now no one has ever called me gay or bi because no one has ever thought about me that way. I know I want to have sex with a man and be the bottom. some people would call this gay or bi. I don't like that idea. the idea of being called gay bothers me because I don't feel like a gay man. Has anyone had these issues prior to transitioning? I know I need to see and talk to someone. just trying to get some more insight from everyone
Sounds like internal homophobia to me. So I'm a lesbian now who occasionally fantasizes about Dave Navarro. Once you're out as trans, you're already beyond queer anyway. Embrace it.
Jill is right baby. If you are MtF this will be a subject you will have to make peace with yourself. I always since age 7 felt like a female in a male body. As such I only had sex later in life with females as it was demanded by parents, friends, etc. Since starting HRT I have found my attraction is toward men. I do not know if this was buried under the intense programming I was subjected to all of the years past or my true need. I have finally accepted this fact and made peace with it. You really have to get over the "what does everyone else think" mentality. You will not be able to transition, if that is your plan, without acceptance of who you are. Hope this helps some. PM me if you need to talk more about this. BIG HUG!! :)
Remember, you're not actually gay if you're MTF.
I used to consider myself quite straight (apart from kissing a few male friends while drunk for a laugh).
When I started transitioning I thought I would be gay, but it turns out out that Channing Tatum and Kit Harington decided I wasn't allowed to be 100% lesbian, now I don't really care who I like or what people label me as. I'm just me and thats that.
You can be gay/straight/everything in between, even change your mind if you want! It doesn't matter what other people think, you're you, thats all that counts and that's fantastic!
Quote from: Jill F on October 22, 2013, 11:12:47 AM
So I'm a lesbian now who occasionally fantasizes about Dave Navarro.
Hadn't seen any pics of him since starting hrt, I see what you mean! (shame he only did One Hot Minute with the Chilis, it was awesome and they got a bit gish after that...)
That was a strange topic when I was young! As a supposed male, attracted to boys, a shrink pronounced me Gay to my parents at age 15 even though I told him I was/needed to be a girl - but that was the 1950s and shrinks are idiots anyway LOL! Most people just didn't get that being transsexual was about your relationship with YOURSELF, not about who you are attracted to.
It was bloody awkward because there was a boy I was very much in love with at 13 who was also very attracted to me but he was so afraid of being labelled "Gay" that he would never do anything about it and that was an incredible tension we lived with for nearly 10 years.
I always considered myself straight (as a girl) and found the idea of being with another girl strange, very unpalatable. That didn't happen until a couple of years after transition and SRS and involved a large amount of alcohol. That REALLY threw me for a loop and took me a long time to adjust to but I came to realize that my sexuality wasn't as "hard and fast" as I thought. I am still 95% attracted to guys but I have my weak moments LOL! Really, there is a world of difference between being with a man and being with another woman. I find the former to be HOT and the latter to be very tender with a different type of intimacy.
Quote from: kg85621 on October 22, 2013, 11:05:02 AM
now no one has ever called me gay or bi because no one has ever thought about me that way. I know I want to have sex with a man and be the bottom. some people would call this gay or bi. I don't like that idea. the idea of being called gay bothers me because I don't feel like a gay man. Has anyone had these issues prior to transitioning? I know I need to see and talk to someone. just trying to get some more insight from everyone
That's the important part, hon. Sometimes how we see ourselves is so out of kilter with the way our current anatomy suggests we should be, that it's these cues that one should listen to in our own minds when determining who we actually are.
Suppose you took the word "gay" out of the emboldened sentence, would it still hold true?
Lesbian, Gay, Bi... doesn't really matter to me. I'm trans, but my sexuality has moved from straight-(as male) to curious-(as female).
Personally, I hope they're thinking I'm questioning or coming out gay... it will make coming out transgender easier (it worked with family... and will probably work at work too). I'm not actively looking for that title... but most people won't assume I'm part of the transgender label, at least not without passing through the gay label first.
If you're MTF, you're not a "gay man"....
I know I am not. I'm a bi-sexual woman, who tends to lean more toward straight. Once in a while a woman will attract me, but most of the time I am drooling over straight guys :)
I have a lot of male gay friends, but I don't find them attractive, and never have. I am not attracted to gay men, likely because I am not one. I am a woman.
Quote from: Jill F on October 22, 2013, 11:12:47 AMOnce you're out as trans, you're already beyond queer anyway. Embrace it.
This is the quote of the week for me. If being called "gay" was the worst thing I had to worry about, I'd be elated! :)
Worrying about your sexuality is so overrated ;)
I was labelled gay throughout high school and middle school, I didn't really know why. I do have some sexual attraction to men, but overall I have very little sexual attraction at all. I only found out a week ago that our was due to my feminine mannerisms and body language that I was totally unaware of. For at least that reason, it makes me happy because period see me as somewhat feminine. It does make me upset when I say something like I don't like Taylor Swift's music, and I get a reply like "imfg you don't think Taylor Swift is hot you're not a real man you must be gay"
So, overall, I don't mind it right now. It's just a label, labels can be replaced, and I'm looking at doing so right now.
There are many misconceptions in the more *ignorant* community that confuses gender with orientation *mostly in the gay community* but instead of asking *whats your orientation?* (for the purpose of NOT misplacing someone and over all knowledge) they automatically place one into a group.This is higher among the Trans* community because many look at physical appearance.Aside from the fact that MtF are less accepted because society teachs us HOW a *real male* should be (which is messed up mind you) I myself know for a fact that i am straight as a FtM,and that i am just in the wrong body-period and my thoughts on anyone who says other wise is *knowledge is power* All that matters is whats up here *taps his brain* whats between your legs does not determine your orientation or your *real* gender (in my opinion)
It doesn't bother me when I am called gay, people have called me that my whole life. I really don't like labels though and I find it weird when I talk to other trans women and they are like oh your straight? And ask me all kinds of questions about what it's like to be attracted to men. But overall I am a woman but I don't mind people thinking I'm gay I don't see it as a negative as some people do. ;)
I dont care that I am seen as gay... I just dont like it when my straight boyfriends get that label. That sucks. I have thick skin. And this also makes it hard to get into serious relationships with men.
Quote from: Heather on October 22, 2013, 02:42:28 PM
It doesn't bother me when I am called gay, people have called me that my whole life. I really don't like labels though and I find it weird when I talk to other trans women and they are like oh your straight? And ask me all kinds of questions about what it's like to be attracted to men. But overall I am a woman but I don't mind people thinking I'm gay I don't see it as a negative as some people do. ;)
Those trans women may be questioning... I might ask the same thing (I wouldn't... but I could) because I think that maybe I am... just that I'm not. That doesn't make any sense - but it's how my mind works on my own sexuality right now. It's something I'll experiment with (alone :p) but also something that needs to take the way-way-back seat on my transition bus.
Quote from: Chaos on October 22, 2013, 02:29:42 PM
There are many misconceptions in the more *ignorant* community that confuses gender with orientation *mostly in the gay community* but instead of asking *whats your orientation?* (for the purpose of NOT misplacing someone and over all knowledge) they automatically place one into a group.This is higher among the Trans* community because many look at physical appearance.Aside from the fact that MtF are less accepted because society teachs us HOW a *real male* should be (which is messed up mind you) I myself know for a fact that i am straight as a FtM,and that i am just in the wrong body-period and my thoughts on anyone who says other wise is *knowledge is power* All that matters is whats up here *taps his brain* whats between your legs does not determine your orientation or your *real* gender (in my opinion)
This whole "real male" and "masculine ideal" business, and the fact that femininity is a negative trait, are the things I hate about modern western society. Still... women have it better here than in most places in the world.
I had a funny moment early on with my mom where she said she did wonder if I was gay when I was younger, and I pointed out that I *am,* just not how she thought. :) (I'm actually bisexual, but it's easier to let her think I'm lesbian than explain that too - and it's moot as I'm married.)
Quote from: kabit on October 22, 2013, 03:46:42 PM
Those trans women may be questioning... I might ask the same thing (I wouldn't... but I could) because I think that maybe I am... just that I'm not. That doesn't make any sense - but it's how my mind works on my own sexuality right now. It's something I'll experiment with (alone :p) but also something that needs to take the way-way-back seat on my transition bus.
This whole "real male" and "masculine ideal" business, and the fact that femininity is a negative trait, are the things I hate about modern western society. Still... women have it better here than in most places in the world.
Well most of them are just curious and most would never dream of being with a man. And btw I don't mind answering questions I just find the whole "She's straight" thing I always hear funny. Especially after I spent most of my youth wondering if I was gay because of my attraction to men. :P
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 22, 2013, 02:04:37 PM
Worrying about your sexuality is so overrated ;)
Right? XD Less labels, more dancing, girls!
However, I'll admit that, when you're early in transition, you're scared, your situation is very unstable, you don't know what to do, not only have you got a lot of real-life issues, but a bunch of crap inside of you, as a result of living for I don't know, 5-10-15-20 years in a male role, and as a result you can get pretty upset by people calling you gay, or even get intimidated by effeminate gay men as they may be more feminine than you are, but you know what? It gets better and you will be laughing soon at that :D
Quote from: crowcrow223 on October 22, 2013, 05:18:27 PM
Right? XD Less labels, more dancing, girls!
I liked the rest of your post too... but I couldn't help but think that if you'd lose a comma you'd have your sexuality all figured out.
Less labels, more dancing girls!
Quote from: kabit on October 22, 2013, 03:46:42 PM
This whole "real male" and "masculine ideal" business, and the fact that femininity is a negative trait, are the things I hate about modern western society. Still... women have it better here than in most places in the world.
i agree 100% and thats what i ment.
I know what you mean. When I was a kid, I struggled with my sexuality as well as my gender issues. To be honest, I don't care about someone being gay or not. I'm a huge supporter of lgbt rights which should be obvious, lol. However, it never felt right to label myself as gay because of my attraction to men. Sure, I like guys, but that wasn't the main issue at all and doesn't define my identity in any way. I just never felt like a gay man or straight man. It's not me. What's important is you find out what these feelings mean for you. There are many reasons why you may feel the way you do and it's best that you discover why this is bothering you. Are there other reasons why you feel being labeled as a gay man isn't right? What about being labelled as a man? How does that make you feel?
I don't mind if people question, or unsure of, my sexual orientation. What bothers me is when I get treated as though I'm not a woman, but rather, a really gay man. Think "gay-bff-girlfriend" type. I do understand its difficult for many to separate gender and sexuality, but it always leaves me knotted with stress and frustration.
