Hah, I suppose that you think I screwed up and started a post in the wrong forum, not so. Orihime made a comment in another forum thread that is so absolutely right on the money which set me to thinking about how you all need some encouragement to be the real you. You may know that I have had chats with more than a few FtM friends here at Susan's and am a friend to most everyone so I'd like to put a challenge forward to all of you concerning using the men's room.
We all know how intimidating using "the other bathroom" can be for everyone but I'd like to see you FtM guys get some kahones and quit quaking in your shoes over this and just give it a shot and go into the men's room and do your stuff and leave. It will be a huge confidence builder for you no matter what and something you will have to overcome and do eventually anyway. No-one's going to look at you or even acknowledge your presence. Trust me on this, it just isn't done. I still use men's rooms because I still present primarily as androgynous male and walk in with these rockets on my chest in my underwire bra under my T shirt which accentuates it and no-one has ever said a word to me, I have not been beat up. If you want to use the stall no-one will notice. See my link below and you'll have to admit to yourself that there is absolutely no difference between me and any pre-op FtM. Cis men just have this stupid phobia about not talking to or even making eye contact with anyone in the john. You are totally safe!
maybe I'll go find a mens room in the darkest most desolate corner of the library where I'm sure to run into no one. Does that defeat the purpose? ;D
My cahones need to grow a bit more but occasionally they appear and I go in there without so much as a nervous look around. Never got a single look- again, for some reason I magically pass to some people irl and then don't to others. Need to get that down without setting off the trans alarm in my house somehow :-\
Someday said cahones shall drop and then I will be a man and use the right bathroom in school. O, frabjous day...
Edit: Lol just noticed that.
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think this kind of a thread is entirely appropriate. Just my opinion, but I feel like I would be a little put off if I was reading your post as a member of its target audience.
Quote from: encircle me on February 13, 2013, 08:57:42 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think this kind of a thread is entirely appropriate. Just my opinion, but I feel like I would be a little put off if I was reading your post as a member of its target audience.
I certainly don't mind it, and I do need encouragement honestly. My therapist (who is trans herself) was gently encouraging me to do the same thing this past week. There is no way to transition if you don't leave your little bubble of comfort at some point. The key is to do it in little manageable steps, and stay realistic. Which is why I fully intend to find a completely abandoned mens room first...
Luckily it didn't take.me long.to.start.using the men's room and that's all I ever use now. I don't mind using the men's in places like restrants and for instance Walmart or any department store or mall. My only issue is when I go to places like bars. If the bathroom has more than on toilet and an actual stall for privacy I'm good. The one place I went too had a urinal and a toilet in one room (no seperate divider or privacy) and the door didn't lock, so right when I was about to do my business a drunk guy walked in. Luckily I got everything situated before he saw anything. Otherwise I have have complete confidence in the men's room and was even chatting with some guys who were talking about how the one guy puked his brains out. I was only 3 months on T at the time too. No one questioned me and I was completely accepted. I thing alot of guys work themselves up about it. I realize though it can be scary at first.
I'll give it a shot tomorrow (if I remember tomorrow....). I've been in the men's room before, but it's been many years, so it'll be good to try again.
I was worried about it when I came to Japan, but when I tried to use the lady's because I was only three months on T, an old woman stopped me and said I was in the wrong bathroom. When I apologized she told me to be careful, lest someone think I'm a pervert and call the cops. So, I use the men's room now, when I have to. I hate public bathrooms in general so I try to avoid them. But if I gotta go, I just waltz in. I just a few stares, but I think its because I'm more of a "pretty boy" coupled with being a foreigner. I even used a men's room at Seatac airport and no one batted an eyelash. One guy gave me a funny look but I just shrugged and he didn't say anything.
Quote from: encircle me on February 13, 2013, 08:57:42 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think this kind of a thread is entirely appropriate. Just my opinion, but I feel like I would be a little put off if I was reading your post as a member of its target audience.
Actually I appreciate her post, because it got me thinking. I've been using men's bathrooms for two years and in all that time I've never been looked at by another dude. Nobody has ever said a word to me, even when I was only using stalls and sitting down in them. Guys just go in to do their business and get out. Women on the other hand--going to the bathroom is a social event for them. There's talking, sharing of supplies, complete strangers may strike up conversations, they spend longer in there, in front of the mirror, sinks, whatever. If there's a girl in the guy's room I don't think it'd be a huge deal... but if there's a guy in the girl's room that is a WAY different story. If you are passing, and especially if you are on T and have a deep voice and are still using the women's bathroom, it's time to stop that. You are going to make them uncomfortable. They will notice you, and they may escalate the situation if they feel intimidated.
I didn't take any offense. I am not sure I have cahones, esp if I leave them at home. I don't even begin to pass. However it's a good point. My therapist is also a transguy and says that I could go in right now and no one would bat an eye. The only ones I have used are single stalls. I think there may be a bit more of a concern for us as we knows how women are in bathrooms. I know it is not that way, but it is hard to get over it as it is quite socialized in a lot of us.
--Jay
I'll confirm what's already been said. If you go in a mens room, and pay no attention to anyone, they won't pay any attention to you. The whole experience is about getting in and getting out fast with no interactions.
Quote from: encircle me on February 13, 2013, 08:57:42 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think this kind of a thread is entirely appropriate. Just my opinion, but I feel like I would be a little put off if I was reading your post as a member of its target audience.
