Nothing earth shaking, but left a strange taste so I wanted other people's impression.
I went on a hike with a lesbian meetup with four other women . I had a great time. They were super interesting people and we went out for lunch afterward.
During lunch, the lady who organized it told me I looked familiar, and asked me if I knew Mara Drummond.
(Mara Drummond is a transgender author who lives in our local community. I haven't actually ever met her.)
I'm convinced she read me as trans.
I tried to hide my surprise. I said no, I didn't know Mara Drummond, but the name sounded familiar. (The truth, though maybe a tad incomplete).
A couple minutes later, I casually asked what made her think I would know Mara Drummond.
"I hang out with her sometimes, and I thought I might have known you from that", was the answer. "She has a lot of tall friends and you're tall."
Aside from disappointment at not passing (though I did spend all morning with the woman, so there was a lot of opportunity to spot stuff, and it was for lesbians so they're probably more sensitive to this sort of thing), I thought it was kind of intrusive to as me about being trans, even really obliquely. I mean, I'm glad she didn't just say it straight out, but I thought this indirect reference was wasn't that much of an improvement.
This is the second time in as many weeks, that someone asked me whether I was trans by asking if I know so-and-so, who was an out transwoman.
Have others had similar experiences? How would you handle this?
Sorry, I'm not here to answer your question. I just thought that the tall thing was hilarious...I mean maybe she sincerely meant tall, but I find it much more likely that it was a "gentler" way of saying trans.
My advice would depend on what you think the intentions of the person were. Do you think they meant "I know your secret, you're not fooling anyone" or "I know other transwomen, you can feel comfortable around me" or maybe something completely different.
I would read it as total acceptance. Whether she knows you are transgender or not is irrelevant!
I think we need to realise that we will 'always' be read sometime, unless we are very fortunate in our looks etc. we just have to have a good coping mechanism.
Mine is that I don't care. I'm me. I'm happy. I'm proud of being me.
Quote from: ثنائية بين الجنسين on September 29, 2013, 04:13:12 PM
Do you think they meant "I know your secret, you're not fooling anyone" or "I know other transwomen, you can feel comfortable around me" or maybe something completely different.
I think it was "I've guessed you might be trans and I'm burning to find out whether or not I'm right."
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 05:44:29 PM
I think it was "I've guessed you might be trans and I'm burning to find out whether or not I'm right."
You're probably right, it was pretty rude though!
I wouldn't sweat it too much. Knowing the author means she is probably around transsexuals at times and in tune with it. Not like a regular person with no contact in that world. Also, maybe she did think she saw you sometime in the past and did not want to appear rude by ignoring you. Just food for thought. Have a great day!
you know some will pride themselves on their transdar abilities but it kinda sounds like "I have a gay friend you might know...."??? The uninformed think there are so few of us that we are all friends?
I hate being read. Being red often times is like a giant claw reaching out and pulling you away from the present and dragging you back into the misery and horror of the past.
Because of this I try to avoid gays and lesbians.
sorry for the comment that they made to you. its defitnitely an implied statement that your trans. But I kinda hate when people do those kinds of things because its all its women competition, to show they are the better women
This probably won't be popular. In life, when I'm getting to know someone in a wheelchair, I ask them if they'd mind telling me why they use it. If I work with someone with a horrible burn on their face or a cloudy eye, I'll ask what happened. It's human nature to notice and wonder things about other people. The guy in the wheelchair didn't get mad, he told me he was glad I asked. Said he had friends that had known him for years and never asked why he needed the chair.
Most humans are taught that if you ask a respectful question, almost any topic is acceptable. Sometimes, talking to transgender people, no matter how gently, can be a minefield. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 29, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
This probably won't be popular. In life, when I'm getting to know someone in a wheelchair, I ask them if they'd mind telling me why they use it. If I work with someone with a horrible burn on their face or a cloudy eye, I'll ask what happened. It's human nature to notice and wonder things about other people. The guy in the wheelchair didn't get mad, he told me he was glad I asked. Said he had friends that had known him for years and never asked why he needed the chair.
Most humans are taught that if you ask a respectful question, almost any topic is acceptable. Sometimes, talking to transgender people, no matter how gently, can be a minefield. Hugs, Devlyn
I totally agree with you about the burns and wheelchair. I'd do the same thing.
Asking a woman whether she's trans isn't the same thing:
* If she's not, you're saying she looks male.
* If she is, you're saying she's readable.
Either way, not flattering.
I reread your O/P, it seems she carefully avoided saying that, yet you "credited" her for it. Maybe I'm misreading it, apologies if I am. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 08:35:37 PM
I totally agree with you about the burns and wheelchair. I'd do the same thing.
Asking a woman whether she's trans isn't the same thing:
* If she's not, you're saying she looks male.
* If she is, you're saying she's readable.
Either way, not flattering.
Would you rather have it so you are readable, but no one could tell you this? If they say nothing, we might convince ourselves that "Oh golly, I must look 100% passable! Yay me!"
To me, that's sort of like having bad breath...but no one mentions it for fear of embarrassing you, so one goes about their life thinking "..at least I don't have bad breath!"
Btw, she didn't ask you if you were trans, she asked if you knew a particular author...yes, she likely was fishing for info, but then if I were gay, that'd probably be the ice-breaker for me to find out if the person I'm talking to is gay, by mentioning a gay author or perhaps even a subject ("I was thinking about going to the gay pride parade in a couple weeks...")
Lol... 'tall' ... lets coopt the word and own it. Tall pride!
Its hard to say if thats what she meant without being there. But its hard to say 'hey are you trans?' Isnt it.
I will tell a little aside story on the subject. I was walking through an unfamiliar mall recently, and I clocked a girl walking towards me. Very passable to mortals, but not to the trans eye- having spent so much time analyzing trans faces online we are our own worst critics. She saw that I clocked her, and looked anxious. Or... did she? I wanted to pop over, introduce myself and point to my trans pride symbol bracelet and let her know I was a sister too... but something stopped me. What if I was wrong?
Sigh... it may have turned an uncomfortable moment for her to a happy one. But dammit, missed.