Of course... I would like to leave a margin of error on behalf of my own paranoid over-analysis :p
Hi KG. As others have said, you're a girl in a guy's body. That's it.
So you're a girl and you're sexually attracted to men, so your straight. And I'm a woman who's sexually attracted to women, so I'm lesbian. It seems there's a fairly large number of transwomen who have felt the way you do, and a lot of them spent years struggling with their GID and sexual orientation at the same time. At least until they discovered, or admitted they were transgender. Since I never went through that mental maze I can't judge you or anyone else who has to rationalize their own transgender and gay issues while avoiding stereotypes. But I could talk for hours about being a transgender monogamous lesbian. (Hint - not much fun with a wife who's not lesbian.)
Hey, at one time I thought "Maybe I'm gay", but I wasn't attracted to men so it didn't make scense. And so I really don't know how you feel, and I'm not going to try and guess. All I can tell you is maybe you don't need to worry about sexual orientation right now since transition is going to change everything about how you view yourself, and how others see you. You know, "gender and sex are not the same", but they can both screw with our lives at the same time.
Hugs
I've said it once and I'll say it again, when I was growing up, if you were transsexual, you were automatically gay. At least, that's what I thought or that's what the media thought. It almost makes sense. I always considered myself a "straight" person. I have been taking hormones a number of years but have not yet gone full time. Since then I've noticed more things than I have before. I'll tell you, I do have a crush on Johnny Wier. ;)
Nothing wrong with either one, but they are completely different, I've always fantasized about men, but specifically as a women with them. Female brain + male body Doesn't equal male brain + male body.
Anyone disagrees with you, that's a problem with their IQ.
As others said, if you are a woman (whether you be cis or trans) and you are attracted to men then you are straight. It really is that simple. I myself (a MtF transsexual woman) consider myself to be "homoflexible". I primarily like women and I can only see myself in long term relationships with them, but there are a few men (usually very pretty boys) who turn my crank.
If I was straight (into men) and someone labeled me as gay I would take offense because it is saying I am a man and that label would be erasing my gender.
I balk at attaching a particular label to myself, but I like to refer to the Kinsey scale and say I'm somewhere in the middle, even though it wasn't designed for the transgendered. It seems like the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid is newer and shinier and takes into account more variables in orientation, but I'm not as familiar with it. I guess it depends on whether you want to restrict yourself to narrowly prescribed boxes of homogeneity for categorizing yourself. Still, it seems to me like it's easier to tell open minded people you are Bi if you are anywhere in the middle than explain. You can also tell people "I'm attracted to women." and neglect to mention that your also attracted to men, or vice versa. It can be simpler to just round toward your dominant attraction.
I think what is more important than the genitals of a partner, is that they treat and view me as I want them to. You can choose to view yourself as you wish, however the entire goal of transitioning is to make your body match your mind. It only makes sense to me to view yourself from the perspective of being a woman KG, i.e. you'd either identify as straight, lesbian or bi.
I had no emotional or sexual desire for a long time. I recently met a person who had feminized charm and masculine charisma. Well, I was surprised to feel the desire
To me there is a huge difference between a gay male and a mtf transsexual... Yes its true that both are attracted to men but there is an internal and emotional difference as well as physical n spiritual but I have a lot of gay n bi male friends n they always tell me that they see me as a girl or a sis n their eyes n can't see me any other way..... But I tell ppl all the time, especially the men that try n date me, that same exact thing
Quote from: ChicanaLuv on October 27, 2013, 12:44:50 AM
To me there is a huge difference between a gay male and a mtf transsexual... Yes its true that both are attracted to men but there is an internal and emotional difference as well as physical n spiritual but I have a lot of gay n bi male friends n they always tell me that they see me as a girl or a sis n their eyes n can't see me any other way..... But I tell ppl all the time, especially the men that try n date me, that same exact thing
I'm MTF and I'm
not attracted to men. Lesbian trans women exist.
That may be true but I was speaking in general because the majority mtf trans women I kno are attracted to men so I was just using opinion from my experiences....I hope I didn't offend at all :(
Quote from: ChicanaLuv on October 27, 2013, 01:18:50 AM
That may be true but I was speaking in general because the majority mtf trans women I kno are attracted to men so I was just using opinion from my experiences....I hope I didn't offend at all :(
No offence taken, just that most of the trans women I know IRL are all lesbians..
Well I applaud yu both for being yu...like we say in my culture "Al fin es todo lo que importa" means at the end of the day that is all that matters :)
N she didnt even kno yu Emily?
N yu shouldnt care jus b yu sweetie n keep doing yu tell the haters "swerve" and ignore the ignorant :) they either get wit it or get lost in that order
Indeed, I'm still living as apparently gay, I'm just not a gay *man.* :) I actually ran into quite a few trans women early on who told me that I wasn't trans if I wasn't straight (=didn't want a man), though. It was a bit frustrating.
It does neatly sidestep the issue of whether I belong in the LGB(T) group, at least. :)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on October 27, 2013, 11:50:56 AM
Indeed, I'm still living as apparently gay, I'm just not a gay *man.* :) I actually ran into quite a few trans women early on who told me that I wasn't trans if I wasn't straight (=didn't want a man), though. It was a bit frustrating.
It does neatly sidestep the issue of whether I belong in the LGB(T) group, at least. :)
It seems to me that being gay/straight/bi is separate from being transgendered. People that say otherwise, whether cis or transgendered, are misinformed IMO. It's a bit unfair to judge someone with gender dysphoria on both sides of the gender coin. Yet I have also come to realize that there are as many misguided transmen and transwomen as there are biased cisgendered. People are flawed, and prone to misjudge what they don't understand, even if they should know better.
I dont mind that I am compared to gay men. I know a few and I do recognise myself in them to a certain degree.
Some of them are naturally feminine too.
It kills me that I am associated with tough straight men that become woman. I have a VERY hard time living
with that false association.
Obfuskatie (I love your name, btw!), this is very true. It bugged me when I was naive enough to wonder if they were right, but these days I mostly roll my eyes. :) Personally, I totally agree that orientation and gender are separate - except insofar as one's own gender can define how *other* people see one's orientation (that didn't apply for me because I'm bi, but if I'd been "straight" as a man people would define me as lesbian after transition, even though I was attracted to women throughout). I don't see that as orientation changing *in terms of attraction targets,* though.
Labels bore me I tend to ignore them.
Quote from: alex rogers on October 30, 2013, 08:05:55 AM
Labels bore me I tend to ignore them.
Shifting labels are interesting to me (especially if they're shifting in the right direction).
I don't mind the "gay" label as a trans woman presenting male (as the original question asked, I believe...) -- I would definitely mind being labeled as gay (preferring men) as a transitioned woman (no idea if men are for me... but yeah, I'd mind it).
I have not yet been called out as gay, but I have a feeling I'm already being labelled that way. I'm actually, almost looking forward to it - except that it will probably come from someone not very accepting of LGBT+. Work is the most likely place, and even those who are against it probably wouldn't say it. I'm surprised nobody has asked on Facebook, though... there are definitely some questions going around.
To be honest, being labelled as gay bugs me too- but only in that it infers I am a man in its common usage.
I am a lesbian. The L in lgbt. I am a 'gay woman'... but I am not a gay man.. the g in lgbt. I am not a man.
To be totally honest I am not into guys, get icked out seeing men kiss each other (but killer proud they can and will fight for their right to do so til my last breath) and cannot really imagine wanting to have sex with one. Uhg.
But, that said I am at peace with and open to everything HRT brings- and if I start to notice boys I am not going to freak out but embrace it as part of my true self. No shame, just truth.
Quote from: Emmaline on October 30, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
But, that said I am at peace with and open to everything HRT brings- and if I start to notice boys I am not going to freak out but embrace it as part of my true self. No shame, just truth.
I wasn't expecting to notice men after HRT, totally came out of the blue. I was a little freaked out at first but now I'm quite intrigued. I don't think I could have a relationship with a man, but I'm certainly thinking it might be entertaining to have a bit of fun with one.
Let people think what they want. What really matters is what you think of yourself. If you want to be with a guy then so be it. I am just starting HRT and I find this interesting - the change in perspective I mean. I sometimes fantasize that I am with a man when I am with my wife. But that is me. This is something I will need to come to grips with as I move forward with transition - but that is my issue. Not my families, the cashier at the grocery store or the UPS guy (but he is cute ::) ).
Also, I think too many people have their nose's in other peoples business where it does not belong. They should start focusing on themselves first before focusing on others.
People assume I'm gay all the time but they mean a dyke. I love the penis tho I look like a lesbo. But I know its the trans = gay man that bothers some. That goes away with passing. I woukdnt fight this battle its a losing one.
It's normal. If you really were okay with being gay you wouldn't be considering transitioning. Overreacting to someone saying you're gay and denying it like there's no tomorrow, now that might be homophobia in a way. But just not liking to be called gay, that's all right. It implies that you're a man, and if you feel like a woman, it's something you're ultimately not, probably. And being called something you're not just doesn't feel good.
However, right now you're into men and until you transition you're a man. Which technically makes you a gay man. So while it's okay not to like it, get used to it, because for now and for an undetermined period of time, it is true.
Besides, studies are starting to show that probably, androphilic (into men) transsexuals come from the same source as gay men, that basically a gay man might be someone with a slightly feminized brain, and that an androphilic transsexual has a more extensively feminized brain, which would in the end make androphilic trans women "so gay they're women".
So if those findings are confirmed, in the end, all of us straight trans women are technically speaking a kind of gay man, haha. I don't find it exactly thrilling to imagine either, but if it's what it is, then that's that. And well, to be honest, I do recognize myself a little in some gay men, even though I know I'm not quite the same.
(Don't worry about your rights and whatnot, though. Those were never based on some recognition that we are "true women inside" but on the simple fact that the only effective means of treatment is for us to transition, live and be recognized as female, which doesn't change.)
I detested the very thought of being perceived or labeled as a gay guy before I had my epiphany about being trans. I detest the very thought of being perceived or labeled as a gay guy even now. I have no problem with the notion of being gay; though I identify as bisexual, I don't care if people think that I'm lesbian. Heck, I'd proudly proclaim to be both lesbian and bisexual! I just hate being put into a box in which I don't belong. "Gay" is not just a label; it affects how people treat you. And I would rather be treated as a lesbian, a bisexual, and transsexual (with all of which I do identify) than as a gay man.
Probably what I hate the most is the misconception that gender non-conformity has anything to do with sexual orientation.