I agree. I find it highly inappropriate.
While I understand your intentions OP. Encouraging lads who feel they are not ready to do this is dangerous. Using the mens restroom is a larger step than many may be ready to face.
A man who feels uncomfortable or is giving the body language that he is out of place will indeed bring attention to him and as we all well know there are many people who won't just turn a blind eye to it.
Not yet. I'll have to wait until my voice starts to drop before doing this. That way I'll be able to defend my right to use the gents' if I'm challenged. I can't do that at the moment because of my ridiculous girly voice.
Gender Dysphoria is difficult enough to cope with without being given uphill for using the 'wrong' bathroom when you're not yet able to back up your right to use it. Until I can, it's the 'family room' for me.
Quote from: Yossarian on February 14, 2013, 12:04:12 AM
While I understand your intentions OP. Encouraging lads who feel they are not ready to do this is dangerous. Using the mens restroom is a larger step than many may be ready to face.
A man who feels uncomfortable or is giving the body language that he is out of place will indeed bring attention to him and as we all well know there are many people who won't just turn a blind eye to it.
I didn't think she was trying to encourage anyone who wasn't ready, only people who are on the fence.
People just need to use some common sense in deciding what is right for them; if you put yourself in a dangerous situation merely because someone says "I think you should try this", there's probably a lot of other things that person needs to worry about.
I didn't think we needed to put a disclaimer on all of our posts saying "Do not attempt this if you feel uncomfortable. Do not put yourself in a dangerous situation."
I've been bothered by people for being in the men's room. It was not a fun experience. I will say that it's unlikely that anything major will happen (getting beaten up, or having the cops called).
Quote from: ford on February 13, 2013, 08:54:45 PM
maybe I'll go find a mens room in the darkest most desolate corner of the library where I'm sure to run into no one. Does that defeat the purpose? ;D
Each has to make their own decision about it. Am I going to be a man or a sissy? :)
Well, I just used the men's room. ;D No problems, just in and out. No one even seemed to notice me there.
---------------------
BTW, what are you supposed to do if all the stalls are occupied? Just stand there and look at your phone or something?
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 14, 2013, 08:15:04 AM
Well, I just used the men's room. ;D No problems, just in and out. No one even seemed to notice me there.
---------------------
Good job guy...kudos! :eusa_clap:
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 14, 2013, 08:15:04 AM
BTW, what are you supposed to do if all the stalls are occupied? Just stand there and look at your phone or something?
No I'd go back out, some guys seem to take up semi-permanent residence in the stall, some even read the newspaper on the throne. No sense in waiting, you want to limit your exposure anyway.
I am late in getting to repond. I think this is a good thread. One does need to be ready to use the mens and be confident when they do. I have been using the mens in public places for over a year. I admit the first time was a bit unknown but it has always been a positive experience. Go in do your business and get out, not alot of looking around, checking how you look in the mirror, etc. When possible I like to use restrooms that aren't real busy, but have been in them in big crowds sports parks, etc. I always use a stall as I haven't mastered a STP at all and having never seen anyone look at me strangely. I am going to an university and started in girl mode briefly so a few students know me from then. I try to use the men's in buildings where I am not likely to meet students that know me; this does require some planning at times as it takes me at least 15 min to make a round trip. I wouldn't know how to use the womne's anymore and would probably get asked to leave.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 14, 2013, 08:15:04 AM
BTW, what are you supposed to do if all the stalls are occupied? Just stand there and look at your phone or something?
You can causally wash your hands without making eye contact at anyone and hope one gets vacated in the meantime. And then walk out if it doesn't and come back in a bit.
Using the men's room should be far less intimidating for an FtM guy considering what we now know about typical cis male behavior in public restrooms. On the other hand it can be very intimidating and quickly become pretty dicey for a MtF in the woman's restroom just because of the normal female chattiness and the gatherings around the sink and mirror like we have talked about. You guys can count your blessings on that issue because I assure you there is very little to fear. Hope you all can muster up the courage and just be all you can be as you clear this hurtle. I'm here to offer everyone encouragement rather than criticism.
Quote from: peky on February 14, 2013, 11:50:09 AM
I think that as person and as individual it is important to be "challenge" every know and then, as this more often than not forces us to grow.
Now, it does not matter what you say and how you say it, there is always going to be a group of individuals who take offense on everything and anything one says.
So true, and then it also helps to know some of the FtM folks as friends and be able to commiserate in their hopes and fears and share dreams and tears offering some insights from my side of the fence and a lifetime of experience that may be helpful just as they often share things that I am grateful to know about. Not all of us live in a vacuum.
Quote from: Shantel on February 14, 2013, 08:06:23 AM
Each has to make their own decision about it. Am I going to be a man or a sissy? :)
Not being ready to use the men's room doesn't make one a sissy. I don't think it's appropriate to come into a board for trans men and try to tell us that we aren't men because we aren't ready to do something yet, possibly out of fear for personal safety.
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on February 14, 2013, 04:06:25 PM
Not being ready to use the men's room doesn't make one a sissy. I don't think it's appropriate to come into a board for trans men and try to tell us that we aren't men because we aren't ready to do something yet, possibly out of fear for personal safety.
I'm trying to be helpful and encourage those who are ready but are overly apprehensive. I'm not here to engage anyone in a contentious argument. It's clear to me that you have a problem with an MtF making comments on an FtM forum, something you will have to deal with in your own heart, because neither I or any of the MtF folks seem to object to comments on MtF threads by FtM's and often consider them to be positive input. I have been posting off and on here at Susan's since 2004 and understand a lot of issues on both sides of the fence. Hope your day gets better!