We need a secret signal or something ;)
:icon_suspicious:
Maybe I should have asked her if she was tall.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 08:35:37 PM
I totally agree with you about the burns and wheelchair. I'd do the same thing.
Asking a woman whether she's trans isn't the same thing:
* If she's not, you're saying she looks male.
* If she is, you're saying she's readable.
Either way, not flattering.
Absolutely not flattering and shouldn't be done, implied or hinted at for those two reasons exactly and I want to add especially should never come from another trans person unless it clearly evident that it's OK.
Quote from: Shantel on September 29, 2013, 08:53:46 PM
Absolutely not flattering and shouldn't be done, implied or hinted at for those two reasons exactly and I want to add especially should never come from another trans person unless it clearly evident that it's OK.
And what would be "clearly evident"?
(Besides seeing me in my car LOL)
:)
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 08:35:37 PM
I totally agree with you about the burns and wheelchair. I'd do the same thing.
Asking a woman whether she's trans isn't the same thing:
* If she's not, you're saying she looks male.
* If she is, you're saying she's readable.
Either way, not flattering.
Absolutely. I don't mind people asking about my eye - if it is done in a tactful and respectful way.
That said is someone outright asked if I was trans I'd feel like crap regardless of how they did it.
Quote from: ErinM on September 29, 2013, 09:03:27 PM
Absolutely. I don't mind people asking about my eye - if it is done in a tactful and respectful way.
That said is someone outright asked if I was trans I'd feel like crap regardless of how they did it.
This.
Lets see if she is going to invite You over for next event. If yes, then it was a subtle way (at least in her opinion) of hers to let You know and that she is cool with it. If not, then it is the same, except You are not welcome anymore. If they were a nice company, then I hope it will turn out as the former option.
As much as I would hate to be read / clocked down the line, I accept that there are some people who will always know or suspect my trans status. Typically they'd be involved in the circle somehow. I'd certainly hope for enough respect to never approach me about it though.
And I mean I clock some trans girls around that few others members of the community would. But I'd never act up or approach them. Geez.
Quote from: Emmaline on September 29, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Lol... 'tall' ... lets coopt the word and own it. Tall pride!
Its hard to say if thats what she meant without being there. But its hard to say 'hey are you trans?' Isnt it.
I will tell a little aside story on the subject. I was walking through an unfamiliar mall recently, and I clocked a girl walking towards me. Very passable to mortals, but not to the trans eye- having spent so much time analyzing trans faces online we are our own worst critics. She saw that I clocked her, and looked anxious. Or... did she? I wanted to pop over, introduce myself and point to my trans pride symbol bracelet and let her know I was a sister too... but something stopped me. What if I was wrong?
Sigh... it may have turned an uncomfortable moment for her to a happy one. But dammit, missed.
We need a secret signal or something ;)
:icon_suspicious:
Maybe I should have asked her if she was tall.
If you did that to me I would not like you.
Whenever I see someone I suspect might be trans I always do my best not to make eye contact or otherwise make it known that I have potentially spotted them.
:police:
of course the infallible trans-police are the trans-people themselves.
Having said that I wish that the "trans" status may be regarded as a health status,
like a diabetic that needs to inject insulin regularly.
If I "clock" a diabetic woman, because I see in her purse some diabetic-related medicines,
I don't scream it to the world: "SHE is a diabetic!!!". So I would like that if they clock me
(and SURE they WILL, at least someone) they do not shout in public "OH MY GOD! A MAN WITH A SKIRT!!!".
The same if I clocked a woman with artificial teeth.
Bottom line: I don't mind being READ, you can be read politely and rudely, that's the difference.
Quote from: ErinM on September 29, 2013, 09:03:27 PM
Absolutely. I don't mind people asking about my eye - if it is done in a tactful and respectful way.
That said is someone outright asked if I was trans I'd feel like crap regardless of how they did it.
Funny you say that and thank you.
My wife and I will sit for a coffee when we go out and she is a severely disabled woman we are both very outgoing and friendly and we can both speak. I don't mean that rudely just as a perspective on her disability.
We have people come up and chat and they have been really nice, people do ask how she is going and how she is coping etc, which we both take in a very positive friendly way, and that is how it is meant, and it is nice and polite and I think is showing we are inclusive in society. If some one asked 'And how is your sex change going?' I think I would react in a different manner!!!
It would not be polite. >:-)
Quote from: tmarina on September 30, 2013, 04:56:19 AM
Bottom line: I don't mind being READ, you can be read politely and rudely, that's the difference.
I just started my transition and this is the way I see it - I expect to get read, especially in the very early days while I'm learning my makeup and dealing with a beard shadow and learning how to present. I can't do a thing about it anyway so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. If someone does clock me and are polite about it I'll respond in kind - after all, I may be the first trans person that they have ever run into in life and it's important to leave that person with a good impression of who we are.
And then...... there are the people that have to make a spectacle out of seeing you by their actions - these people don't merit any attention by me. I may be some kind of joke to them but it's MY life and MY life is far more important than whatever nonsense is rolling around in their heads. As a very small example last Saturday I was out in public and a couple of women at a restaurant kept looking over at me and were quite animated so I know that they clocked me. I just stayed calm, kept eating and ignored them. They left soon afterward and that's the last I'll ever see of them.
As far as Suzi's question - my gut feel is that she may have been on a fishing expedition but since her questions were couched very carefully that tells me that if she knew you were trans she also knew enough not to out you right there on the spot. So I'd guess that her questions/intent were not malicious in nature.
I certainly would not like that situation. With me, the "code word" is usually something about low pitched voices and/or endocrine problems as in if I visit an endocrinologist. I think some of the times they really dont know and are fishing, sometimes they know and try to tell me they know and sometimes they know but dont show it at all except maybe by not treating me as any other woman. The latter part is what worries me about all of these situations - if they "read me" and dont shout it out but are polite, thats nice, but if this changes their own perception of me and how they act towards me, that is annoying. For example if they do, they will not talk about having babies or getting menstruations around me. Not that I could contribute to these topics, but I still feel somehow excluded.