Quote from: Silvermist on October 30, 2013, 10:51:14 PM
I detested the very thought of being perceived or labeled as a gay guy before I had my epiphany about being trans. I detest the very thought of being perceived or labeled as a gay guy even now. I have no problem with the notion of being gay; though I identify as bisexual, I don't care if people think that I'm lesbian. Heck, I'd proudly proclaim to be both lesbian and bisexual! I just hate being put into a box in which I don't belong. "Gay" is not just a label; it affects how people treat you. And I would rather be treated as a lesbian, a bisexual, and transsexual (with all of which I do identify) than as a gay man.
Probably what I hate the most is the misconception that gender non-conformity has anything to do with sexual orientation.
Are you trying to say that lesbian, bisexuals, and transsexuals are treated better than gay men? Let's look at from a straight cis perspective lesbian= gay bisexual=gay and in denial about it transsexual=really really gay! Any way you look at society looks at us as gay and to be honest they really can't tell the difference between us all they see is gay. ;)
Nope, pretty sure she's saying they're treated differently and she wants to be treated like something she feels she is rather than something she feels she isn't.
Quote from: Emmaline on October 30, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
To be totally honest I am not into guys, get icked out seeing men kiss each other (but killer proud they can and will fight for their right to do so til my last breath) and cannot really imagine wanting to have sex with one. Uhg.
Yup :). I am totally not turned on by seeing two men kissing each other, but it is absolutely none of my business and I dont care about other people's sexual preferences (unless they are really weird, of course). At the same time I can imagine myself having fun with one of the guys - thank you HRT! - (because this is totally different thing), but similarly as one of the previous posters - I am not convinced about relationship part yet.
LGBT.
You could make a case for describing me as all of the above.
BFD.
Why should anyone else concern themselves? That's just creepy.
I'll just go on being me.
Quote from: A on October 31, 2013, 02:47:28 AM
Nope, pretty sure she's saying they're treated differently and she wants to be treated like something she feels she is rather than something she feels she isn't.
Yes, thank you. There absolutely are differences between how lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals are perceived and treated. Just look at the stereotypes and the derogatory language. One would have to be living under a rock to think that society views lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals as all the same. And just to clarify, when I say that they're treated differently, I don't mean "inferior" or "superior" treatment. I just mean different treatment.
Quote from: A on October 30, 2013, 07:30:23 PM
If you really were okay with being gay you wouldn't be considering transitioning.
I am sorry but that just isnt so, and to say that infers that people only transition to get away from being gay.
I had the gay man label before. It didn't bother me, actually I miss it a little, now I am a 'regular' straight girl. I am into men though and that is how it is. I was comfortable being 'gay', just I am a girl, so now I am, erm, not gay. Whatever huh?
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on November 01, 2013, 05:39:40 AM
I am sorry but that just isnt so, and to say that infers that people only transition to get away from being gay.
I had the gay man label before. It didn't bother me, actually I miss it a little, now I am a 'regular' straight girl. I am into men though and that is how it is. I was comfortable being 'gay', just I am a girl, so now I am, erm, not gay. Whatever huh?
Yeah... this. The two are entirely unrelated. One person can like men, women, or both (and to varying degrees), be OK with that and its label, and still be transgender. I'm solidly questioning, but currently prefer women - why should that be more (or less) ok than being a confirmed trans woman who's solidly lesbian or hetero? Others' labels are, to each of us, either a truth, a convenience, or a cause of strife... (if one cares at all).
For me, the "gay male" label is a convenience of transition - even if I always prefer women. Perhaps that helps to lessen what other gay men are (or hetero preferred trans), but I'm not seeking out the label, I'm just realizing that it's what most people will begin to assume before they realize (or, more likely, are told) that I'm transgender. For Akira the "gay male" label defined her for a time and it's ok to miss it. I
know I'll miss the straight male label . . . but I'm already seeing that the "queer with broken family" label is a pretty crappy one all around.
I dont understand a lot of transwoman.
When you as a transwoman like woman then that means your gay!
Also... it is a COMPLIMENT when they perceive you as gay because the gay stereotype is naturally feminine.
What would you want then? To be compared to tough firefighters, army generals, pilots and womanizers?
Its exactly these last things that completely deny that one is a woman from birth.
Because it makes no sense at all.
No one in their right mind is able to understand that.
Also, not wanting to be compared to gay men... betrays a homophobic tendency which is not at all feminine.
In fact, its very straight and masculine and macho.
I for one, do not want to be compared to such transwoman anymore. For obvious reasons.
They make my life and the prejedice harder then it already is.
Oh and I wonder how many ciswoman would have been able to live happily and succesfully as males from birth.
The effects of nurture have been proven wrong when it comes to the transgendered and gay people...
But a lot of transwoman seem to want to explain all psychological masculinity as nurture, which of course
can be proven wrong. But that does not happen :P
that truth is not "convenient"
Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2013, 09:05:30 AM
Oh and I wonder how many ciswoman would have been able to live happily and succesfully as males from birth.
None! I really want to make this point to cis women and men, but I have no idea how to explain it. I doubt it could be explained...
I've been getting, from some of the women in the family who know, those sidelong comments that all women seem to make... how having a penis is just easier, how being a man is easier. I don't know if it's just something they'd have otherwise said or if it's directed to me in some way - I'll assume the former. Each and every one of these women would absolutely freak out if they were suddenly 100% male bodied. Oh sure - you'd get the "enjoy it for a time" crowd, but eventually, when the reality (and hormones) set in, they'd be exactly where we are now.
The same goes for men... only doubly so - since they'd actually be underprivileged for once.
It's a cis failing that nearly all of them can't understand what they have always had... and it's difficult (or even impossible for some) to teach this to them.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on November 01, 2013, 05:39:40 AM
I am sorry but that just isnt so, and to say that infers that people only transition to get away from being gay.
I had the gay man label before. It didn't bother me, actually I miss it a little, now I am a 'regular' straight girl. I am into men though and that is how it is. I was comfortable being 'gay', just I am a girl, so now I am, erm, not gay. Whatever huh?
I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your message very well.
Quote from: A on November 02, 2013, 12:23:36 PM
I'm really sorry, but I don't understand your message very well.
You said "If you really were okay with being gay you wouldn't be considering transitioning." Maybe I am reading this wrong, but to me that says that if one were comfortable with ones sexuality then there would be no reason to do this.
My point is that it is quite possible that ones gayness or not doesn't bother someone and that they still choose to transition. For people who are attracted to the same gender that they designated at birth and would be labelled as gay if they did not transition, transition is not always to 'not-be-gay'. If someone is 'gay' in the gender they are transitioning from, the reason to transition should not be for this reason at all.
I was designated male at birth, I like guys. I was OK with that and the gay label did not bother me. Still, I transitioned because my gender is separate.
Suggesting that selecting one's sexuality is a valid reason to change gender, and your statement, at least to me, suggests that this is the only reason one would want to do this, is silly. Try imagining anyone saying that they didn't want to change gender but they did so only because they wanted to be gay :-)
Oh. I see. That's not quite what I meant. In "being gay" the big implied factor was "being male". Indeed transitioning because you don't wanna be gay is quite silly.
Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on November 03, 2013, 10:26:28 AM
You said "If you really were okay with being gay you wouldn't be considering transitioning." Maybe I am reading this wrong, but to me that says that if one were comfortable with ones sexuality then there would be no reason to do this.
My point is that it is quite possible that ones gayness or not doesn't bother someone and that they still choose to transition. For people who are attracted to the same gender that they designated at birth and would be labelled as gay if they did not transition, transition is not always to 'not-be-gay'. If someone is 'gay' in the gender they are transitioning from, the reason to transition should not be for this reason at all.
I was designated male at birth, I like guys. I was OK with that and the gay label did not bother me. Still, I transitioned because my gender is separate.
Suggesting that selecting one's sexuality is a valid reason to change gender, and your statement, at least to me, suggests that this is the only reason one would want to do this, is silly. Try imagining anyone saying that they didn't want to change gender but they did so only because they wanted to be gay :-)
To me you have a feminine psyche. I find it to be masculine and macho to have a problem being associated with gay men.
I take a certain pride in gay people and I feel that I am one of them too.
The real problem I have with being trans is being associated with straight macho men that become woman.
Its just to far apart from my worldview. I cannot reconcile my situation and way of being with theirs.
With gay men? No problem. And often they are very kind and understandig towards me.
Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2013, 08:56:34 AM
I dont understand a lot of transwoman.
When you as a transwoman like woman then that means your gay!
Also... it is a COMPLIMENT when they perceive you as gay because the gay stereotype is naturally feminine.
What would you want then? To be compared to tough firefighters, army generals, pilots and womanizers?
Its exactly these last things that completely deny that one is a woman from birth.
Because it makes no sense at all.
No one in their right mind is able to understand that.
Also, not wanting to be compared to gay men... betrays a homophobic tendency which is not at all feminine.
In fact, its very straight and masculine and macho.
I for one, do not want to be compared to such transwoman anymore. For obvious reasons.
They make my life and the prejedice harder then it already is.
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, so forgive me if my post isn't relevant. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I fully embrace the lgbt community; however, there are many differences between gay men and trans women. The fact is that no cis woman wants to be seen as a gay man. So, why should a trans woman? I love our gay brothers, but they are men and that is simply something I can't identify as. While there are some feminine men, they are still guys. And it's important to note that there are many manly gay men and masculine trans girls. I think the stereotype of trans women just being very very gay and gay guys being fem does a disservice to both communities. While we may have some similarities and often fight the same fights, it's okay to note our differences. It isn't homophobic to hope that we are viewed different from a separate group. At the end of the day, we can fight together in the lgbt community and support one another while recognizing our differences. Again, I may have misinterpreted your original statement, so I'm sorry if you didn't intend to say anything contrary to my post.
Quote from: learningtolive on November 03, 2013, 02:57:18 PM
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, so forgive me if my post isn't relevant. There is nothing wrong with being gay, and I fully embrace the lgbt community; however, there are many differences between gay men and trans women. The fact is that no cis woman wants to be seen as a gay man. So, why should a trans woman? I love our gay brothers, but they are men and that is simply something I can't identify as. While there are some feminine men, they are still guys. And it's important to note that there are many manly gay men and masculine trans girls. I think the stereotype of trans women just being very very gay and gay guys being fem does a disservice to both communities. While we may have some similarities and often fight the same fights, it's okay to note our differences. It isn't homophobic to hope that we are viewed different from a separate group. At the end of the day, we can fight together in the lgbt community and support one another while recognizing our differences. Again, I may have misinterpreted your original statement, so I'm sorry if you didn't intend to say anything contrary to my post.