Well, either way I am happy for the post, I've now used the men's room twice today, and I am def going to continue on at least in certain places. It's so much better than the ladies' room, I could actualy wash my hands without standing around waiting for a free sink! :D
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 14, 2013, 05:38:05 PM
Well, either way I am happy for the post, I've now used the men's room twice today, and I am def going to continue on at least in certain places. It's so much better than the ladies' room, I could actualy wash my hands without standing around waiting for a free sink! :D
You broke through a barrier that wasn't so tough after all, it's a big step though congratulations! :eusa_clap:
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on February 14, 2013, 04:06:25 PM
Not being ready to use the men's room doesn't make one a sissy. I don't think it's appropriate to come into a board for trans men and try to tell us that we aren't men because we aren't ready to do something yet, possibly out of fear for personal safety.
It's a board for trans mens
topics, anyone who has access to this section is entitled to post here.
From TOS Rule #7:
"If someone wishes to discuss a subject that you are not interested in, suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion. If you feel a person's post violates the rules of this site use the report this post function."
Shantel deserves an apology out of you, in my estimation.
Well, you don't need to have a penis to use a urinal. If you're penile-challenged, just remember this one tip: spread your legs, lean back slightly, and thrust. :icon_pelvic_thrust2:
***(Just make sure no one's around, in case someone tries to look.)***
Don't be scared. Trust me, guys don't talk to each other in the bathroom. They're like Navy SEALs. Get in, get out. Fast. :P
While I will agree that most men will not talk to "strangers" in the restroom they will talk to friends.
I don't think people's concerns are all their heads. In my support group, several guys who do not completely pass have gotten harrassed--sometimes in both restrooms. I'm pretty sure it's easier than with mtfs, but people who say there is no issue at all aren't totally aware of the situation. Most of the situations I have heard of that happened in the city were more verbal harassment, otoh I heard one very scary incident which happened in a little (rural redneck) town.
One clear advantage is that no one is expecting a conversation or eye contact.
--Jay
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 14, 2013, 06:08:59 PM
It's a board for trans mens topics, anyone who has access to this section is entitled to post here.
From TOS Rule #7:
"If someone wishes to discuss a subject that you are not interested in, suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion. If you feel a person's post violates the rules of this site use the report this post function."
Shantel deserves an apology out of you, in my estimation.
The subtitle of this section is:
A place for female to male transsexuals to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
So yes, anybody can post here, however it's not intended for everybody. It's also supposed to be for support and a portion of the content doesn't seem supportive ex: Each has to make their own decision about it. Am I going to be a man or a sissy? And the false sense of security of declaring to trust that we will be safe (I sure as hell wasn't).
Honestly, some of the original post did rub me the wrong way. There are better ways to encourage people than to say they need to grow kahones or not be sissies.
I'm not a sissy, I live in a small cis-centric, heteronormative area full of rednecks. I don't pass. There are NO doctors in the entire county that do HRT for trans people, let alone ones that take state medical since I can't afford anything else. I get nasty looks when read as female because I have very short hair. I was once almost hit by a car driven by some jerk who made a comment about my partner and me being "f****ts". The law here is also very questionable about whether or not people are even legally allowed to use the public bathroom of their choice without sex reassignment surgery. I really don't feel like being the victim of a hate crime for not being able to get access to resources to make me pass in the eyes of the general public and in their eyes "using the wrong bathroom".
Quote from: aleon515 on February 14, 2013, 06:22:37 PM
I don't think people's concerns are all their heads. In my support group, several guys who do not completely pass have gotten harrassed--sometimes in both restrooms. I'm pretty sure it's easier than with mtfs, but people who say there is no issue at all aren't totally aware of the situation.
I thought we were referring to those who are far enough into their transition to be perceived as male. ???
"however it's not intended for everybody"
Respectfully, Nygeel, you're wrong. This isn't one of the private peer group sections. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 14, 2013, 06:30:01 PM
"however it's not intended for everybody"
Respectfully, Nygeel, you're wrong. This isn't one of the private peer group sections. Hugs, Devlyn
Then the subtitle of the section should be rewritten.
No matter who posts, ALL posts should be respectful.
If a woman does respond here it should have specific purpose, not just be something general. Most posts will probably be from the men here.
I made one comment earlier because I felt incorrect information was being shared about men talking in restrooms. It was meant to be a one time comment, nothing more.
Quote from: DianaP on February 14, 2013, 06:26:24 PM
I thought we were referring to those who are far enough into their transition to be perceived as male. ???
the OP actually addressed "all of us", and the thread might be helping those of us who just need an extra push, but saying we need to "get some kahones" or might be sissies for not feeling ready to do something seems extreme, even with good intentions.
Quote from: Nygeel on February 14, 2013, 06:31:19 PM
Then the subtitle of the section should be rewritten.
To what? "Trans men only"?
Quote from: Shantel on February 14, 2013, 05:25:31 PM
I'm trying to be helpful and encourage those who are ready but are overly apprehensive. I'm not here to engage anyone in a contentious argument. It's clear to me that you have a problem with an MtF making comments on an FtM forum, something you will have to deal with in your own heart, because neither I or any of the MtF folks seem to object to comments on MtF threads by FtM's and often consider them to be positive input. I have been posting off and on here at Susan's since 2004 and understand a lot of issues on both sides of the fence. Hope your day gets better!
