ways.  It's kind of annoying in a way, especially when it creates unwelcome change.

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 06:41:34 PM
I don't mean to say women are innately one way or anything like that, because I don't believe that at all.  I just mean that we don't know exactly how any of these things are connected to another, or if they even are, and trying to simplify it may mean creating an inaccurate picture of things... if that makes sense?

I suggest we don't even try. As Admin point out, we probably can't. But more importantly, we simply don't need to.

We are a group unitied by a common goal of dealing with gender identity problems. whatever their cause, whatever the objectives, whatever the outcomes.

And frankly, we are not such a large group, as transgender, to make any difference.

But I think it is useful to have a reasoned definition of what we mean by gender as opposed to sex, simply because it is central to our common issue.

Gender refers to behaviours, attitudes and reactions which society generally associates with being either male or female.

Quote from: spacial on February 09, 2013, 04:50:01 PM
If we take gender as the social construct, the style of behaviour and living, normally associated with one gender or the other?

That neatly separates gender from sex and provides us with a framework which we can address rather than simply allude to.

How does that seem?

i guess, but it still leaves me confused as to what gender really is.

butch girls aren't male-gendered.  what does it mean to be a woman when there are literally three and a half billion ways to be one?  is there ANYthing women all have in common?  anything men have in common?  if not, how do we even begin to start finding a definition for womanhood, or manhood, or any other terminology relating to gender?

Quote from: Jen on February 09, 2013, 05:06:50 PM
I found myself confronted with somebody that felt very unfamiliar to me- in how their thoughts were constructed, the words they used to describe those thoughts, the points they felt were the most relevant to talk about, and how they went about making those points.  Yet that person was me of several years ago. 

I'm not sure this is similar or relevant, but I remember showing my ex something once from when I was still invested in Mormonism. Granted, it was something I had written in a kind of journal inside my Book of Remembrance (a binder people usually keep their genealogical records in), and was part of something from when I had been the appointed student leader of my seminary class, so it bore a lot of marks from the linguistic habits and cliches of Mormon communication, particularly whenever they think another Mormon might be listening.

It was pretty dreadful and filled with what seemed by then (at least 8 years later) something that felt to me like a foreign person (and one who was way too confident and judgmental).  By that time I'd gone through a different kind of transformation in thinking and in being with people who thought and spoke in very different ways from some of the mantras that I'd grown up with, and that I can still hear whenever I visit sites populated mainly by Mormons, or visit Utah and see some of my more distant relatives (most of my immediate family members have left the Church, and those who haven't done so are very aware that bringing it up is generally not a good idea in my parents' house, at least).

I'm sure hormones will affect my thinking profoundly, though I have no idea how. If they don't, in some ways I suppose I will wind up feeling somehow cheated, if I really do not discover anything new or find that I'm communicating differently. And I do wonder this a fair bit, since it's been at least since the early 1990s that I tended, except when I get too long-winded or give into my overly analytical habits, to be assumed female online.  Some of that happened even before I felt compelled to come out to my then-spouse more clearly, and in fact was one of the triggers for my beginning to seek contact with other transwomen.  Some of it may have been based on the interests I developed in college... my advisor was a co-founder of the Women's Studies program at my college, and the courses I took from her (only one, actually, an Intro Poetry class that led to my becoming an English major) was one of the most deeply influential to my thinking on many different levels, particularly in terms of looking at the writing of others with empathy rather than fault-finding. At the very least, one could say she led to my being read as a woman in many settings, when there was nothing else to indicate my gender.

Still, I definitely hope there are other changes to come, since I don't really want to keep thinking the way I have been, and I worry that perhaps little or even nothing might change about that, which would almost throw into question the wisdom of taking that course.  Then again, to me it does seem that so much of the motivation is physical, is about the problem of connecting with people when I am assumed to be male, or assumed to think like one, and assumed to want things that men are expected to want. I've tried very hard to develop a sense of humor about that, or to counter with corrections when someone assumes I want something or am driven in some way they just assume to be commonplace. And sometimes that works for me, but it also remains stressful and an incentive for avoiding people and avoiding physical or visual contact, which is clearly very limiting.