I fully agree with LTL on this point. There are many gay men who are totally turned off by anything remotely feminine. Could they be considered macho? I dunno... depends on Your definition of macho, perhaps. Then, again, we have people like Kristen Beck and many many others. Are they masculine transwomen? I dunno, I have never met them in person. But I pretty much suspect that it takes a lot to become a Navy Seal... Nevertheless, Kristen Beck is now where she is (where most of us from this board are), despite all of her efforts and coping mechanisms. Is she then somehow "less trans" than let's say Kim Petras? Purely rhetoric question :)
I used to be very homophobic person - partially because when I was very young, I was told that gay people are those who are pretending to be women. As I could not express my feelings then, it all led to deep internalised shame about myself being "gay" and hating it. Later, I read what homosexuality really is about and did not identify with it, but confusion and shame endured, still. So, did I have a masculine psyche back in those days? I seriously doubt, because I never was macho and I never was alpha male (I have no idea how somebody becomes to be one...) - yet, I was perceived as very masculine person (in many senses, not only the worst things usually associated with males) - but internally, I never was male. So, because I used to be homophobic - I am now not trans enough? :) Should I reconsider my transitioning? :) And what about those transwomen who stay true to females afterwards and identify themselves as lesbians? :)
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 03, 2013, 04:53:05 PM
I used to be very homophobic person - partially because when I was very young, I was told that gay people are those who are pretending to be women. As I could not express my feelings then, it all led to deep internalised shame about myself being "gay" and hating it. Later, I read what homosexuality really is about and did not identify with it, but confusion and shame endured, still. So, did I have a masculine psyche back in those days? I seriously doubt, because I never was macho and I never was alpha male (I have no idea how somebody becomes to be one...) - yet, I was perceived as very masculine person (in many senses, not only the worst things usually associated with males) - but internally, I never was male. So, because I used to be homophobic - I am now not trans enough? :) Should I reconsider my transitioning? :) And what about those transwomen who stay true to females afterwards and identify themselves as lesbians? :)
This is partly why I'm confused about my sexuality now (vice my gender... which has never been so clear to me). I wasn't completely homophobic, but I did reject any possible homosexuality or femininity in myself (& not too well on the latter). I certainly didn't support either - in my tainted mind that would point me out as gay or trans... many of us overcompensate. I ate Chick Fil A on purpose a time or two (gasp... yes I'm that much of a rebel... and not much further, either LOL).
Now I'm not a complete advocate on my public accounts, but I'm much, much more of one (liking things on Facebook I would never have associated with before). On my private / hidden accounts (@KabitTarah on twitter, especially) I am more public about my thoughts and agendas.
Well, I can't relate to the homophobia, but I do understand where you are coming from. Many people have labelled me as gay throughout my life and having been raised in a Catholic family, that wasn't a good thing. I was ashamed of myself because I liked men and wanted to be a girl. At that point in my life, I would have said I was a gay kid who desperately wished to be a female and occasionally cross dressed. Still, I never quite felt gay despite the fact that I was only interested in guys and wanted to be a girl. The disconnect didn't make sense at the time because I was too young to understand what being trans meant nor did I have access to the internet having lived in a very controlled home. I knew that trans people existed but I thought they were all like Rupaul which is very different from who I am. So, I did have an internal sense of self hatred for being different and having feelings that weren't "normal", yet I never had a problem with gay people. I just felt that I shouldn't like guys even though it was okay for others to do so. It felt like I was a different case and that I was different from them. After trying to be a "gay guy" around 18 years old and attempting to rid myself of my trans thoughts by being something else, I realized why I was different and came to understand that being gay is something very separate from being trans. That's why I can totally understand the desire to be viewed differently even though there is no homophobia behind it. I love gay people and have gay friends. They're awesome people and worthy of our respect and support. I'm just not that. Oddly enough, my mom often begs me to just be a gay guy, lol. Who would ever think a mother would say such a thing? I guess the times are changing, lol.
Well, I never had any issues with gay people :). But still, I was homophobic. I used to have several professors, who were gay, I knew about some of my aquaintances who were suspected to be gay - but I did not care much whether it was true or not.
But I once was molested by gay male in public bus when I was a teen - and I had an issue with that and I hated that person... but only him and other gay males like him, who just walk around and grope boys in buses... I guess I still hate them... And I pretty much hated if someone touched me or broke my boundaries for years afterwards.
I was also not very comfortable with over-expressive and effeminate types, because they always felt somehow unnatural to me. And yes, I really had issues if people considered me to be gay (and some of them did, despite all my efforts to conceal my deep trans issues). So I guess, that was homophobia for me ;) But, having accepted myself, I pretty much can accept anyone else now (unless the person is doing something he could be charged with... >:-)) :police:
I hope everyone thinks I'm gay! Until the day my boy-mode (IE, my only mode) fails, I'm going to become more and more visibly twinkish. Colorful shirts, rainbow plastic bands, maybe even an E necklace...it's going to be wonderful! I don't really have many friends on campus, so maybe becoming more visible will help me find a community.
I was pretty homophobic when I was younger, but I think that's just a byproduct from living with conservative families. I vaguely remember my first "romantic" thoughts at six-ish years old being about boys from my class. Then I "grew out of it," learned that it was "wrong," and grew back into it as my teenage years wound down. Now, I have a pretty hard time daydreaming about heterosexual relationships. If I think about myself as a boy, I want to be with other guys. If I imagine myself as a girl, other girls. I'm not sure if that makes me bisexual or just plain gay :D I always say pansexual because it's an easier concept to explain.
Growing up, I was always very feminine and related to girls more than boys. I was also a geeky kid as well. My mother believed I was gay since I also didn't date in high school, but had a lot of female friends and most of my friends were geeks like me and in theater/television. (My high school had a cable public access station.) My father was always trying to make me man up and wanted me to go into the military to make a man out of me. He refused to put me in college unless I went in the military. Fortunately my parents divorced and my mother remarried when I was 15. My step-father believed I should be myself and paid my way through college. It never bothered him that I was feminine in nature. (He was also born and raised in Manhattan.)
When I met my wife, my mother was against our marriage saying there was something not right about her, but in reality it was me not being my true self that she was sensing. (She later admitted this after I came out to her.) My mother was right in the long run, I was gay, a lesbian. When I came out to her after talking a while she had said: "Wow what a day, the hardest news was to find out my son is transgender, the easiest part is that she is a lesbian." She has been very supportive and I could ask for better support, even though she currently lives 1300 miles away.
Quote from: Sibila on November 01, 2013, 08:56:34 AM
I dont understand a lot of transwoman.
When you as a transwoman like woman then that means your gay!
Also... it is a COMPLIMENT when they perceive you as gay because the gay stereotype is naturally feminine.
What would you want then? To be compared to tough firefighters, army generals, pilots and womanizers?
Its exactly these last things that completely deny that one is a woman from birth.
Because it makes no sense at all.
No one in their right mind is able to understand that.
Also, not wanting to be compared to gay men... betrays a homophobic tendency which is not at all feminine.
In fact, its very straight and masculine and macho.
I for one, do not want to be compared to such transwoman anymore. For obvious reasons.
They make my life and the prejedice harder then it already is.
The reason many trans women don't like to be compared to gay men isn't because those people are gay, it's because those people are men.
Men.
As in gay men.
Not women.
As in trans women.
It's a blatant denial of one's womanhood to be called a man of any type -- including a gay man. It's further ignorant to equate homosexuality with femininity, as not all gay men are feminized. Many gay men are very masculine.
When I am seen as a gay man by people who know about me, I feel offended (or taxed/frustrated, if the person is simply being naive) not only for myself, but for gay men. It is a clear misinterpretation of the following terms: man, woman, gay, straight, sexuality, gender.
Why is it okay for my core person to be misinterpreted so long as the misinterpretation is something I like and support? It's not. I'm me, not someone else. I would very much like to be seen as myself. I grew up thinking I was a gay man. I'm over anyone thinking I'm gay, it doesn't make me feel insecure. I'm more than okay with people acknowledging the fact I'm effeminate. I'm more than okay with people acknowledging that I like men. Heck, I'd even be okay with someone acknowledging me as a lesbian because at least they'd be half-right (I'm a woman, but I do not like women). I am not okay with being acknowledged as a gay man because I am not a man, and although I do like men, I am again not a man and therefore cannot be a man who likes men (gay).
It's simply a matter of apples wanting to be apples.
You dont understand what I am saying.
I do not want to be seen as a man, in any form... gay or not.
But sadly from my experience, that DOES happen, ocassionally...
(for MANY people, when you say you are trans, they think of you as a male who wanted to be female. NOT as a born female who
needed to be herself)
And WHEN that happens....
I rather am compared to gay men then transwoman that were straight men and happy.
From childhood I have sufferend inmensly because I was born in the wrong body and could not live the male gender role.
I was teased and bullied by the masculine boys... who felt great being boys....They have always made me feel a failure and ugly.
Now that I am transitioned I see that a great number of these previously homophobic masculine (and happy to be a man) straight
guys want to become woman. And they want to regard me as one of them. Which they are not, nor will they ever be.
I find it offensive, an insult and just downright painfull to be compared to those transwoman. Also by non transpeople. It hurts
me a lot.
Its like you are an auswitch survivor hearing another "survivor" say that is was a piece of cake (while it is clear that he she was never even there). And that they could adapt better, adapt more. Or worse even: when they start to lie and say that I have an advantage to them....because I did not supress my femininity (which I did).
Those are the transwoman that lie to themselves and lie to others AND me. Betrayel.
The type that says that since they took hormones, they are worse drivers (just like woman).
I am rather compared to feminine gay man, that also, like me, took the beating, and had to struggle to survive their childhood and themselves.
Also I have been bullied about being gay and a girl so many times in my life, that being homophobic would mean that I would be just like those people...
A transwoman that is homophobic I will NEVER be able to accept as one of my kind.
Call me heterophobic. And hetero(lesbian) transphobic. (and with reason!)
That's really confusing....to me at least.
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 10:29:31 AM
That's really confusing....to me at least.
Thanks for trying to understand though.
Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....
They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!
Why can't I with transwoman???? Why are they not like woman???
It REALLY dissapoints me.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:25:42 AM
You dont understand what I am saying.
I do not want to be seen as a man, in any form... gay or not.
But sadly from my experience, that DOES happen, ocassionally...