I only have a problem when a trans woman comes to a board for trans men and tells us in a not so respectful manner how to "act like men", to "get some cojones", and asking us to make the decision of whether we are going to "be a man or be a sissy".
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 14, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
To what? "Trans men only"?
I said it's intended for trans men. You said I was wrong. So if it's not intended for trans men then the section's subtitle should be changed to whatever you think it's supposed to be since it's not intended for trans men.
Please, lets try to calm down folks, fighting isn't going to help us.
Quote from: aleon515 on February 14, 2013, 06:22:37 PM
I don't think people's concerns are all their heads. In my support group, several guys who do not completely pass have gotten harrassed--sometimes in both restrooms. I'm pretty sure it's easier than with mtfs, but people who say there is no issue at all aren't totally aware of the situation.
One clear advantage is that no one is expecting a conversation or eye contact.
--Jay
Yeah there's def certain places and times during the day/evening when I wouldn't use the men's room. I purposely choose this specific bathroom because there's the security booth right outside the bathroom door and the place where the city and transit police stand just about 20 feet away, figuring if anything went drastically wrong a scream would certainly be heard. Though I feel really safe up here in this area of the country and being in a city that's pretty LGBT friendly.
And about the legality of using the other restroom... the US Supreme Court declared "separate but equal" unconstitutional in
Brown v Board of Education, some states might have something on the books but none that I am aware of (though I haven't looked up the law in all 50 states) but in MA and RI you can legally use whatever bathroom you want. ( Though a security guard or whatever might ask yuo to leave if they get lots of complaints. )
I thought the reference to kahones or sissies was said in more of a humorous over a serious way, especially since she put a smiley face next to the sissies reference. I don't think she was saying anyone is a sissy if they don't put themselves in a dangerous situation. Maybe I am wrong, but I hear men joke with each other all the time about being wusses, etc. so I just don't take any of that personally.
Sigh. Wheat thins, it's a board for trans mens topics.
Nygeel, it's for trans mens topics. Anyone can discuss the issues here.
Well, to be fair, this board focuses primarily on FTM trans
issues. However, that doesn't mean that MTFs can't take part. If anything, having lived as men in society, we can provide some valid input. It's why I welcome FTM posts on any MTF topic. :)
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on February 14, 2013, 06:37:30 PM
I only have a problem when a trans woman comes to a board for trans men and tells us in a not so respectful manner how to "act like men", to "get some cojones", and asking us to make the decision of whether we are going to "be a man or be a sissy".
Well, I'm sure she was joshing. I've seen guys mess around like that many times. Still, if you have no reason to be scared to use the rest room, then use it. :)
To be fair the subtitle of this board is:
A place for female to male transsexuals to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
I think people just need to think sensibly, if you're in a situation where it is clearly not a good idea for you to use the male bathroom then don't. For example, me where many people know me although I might not recognise them, or if you don't pass well at all, or are still presenting female. However I read the post as saying to men who do pass, but just haven't had the push to go and use the mens.
FWIW I don't have a problem with women posting here, especially if they have input on things we don't all know, i.e. bathroom etiquette. And plenty of us don't seem to identify as transsexual, does that mean we shouldn't post here either?
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on February 14, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
To be fair the subtitle of this board is:
A place for female to male transsexuals to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
Trust me on this one. I walk around with a printed copy of the TOS. You should brush up on them. Anyone can post here.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on February 14, 2013, 06:41:21 PM
Please, lets try to calm down folks, fighting isn't going to help us.
I agree. We already take crap from a lot of people out there. We don't need to be at each other's throats too. :(
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 14, 2013, 06:51:24 PM
Trust me on this one. I walk around with a printed copy of the TOS. You should brush up on them. Anyone can post here.
I think this side of the board wouldn't be as good without the input from the ladies, and our hugs from Devlyn when we need them. :) Since they were socialized as male, they can give invaluable tips and input that we otherwise can't get easily.
Either way, I love you guys and girls so let's be friends! ;D
Just to be clear I have no problem with MTFs on this board, as long as we can all be respectful of each other. It's the way it was done that is the problem. But either way it doesn't matter I guess since all the commenters here seem to think disrespect of trans guys in such a way is perfectly fine.
Visit the MTF board. We rip on each other all of the time. :laugh:
Anywho, I'd recommend using the stalls when you first start using the other bathroom. It'll ease the tension if no one sees you. :)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on February 14, 2013, 06:51:24 PM
Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on February 14, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
To be fair the subtitle of this board is:
A place for female to male transsexuals to talk about issues they face in their daily lives.
Trust me on this one. I walk around with a printed copy of the TOS. You should brush up on them. Anyone can post here.
And posting in the "men's" section implies giving a certain amount of respect to those who identify as male. Let's not get this thread down to a pissing match over can post or who the advice goes to because of what society thinks of people in transition.
No, I just said ALL posts should be respectful.
Disrespect is not accepted here and I'm sorry if I missed a post and didn't edit it.
Quote from: Flan on February 14, 2013, 07:01:25 PM
Trust me on this one. I walk around with a printed copy of the TOS. You should brush up on them. Anyone can post here.
And posting in the "men's" section implies giving a certain amount of respect to those who identify as male. Let's not get this thread down to a pissing match over can post or who the advice goes to because of what society thinks of people in transition.