The nail in the coffin, so to speak, seemed to be the encounter recently with the guy who had been playing footsie with me for roughly a year, and the utter boredom I felt somewhere during his second visit, when it became clear to me that he couldn't express what he wanted, and wasn't capable of hearing what I wanted, or bothering to ask, or show much openness when I tried to ask things... I think I also scared him by bringing out my toys. But who can say, when he wouldn't really say anything?

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.

Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?

Quote from: transtrender on February 09, 2013, 08:09:27 PM
i guess, but it still leaves me confused as to what gender really is.

butch girls aren't male-gendered.  what does it mean to be a woman when there are literally three and a half billion ways to be one?  is there ANYthing women all have in common?  anything men have in common?  if not, how do we even begin to start finding a definition for womanhood, or manhood, or any other terminology relating to gender?

OK, so we we have a point where we refer to behaviors associated with male and female. You rightly pointed out that it is still incomplete. We need to define what it is we mean.

There is certainly nothing, in this context, that males or females have in common. That is after all, why we are here!!

But what is socio-typical behaviour for males and females? I think if we start here with tendencies rather than actualities.

Quote from: spacial on February 10, 2013, 04:21:44 AM

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 09, 2013, 06:54:24 PM
If I had been accepted by girls (hell if I had even had female friends), I wouldn't be the person I am today. In more ways than one. I most likely wouldn't have the social anxiety I do, I probably would have been better socialized, and I may not have turned to men. Course I'd still have had GID, but I doubt I would have the issues I have.

Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?

Well, some of it probably. When I was little (before girls actively started hating me) girls would invite me to sleepovers (well every girl in class was invited) and it was just really awkward. I just couldn't relate to them or anything. And I was so uncomfortable, I asked to go home. I did have one female friend in my whole life - it was love at first at 7 years old (for me anyway).

But I felt so bad that girls hated me that I used to cry over having no female friends. So, it wasn't like I didn't want them. They were just terrible to me. (Nothing physical though.) Made worse because I couldn't understand them. And I seemed to have some innate resistance to hitting or even saying something mean to girls. The idea of fighting back against a girl didn't even occur to me (though boys certainly got it if they tried to join in).
So I had no defense. They saw right through me and hated what they saw. And this didn't just happen in school. It later happened in the workplace as an adult. So, not just a bunch of bullying children. Grown women did this to me as well.

So, probably my issues with women (any female other than my mother that is) are both biological and conditioned. I don't much like it either. I have this deep need to be loved and accepted by women.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 05:43:54 AM
Do you think perhaps, your inability to make female friends was part of what you innately are, rather than what made you this way?


Well, some of it probably. When I was little (before girls actively started hating me) girls would invite me to sleepovers (well every girl in class was invited) and it was just really awkward. I just couldn't relate to them or anything. And I was so uncomfortable, I asked to go home. I did have one female friend in my whole life - it was love at first at 7 years old (for me anyway).

But I felt so bad that girls hated me that I used to cry over having no female friends. So, it wasn't like I didn't want them. They were just terrible to me. (Nothing physical though.) Made worse because I couldn't understand them. And I seemed to have some innate resistance to hitting or even saying something mean to girls. The idea of fighting back against a girl didn't even occur to me (though boys certainly got it if they tried to join in).
So I had no defense. They saw right through me and hated what they saw. And this didn't just happen in school. It later happened in the workplace as an adult. So, not just a bunch of bullying children. Grown women did this to me as well.

So, probably my issues with women (any female other than my mother that is) are both biological and conditioned. I don't much like it either. I have this deep need to be loved and accepted by women.

You see, what I know of my own experiences which were spookly similar to yours, though with a rather more male type emphasis, I tried so very hard to become involved in what they were doing, but was simply not interested.

It wasn't that some sports hero or some war game wasn't in itself interesting, the boys seemed to be using the conversation, their knowledge of the subject, the force they used to pursue it, as a means of asserting themselves.

For the life of me, I just couldn't find any interest or motivation to assert myself with them. They just didn't interest me at all. Their competitiveness seemed so pointless.

I can't say that girls by comparison were so much more interesting because by that time, I was disconnected from them.