And WHEN that happens....
I rather am compared to gay men then transwoman that were straight and happy.
From childhood I have sufferend inmensly because I was born in the wrong body and could not live the male gender role.
I was teased and bullied by the masculine boys... who felt great being boys....They have always made me feel a failure and ugly.
Now that I am transitioned I see that a great number of these previously homophobic masculine (and happy to be a man) straight
guys want to become woman. And they want to regard me as one of them. Which they are not, nor will they ever be.
I find it offensive, an insult and just downright painfull to be compared to those transwoman. Also by non transpeople. It hurts
me a lot.
Its like you are an auswitch surviver hearing another person say that is was a piece of cake. And that they could adapt better, adapt more. Or worse even: when they start to lie and say that I have an advantage to them....because I did not repress my femininity (which I did).
Those are the transwoman that lie to themselves and lie to others AND me. Betrayel.
The type that says that since they took hormones, they are worse drivers (just like woman).
I am rather compared to feminine gay man, that also, like me, took the beating, and had to struggle to survive their childhood and themselves.
Also I have been bullied about being gay and a girl so many times in my life, that being homophobic would mean that I would be just like those people...
A transwoman that is homophobic I will NEVER be able to accept as one of my kind.
I get what your saying I'm kinda similar to you and I was picked on a lot by the boys and some girls when I was growing up. But just because someone seems to be happy as a male on the outside doesn't necessarily mean they were happy as men. And I bet most of their homophobia was based on the fear they might be gay themselves. Everybody handles this differently and some learn to cope easier than others and that doesn't make them any less trans than you or I.
Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
I get what your saying I'm kinda similar to you and I was picked on a lot by the boys and some girls when I was growing up. But just because someone seems to be happy as a male on the outside doesn't necessarily mean they were happy as men. And I bet most of their homophobia was based on the fear they might be gay themselves. Everybody handles this differently and some learn to cope easier than others and that doesn't make them any less trans than you or I.
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:41:56 AM
Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....
They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!
Why can't I with transwoman???? Why are they not like woman???
It REALLY dissapoints me.
I really do get what your saying I feel like I can't relate to a lot of transwomen either. When I first started transitioning I thought I would find others like me who knew from an early age who they were and never really established a male personality. But I was wrong and it actually scared me because I felt so different from the others I met. But I realized just because I couldn't relate to them didn't make me any more or less valid than them. Now I do have a question why is it so important for you to fit in with transwomen if you have more in common with ciswomen?
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
Yeah... that's just offensive to me.
Congratulations at always knowing who you were and never having been forced in the closet because of it. Some of us weren't so lucky. I came out at 15... and supressed it until I was 35. I tried my best (which admittedly wasn't all that great) to be male and failed.
Your experience does not in any way lessen mine, but your words do.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
What makes you think your an authentic woman? Your displaying an ego in your posts that you are somehow better than everyone else which is a very masculine trait. ;)
I'm pretty sure I have the label now, meh, I move out of the men's dorm tomorrow onto a coed floor in hope of better treatment.
Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
I really do get what your saying I feel like I can't relate to a lot of transwomen either. When I first started transitioning I thought I would find others like me who knew from an early age who they were and never really established a male personality. But I was wrong and it actually scared me because I felt so different from the others I met. But I realized just because I couldn't relate to them didn't make me any more or less valid than them. Now I do have a question why is it so important for you to fit in with transwomen if you have more in common with ciswomen?
Because I am compared to them.
Mind you ..i do not feel better then anyone. Nor do I even like being female...i have no use trying to prove I am MORE female, while I do not even want to be one.
Thats also the pain I go through every day...that I will never truely be regarded female and almost dying from insecurity and being hurt by men...trouble loving my body...trouble finding myself attractive...list goes on...
Most transwoman are for more self assured then I am and far less humble.
They are also not unhappy about being trans in the same way I am.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 11:08:49 AM
Because I am compared to them.
Mind you ..i do not feel better then anyone. Nor do I even like being female...i have no use trying to prove I am MORE female, while I do not even want to be one.
Thats also the pain I go through every day...that I will never truely be regarded female and almost dying from insecurity and being hurt by men...trouble loving my body...trouble finding myself attractive...list goes on...
Most transwoman are for more self assured then I am and far less humble.
They are also not unhappy about being trans in the same way I am.
I think you have more in common with a lot of us than you realize I struggle with these same insecurities. And trust me their were days I hated being female and wished nothing more than to be male but that's not who I am. If your ever going to find happiness your going to have to accept who you are fully including the parts you don't like. :)
I can see in your eyes Heather...that you are a darling.
I have accepted that I will never be able to accept it...is that ok too?
Sibila,
I feel for your frustrations. I really do.
I feel grievances some times, too, when trans women play into ridiculous stereotypes. It bothers me when a lot of our ilk try to validate themselves or reinforce their insecurities by fulfilling tropes and feminine expectations. It really annoys me when trans women feel entitled and use boisterous attitudes or become grossly offended to try and combat discomfort or perceived ignorance. None of these actions do us, or ciswomen, any favors.
The way you're expressing yourself isn't doing anyone any favors, either. You're playing into stereotypes and invalidating both trans and cis people with them. We are people, not ideas or stories. Here's the reality of it:
Trans women can be mean.
Trans women can be insensitive.
Trans women can be stupid.
Trans women can be liars.
Trans women can be naive.
Trans women can be confused.
Trans women can be eccentric.
Trans woman can be brilliant.
Trans women can be kind.
Trans women can be honest.
Trans women can be nurturing.
Trans women can be wise.
Trans women can be awful, wonderful, reclusive, involved, uncaring, engaged, melancholic, jubilant -- the list goes on. The neat thing about this list is that it wholly applies to trans men, cis women, and cis men too.
People are all innately different and, to complicate things even more, raised and exposed differently. The even more particular thing about transgendered people is that we're raised against what someone who feels like us is typically raised as. We're taught to fulfill different roles -- and just like our cis cousins, some of us fit into those roles better than others. But that's all they are -- roles. There's no rule that says women must fulfill their common roles and men must fulfill their common roles, or they're simply not what they are.
The accusations and outlines you're making are really unfair, not just to the people you accuse, but yourself. I think it's okay to be frustrated with people who are naive and callous, but I also think it's important to recognize what you're frustrated with them about. I think you're going way too far to essentially say "I do not want to be a woman, and anyone who does is invalid."
I know a lot of cis women who love being a woman. They're in that position because they think of themselves as human first and foremost and love to do their best to be who they are. They still recognize the hardships women (both cis and trans) go through, but they wouldn't have it any other way. There are many trans women who feel this way about being a woman, too, and they are just as valid.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 11:40:50 AM
I can see in your eyes Heather...that you are a darling.
I have accepted that I will never be able to accept it...is that ok too?
Sibila never say never it took me many years to get to this point where I can accept myself. It's not easy but it can happen if your allow yourself to accept who you are. :)
Quote from: Willow on November 04, 2013, 11:03:15 AM
I'm pretty sure I have the label now, meh, I move out of the men's dorm tomorrow onto a coed floor in hope of better treatment.
It's alright Willow it's just a label you get used to it after a while well I did anyways But it can actually be quite helpful if your already seen as gay people don't seem as shocked when you tell them your trans. :)
Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 12:17:57 PMIt's alright Willow it's just a label you get used to it after a while well I did anyways But it can actually be quite helpful if your already seen as gay people don't seem as shocked when you tell them your trans. :)
I was reluctant to say maybe when someone was tryibg to hook up with me (in my dad's presence) and I sit with the girls at hockey games. I'm either being viewed as a hard to get playa, or gay. Meh, it should get better moving to a coed floor.
Funny I have the label, I'm actually pretty asexual, at least for now, but these men and all their testosterone oozing everywhere I guess see that no sex means closeted gay sex.
Quote from: Willow on November 04, 2013, 01:00:27 PM
I was reluctant to say maybe when someone was tryibg to hook up with me (in my dad's presence) and I sit with the girls at hockey games. I'm either being viewed as a hard to get playa, or gay. Meh, it should get better moving to a coed floor.
Funny I have the label, I'm actually pretty asexual, at least for now, but these men and all their testosterone oozing everywhere I guess see that no sex means closeted gay sex.
Willow just because someone else thinks your gay doesn't make it so. And really I wouldn't let it bother you college age guys are not that bright and they can't tell the difference between gay and trans or even asexual. As long as you know who you are is all that matters just hold your head up and be proud of who you are. ;)
QuoteIT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY!
I think most people can.
Quote from: Nikko on November 04, 2013, 01:47:04 PM
I think most people can.
In fact, faking masculinity is way easier than faking femininity.
Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 01:39:08 PMWillow just because someone else thinks your gay doesn't make it so. And really I wouldn't let it bother you college age guys are not that bright and they can't tell the difference between gay and trans or even asexual. As long as you know who you are is all that matters just hold your head up and be proud of who you are. ;)
I know, just kinda describing the situation.
Especially not on my floor. I've met a lot of smart ones, and they at least aren't quick to label.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 01:51:23 PM
In fact, faking masculinity is way easier than faking femininity.
And how do you know that??? Do you have experience faking femininity?
Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 12:12:31 PM
Sibila never say never it took me many years to get to this point where I can accept myself. It's not easy but it can happen if your allow yourself to accept who you are. :)
Ive been trying 35 years.... and have lived 7 years as a woman now. I am giving up on being able to accept that I am not what I am :).
Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
We're taught to fulfill different roles -- and just like our cis cousins, some of us fit into those roles better than others. But that's all they are -- roles. There's no rule that says women must fulfill their common roles and men must fulfill their common roles, or they're simply not what they are.
Nobody teached me to be a boy. It would have been easier if anyone did at that time. You are simply expected to be and act as a boy. But its not as simple as copying behavior. More so, it is trying to hide all natural behavior that is feminine. And trying to act masculine, right? I did not succeed at both while I was great at acting. I did supress my identity completely at age 4. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't I do what most others did?
Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
The accusations and outlines you're making are really unfair, not just to the people you accuse, but yourself. I think it's okay to be frustrated with people who are naive and callous, but I also think it's important to recognize what you're frustrated with them about. I think you're going way too far to essentially say "I do not want to be a woman, and anyone who does is invalid."
I did not say that, however if you are a straight feminine girl at heart and want the normal life as a woman, you will have a hard time doing that as trans. Most men dont even bother dating me when they know. The one's that do watch ->-bleeped-<- porn and again expect me to be some kind of boy and dominate them. Its very hard to find that guy that really treats you like a woman and who is dominant/masculine and caring. Those guys dont fall for transwoman... because they like WOMAN.