Pissing match. I see what you did there!
sannity check...having been froced to live in the male role, and deal with males most of my life I can tell you: a) that male do not have "issues," b) when a female talks or post about 'man thnigs" they just ignored her, they do not get "up set" or offended, c) most man would consider amusing to find a girl in their bathroom.
Quote from: peky on February 14, 2013, 07:34:20 PM
sannity check...having been froced to live in the male role, and deal with males most of my life I can tell you: a) that male do not have "issues," b) when a female talks or post about 'man thnigs" they just ignored her, they do not get "up set" or offended, c) most man would consider amusing to find a girl in their bathroom.
I do agree with (c), I once went into a men's room wearing 4 in heels and a mini skirt with a male friend, all the guys seemed to think it was amusing.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 14, 2013, 07:39:40 PM
I once went into a men's room wearing 4 in heels and a mini skirt with a male friend, all the guys seemed to think it was amusing.
I don't know what's more amazing: the fact that you walked into a men's restroom dressed like that, or the fact that you can walk in 4 inch heels! :laugh:
I think that everybody needs to take a breath and calm down. Come on everyone, we're family. I can see both sides of the argument here. Shantel was just trying to be nice and encouraging, maybe the right choice of words weren't used, but nevertheless she was trying to help us guys. I don't have an issue with any of the ladies posting here, I've posted in the MTF section before where I felt I could offer advice. Family don't always see eye to eye, but in the end, they forgive each other and forget about it. I think we should all leave it where it was, everybody has said how they feel. The number one reason I come to Susan's is because its like a family and the support. Let's not change what Susan's is about just because of a little misunderstanding.
Joey
Quote from: Joey4 on February 14, 2013, 07:44:29 PM
I think that everybody needs to take a breath and calm down. Come on everyone, we're family. I can see both sides of the argument here. Shantel was just trying to be nice and encouraging, maybe the right choice of words weren't used, but nevertheless she was trying to help us guys. I don't have an issue with any of the ladies posting here, I've posted in the MTF section before where I felt I could offer advice. Family don't always see eye to eye, but in the end, they forgive each other and forget about it. I think we should all leave it where it was, everybody has said how they feel. The number one reason I come to Susan's is because its like a family and the support. Let's not change what Susan's is about just because of a little misunderstanding.
Joey
I agree 1000% with this. I don't think Shantel meant any harm with this thread, because sometimes a gentle kick in the pants is what we need to take a step forward. Her intention doesn't seem to be to have someone who has just started out and has trouble passing go and use the men's room if they live in, say, a small town in a Bible Belt state where they might be harassed or jumped for "using the wrong restroom". I think gendered bathrooms are ridiculous to have without having a gender-neutral bathroom containing more than one stall, so that everyone can be happy, but as long as someone is passing well and doesn't have any serious threat to fear on the offhand chance that they are clocked, why not go for it?
Also, I'm kind of hurt seeing the comments on how this is an FTM board for trans men only. Guys, we've got a board like that. This one is for us to share our ups and downs and questions and answers- the ladies can be just as insightful. Every trans* member here is a minority- why further split up the community? What do we do with genderqueer people- do they post in the respective gender's thread depending on how they feel that day? Do agender people suddenly become restricted to posting in a section of their own? Bigender people? Trigender? Please, let's all be the family this forum is meant to be, instead of bashing on one another over word choice or being on the "wrong side" of the fence to post in a board.
Remember: Together we stand, divided we fall.
Quote from: DianaP on February 14, 2013, 06:26:24 PM
I thought we were referring to those who are far enough into their transition to be perceived as male. ???
I would guess this too, but there are those of us who don't really like to use either too much. I do use a men's in some places where it is single stall.
--Jay
Quote from: peky on February 14, 2013, 07:34:20 PM
sannity check...having been froced to live in the male role, and deal with males most of my life I can tell you: a) that male do not have "issues," b) when a female talks or post about 'man thnigs" they just ignored her, they do not get "up set" or offended, c) most man would consider amusing to find a girl in their bathroom.
This is not necessarily true from what I heard in group though. However, this is really good, transguy interviews cismen and women re: attitudes in the bathroom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxesL9W2FKE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxesL9W2FKE)
--Jay
I don't believe most people would say or do much even if you're not passing. Most people would think "oh, maybe just a mistake" or "ok...whatever." But there is that chance of there being a bad apple, too, and I don't think that being concerned if you're not passing well is completely unfounded. Some people might see us as really butch lesbians and act out in anger/homophobia. I remember my grandfather told me if he saw a woman in the men's bathroom he would call the police and make a big scene, and let me tell you, I believe him on that one. Some people have very strict gender roles ingrained in them, and they will make a way bigger deal out of it than they should. Are they the exception? Yes. But it doesn't make it better if it does happen to you.
I do think that if you're passing though, you should try and use the men's, for your own sake. But if you're like me pre-T (or even now...but pre-T I literally never passed), it may be more comfortable to use the women's, and it might be the right thing to do for you. There has to be a sense of readiness and security, and it comes down to if it would be worse to use the women's and deal with dysphoria, or worse to stress over not passing in the men's and facing harassment. For me, it came down to the dysphoria being worse than the fear, which is why I took the leap and started using the men's.
It's simple, if you are androgynous or pass use the men's room. If you don't pass, don't use the men's room. In society it comes down to how you look a lot of the time. People don't care what someone's identity is. If you don't pass in most situations you're not going to pass any differently in the restroom.