And its weird maybe but there are situations when people really want to be friendly but it just does devastate me anyways even though I know that this probably still is the best outcome relatively. These are the ones when women come by and tell you that they "see you as a woman" or "accept you as a woman". Thats so - meh. Point one is of course that they did "read" you, so thats already not good, point two is that saying so probably means they actually do see you different in some way but dont want you to think they do. As I said, its still far better than just silently treating you differently or even outright outing you, so it is the best outcome but still I feel sad at such situations.
EDIT: I actually started out a different way at the beginning of transition - feeling that I for sure would not always pass at all, that I would be glad if I made it most of the time and blissful when no one commented openly. Somehow that changed in the long run after some years...
Quote from: Cindy on September 30, 2013, 05:07:24 AM
If some one asked 'And how is your sex change going?' I think I would react in a different manner!!!
It would not be polite. >:-)
A police woman asked me that out of the blue once and it just floored me. Not nice at all!
Quote from: anjaq on September 30, 2013, 09:01:36 AM
The latter part is what worries me about all of these situations - if they "read me" and dont shout it out but are polite, thats nice, but if this changes their own perception of me and how they act towards me, that is annoying. For example if they do, they will not talk about having babies or getting menstruations around me. Not that I could contribute to these topics, but I still feel somehow excluded.
We gotta remember that both genders are very different in their response. Guys tend to be more openly douchebags straight into Your face so that they can see Your response, whereas girls could be all that nice and kind, but at the same time very devastating behind Your back. This is very important and crucial difference and if we have had enough socialising with guys, we might forget about this. And sadly, being backstabby is one of the few features which I dislike in female social bonding :(.
Yes, what that woman said was rude, particularly in view of how hard it is for the trans population to be/feel accepted. I sincerely hope she was not trying to be rude. She was asking, indirectly, in the way that a lesbian or a gay man might ask another person if they, too were homosexual. There's a certain etiquette to it, and from her culture, from what I have seen, she was being delicate. Ignorant, but delicate.
I tend to look at the positives. You spent all day in this woman's company, and to me it sounds like she only "maybe" clocked you... picked up on enough clues over the course of the entire hike that she wasn't certain if you were trans or not (at least, that's how I read it). She gave you a softball. She (probably) wanted to see how you reacted to confirm or deny her suspicions, possibly in order to solve a mystery for herself.
If the woman was interested in hurting you, she could have easily done so by loudly asking about your transition, so I don't think that was the intent (Of course, I could be very wrong).
But to the Polyanna in me, the upshot is that you went hiking with a lesbian who knows transgendered people and you passed so freaking well even *she* wasn't certain. Still doesn't excuse her behavior, but perhaps it can soothe the hurt a bit to know that.
*hug*
Getting read happens by those who are looking to do something like that. If they feel like they want to make a deal out of it, they will but it's totally up to you as to whether you let them.
In my first year or so, I got read occasionally. Generally it was annoying but not really something worth my emotional turmoil. What this lady did was very *very* subtle and a far cry from what I've heard a lot of girls go through or have gone through myself when attempting to find community within the lesbian world so, I'm gonna have to say this is a big girl panties moment. It may have made you uncomfortable but it was very mild and, really, if you can't deal with this, some of the other stuff that you're gonna experience will floor you out cold. She didn't out you, she was probing to see if you were going to be open about it. You weren't and she didn't pursue it.
While a lot of us, especially early on, are fragile and delicate, we have to toughen up a bit with time. A lot of this comes down to acceptance and self-confidence in who we are. Most of the time, if someone even gets close to the topic, I'll go ahead and open up about who and what I am because I embrace it: I'm a woman. I'm a transsexual woman, sure, but I'm still a dyed-in-the-wool, southern-fried, farm girl from Alabama that can dance at a ball or hoe a field, fix a drain or hem a skirt. If you have a problem with that, that's on you but it has no bearing on my opinion about myself nor my mood 'cause, if you do, you're definitely not important to me.
Quote from: Emmaline on September 29, 2013, 08:49:34 PM
Lol... 'tall' ... lets coopt the word and own it. Tall pride!
Its hard to say if thats what she meant without being there. But its hard to say 'hey are you trans?' Isnt it.
I will tell a little aside story on the subject. I was walking through an unfamiliar mall recently, and I clocked a girl walking towards me. Very passable to mortals, but not to the trans eye- having spent so much time analyzing trans faces online we are our own worst critics. She saw that I clocked her, and looked anxious. Or... did she? I wanted to pop over, introduce myself and point to my trans pride symbol bracelet and let her know I was a sister too... but something stopped me. What if I was wrong?
Sigh... it may have turned an uncomfortable moment for her to a happy one. But dammit, missed.
We need a secret signal or something ;)
:icon_suspicious:
Maybe I should have asked her if she was tall.
This would be super uncool. You are basically saying, "I can tell you aren't really the sex you identify with so let's be friends upon the basis of your inability to pass as female."
Quote from: Kate G on September 30, 2013, 04:19:20 PM
This would be super uncool. You are basically saying, "I can tell you aren't really the sex you identify with so let's be friends upon the basis of your inability to pass as female."
I'd have to agree. If someone really WANTS to meet other transgender people, they will do so at a designated place e.g. a transgender support group. Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.
Quote from: ثنائية بين الجنسين on September 30, 2013, 04:30:17 PM
I'd have to agree. If someone really WANTS to meet other transgender people, they will do so at a designated place e.g. a transgender support group. Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.
Yeah, conjure your best friendly smile and walk on.
Quote from: robinmack on September 30, 2013, 01:28:48 PM
Yes, what that woman said was rude, particularly in view of how hard it is for the trans population to be/feel accepted. I sincerely hope she was not trying to be rude. She was asking, indirectly, in the way that a lesbian or a gay man might ask another person if they, too were homosexual. There's a certain etiquette to it, and from her culture, from what I have seen, she was being delicate. Ignorant, but delicate.
I tend to look at the positives. You spent all day in this woman's company, and to me it sounds like she only "maybe" clocked you... picked up on enough clues over the course of the entire hike that she wasn't certain if you were trans or not (at least, that's how I read it). She gave you a softball. She (probably) wanted to see how you reacted to confirm or deny her suspicions, possibly in order to solve a mystery for herself.