A trans is a deformaty to them. Not to mention that I cant start a family (which is another reason why its hard to be in a normal relationship). That, next to all the trouble with the masculine features in your body? And people associating you with men and the transwoman I mentioned. What is there to enjoy about being a woman? The clothes? The make up? I wish I did not have to mind how I dress. If I was a genetic woman, I would wear masculine clothes because they are way easier. I cant now because it ruins my passability.
And even when you do find a boyfriend. Its hard to find one that does not care that other people can see you are trans. When a man is insecure about that how will my feminine need be fulfilled... like the need to feel that a boyfriend is proud of me. Wants to be seen with me, and show me off. For example. But its there in a million things that you will notice that you are a woman, but not treated as such.
Perhaps my need differ very much from other transwoman, and those needs and desires are my problem. Genetic woman understand my needs exactly though, because they are their needs to.
Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I know a lot of cis women who love being a woman. They're in that position because they think of themselves as human first and foremost and love to do their best to be who they are. They still recognize the hardships women (both cis and trans) go through, but they wouldn't have it any other way. There are many trans women who feel this way about being a woman, too, and they are just as valid.
Of course... I would love to be a woman, if I was a woman. And If I was a genetic woman... I could pretend that its important to be regarded as a human first. In the position I am in now... being human, means nothing to me. You might as well call me male.
Also I dont know exactly in what world you live. But its hard for genetic woman (perhaps even downright impossible) to understand the hardship of a transwoman. In fact, you might end up with them saying that you had the privilege to be male. And I can understand that. Its exactly the same way I think about a lot of transwoman.
They seem so lucky compared to the stuff I had to go through and still go though. It never stops.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
And how do you know that??? Do you have experience faking femininity?
No, but I have experience in faking masculinity and since guys mostly are way simplier than women, then... I made an educated guess :).
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 03:17:31 PM
I don't know about faking femininity since it just comes naturally but I'd say masculinity is pretty hard to fake. I sure can't figure it out and I've had almost 30 years to practice.
Well, I guess it depends on our definitions of masculinity then :)
QuoteNobody teached me to be a boy.
Sure you were. From the moment we're born we're socialized to be our physical gender. It comes from every possible direction and source... parents, siblings, school, strangers, friends, television, etc.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
Nobody teached me to be a boy. It would have been easier if anyone did at that time. You are simply expected to be and act as a boy. But its not as simple as copying behavior. More so, it is trying to hide all natural behavior that is feminine. And trying to act masculine, right? I did not succeed at both while I was great at acting. I did supress my identity completely at age 4. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't I do what most others did?
I did not say that, however if you are a straight feminine girl at heart and want the normal life as a woman, you will have a hard time doing that as trans. Most men dont even bother dating me when they know. The one's that do watch ->-bleeped-<- porn and again expect me to be some kind of boy and dominate them. Its very hard to find that guy that really treats you like a woman and who is dominant/masculine and caring. Those guys dont fall for transwoman... because they like WOMAN.
A trans is a deformaty to them. Not to mention that I cant start a family (which is another reason why its hard to be in a normal relationship). That, next to all the trouble with the masculine features in your body? And people associating you with men and the transwoman I mentioned. What is there to enjoy about being a woman? The clothes? The make up? I wish I did not have to mind how I dress. If I was a genetic woman, I would wear masculine clothes because they are way easier. I cant now because it ruins my passability.
And even when you do find a boyfriend. Its hard to find one that does not care that other people can see you are trans. When a man is insecure about that how will my feminine need be fulfilled... like the need to feel that a boyfriend is proud of me. Wants to be seen with me, and show me off. For example. But its there in a million things that you will notice that you are a woman, but not treated as such.
Perhaps my need differ very much from other transwoman, and those needs and desires are my problem. Genetic woman understand my needs exactly though, because they are their needs to.
Of course... I would love to be a woman, if I was a woman. And If I was a genetic woman... I could pretend that its important to be regarded as a human first. In the position I am in now... being human, means nothing to me. You might as well call me male.
Also I dont know exactly in what world you live. But its hard for genetic woman (perhaps even downright impossible) to understand the hardship of a transwoman. In fact, you might end up with them saying that you had the privilege to be male. And I can understand that. Its exactly the same way I think about a lot of transwoman.
They seem so lucky compared to the stuff I had to go through and still go though. It never stops.
One thing people fail to remember is that ASIDE from gender,we are humans first.When we were born,we didnt worry about others or their point of views on us.As we grew and society/other people,started to show those points of views and ideas,we *tried* to reform to those things.As we hit high school and the hardest time of all,we dressed/talked/looked how we thought people would accept us-i know i did.I didnt know i was Trans back then but i tried hard to fit in and be accepted,to be someone else.But i was sheltered,i didnt know what gender was,sex,orientation,what was bad or good-and people still didnt accept me.The woman hated me and the men used me/abused me.So im sure you could imagine,the only ones i could be around were men who seen me as some freak (though i didnt know anything yet) but they just knew something was wrong with me and they seen it as the perfect chance.with not knowing and all the bad things in my life,i ended up hitting a low time in my life where i tried to kill myself but still didnt know why-why it hurt so bad,why i had no want for anything or lived in a black hole.I always told people that *it feels like im living in a 3rd diminsion and no idea how to get back to earth/reality* How could someone who didnt know anything about femininity or masculinity,be *acting* in any way? im sure they do but not from their own knowledge.I would say i was more masculine then anything because of a few actions.
A cold truth for one is not a cold truth for all and as you do not like being placed in a box,do not place anyone else there with you.We need to give freedom to the people like me,who lived an entire life in blackness and from being set free,they can finally live-it doesnt matter if society or people accept THEIR version of femininity or masculinity but if I Accept ME and i have.It seems you have alot of inner struggle,trying to reform or hoping to reform to be something your not.Its also NOT about being something your not,someone your not or even regrets on how you wish things could be/couldnt be a certain way.Its about doing what you can here and now,to make life worth living as WHO you are.So what if a woman has slightly bigger feet,i see it as a beautiful woman with bigger feet and they say ALOT about her.She has walked MILES on those feet,rough and broken skin from how far she has come,that alone is beautiful.Let go of the negatives and get up! stand up on those feet and tell society and its ideas,that you will not reform and that you will be YOU-even if that means roughing up those feet even more.And encourage other people like you,to do the exact same thing.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
No, but I have experience in faking masculinity and since guys mostly are way simplier than women, then... I made an educated guess :).
It's the same for me, haha.
Faking stereotypical masculinity:
-Stay monotone.
-Use lots of words like "nah," "man," and "dude." Anything that makes you seem aloof.
-Talk in commands and absolutes. Use terms like "absolutely," "definitely," "no question."
-Use as little facial expression as possible, unless it's negative facial expression (furrow eyebrows, grimacing, squinting, glaring). Avoid smiling at all costs.
-Be loud.
-Try not to use your hands much when you talk, and if you do, avoid much wrist movement.
-Take up as much space as possible.
To be honest, I find this really hard to keep up over a long period of time, especially if I'm concentrating on something else in a conversation. I also have a feeling that any actual men reading this would think I have no clue what I'm talking about.
Who says anyone's faking anything?
Not only is this conversation fairly offensive in tone (and some of the things that were said), but it's also very gender binary. Everything I've seen on Susan's 'til now has been fairly open to everyone and not against certain segments of the trans* population (as I personally feel this conversation has been taken).
Masculinity and femininity? We were taught one and some (not all) lived in that world for a time... we need to learn the other - which comes easily to some, more difficultly to others. We are similar, but each of us is in a completely different place from the others. I suggest we try to help and learn from each other.
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way... mods?
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:41:56 AM
Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....
They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!
Why can't I with transwoman???? Why are they not like woman???
It REALLY dissapoints me.
I'm able to relate to and with both cis and trans women.. My friends on a quite close level.. Others simply because they are human. It's much easier to relate to people when you have things in common - and being simply trans isn't enough.
The inference that because you'd find it impossible to relate to me makes me somehow less of a woman is offensive.
Quote from: SibilaIT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
Most trans women are forced to fake masculinity at some point, with greater and lesser success.. Just because you couldn't do it does not mean that others can't do it..
I coped as a man.. It required a lot of drugs and other self abuse - oddly not things I've felt a need to do since I've transitioned. I never wanted to be a woman - I always was one.
The only times I've been accused of being gay man was when I was pretending to be one.. And my interactions with people demonstrate to me that they see me as a woman - they certainly treat me like one. Friends and strangers. It seems that because some things don't work for you or you don't understand them, so they can't be valid positions - even if they worked for others. I was a gay man who is living her life the way it should always have been - as a lesbian. I'm a woman who happens to be trans, something that I am fully accepting of.
Quote from: kabit on November 04, 2013, 04:18:25 PM
Who says anyone's faking anything?
Not only is this conversation fairly offensive in tone (and some of the things that were said), but it's also very gender binary. Everything I've seen on Susan's 'til now has been fairly open to everyone and not against certain segments of the trans* population (as I personally feel this conversation has been taken).
Masculinity and femininity? We were taught one and some (not all) lived in that world for a time... we need to learn the other - which comes easily to some, more difficultly to others. We are similar, but each of us is in a completely different place from the others. I suggest we try to help and learn from each other.
Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way... mods?
I'm pretty sure everyone is talking about faking in terms of trying to act like their assigned gender while still in the closet, not faking in terms of "You were born male, so if you act female, you are faking"
Also I'm just assuming I'm misinterpreting Sibila's posts as offensive...if they mean what I'm interpreting, then yes, very offensive.
Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 04:08:10 PM
It's the same for me, haha.
Faking stereotypical masculinity:
-Stay monotone.
-Use lots of words like "nah," "man," and "dude." Anything that makes you seem aloof.
-Talk in commands and absolutes. Use terms like "absolutely," "definitely," "no question."
-Use as little facial expression as possible, unless it's negative facial expression (furrow eyebrows, grimacing, squinting, glaring). Avoid smiling at all costs.
-Be loud.
-Try not to use your hands much when you talk, and if you do, avoid much wrist movement.
-Take up as much space as possible.
To be honest, I find this really hard to keep up over a long period of time, especially if I'm concentrating on something else in a conversation. I also have a feeling that any actual men reading this would think I have no clue what I'm talking about.