If someone's not ready there is probably a good reason for it, so no need to encourage someone into being delusional when there is the potential that someone could get discriminated against.
Quote from: Simon on February 15, 2013, 01:48:35 AM
It's simple, if you are androgynous or pass use the men's room. If you don't pass, don't use the men's room. In society it comes down to how you look a lot of the time. People don't care what someone's identity is. If you don't pass in most situations you're not going to pass any differently in the restroom.
If someone's not ready there is probably a good reason for it, so no need to encourage someone into being delusional when there is the potential that someone could get discriminated against.
I agree. I didn't start using the mens room until I was on t and passing. I did not use the mens room while I was pre-T because I didn't pass. I think it's important to know your surroundings and know whether it is safe to go in the mens room and if you pass in order to use it.
I started using the men's room when I was on T and started to pass. I was barely passing in my home state but used the airport men's room and was terrified, sitting in the stall. Once I got to my destination, I passed readily but then was unfortunately outed by my driver's license (that was changed when I got back from my trip). But it was nice to know I passed! I even used a busy truck stop rest room, that was crowded. Toilets were disgusting but it made me feel good to do it. Of course I was still terrified and looked at NO ONE.
I mostly started using the local grocery store men's room as it had 1 stall and 1 urinal and was usually empty. It was an easy way to get used to it. You might try finding a local store that has a similar set up.
Jay
My husband and I were joking that he would need to scout out prospective bathrooms to confirm that the stalls have doors, haha.
I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that some bathrooms have doorless stalls, but apparently he's come across that once or twice. Mind = blown.
I have heard that there are doorless stalls in men's restroom. I haven't seen any in the year of I have been using them. I don't know for sure what I would do if I found myself in that situation, probably would use it if I had to go bad enough and there were not many guys around. I would keep my legs close together as much of the time as I could. All my underwear is men's, boxers mostly so that is not a problem.
Of course, that made me Google "doorless bathroom stalls" ........
Quote from: mm on February 15, 2013, 01:42:39 PM
I have heard that there are doorless stalls in men's restroom. I haven't seen any in the year of I have been using them. I don't know for sure what I would do if I found myself in that situation, probably would use it if I had to go bad enough and there were not many guys around. I would keep my legs close together as much of the time as I could. All my underwear is men's, boxers mostly so that is not a problem.
I have seen a woman's room without door at a rest stop in south Carolina. I don't understand, if you're not going to put a door on, why bother with the sides?
There's a website and app (not sure the name of the app Trans Squat or something weird). The website is
safetopee.com
--Jay
We have an App for that! https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,123916.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,123916.0.html)
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 15, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
I don't understand, if you're not going to put a door on, why bother with the sides?
That way, you don't have to see anyone else do their business? ???
Anywho, it would take serious cojones to use the bathroom stall without a door. I remember forgetting to lock the door and someone coming into the stall. I told him, "I'm gonna need a minute here, chief."
The look on his face was priceless, almost as though he was thinking, "I found you with your pants off. How are you in charge right now?"
Anywho, a men's bathroom is so icky! :icon_cry2:
Quote from: DianaP on February 15, 2013, 03:02:33 PM
That way, you don't have to see anyone else do their business? ???
Anywho, it would take serious cojones to use the bathroom stall without a door. I remember forgetting to lock the door and someone coming into the stall. I told him, "I'm gonna need a minute here, chief."
The look on his face was priceless, almost as though he was thinking, "I found you with your pants off. How are you in charge right now?"
Anywho, a men's bathroom is so icky! :icon_cry2:
Wait until you see the bathrooms at a bootcamp....no walls no doors no nothing...but when you have to go you have to go...LOL
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 15, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
I have seen a woman's room without door at a rest stop in south Carolina. I don't understand, if you're not going to put a door on, why bother with the sides?
I think some business operators do that especially at gas stations to discourage drug users from using the stall for shooting up and free basing because they don't want that element around their customers. It also discourages those people who want to read the newspaper while on the commode. Generally those restrooms are best to avoid because usually they are so dirty you wouldn't want your rear end to touch the seat anyway.
On another note, sorry some were upset by this thread. The intent was to be a note of encouragement and generate conversation about dealing with apprehension over restrooms. Got a bit bashed, but it was worth it to see some guys get over that hump and feel a sense of personal victory.
Just want to let the OP know that I didn't take offense to anything she said.
Some posts were harsh but not the end of the world.
Nothing worth being offended about.
Once in a while some of us need a good kick in the butt to get things rolling,
so thanks for doing that.
Jayr, as long as people are aware that unless you pass this is not totally safe. I think that in most cases in might actually be safe. But there are areas, people, etc that this is not so okay with. It is true most guys could give a darn, but there are religious zealots and gay bashers in the land.
--Jay
Quote from: peky on February 15, 2013, 05:27:38 PM
Wait until you see the bathrooms at a bootcamp....no walls no doors no nothing...but when you have to go you have to go...LOL
Hey, at least I get my own spot. In a public bathroom, I have to use a dirty cesspool of icky. :P
Quote from: aleon515 on February 15, 2013, 06:26:23 PM
Jayr, as long as people are aware that unless you pass this is not totally safe. I think that in most cases in might actually be safe. But there are areas, people, etc that this is not so okay with. It is true most guys could give a darn, but there are religious zealots and gay bashers in the land.