If the woman was interested in hurting you, she could have easily done so by loudly asking about your transition, so I don't think that was the intent (Of course, I could be very wrong).
But to the Polyanna in me, the upshot is that you went hiking with a lesbian who knows transgendered people and you passed so freaking well even *she* wasn't certain. Still doesn't excuse her behavior, but perhaps it can soothe the hurt a bit to know that.
*hug*
Agreed with this. I know my being pre-everything places me outside actually having to deal with this yet, but from the impression I get reading the story, she was doing everything she could to be nice while still needing to do something about her curiosity. The comparison to tying to find out another persons orientation is apt I think, as that is a question that must be asked very delicately as well. The ability to ask an indirect question which one group wouldn't catch the meaning of, while the other would know seems to be a nice skill to have when approaching people outside of obvious circumstances. Again that said, it still wasn't the most polite thing to do. To quote Robin again "she was being delicate. Ignorant, but delicate."
I don't intend to hijack the thread but the topic of indirect means of finding out sexual orientation, I once went to the Portland winter beer fest with someone I met through a new hires mailing list at work. It sounded like it was going to be a group of people, but ended up just myself and another guy. We both got rather tipsy and ended up just walking around downtown. Ended up taking a pee break in a bar which on inspection of the mens bathroom advertizing was a gay bar. After leaving I asked if that was a gay bar and it was laughed about and we parted ways. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I figured out that was probably his way of testing his gaydar. You have to be sneaky sometimes in order to not offend someone. :laugh:
Too many great comments to answer them. Thanks for the feedback, everyone who posted.
Quote from: ثنائية بين الجنسين on September 29, 2013, 08:41:56 PM
She didn't outright say it but as far as I'd be concerned I'd rather she'd just asked outright rather than hinting at it.
I agree completely. It may have been indirect, but we both knew she was asking me whether I'm trans.
And I agree with ErinM, Shantel, SamC, MariaMX, Murbella, and Kate G. Whether indirectly or directly, asking a trans person whether they are trans is not polite.
Quote from: -Emily- on September 30, 2013, 03:18:00 AM
Lets see if she is going to invite You over for next event. If yes, then it was a subtle way (at least in her opinion) of hers to let You know and that she is cool with it. If not, then it is the same, except You are not welcome anymore. If they were a nice company, then I hope it will turn out as the former option.
I don't think there was anything malicious about it. I think she was just curious. She was friendly to me the whole time and I picked up no cattiness or ill will.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on September 30, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
It may have made you uncomfortable but it was very mild and, really, if you can't deal with this, some of the other stuff that you're gonna experience will floor you out cold.
Ouch! :o Way harsh! I didn't say I couldn't deal with this. I just asked whether anyone had similar experiences and how they dealt with it.
Quote from: ثنائية بين الجنسين on September 30, 2013, 04:30:17 PM
Otherwise, its only polite to assume they are intending to live in stealth, even if it is plainly obvious that they are failing at it.
Hey!!!! I'll have you know I passed pretty well. Just ask the woman who grinned at me in the women's room when I came out of the toilet stall and saw her toddler-aged daughter playing with the hand dryer. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
A simple no would suffice, and if you're feeling a bit frisky, follow up her question with a question of your own....Like, "Oh, that's a transgender writer, isn't it? Are you a transexual?"
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 30, 2013, 06:38:43 PM
I don't think there was anything malicious about it. I think she was just curious. She was friendly to me the whole time and I picked up no cattiness or ill will.
That's good at least. Sometimes people can be clueless about the etiquette in this situation. She may have thought she was showing acceptance by mentioning it or even simply trying to find common ground thinking if you were trans you probably did know her friend.
I know how demoralizing this can be, but don't let it get you down. There's probably always going to be that one person who will clock you and she's likely attuned to these things being in the gay community and hanging out with trans people. Plus going on a hike and spending the day together, she probably had plenty of opportunities to notice something. It doesn't mean she made you on sight or anything.
Just to clarify my story- the girl reacted to my reaction... she seemed super uncomfortable and must have thought I clocked her and was poorly judging her... i felt bad because she probably went home and got super critical about her look and why she was clocked. But in fact the only reason was teeny tiny and only another ftm could pick it ... so that is the reason I wanted to communicate ' its okay- your totally passing to regular mortals -not a negative- my jolting look wasnt that I am judging you- I am just excited to meet someone like me and reacted as I did.'. Still, there is just no way to approach us as a stranger is there?
Roles switched, I would prefer the mystery clocker introduced themselves as trans and explain rather than me tying myself up in knots wondering why I didnt pass and hating myself. Its a bit like the 'do I pass' part of the forum... we want feedback so I can refine, and have to face the pain of criticism to improve.
So based on the girls reaction, I wanted to say hi. Had I simply clocked her and she not noticed, I certainly wouldn't have approached her... though I am dying to meet other girls like me. :(
Sounds like a great adventure Suzi.
Gay/lesbian people don't have the same problem about clocking one another, since it is necessary in order to get a date or a mate. They often don't understand why it hurts when they clock us too, though they do tend to be understanding about the need to not out others... while sending signals to invite mutual self-disclosure.
One side question for you about the fisherwoman - do you know for certain she was cis? I try not to assume that someone isn't trans just because they are a lesbian and pass superbly. And I would't assume someone is cis just because they are somewhat clueless about trans etiquette. A lot of trans women are. The signal she was sending could have been about herself. If I told a new lesbian friend that I was friends with Autumn Sandeen, or Helen Boyd, for example, I would be potentially outing myself, and certainly inviting that person to tell me if 1) they are aware and open about trans issues, and 2) whether they have clocked me already.
ha, thats an interesting question. How do two women like us meet and out themselves to each other to be able to bond or share experiences when both are putting most value on not outing themselves.
To quote a previous post - we really need a secret handshake LOL
Quote from: MadelineB on October 02, 2013, 02:12:09 AMGay/lesbian people don't have the same problem about clocking one another, since it is necessary in order to get a date or a mate. They often don't understand why it hurts when they clock us too, though they do tend to be understanding about the need to not out others... while sending signals to invite mutual self-disclosure.