Stereotypes are boring :) But so are the average stereotypical guys. I mostly picked all my stuff from books and movies - watching how protagonists reacted to various situations and just copy-pasting and applying to my case :). The issues appeared when I started to run into situations outside "of the book" and then I had to improvise thinking "what X would do if...?". Mostly it was kinda fun, but at times it went desperate and frustrating (mostly, when I started digging in why I cant comprehend apparently simple truths and why I hate being in the boys locker room after the sports class).
Quote from: Nikko on November 04, 2013, 03:58:28 PM
Sure you were. From the moment we're born we're socialized to be our physical gender. It comes from every possible direction and source... parents, siblings, school, strangers, friends, television, etc.
Its a strong believe amongst transwoman that nurture is all and nature is nothing, which is NOT true.
We are in fact the only one's that can really know that (from experience).
I was and am typically feminine in many ways and nobody taught me that. Its simply just the way I am... despite the way I was raised.
Quote from: Kelly the Post-Trans-Rebel on November 04, 2013, 04:20:00 PMI never wanted to be a woman - I always was one.
Pretty much the general trans attitude there. Took me a while to tell myself that I am not a man wanting to be a woman, but truly am a woman, who just happened to have the unfortunate instance of being born with a man's body, and the hormones that go with it.
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding going on in this topic..
Either that or I'm just oblivious to what is going on lol
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
I was and am typically feminine in many ways and nobody taught me that. Its simply just the way I am... despite the way I was raised.
Which is very curious and strange. I have no explanations for this. I can only attest that there are things which have never been taught to me and yet, they just come out naturally - if I let them to. Perhaps, this is just an experience we all have for decades watching women being around us? Could this be so simple? :)
Quote from: Chaos on November 04, 2013, 04:04:29 PM
The woman hated me and the men used me/abused me.So im sure you could imagine,the only ones i could be around were men who seen me as some freak (though i didnt know anything yet) but they just knew something was wrong with me and they seen it as the perfect chance.with not knowing and all the bad things in my life,i ended up hitting a low time in my life where i tried to kill myself but still didnt know why-why it hurt so bad,why i had no want for anything or lived in a black hole.I always told people that *it feels like im living in a 3rd diminsion and no idea how to get back to earth/reality
Well you might not expect it, but I could have written what you wrote above.
Quote from: Chaos on November 04, 2013, 04:04:29 PMIt seems you have alot of inner struggle,trying to reform or hoping to reform to be something your not.Its also NOT about being something your not,someone your not or even regrets on how you wish things could be/couldnt be a certain way.Its about doing what you can here and now,to make life worth living as WHO you are.So what if a woman has slightly bigger feet,i see it as a beautiful woman with bigger feet and they say ALOT about her.She has walked MILES on those feet,rough and broken skin from how far she has come,that alone is beautiful.Let go of the negatives and get up! stand up on those feet and tell society and its ideas,that you will not reform and that you will be YOU-even if that means roughing up those feet even more.And encourage other people like you,to do the exact same thing.
I am not trying to be someone I am not. I am trying to not be someone I am not.
Mentally, I am not a transwoman... I am not a man... If I could have a feminine body tommorow, most of my problems would be gone.
I simply cannot live my life as a woman when I am constantly denied that.
I dont enjoy being myself. Because I need others to be myself with. I get a lot of energy when someone treats me as a female... but I lose even more when the opposite happens.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
What good is masculinity and femininity when it is faked? you do not know the full extent and power of the human spirit and its ways of *doing what it needs to for the sake of another* and most of us had to *fake* being our born gender to make people happy/hoping it will pass/its all a dream--.But allow me to explain something in a respectful manner.
1) my body does not define me.This took me 20 years of pain and suffering,put downs to realize alone.When i knew that even my female body wasnt worth having.I was in NO way,shape or form-A WOMAN.And everyday that body breaks down,falling apart at the base.Will i *still* be a woman once everything is gone? or is there more to a humans existence then what we SEE? i guess thats up to you to decide which mentality YOU have.
2) Someone elses events/situations/actions-is NOT your own.You are strong in your own way,if you wish to be but NEVER tell another that theirs is wrong/not done right/unacceptable.Deal with you first and THEN you can be wise enough to deal with someone else.
3) it is YOUR truth but not a universal truth.I only speak of my OWN experiences and opinions but i can NOT tell anyone else what the truth is for them and theirs.Compassion for your common man/human,should come above everything else.
Oh btw-i AM an actual man :)
Hi friends :police:
Let's watch some of the wording and make sure to not be venturing into rule 10 violation territory
Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Thank you
V M
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 04:23:00 PM
Also I'm just assuming I'm misinterpreting Sibila's posts as offensive...if they mean what I'm interpreting, then yes, very offensive.
They are not meant to offend. But they are probably offensive though. But we are all offended by different things.
I am offended by things people tell me here too. But perhaps you do not really understand WHY it offends me... it may seem
unacceptable to you that I am honest.
But if I cant be honest. What is the use of having a discussion. I am happy that I got a few responses. And few are really lovely.
For instance the reply from Chaos moved me...
Thank you.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 04:32:52 PM
Well you might not expect it, but I could have written what you wrote above.
I am not trying to be someone I am not. I am trying to not be someone I am not.
Mentally, I am not a transwoman... I am not a man... If I could have a feminine body tommorow, most of my problems would be gone.
I simply cannot live my life as a woman when I am constantly denied that.
I dont enjoy being myself. Because I need others to be myself with. I get a lot of energy when someone treats me as a female... but I lose even more when the opposite happens.
Then THAT is how you need to accept yourself and handle yourself,if thats your mentality.Because regardless if another person decides they want to act a fool,does that change who you are? no,so why allow such things to bring you to this point? when you focus that energy inward then you keep yourself strong,preventing anyone from taking from you.that means its time to stop letting people do that.Even if your body does not fit-that doesnt mean that *we* change.We still wake up who we are but we have to be comfortable and accept our selves for WHO we are,that includes the down sides.
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 04:36:06 PM
Well I can pretty much guarantee that my femininity did not come from socialization or from watching women around me....I didn't think I was a girl, I wasn't told not to do things that boys shouldn't do or told to do things because that's what boy's should do, and yet, I was feminine since before I could talk...just naturally...
Exactly, me 2.
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 04:27:15 PM
I think there's a lot of misunderstanding going on in this topic..
Either that or I'm just oblivious to what is going on lol
Thank goodness, I'm glad it wasn't just me that felt this way. :D
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 04:36:59 PM
For instance the reply from Chaos moved me...
Thank you.
Im glad it did and i hope to see you growing with us.
Honest and strongly opinionated aren't the same unless you use the words "in my opinion" or something similar. People here can be sensitive and take things personally and its only right, since it is a support site, to remember that.
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 04:36:06 PM
Well I can pretty much guarantee that my femininity did not come from socialization or from watching women around me....I didn't think I was a girl, I wasn't told not to do things that boys shouldn't do or told to do things because that's what boy's should do, and yet, I was feminine since before I could talk...just naturally...
Then, apparently it all is way more complicated than I was thinking :). Hmmmm.... Are You, by any chance, Zodiacal Pisces or Cancer? :)
On a totally different topic... I wonder if I will wake up tomorrow morning and see this thread locked for some reason (instantly knowing that I had missed the fun part :) )
I'll do my best to answer your reply in a more direct way.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
Nobody teached me to be a boy. It would have been easier if anyone did at that time. You are simply expected to be and act as a boy. But its not as simple as copying behavior. More so, it is trying to hide all natural behavior that is feminine. And trying to act masculine, right? I did not succeed at both while I was great at acting. I did supress my identity completely at age 4. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't I do what most others did?
Everyone is different. You really may have just had trouble with it. My personal example goes like this: I was very effeminate up until age 12. Family and peer bullying made me try harder to be masculine from 13 to 18. I actually made some friends this way, but was depressed and never fully successful at fitting in with boys. I caused a lot of drama and became too attached to certain friends. I gave up again when I was 19 until now and dropped the masculinity act.
However, if I had been masculine -- or one step further, successfully masculine -- the entire time without acting or trying, it wouldn't have made me any less valid as a woman, because it wouldn't have made any cis girl less valid as a woman.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
I did not say that, however if you are a straight feminine girl at heart and want the normal life as a woman, you will have a hard time doing that as trans. Most men dont even bother dating me when they know. The one's that do watch ->-bleeped-<- porn and again expect me to be some kind of boy and dominate them. Its very hard to find that guy that really treats you like a woman and who is dominant/masculine and caring. Those guys dont fall for transwoman... because they like WOMAN.
A trans is a deformaty to them. Not to mention that I cant start a family (which is another reason why its hard to be in a normal relationship). That, next to all the trouble with the masculine features in your body? And people associating you with men and the transwoman I mentioned. What is there to enjoy about being a woman? The clothes? The make up? I wish I did not have to mind how I dress. If I was a genetic woman, I would wear masculine clothes because they are way easier. I cant now because it ruins my passability.
And even when you do find a boyfriend. Its hard to find one that does not care that other people can see you are trans. When a man is insecure about that how will my feminine need be fulfilled... like the need to feel that a boyfriend is proud of me. Wants to be seen with me, and show me off. For example. But its there in a million things that you will notice that you are a woman, but not treated as such.
I don't feel this is true. I can personally attest to several men who have been interested in me, despite my downstairs, who do not particularly care for that configuration. They loved my personality and thought I was an amazing investment. There have also been men who were okay with what I had down there but would also be okay afterwards. There are even more who are not okay with it now, but really want me to look into them again when it's gone. The majority of these men have been extremely fun, intelligent, well-balanced people. Many of them have said they would not be ashamed of me. Several of them are my closest friends who I have known since I was a teenager. A handful of them are men who were offensively naive about trans people and had to be educated first.
I haven't had FFS. I'm not really passable. I'm overweight. I dress neutrally. A lot of this is about personality and what potential a man sees in you.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
Perhaps my need differ very much from other transwoman, and those needs and desires are my problem. Genetic woman understand my needs exactly though, because they are their needs to.
Of course... I would love to be a woman, if I was a woman. And If I was a genetic woman... I could pretend that its important to be regarded as a human first. In the position I am in now... being human, means nothing to me. You might as well call me male.
I understand the needs. I think about them all the time. I daydream about them and have actual dreams about them. Men are one of the things I think about most. I talk to my cis best friend about men and what we want from them really, really often. It's a great source of frustration in my life, but the reason I'm not in a relationship is entirely of my own devices. I'm waiting until after I get FFS and possibly SRS so that -I- am less insecure, not the man I'd be with. Whatever the case, it's definitely not the fault of men as a whole.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PMAlso I dont know exactly in what world you live. But its hard for genetic woman (perhaps even downright impossible) to understand the hardship of a transwoman. In fact, you might end up with them saying that you had the privilege to be male. And I can understand that. Its exactly the same way I think about a lot of transwoman.