--Jay
Is there a documented case of a girl or transguy being beaten for using the men room?
Quote from: peky on February 15, 2013, 06:42:31 PM
Is there a documented case of a girl or transguy being beaten for using the men room?
I saw a documentary and one of the FTMs said he was beaten when he used the men's room in a bar. I can't remember the name of the documentary....
But, I think people just need to use some common sense and realize there's a risk to everything you do.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 15, 2013, 08:01:10 PM
I saw a documentary and one of the FTMs said he was beaten when he used the men's room in a bar. I can't remember the name of the documentary....
But, I think people just need to use some common sense and realize there's a risk to everything you do.
I saw that documentary too... I think it was the national geographic one?
Quote from: CursedFire on February 15, 2013, 08:12:43 PM
I saw that documentary too... I think it was the national geographic one?
Maybe it was nat geo, but i know it had the same girl that was featured in Red Without Blue.
Quote from: peky on February 15, 2013, 06:42:31 PM
Is there a documented case of a girl or transguy being beaten for using the men room?
I'm curious as to how that kind of information would be documented. Would it be said that there was a woman (sic) in a men's room and she (sic) got what she deserved? A non or partially passing transguy would be considered "female". I'm guessing we are more invisible as a minority.
--Jay
Quote from: peky on February 15, 2013, 06:42:31 PM
Is there a documented case of a girl or transguy being beaten for using the men room?
There's no case exactly but I know two people who were beaten up for using the men's.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 15, 2013, 08:01:10 PM
I saw a documentary and one of the FTMs said he was beaten when he used the men's room in a bar. I can't remember the name of the documentary....
Excuse me, just going to slide in and point out that it was in a bar. You know, lowered inhibitions and whatlike?
I haven't joined this thread as yet.
Couple of points from my view, nice post from the OP to raise awareness in my opinion.
TGs getting bashed in men's toilets? Well bashings in men's toilets are so common that they don't raise an eyebrow, Guys are always bashing each other in the toilets, a very common pub fighting place. I'm not denying in anyway that transmen haven't been bashed but males seem to have a bashing gene anyway, it's linked to IQ and alcohol tolerance level.
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy James on February 16, 2013, 01:35:50 AM
TGs getting bashed in men's toilets? Well bashings in men's toilets are so common that they don't raise an eyebrow, Guys are always bashing each other in the toilets, a very common pub fighting place. I'm not denying in anyway that transmen haven't been bashed but males seem to have a bashing gene anyway, it's linked to IQ and alcohol tolerance level.
Cindy
Well there's probably something to this. The other thing, when transwoman are beat up in bathrooms it is many times by women. That would certainly get attention, since women aren't normally associated with violence.
Don't think my IQ is lower because I'm a guy though. Don't know about alcohol tolerance, but guys are sometimes expected to drink more than women, even if their tolerance isn't so high. Except for younger women, women are rarely expected to drink. I think, living as a (pretend) woman, it has been some 20 years since I had to explain or otherwise defend or laugh away anybody asking me why I don't drink. I'm guessing that may change.
--Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on February 16, 2013, 02:31:30 AM
Well there's probably something to this. The other thing, when transwoman are beat up in bathrooms it is many times by women. That would certainly get attention, since women aren't normally associated with violence.
Don't think my IQ is lower because I'm a guy though. Don't know about alcohol tolerance, but guys are sometimes expected to drink more than women, even if their tolerance isn't so high. Except for younger women, women are rarely expected to drink. I think, living as a (pretend) woman, it has been some 20 years since I had to explain or otherwise defend or laugh away anybody asking me why I don't drink. I'm guessing that may change.
--Jay
Ohh boy.
You may be in for a surprise when you start mixing with guys FT.
I didn't mean ANYTHING about guys IQs or alcohol tolerance in general. To be clear, in the situation I was referring to many guys have a culture of drinking etc in their social areas, some get drunk and no problems, some get aggressively drunk. The mixture of booze lowered inhibitions, aggression from T (normal) and the drinking nature and stuff that goes on in pubs can lead to violence. It is random, dumb, stupid and happens.
My comment about IQ was 'in passing' because usually the 'dumber' the person the more likely they are to be violent when drunk.
It is a very well known thing and a thing guys deal with. Guys
can get violent, particularly when drinking. It has nothing to do with TG, it's guy stuff. And yes fights often start in the toilet but it has NOTHING to do with TG etc, guys get aggressive and particularly in clubs/pubs etc where there are lots of youg guys stuff happens.
My comment has NOTHING to do with your own behaviour.
I'll leave it there.
C
Quote from: Cindy James on February 16, 2013, 02:53:05 AM
Ohh boy.
You may be in for a surprise when you start mixing with guys FT.
I didn't mean ANYTHING about guys IQs or alcohol tolerance in general. To be clear, in the situation I was referring to many guys have a culture of drinking etc in their social areas, some get drunk and no problems, some get aggressively drunk. The mixture of booze lowered inhibitions, aggression from T (normal) and the drinking nature and stuff that goes on in pubs can lead to violence. It is random, dumb, stupid and happens.
My comment about IQ was 'in passing' because usually the 'dumber' the person the more likely they are to be violent when drunk.
It is a very well known thing and a thing guys deal with. Guys can get violent, particularly when drinking. It has nothing to do with TG, it's guy stuff. And yes fights often start in the toilet but it has NOTHING to do with TG etc, guys get aggressive and particularly in clubs/pubs etc where there are lots of youg guys stuff happens.