This exactly. From her perspective, she would have been following standard queer etiquette. It was sort of like asking, "I recognize you as trans. Are you open about this?" But you said no, so she should drop it.
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 04:07:39 AM
ha, thats an interesting question. How do two women like us meet and out themselves to each other to be able to bond or share experiences when both are putting most value on not outing themselves.
To quote a previous post - we really need a secret handshake LOL
I feel like that sometimes. There is a trans girl who works at a store around the corner--literally 15secs from my front door. But our etiquette dictates that I can't say anything. Oh well.
And in a lot of ways, what the woman asked Suzi WAS a secret handshake.
Quote from: Kate G on September 29, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Because of this I try to avoid gays and lesbians.
That strategy is a little hard to enact when you are one. ;)
Just to go back to the OP, I think people are being unduly unkind about the woman who popped the, 'Do you know Mara Drummond?' question.
She's a bit like someone who has a seat on a crowded subway. There's a woman standing up in front of her. The woman has a large belly. If she's pregnant, the polite thing to do is offer her a seat. But if she isn't, offering her a seat will just emphasis that you think she's incredibly fat.
In this case, the other woman she thought she had read you, but she wasn't sure. She didn't want to come right out and say, 'Are you trans?' because (a) it's pretty intrusive if you are and (b) it would totally piss a cis-woman off (sorry to be blunt, but it would).
On the other hand, maybe she wants you to know that she's cool with people who are transsexuals and might even like to have a conversation about the issue, like I would have conversations about race or religion with friends who are Afro-Caribbean or Muslim (or Jewish, or whatever). Or maybe she just wants to know a fact about you which will have some influence on the way she conducts a conversation - if only because she might be more sensitive to your feelings as a transsexual once she knows what the situation really is. OK, so this is a little patronising. But her intentions could be perfectly good and respectful.
Her problem, though, is: "How do I open the conversation without saying something blatant?"
By saying that she knows Mara Drummond she's dropping a hint, hoping you'll respond with the information she wants.
This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people. For example, two attractive strangers meet in a bar. Things seem to be going well. It's not going to be long before each starts trying to figure out whether the other one is single and/or available. Or ... Two guys have a conversation. One is straight, but he's not sure if the other is gay. Even if he's not remotely homophobic, he might try to get a clue or two - again, just to make sure he doesn't inadvertently say the wrong thing.
There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.
Of course you make a lot of sense Carlita and so do many other apologists for the woman in question, just the same no two tg people will internalize what her intent may have been in the same way and so it is really best for anyone reading another to simply avoid the impulse to say anything unless the tg person has given them a clear signal that it's ok which would usually entail them initiating that conversation themselves.
I was conversing with a cis woman over an issue she had with her house and noticed that she had a nice tan and she appeared to have a baby bubble, so being my usual perky self trying to make small talk to break the ice I commented about her nice tan and since it was winter made the assumption that she had been to Hawaii recently like so many people here in the NW do. She said, "No this isn't a tan, I'm black!" Then feeling foolish I tried to change the subject and said, "How soon are you due, is this your first?" She said, "I'm not pregnant, I'm just fat!" So now that I've shared my most classic foot-in-mouth faux pas, you can clearly see how this translates to the issue here.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 30, 2013, 06:38:43 PM
Ouch! :o Way harsh! I didn't say I couldn't deal with this. I just asked whether anyone had similar experiences and how they dealt with it.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh but being able to 'deal with it' in my book is not letting it affect you so, we just had a difference of opinion as to what that phrase means, as far as I can tell.
Being trans, openly or not, is a tough row to hoe and experiencing discomfort at things like this is just kind of a given. While I do understand the need to bounce things like this off your support network, my opinion is that, if you're going to try to do stealth (which you seem to be unless I'm mistaking your post), one needs to be prepared for people who have their radars set to super sensitive. I know that opinion isn't likely to be popular here but I've personally found that being unflappable in the face of things like that is the better course of action. Then again, I'm 100% full time and also 100% open about it so, I've built up a lot of endurance for the curiosity and/or judgements of others.
I still think the unwritten rule of not asking is probably not known by the large percentage of the world. I think you need to be familiar with trans spaces to have learned that. A curious person asking what they consider a polite question probably thinks they're on safe ice. Just my opinion, hugs, Devlyn
Thinking again of this - I think there was not that much wrong with what she did. I mean if she did "read" you thats one thing - it happens. Now she can be silent on it or if she is interested she may want to drop a hint that she is ok with that. The third option of course is that she is unsure and wants to go fishing. In any case she leaves it up to you how to react.
i mean I had occasions where someone told me "the others think you may have been a man [sic], but it as you are a lesbian, I thought that you are like that because of that. Are the others right?" . In that case I said "no", basically lied, but I did not want to deal with it at that time. On other occasions I may be a bit mysterius, like if someone tells me that she thinks my hormones are off because I have such a deep voice and sort of asks how that could be as I surely must have noticed and sought help ... thats the fishing thing again. I then try to be as fuzzy in my replies. Like yes I do have homrone issues but I am in treatment now. No need to lie there ;) - She is not smarter after that of course...
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 01:01:00 PM
"the others think you may have been a man [sic], but it as you are a lesbian, I thought that you are like that because of that. Are the others right?" . In that case I said "no", basically lied, but I did not want to deal with it at that time.
TS ≠ 'a man'.
If someone asks "hey, are you trans?", that's a different story but asking if I am or ever was a dude, and I can say 'nope!' with no lie in my heart or mind. Just my 2¢, there.
Thats of course true, Victoria. Now I would not condider it a lie either. Back then i was less into semantics and just considered the meaning. I dont know atm if my friend there asked me the question differently herself, if she used different words, but yeah I was SO read there and denied it, that was odd. I must say if I had known then that this friendship lasts up to now, I am not sure I had said that. I think she still suspects and maybe is a bit distanced at times because I did not tell her back then.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be harsh but being able to 'deal with it' in my book is not letting it affect you so, we just had a difference of opinion as to what that phrase means, as far as I can tell.