They seem so lucky compared to the stuff I had to go through and still go though. It never stops.
I do think it's hard for cis women to understand trans women, but not impossible. I've also had some bring up male privilege to me and try to tell me that I couldn't understand, or that I don't know what I'm in for. This is really just ignorant banter. I don't believe in the concept of adversity ownership, where an individual who has not suffered a particular type of adversity can never understand it. Human beings have the capacity to empathize and apply relativity -- it's not simple, no, but it is more than possible, and assuming it isn't possible from the get-go certainly does not help at all.
Genuinely, I wish you were not in so much turmoil over this subject. I've been through all of the insecurities, the worries, and the feeling less valid than cis women. I've worried about men and how they see me. I've worried about how valid I might be. It's an awful, awful collection of feelings, but a lot of them are founded in silly things. Despite still being stuck in uncomfortable stages of transition, life has shown me that none of those things are actually true, and I'm very hopeful for the future. I hope that you can reach that point, too, and that you don't have to forever carry such a burden.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 04:42:45 PM
Then, apparently it all is way more complicated than I was thinking :). Hmmmm.... Are You, by any chance, Zodiacal Pisces or Cancer? :)
On a totally different topic... I wonder if I will wake up tomorrow morning and see this thread locked for some reason (instantly knowing that I had missed the fun part :) )
.....Cancer.....why?
Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 04:49:16 PM
.....Cancer.....why?
And You are asking me? :) :) :)
Oh well, jokes aside, I am a firm believer that Water signs have some inherently enhanced femininity in them, which is seen as a blessing in females and somewhat diminishing quality in males. Being a Piscean female, I very much can attest to this, but I would not dare to argue that this is a reason why we know things we never learned. Unless,
Sibila (sorry for confusion) would confide with us and confirm that she too is either Pisces or Cancer (I am not mentioning Scorpios, because most of those that I have met have a lot of ... issues going on in their heads...)
Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 04:48:48 PM
I'll do my best to answer your reply in a more direct way.
Everyone is different. You really may have just had trouble with it. My personal example goes like this: I was very effeminate up until age 12. Family and peer bullying made me try harder to be masculine from 13 to 18. I actually made some friends this way, but was depressed and never fully successful at fitting in with boys. I caused a lot of drama and became too attached to certain friends. I gave up again when I was 19 until now and dropped the masculinity act.
However, if I had been masculine -- or one step further, successfully masculine -- the entire time without acting or trying, it wouldn't have made me any less valid as a woman, because it wouldn't have made any cis girl less valid as a woman.
I don't feel this is true. I can personally attest to several men who have been interested in me, despite my downstairs, who do not particularly care for that configuration. They loved my personality and thought I was an amazing investment. There have also been men who were okay with what I had down there but would also be okay afterwards. There are even more who are not okay with it now, but really want me to look into them again when it's gone. The majority of these men have been extremely fun, intelligent, well-balanced people. Many of them have said they would not be ashamed of me. Several of them are my closest friends who I have known since I was a teenager. A handful of them are men who were offensively naive about trans people and had to be educated first.
I haven't had FFS. I'm not really passable. I'm overweight. I dress neutrally. A lot of this is about personality and what potential a man sees in you.
I understand the needs. I think about them all the time. I daydream about them and have actual dreams about them. Men are one of the things I think about most. I talk to my cis best friend about men and what we want from them really, really often. It's a great source of frustration in my life, but the reason I'm not in a relationship is entirely of my own devices. I'm waiting until after I get FFS and possibly SRS so that -I- am less insecure, not the man I'd be with. Whatever the case, it's definitely not the fault of men as a whole.
I do think it's hard for cis women to understand trans women, but not impossible. I've also had some bring up male privilege to me and try to tell me that I couldn't understand, or that I don't know what I'm in for. This is really just ignorant banter. I don't believe in the concept of adversity ownership, where an individual who has not suffered a particular type of adversity can never understand it. Human beings have the capacity to empathize and apply relativity -- it's not simple, no, but it is more than possible, and assuming it isn't possible from the get-go certainly does not help at all.
Genuinely, I wish you were not in so much turmoil over this subject. I've been through all of the insecurities, the worries, and the feeling less valid than cis women. I've worried about men and how they see me. I've worried about how valid I might be. It's an awful, awful collection of feelings, but a lot of them are founded in silly things. Despite still being stuck in uncomfortable stages of transition, life has shown me that none of those things are actually true, and I'm very hopeful for the future. I hope that you can reach that point, too, and that you don't have to forever carry such a burden.
Thank you, that was sweet.
Well I have been dating and yes I have met nice guys... but when it comes to love... from my experience... its complicated. And really I do have a feminine character. A boyfriend once told me that it dissapointed him that I was feminine like the way his ex girlfriends are. He sorth of hoped that I would be different.
And no its not the fault of men as a whole. Or woman. Its just that everything seems to be about looks. Not about how you really are. In terms of female or male. It seems being female or male means nothing anymore except for appearences.
And that saddens me.
Can you understand that?
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 04:56:59 PM
And You are asking me? :) :) :)
Oh well, jokes aside, I am a firm believer that Water signs have some inherently enhanced femininity in them, which is seen as a blessing in females and somewhat diminishing quality in males. Being a Piscean female, I very much can attest to this, but I would not dare to argue that this is a reason why we know things we never learned. Unless, Sibila (sorry for confusion) would confide with us and confirm that she too is either Pisces or Cancer (I am not mentioning Scorpios, because most of those that I have met have a lot of ... issues going on in their heads...)
I am sagittarius.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 05:34:06 PM
And no its not the fault of men as a whole. Or woman. Its just that everything seems to be about looks. Not about how you really are. In terms of female or male. It seems being female or male means nothing anymore except for appearences.
And that saddens me.
Can you understand that?
My experiences have been quite different.. Early this year I found a wonderful woman who loved me for who I was.. Not what I was or my appearance.. Sadly, I lost her to liver disease.
I'm currently exploring the possibility of getting back together with an exGF (we dated 20 years ago) and she has always loved me for who I was.. Whether I'm a man or woman is immaterial, she loves me for me.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 05:34:06 PM
Thank you, that was sweet.
Well I have been dating and yes I have met nice guys... but when it comes to love... from my experience... its complicated. And really I do have a feminine character. A boyfriend once told me that it dissapointed him that I was feminine like the way his ex girlfriends are. He sorth of hoped that I would be different.
And no its not the fault of men as a whole. Or woman. Its just that everything seems to be about looks. Not about how you really are. In terms of female or male. It seems being female or male means nothing anymore except for appearences.
And that saddens me.
Can you understand that?
Its true that most do only see the appearance,the *dna*,whats *between the legs and not the ears* but remember that change comes with people like you and me.And why i posted my first post,to say that as we all know that feeling,we should let the superficial mind set go and be who we really are.Im glad to see though that your here and like i said,i do hope you stay here with us and we can all teach each other how to be better human beings and not *genders* lol ;)
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:46:53 AM
IT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.
And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.
I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.
Everyone is different and even though some of us played the male role rather well, that in no way takes away our femininity.
I hid my transgender issues very well for a long long time.
I love sports; but then there are a lot of ciswoman who love sports also. So don't place every trans woman in the same pigeon hole.
We are like every other segment of the population, we all have our own views on how we perceive things.
Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 05:34:06 PM
Thank you, that was sweet.
Well I have been dating and yes I have met nice guys... but when it comes to love... from my experience... its complicated. And really I do have a feminine character. A boyfriend once told me that it dissapointed him that I was feminine like the way his ex girlfriends are. He sorth of hoped that I would be different.
And no its not the fault of men as a whole. Or woman. Its just that everything seems to be about looks. Not about how you really are. In terms of female or male. It seems being female or male means nothing anymore except for appearences.
And that saddens me.
Can you understand that?
Yes, I really feel that I can understand that. As sad as it is, looks matter quite a bit.
They matter to some of the men I've met who are more hopeful about me after I get FFS.
They matter in my passability.
They matter to some of the friends I've lost who think it would be "less silly" if I "completely looked the part."
They matter enough to be the fine line in how I'm treated in many places and situations.
There are good eggs and bad eggs. I don't want to get FFS to cater to the bad people, but I do want it to make my life easier and have more confidence in myself -- and frankly, I want to be as attractive as I can for my future significant others. I can't blame them for liking what they like, and as someone who will love them, I want to nurture that. These desires all seem pretty normal to me, it's simply challenging that my starting point is much less fortunate than the majority of other women.
I do wish it didn't matter. The scrimping and saving of money for years is stressful and torturous, but that's the hand we've been dealt. I'm trying to do my best with it, and I'm very, very excited for when the time comes.
Quote from: Kelly the Post-Trans-Rebel on November 04, 2013, 06:16:31 PM
My experiences have been quite different.. Early this year I found a wonderful woman who loved me for who I was.. Not what I was or my appearance.. Sadly, I lost her to liver disease.
I'm currently exploring the possibility of getting back together with an exGF (we dated 20 years ago) and she has always loved me for who I was.. Whether I'm a man or woman is immaterial, she loves me for me.
I was talking about men. Woman are different. But I am not allowed to say so though.
Quote from: Chaos on November 04, 2013, 07:36:21 PM
Its true that most do only see the appearance,the *dna*,whats *between the legs and not the ears* but remember that change comes with people like you and me.And why i posted my first post,to say that as we all know that feeling,we should let the superficial mind set go and be who we really are.Im glad to see though that your here and like i said,i do hope you stay here with us and we can all teach each other how to be better human beings and not *genders* lol ;)
I dont see myself as a bad human.
And I cant help feeling dissapointed that the commen belief of cispeople is that transwoman, are everything, but woman.
And thats not because they are small minded. There have been so many stories in the press of tough alpha males becoming woman...
On the other hand, the internet is flooded with T girls that top men and woman.
Transwoman are not liked and appreciated as the gender they are.
Transwoman constantly seeking the media have made my life harder instead of less hard.
When people meet me and find out, so many times I have heard them say that I am so different from the transwoman they met, who they could not see or believe to be woman.
And we all can call them bigots and bad humans, all we want.
But its the way many people think about us now...and we have " ourselves "to thank for it.
Okay friends :)
It's been fun, but not much fun
Topic locked
Thank you
V M