Now that for me was then and is now an indication that I was innately not like them. But others, teachers as such, tended to see it as my arrogance. (Being foreign didn't help of course. But it was more an excuse for them than me).

I am just understanding how you see the problems originating from nurture. That if the other girls had not been so nasty, for whatever reasons, then you may not have been so unsuccessful, socially.

I'm wondering if the problem may have been somewhat more becuase of transgender. That transgender is innate, not a consequence of experiences.

How doe you feel about that?

Quote from: spacial on February 10, 2013, 06:06:56 AM
I am just understanding how you see the problems originating from nurture. That if the other girls had not been so nasty, for whatever reasons, then you may not have been so unsuccessful, socially.

I'm wondering if the problem may have been somewhat more because of transgender. That transgender is innate, not a consequence of experiences.

How doe you feel about that?

Oh most definitely, I believe my ->-bleeped-<- is innate. I'm just saying the social issues I have are nurture. Partly anyway. I also believe this is why the girls acted the way they did. Because I had no 'gender variant' appearance. I didn't try to look like a boy or butch or anything. I did nothing to my hair, just left it long. And even trying to wear makeup and 'style my hair' made no difference. Girls still hated me. It was just my personality, my behavior, my being that offended them so. I was a 'hairy man'.

So, yeah females have nothing to do with my being trans. But they are the most likely cause of many of my other issues. I wasn't bullied or abused by males, so it's about the girls/women. And I was never abused sexually or otherwise, so there's no big cause why I'm like this.
I just think I would have developed differently, and probably been a different person with (nonrelative) females in my life. From what I read, this is common in cis men with severe social problems. Lack of positive experiences with females takes its toll.

I'm not bitter about it. It is what it is.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 10, 2013, 06:54:23 AM
Oh most definitely, I believe my ->-bleeped-<- is innate. I'm just saying the social issues I have are nurture. Partly anyway. I also believe this is why the girls acted the way they did. Because I had no 'gender variant' appearance. I didn't try to look like a boy or butch or anything. I did nothing to my hair, just left it long. And even trying to wear makeup and 'style my hair' made no difference. Girls still hated me. It was just my personality, my behavior, my being that offended them so. I was a 'hairy man'.

So, yeah females have nothing to do with my being trans. But they are the most likely cause of many of my other issues. I wasn't bullied or abused by males, so it's about the girls/women. And I was never abused sexually or otherwise, so there's no big cause why I'm like this.
I just think I would have developed differently, and probably been a different person with (nonrelative) females in my life. From what I read, this is common in cis men with severe social problems. Lack of positive experiences with females takes its toll.

I'm not bitter about it. It is what it is.

I understand what you're saying.  It really is quite spooky how similar that socialisation experience was.

I did often wonder to what extent I was choosing to be effeminate.

I also didn't look particularly effeminate, at least I don't think I did. I certainly didn't have much choice over my hair style or my clothes. My hair was short and my clothes were rough and smelly.

But I was aware that my personality less competitive, somewhat more intrusive if you like. Boys just seemed to see it as a bit weird, while girls tended to see it as over friendly as if I was taking liberities, assuming I was after physical intimacy.

As I said, I wondered, but for the life of me, couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be doing.

Quote from: spacial on February 10, 2013, 07:30:47 AM
But I was aware that my personality less competitive, somewhat more intrusive if you like. Boys just seemed to see it as a bit weird, while girls tended to see it as over friendly as if I was taking liberities, assuming I was after physical intimacy.

I suppose I was very fortunate in that my mom (who did my hair throughout my teens) was not judgmental, and after a little bit of family friction I was wearing mine shoulder length and blow-dried from mid-teens onward, at least. I was also very prissy about clothes, and rarely if ever wore jeans. There's little doubt in my mind that most people saw me as effeminate, though now I try to use the word "feminine" rather than accept the value judgments implicit in that other word.

I tend to think that the likelihood that most of my female friends assumed I was gay had a lot to do with being able to interact with most of them with little or no sexual tension entering much into our interactions. I actually was sexually interested in several of them, but when I read accounts from lesbians describing their teens, my experience seems to resemble theirs in many cases, though I suspect, had I been cislesbian, some of those friendships might have become more intimate and sexual.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 09, 2013, 06:13:48 AM
For me, it's that once I started thinking of myself as a woman with soft hairless skin, breasts, non-muscular, etc., then the idea of a muscular, hairy, bulky guy making love to me didn't seem so yucky or strange.