Well it hasn't affected me much at all.I was asking more about how I should deal with this socially. Perhaps unlike you, I do not think well on my feet and am kind of socially clueless a lot of the time, so having feedback helps me know how to react the next time it happens.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 02, 2013, 12:09:33 PM
While I do understand the need to bounce things like this off your support network, my opinion is that, if you're going to try to do stealth (which you seem to be unless I'm mistaking your post), one needs to be prepared for people who have their radars set to super sensitive.
Stealth? Gawd no. Everyone at works knows who I was, as do all my friends.
But when I'm in new spaces, I would like to be seen as a cis woman, or at the very least someone about whom they aren't sure. I've been successful with this and it seems to work better when people interact with me as they would any other woman.
I agree that I need to be prepared for people with sensitive radars. That's what this post was about. How do I preserve the ambiguity until I'm ready to disclose who I am?
Quote from: Carlita on October 02, 2013, 10:56:56 AM
Just to go back to the OP, I think people are being unduly unkind about the woman who popped the, 'Do you know Mara Drummond?' question.
She's a bit like someone who has a seat on a crowded subway. There's a woman standing up in front of her. The woman has a large belly. If she's pregnant, the polite thing to do is offer her a seat. But if she isn't, offering her a seat will just emphasis that you think she's incredibly fat.
In this case, the other woman she thought she had read you, but she wasn't sure. She didn't want to come right out and say, 'Are you trans?' because (a) it's pretty intrusive if you are and (b) it would totally piss a cis-woman off (sorry to be blunt, but it would).
On the other hand, maybe she wants you to know that she's cool with people who are transsexuals and might even like to have a conversation about the issue, like I would have conversations about race or religion with friends who are Afro-Caribbean or Muslim (or Jewish, or whatever). Or maybe she just wants to know a fact about you which will have some influence on the way she conducts a conversation - if only because she might be more sensitive to your feelings as a transsexual once she knows what the situation really is. OK, so this is a little patronising. But her intentions could be perfectly good and respectful.
Her problem, though, is: "How do I open the conversation without saying something blatant?"
By saying that she knows Mara Drummond she's dropping a hint, hoping you'll respond with the information she wants.
This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people. For example, two attractive strangers meet in a bar. Things seem to be going well. It's not going to be long before each starts trying to figure out whether the other one is single and/or available. Or ... Two guys have a conversation. One is straight, but he's not sure if the other is gay. Even if he's not remotely homophobic, he might try to get a clue or two - again, just to make sure he doesn't inadvertently say the wrong thing.
There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.
I dont think its possible to read anybodies persons responses and motives. She may have done so for many reasons. I think it is quite rude to ask if someone is trans directly or indirectly regardless if the assumption is correct. Its demeaning if shes right or wrong about the assumption.
Quote from: suzifrommd on October 02, 2013, 05:35:52 PM
How do I preserve the ambiguity until I'm ready to disclose who I am?
Ah, well if that's the query, my general response would be to expect that it won't be ambiguous all the time and, if it comes up, try to just let it roll. When it's happened to me, I get a twitch of "*sigh* well, this is annoying" and then just pop open the can by going forward rather than back.
If I'd have been in the situation, I probably would have just said something to the effect of "If you're trying to very carefully ask me if I'm trans, the answer is 'yeah' but, it's not a big thing. Do you have questions or were you just curious about me? I don't really think about it all that much."
My reasoning is that I really *don't* think about it all that much nor do I let it affect me. It's just something that is, same as the tinnitus in my ear. It's annoying and sometimes drives me effin nuts but, after a while, I've let it just fade into the background noise of my life. If you're not there yet, then that's cool but you'll get uncomfortable when this happens and there's no two ways around that. Getting defensive doesn't work, going passive doesn't work either because they'll just read that as you being afraid to tell and you'll get the "she totally used to be a man" chatter behind your back... which sucks worse. I find that it's best to just open the can of worms and, if your relationship with the person improves during the conversation, you could mention that it tends to make trans peeps really uncomfortable to be asked about it as it's kind of forcing them out before they're ready.
Quote from: izzy on October 02, 2013, 05:53:22 PM
I dont think its possible to read anybodies persons responses and motives. She may have done so for many reasons. I think it is quite rude to ask if someone is trans directly or indirectly regardless if the assumption is correct. Its demeaning if shes right or wrong about the assumption.
Yeah, it's rude but most people don't really know that it's rude nor do they know why. As far as demeaning to a cis chick? Well, maybe but that'd be on the question's target too wouldn't it?
I think that a lot of this is centered around your comfort with yourself in the reality of your situation. If you're trans, you're trans and there's no getting around it. If you're a blocky woman with a wide chest, that too is what it is and being hyper defensive about having a largeish body type is kinda pointless.
Again, just my 2¢.
yeah weird... When I transitioned, I thought I would be open more or less. As in if someone asks me, I would tell outright. Over the years that attitude has faded, in part because no one ever asked directly anymore and I did not want to go and answer "why do you have such a low voice" with "oh, its because i am transsexual". It would have been odd. So I guess I slipped into an attempt to go stealth and now I dont really know if there is this chatter behind my back or not :/ and if people ask me directly I am not daring anymore to speak out. My "trans pride" in the sense that I talk to people about it openly has disappeared it seems. In part because I found that if I tell one person, everyone soon knows and not all of them are as cool with it as that one person and I also did not have the chance to talk to them and maybe answer their questions, so they are unanswered (like "does she have a vagina?",...).
I'm early in my transition, starting my sixth month on HRT and being neither, here, nor there, I get stared at, often. Many people have seen me on talk-shows, or our local news talking about my transition, so, I make eye contact and start a dialogue. Most people have never spoken knowingly to a transgender person and I feel it's important to win hearts and minds. However...
I'm increasingly growing tired of people, including my doctor friends, asking about what I'm going to do with my genitals. I know that I'll never have any chance at a normal life, something that's eluded me for the past five decades, unless I go stealth once I have my facial fem surgery and go full time. It's not a happy thought that I have to leave my home and start anew, but being a human curiosity isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I feel that any admission of your trans status will open me up to more of the same. And let's not forget the difficulty it will cause with dating. Sure, it's important to be honest with your partner, especially if you're dating men, but I wouldn't want to put them through the whisper campaign calling into question their masculinity for dating me.