My comment has NOTHING to do with your own behaviour.
I'll leave it there.
C
Cindy speaks the truth..
Back before transition, I got beat up in the bathroom of a bar a few times. Always by some very drunk and aggressive moron for some imagined slight.
I would imagine that most FTMs wouldn't report it to the police, just going on the same train of thought as to why many women (especially pre-rape shield law) didn't report rapes to the police. I don't think I'd want to have to explain to a cop that I am bio-female, and would just stumble on home or to an ER and deal with my wounds.
Cindy, mean what you say and say what you mean.
Quote from: Cindy James on February 16, 2013, 01:35:50 AM
I haven't joined this thread as yet.
Couple of points from my view, nice post from the OP to raise awareness in my opinion.
TGs getting bashed in men's toilets? Well bashings in men's toilets are so common that they don't raise an eyebrow, Guys are always bashing each other in the toilets, a very common pub fighting place. I'm not denying in anyway that transmen haven't been bashed but males seem to have a bashing gene anyway, it's linked to IQ and alcohol tolerance level.
Cindy
From my experience dealing with a lot of blokes that were members of the 1st Royal Australian Regiment I can assure you that getting drunk and bashing people is more of a cultural curiosity which I observed during a drinking session between a bunch of Aussie's and some "Yanks" when an Aussie said "F*** LBJ", an American reciprocated with "F*** the Queen" It wasn't pretty! Had it been an all American drink-a-thon we would have all agreed and laughed, that would have been the end of it but the Aussies just love to mix it up and any excuse will do.
I didn't use the men's room much until I was passing. For me it wasn't fear of 'trouble' as much as embarrassment. Nobody ever said anything, but I felt embarrassed being seen going in when I looked female.
As far as the comments on the OP's posts, Shantel is encouraging guys who might need a push old school. I'm not saying she couldn't have been gentler, but there seems to be a socialization gap here. There's some oversensitivity on this board in general.
I started using the men's room when I changed name and went full time, which was pre-T and without passing. I could do this because I live in an area where no one is likely to make a fuss. Now, as for guys finding girls in the men's room amusing, this is true. There is however the risk that guys close to their neanderthal roots might be threatened by what they perceive as "a chick trying to be a guy". So know your surroundings.
As for the rest that unfolded in this thread:
<deleted> Ah screw it, pizza's done.
All of the starbucks I've ever been to have single occupancy separate male and female restrooms, so if anyone is looking for a place to try it out slowly and non-nonchalantly just for the feel of it, not a bad place to go next time you feel like spending 4 dollars for a coffee.
Quote from: spacerace on February 16, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
All of the starbucks I've ever been to have single occupancy separate male and female restrooms, so if anyone is looking for a place to try it out slowly and non-nonchalantly just for the feel of it, not a bad place to go next time you feel like spending 4 dollars for a coffee.
In NYC starbucks has gender neutral bathrooms only. And they don't make a fuss if you don't buy anything.
Quote from: spacerace on February 16, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
All of the starbucks I've ever been to have single occupancy separate male and female restrooms, so if anyone is looking for a place to try it out slowly and non-nonchalantly just for the feel of it, not a bad place to go next time you feel like spending 4 dollars for a coffee.
I'm actually accepted as male at this local coffee place (been called "man" and so on). I use the men's single occupancy (just as clean as the women's actually). I don't think they'd care if I didn't buy anything.
Ok Cindy. I'll accept that. I don't think it is quite so simple as I think there have been incidents with partially passing ftms. I think you'd have a hard time provign it as there are so many incidents of generally thuggery in men's rooms (esp in bars). I'd guess it to be the most unsafe place to try anything new. I also think that a certain level of male thuggery is condoned in at least some societies. Where if a woman beats up someone it is huge national news. Women thuggery is not condoned. Chalk it up partially for equal rights to thuggery?
LH, I think there is something there. A lot of guys are stealth so even bringing stuff up.
--Jay
Quote from: Nygeel on February 16, 2013, 11:40:14 AM
In NYC starbucks has gender neutral bathrooms only. And they don't make a fuss if you don't buy anything.
Quoted for truth. It's nice to be able to just walk in, do my business, and walk out without someone behind the counter saying "HEY YOU! BUY SOMETHING NOW!" and releasing the guard dogs.
I want to do that in school but too many people know me there and I really don't feel like setting off anyone who might not be bright enough to be understanding if I ever explained.
Quote from: encircle me on February 13, 2013, 08:57:42 PM
I certainly don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think this kind of a thread is entirely appropriate. Just my opinion, but I feel like I would be a little put off if I was reading your post as a member of its target audience.
as part of its target audience im not in the slight bit offended. It may be because i agree with the OP's point men dont care just walk in like you own the place and dont worry about it.
Quote from: LearnedHand on February 15, 2013, 08:28:27 PM
Maybe it was nat geo, but i know it had the same girl that was featured in Red Without Blue.
I just watched this after seeing it mentioned in this thread. And yeah - one of the transguys highlighted gets assaulted pretty bad in a restroom one night at a bar. He said he used to not go in the restroom at this bar because he was afraid, and the first time he tried it he was accosted.
Not that this means anyone should be scared or anything in most circumstances, just that it does apparently happen to trans guys too unfortunately, so we should always be aware of our surroundings.