I should note that this happened BEFORE I took my first hormone pill. It was brought about by changes in the way I see myself.

All that being said, I have yet to find hairiness, muscles, bulk, or male genitalia in the slightest bit attractive. It's still the female form that I notice.

I can totally identify with this, as I feel the same way. When thinking about myself in girl mode, I can see myself returning male affection even if I can't see myself seeking it out.

Quote from: JenSquid on February 16, 2013, 11:25:24 PM
I can totally identify with this, as I feel the same way. When thinking about myself in girl mode, I can see myself returning male affection even if I can't see myself seeking it out.

I guess, whatever outward appearances might have been (and I was never muscular or hairy, apart from wearing hair long) that I never really saw myself in "boy mode." But in any case, this describes my experience fairly well. I've returned affections when they've been offered politely. I felt like I mastered a kind of dismissive stare that I also seemed to feel many girls used to deflect those attentions that were less than polite or respectful. I assumed these were probably meant to humiliate, though I did often wonder whether at least a few of them, especially those from some of the more insecure jocks, were not actually simply very badly expressed statements of actual desire. I never did, and never expect I will seek out attention from men, and I'm leaving any definite statements aside on this until the day (if it ever happens) that I feel I am being read as clearly female.

Part of me wonders whether that won't be in another lifetime (I did once do a past lives regression thing that had me fairly convinced that this is either my first or one of very few incarnations in a male body).  I'm usually not much into that, and I am a skeptic, so if anyone feels compelled to say something dismissive, please save yourself the effort.

A further reflection... I think one of the main things that drove me and my ex apart, at least in terms of miscommunications, and something that led to me shutting down emotionally, expressively, was her automatic dismissal of things when I would try to express some of this.

For her, it might have been the mis-impression that by talking about my experience of having men come onto me, it activated insecurities that she would not voice directly, for instance, the assumption that because I wanted her to understand that part of my experience, I might be suggesting either that I wanted a guy, or wanted to open the marriage up to include sex with men, when what I was seeking was just a recognition that this was, had been, and still was a part of my experience. (One of the triggers for my depression, the one that led to Celexa and a hospitalization for several weeks) was that once I was at a more attractive weight, I was starting, again, to get flirting looks from men on a regular basis, looks I'm fairly sure were expressions of sexual interest, or perhaps guys wondering what I was doing with a woman.

She was also insecure about her own attractiveness, admitted that being as assertive as she was, as blatantly flirty, that up until we got together her experience had been that men would be friends, or act like big brothers (she was a little sister to one of the more "Animal House" frats (in fact they were the Delta somethings) during college -- anyway, until we met (She 21, me 24) none of her flirtations had become sexual, with the impression that this was not by her choice.

Not sure what I'm even getting at with this, except that personal histories can be funny in un-funny ways, and partners can sometimes respond in ways that are more than a little frustrating. Granted, I must have sensed this would be a hot button issue for her, or I wouldn't have avoided bringing it up for more than 16 years of our time together.

But I brought it up because I wanted to be seen for my own history, and the reaction, rejection and re-interpretations were something that left me stunned in some ways, and also led to a huge drop in my conviction that we were able to communicate clearly about almost anything.  This kind of dynamic was something, in the later years of the relationship, that had a big part in my tendency to shut down... it also was made worse in some ways by therapy, where I was talking about these things in depth and detail, and gradually making myself clearer, but I was doing it with the wrong person.

My ex had found the therapist I was going to, and towards the end she began to say things that left me thinking that she thought I was attracted to him, when I would only be mentioning him in context as I tried to bring up things with her that I wanted to have in the open. My therapist was not much of a fan of openness, and frankly did not seem to get the fact that I needed to be seen on my terms, or at least have my sense of identity out in the open... pretty odd when you consider he was a gay man in a very long-term, publicly visible relationship with his partner that was, apart from children, no less a marriage than mine.