Then again, how will we ever become equal, if we're not out? How can we break down the stereotype if we're not open about our struggle. ???
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 29, 2013, 04:04:53 PM
Nothing earth shaking, but left a strange taste so I wanted other people's impression.
I went on a hike with a lesbian meetup with four other women . I had a great time. They were super interesting people and we went out for lunch afterward.
During lunch, the lady who organized it told me I looked familiar, and asked me if I knew Mara Drummond.
(Mara Drummond is a transgender author who lives in our local community. I haven't actually ever met her.)
I'm convinced she read me as trans.
I tried to hide my surprise. I said no, I didn't know Mara Drummond, but the name sounded familiar. (The truth, though maybe a tad incomplete).
A couple minutes later, I casually asked what made her think I would know Mara Drummond.
"I hang out with her sometimes, and I thought I might have known you from that", was the answer. "She has a lot of tall friends and you're tall."
Aside from disappointment at not passing (though I did spend all morning with the woman, so there was a lot of opportunity to spot stuff, and it was for lesbians so they're probably more sensitive to this sort of thing), I thought it was kind of intrusive to as me about being trans, even really obliquely. I mean, I'm glad she didn't just say it straight out, but I thought this indirect reference was wasn't that much of an improvement.
This is the second time in as many weeks, that someone asked me whether I was trans by asking if I know so-and-so, who was an out transwoman.
Have others had similar experiences? How would you handle this?
Honestly, this might be getting widely over thought, too. If she had asked me if I knew some obviously well known trans woman in the community, I'd just simply say no if I didn't or yes if I did. She might have honestly thought she would have met you through that woman, not that she thought you were trans and all trans people have this hidden bond of sisterhood. She's lesbian herself, I'm guessing naturally born female, she said she knew her. All this seems to be formulated from an assumption off of the typical constant fear of getting clocked. Honestly, I don't think you just got clocked. And you shouldn't react that way unless it is thrown in your face. "You're a trans"
Calm down!
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 03, 2013, 01:52:56 PM
Honestly, this might be getting widely over thought, too. If she had asked me if I knew some obviously well known trans woman in the community, I'd just simply say no if I didn't or yes if I did. She might have honestly thought she would have met you through that woman, not that she thought you were trans and all trans people have this hidden bond of sisterhood. She's lesbian herself, I'm guessing naturally born female, she said she knew her. All this seems to be formulated from an assumption off of the typical constant fear of getting clocked. Honestly, I don't think you just got clocked. And you shouldn't react that way unless it is thrown in your face. "You're a trans"
Calm down!
She seems quite calm to me. She was simply sharing her experience and asking for others to collaborate their own insights. She wasn't seeking to have someone tell her to completely dismiss her intuition or tell her how to feel, at least not that I am aware of.
Quote from: Kate G on October 03, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
She seems quite calm to me. She was simply sharing her experience and asking for others to collaborate their own insights. She wasn't seeking to have someone tell her to completely dismiss her intuition or tell her how to feel, at least not that I am aware of.
That was more at people talking about hating people who do that- not specifically to her post.
Quote from: DrZoey on October 03, 2013, 12:58:47 PM
I'm early in my transition, starting my sixth month on HRT and being neither, here, nor there, I get stared at, often. Many people have seen me on talk-shows, or our local news talking about my transition, so, I make eye contact and start a dialogue. Most people have never spoken knowingly to a transgender person and I feel it's important to win hearts and minds. However...
I'm increasingly growing tired of people, including my doctor friends, asking about what I'm going to do with my genitals. I know that I'll never have any chance at a normal life, something that's eluded me for the past five decades, unless I go stealth once I have my facial fem surgery and go full time. It's not a happy thought that I have to leave my home and start anew, but being a human curiosity isn't all that it's cracked up to be. I feel that any admission of your trans status will open me up to more of the same. And let's not forget the difficulty it will cause with dating. Sure, it's important to be honest with your partner, especially if you're dating men, but I wouldn't want to put them through the whisper campaign calling into question their masculinity for dating me.
Then again, how will we ever become equal, if we're not out? How can we break down the stereotype if we're not open about our struggle. ???
My 2¢: Trust me, people eventually get over it and you'll stop being interesting in a while. Regarding the questions about your junk: umm, if you want to be out and trans, you're really going to have to take things a little more easily. Fortunately, like the peoples reactions to you, you'll eventually get used to it and be able to shrug it off with nary a bad feeling.
Quote from: Carlita on October 02, 2013, 10:56:56 AM
This might seem intrusive - and, yes, what the hell business is it of hers, anyway - but we all use hints and tricks to find out private stuff about other people.
...
There's so much genuine hatred and genuine offensiveness towards us, perhaps we should be gentler on those who mean no harm, but just don't quite say the things we'd like them to ... Tolerance cuts both ways, after all.
Quote from: anjaq on October 02, 2013, 01:01:00 PM
Thinking again of this - I think there was not that much wrong with what she did.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 02, 2013, 06:52:33 PM
Yeah, it's rude but most people don't really know that it's rude nor do they know why.
I definitely found these posts food for thought. What she did was not awful, not hateful, not transphobic, not anything that would make me think less of her. In fact I did send her a PM telling her how much I enjoyed the outing and thanking her for organizing it.
But should she have known not to comment on it?
I liken it to someone who has a physical characteristic that they've obviously taken great pains to hide. For example a facial blemish that has taken copious layers of makeup, sparse hair covered up by a wig, someone wearing long sleeves to cover up a burn, etc.
Most people would agree that decorum dictates being silent. Even if you feel like you're doing them a favor by letting them know that their concealment job is not complete. Especially at a table full of people (where the OP took place) where she would be calling attention to whatever is being concealed.
Note that this just makes her a little indecorous, not evil, not sociopathic, not transphobic etc. I still plan on being friendly if I see her again (though if we become friends, I may point out the faux pas sometime.)
Here's my takeaway from this discussion and situation:
1. If I hang around LGBT folks, I should expect to be read. I only pass well to people who are not used to trans folks.
2. Asking whether I'm transgender, however it is done, is intrusive but forgivable.
3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.
Here's what I going to do next time someone asks me that:
I'll answer "Where would I know her from?"
If they give a straight answer, like "she goes to the xxx meetup", if I really do know her from there, I'll answer directly. If not, I'll say "I don't know any <name> from that meetup."
If they just say something like, "she seems like your kind of person" I will ask in the most lighthearted way I can manage, "Do you always ask people whether they know random friends of yours?" Does tend to violate my rule about always trying to help people feel comfortable in my company, but given that their question is intrusive, I feel kind of justified.
In none of these cases am I lying, but I neither confirm nor deny that I know the person.
Quote from: suzifrommd on October 07, 2013, 11:12:14 AM
Here's my takeaway from this discussion and situation:
1. If I hang around LGBT folks, I should expect to be read. I only pass well to people who are not used to trans folks.
2. Asking whether I'm transgender, however it is done, is intrusive but forgivable.
3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.
Here's what I going to do next time someone asks me that:
I'll answer "Where would I know her from?"
If they give a straight answer, like "she goes to the xxx meetup", if I really do know her from there, I'll answer directly. If not, I'll say "I don't know any <name> from that meetup."
If they just say something like, "she seems like your kind of person" I will ask in the most lighthearted way I can manage, "Do you always ask people whether they know random friends of yours?" Does tend to violate my rule about always trying to help people feel comfortable in my company, but given that their question is intrusive, I feel kind of justified.
In none of these cases am I lying, but I neither confirm nor deny that I know the person.
I really think you should also consider the highly likely situation where you are misinterpreting her intentions or thoughts. It's one thing to 'feel' like it was them reading you, or intruding for information but WHAT IF they were honestly trying to settle a random memory of you? It might not seem plausible to you, because the way transsexuals tend to think is that people are always going to think about who is reading them, or who is noticing them and THAT is usually what ends up outing them to begin with. I've seen time and time again, pff. In high school it happens daily where people will ask if you know a certain friend because they recognize you, or a teacher. If she knows you are an active member of the LGBT community then of course, she might try to correlate you back to a big figurehead in the community that she knows. So, since she knows this trans individual, does that suddenly mean she's coming out as transsexual? You've got to look at it from other perspectives too.
Just my thoughts.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 07, 2013, 11:22:58 AM
I really think you should also consider the highly likely situation where you are misinterpreting her intentions or thoughts.
Certainly worth considering. Highly likely? Not sure how you arrive at that assessment.
I'm pretty certain I understood what she was asking me. Especially given what she said about "you're tall and she has a lot of tall friends". As for the guy that asked me something similar the week before, with him I talked about it so I know for a fact he read me as trans.
Quote from: suzifrommd on October 07, 2013, 11:12:14 AM
3. MOST IMPORTANT: Because I don't think well on my feet, I need to be prepared when someone asks me "Do you know <name>?" to see if I'm trans. I need to find an answer that doesn't lie outright but also doesn't tell them more than I want to.
One thing that strikes me about the kinds of responses you listed is that they can be taken as you being a bit defensive about the subject. The person's curiosity might then get raised and you want to avoid doing that.
A way to deal with these kinds of questions might be to come up with some kind of a casual offhand response followed by a deft redirect in the conversation - something like "no, i've never heard of that person before - and hey, i've been meaning to ask you about.....". This redirects the focus of the conversation back onto the person who asked the question and it dismisses the offending question at the same time. By the time that the person realizes that you completely avoided the question it will be far to late and very awkward to reintroduce it again.
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 08, 2013, 07:50:58 AM
One thing that strikes me about the kinds of responses you listed is that they can be taken as you being a bit defensive about the subject.
I think I'd be ok if I think deeply for a few seconds before asking "where would I know her from?" Sounds then like I'm trying to recall.
The later answer "Do you always..." is definitely evasive.
Quote from: Eva Marie on October 08, 2013, 07:50:58 AM
A way to deal with these kinds of questions might be to come up with some kind of a casual offhand response followed by a deft redirect in the conversation - something like "no, i've never heard of that person before - and hey, i've been meaning to ask you about.....".
I really wouldn't want to lie, especially if it came out later on that I did know that person.
Now that I am going out more often with gender-correct presentation (leaving the man clothes behind) and getting better with makeup, I seem to be passing more often, and I can definitely empathize more with the original post. Before, I really couldn't pass at all, now I get barely a second glance as I walk into the lady's room (and my wonderful girlfriend reminds me that a lot of those second glances are because I am beautiful and tall ;) I love her so!).
But last night, shopping for bras, a lady from the women's department walked up to me to tell me I had a sticker on my sweater. I thanked her (my voice is still not passable without tons of effort, and I was tired). She then asked me if I ever went to <insert gay bar here>. I told her "occasionally" and she got an "I knew it!" look on her face and walked off.
I could have been devastated, but then I stood back from myself and thought, "OK, so here this woman has had at least sixty years of being female, and *she* wasn't sure about a 6'4" woman with an adam's apple the size of a walnut. I must be doing *something* right!"
Still a bit shaken, but I was able to take some hope from the experience...
And now I, too, should probably start working on prepared answers... :)
Thank you so much for this thread, Suzi... so much great discussion has come from it! :)
At a party before xmas last year a female guest all of a sudden asked me loudly if x, y or z was my previous name. This she asked me so that everyone could hear. My reply was "No, not true", but I wish I would have countered her question by asking if it was 20, 25, 39 or 57 abortions she had had in the past. Cis-people asking inappropriate questions in public, or private for that matter, infuriates me to the point of wanting to strangle them....literally.
OMG!!!!!!
This situation is a little different but my methods can be used by anyone successfully. I am occasionally asked if I am male or female, MtF or Ftm, straight or lesbian due to my generally androgynous presentation and depending on the source, time or place and I find that answering a question with another question is always offsetting. A good response to a cis person is, "What do you think, are you male or female?" It throws them for a loop! When it's coming from another trans person I usually say, "Your choice!" Either way it clearly signals that the conversation is over.