Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi all,

I just received a note from Jessie that she tentatively set my surgery date for April 23. She advised me, however, to wait and not immediately book my flights and hotel, as the schedule is not final yet. She'll notify me when it is.

But, hey, I've got an appointment. This is actually happening! Can someone please ask my body what the adrenalin rush is all about? It was only an e-mail, after all. But somehow, this feels far more like an adventure than FFS did – maybe, like, on a par with GRS back in the Nineties. And this feels just as exciting, it's just now I'm pushing 40 and supposed to be older and wiser. Nope. Still the same old giggly me. Bear with me :-)

Amy

So happy for you baby! Enjoy the bliss zone!  :)

Amy, this is great news!  That's just under four months away.

And listening to the result of the several other Susan's girls who have preceded you, should really give you hope.

That's great Amy, enjoy the ride. It'll be here before know it.

Hi Amy,
     Hope we'll be getting some before and after voice comparisons, it's always so inspiring to those who are considering the trip to Yeson to hear the great results people are having.

Dear Jamie,
dear Jessica, Shantel and Sarah,

thanks for the encouraging words!

Quote from: Jamie D on January 02, 2014, 05:01:37 AM
And listening to the result of the several other Susan's girls who have preceded you, should really give you hope.

Aye, there's the rub. I'm not doing this out of sheer necessity. My voice actually is unproblematic, and most people would say I don't need the surgery. I routinely pass in audio-only communication, I work as a musician and choir director in stealth mode (!), and there are numerous recordings of my voice out there, both in a speaking and a singing context, that are consistently gendered female.

So in general, I don't suffer from dire voice problems. But what motivates me and drives me toward this surgery is the prospect that it could significantly reduce the vocal effort that singing with my present voice entails. And these are my hopes: to trade in my old voice that I've learned to manipulate quite well over the years for one that comes as naturally and that I can handle just as easily, but that doesn't force me to constantly push and tweak. If the surgery can give me that, I'll be a happy camper.

Love,

Amy

And that is possibly the best reason to do this, Amy. To be able to speak in a fully female voice completely naturally has to be a tantalizing prospect. I wish I could sing again but between hearing loss and the vocal cord issue, I would never subject anyone to my hideous screeching. Just me and the shower. :P

I'm actually slowly succeeding at producing a passing female voice in the lower female range (darn that vocal cord!) but the effort is a lot and I really can't maintain it all day. I suspect that is because it's the right vocal cord doing all the work. Plus I've been told that my "dual tone" voice is even more obvious in female mode. Hence my own interest in this surgery someday. But I have many other legal and financial hurdles to clear first.

I suspect that you will be pleased beyond measure once this is complete and that you will find your use of voice simple and effective, rather than an effort.

Good luck to you!

Quote from: AmyBerlin on January 02, 2014, 10:08:33 AM
Aye, there's the rub. I'm not doing this out of sheer necessity. My voice actually is unproblematic, and most people would say I don't need the surgery. I routinely pass in audio-only communication, I work as a musician and choir director in stealth mode (!), and there are numerous recordings of my voice out there, both in a speaking and a singing context, that are consistently gendered female.
Amy

Your situation is similar to mine. The only time my voice lets me down is when I get a cold. However it's going to be amazing not to have to strain or think too hard and to just speak. We may be there at the same time. Here's my schedule
Tue, April 21st: Consultation and Examination
Wed, April 23rd: Operation
Wed, April 30th: Follow-up 
Anyway I don't want to hijack your thread. Best wishes

Saskia

Hi Saskia,

Quote from: Saskia on January 03, 2014, 12:31:46 PM
We may be there at the same time.

We are. We're both having our surgeries April 23. This is quite amazing! What time are you flying in and where are you staying? Maybe we can meet up or arrange some excursions/outings together. What do you think?

Quote from: Saskia on January 03, 2014, 12:31:46 PM
Anyway I don't want to hijack your thread.

No harm done. That's what it's there for, and I'm all the happier for it.

Best wishes,

Amy

Hi Amy

I haven't booked my flights or hotels yet. I'll probably use the same hotel that Sarah used, but we should meet up it would be fun

gutes Wochenende!!!!

Wow Amy and Saskia! What are the odds of that? You might have the beginnings of a long term friendship, wishing you both great success!

Hi all,

since I didn't have Korea on my cultural mind-map at all prior to hearing about Yeson, last night me, my wife, and a friend of ours decided to remedy that and head out to Madang, Berlin's premier Korean eatery (highly recommended!). We had sobulgogi for 2, and a serving of bibimbap, and shared each equally. I must say, I'm absolutely impressed with the food! Totally unlike other Asian cuisines, these are hearty dishes that actually sometimes even feel a little Eastern European to my tastebuds (but this could be because of the role of fermented foods). A really pleasant surprise.

So, at least my mind is at ease now that our trip will be an enjoyable one from a culinary point of view.

Greetings,

Amy

Hi all,

I'm one step further down my VFS journey: today I had my appointment at the phoniatric department of Charité in Berlin that served two purposes: one, to ascertain that everything's well with my voice before I take the plunge and go to Yeson, and second of all, to find out about the glottoplasty procedure Charité is offering (Profs. Gross and Nawka).

For diagnostics, I had to do the usual thing: read a few test sentences in masculine and feminine mode, loud and soft arpeggios up and down to find out my range, hold a midrange note, and a laryngoscopy during which I was supposed to make sounds. Turns out my vocal production is entirely healthy, cord closure is fine across the whole 3 1/3 octave range.

In the following discussion, both Prof. Nawka and Dr. Kramer were very nice and knowledgeable. We talked about the various methods of conservative therapy, as offered by Thomas Lascheit in Berlin and Stephanie Kruse in Munich (the best in Germany). I explained that I'm in contact with them and regularly swapped opinions, so was quite up on the developments in conservative therapy.

As far as surgery goes, Prof. Nawka resolutely opined that the VFS he performs wasn't for me, since my voice functions quite well, compared to the average transwoman. He said that after surgery I would definitely wind up with a voice quality worse than what I have now, with hoarseness a frequent problem, with curtailed low-end response, but, on the average, no gain up top. And he mentioned that it could easily render the voice unsuitable for singing.

To illustrate the point, their assistant played me before-and-after samples (they're not available on the Net because German data protection laws prohibit it), and I must say they confirmed my resolve not to have the surgery in Berlin. Sure, the heavy bass response is gone, but the resulting voices are too small and weak, sometimes hoarse. And to my ears, they still sound decidedly masculine.

I then brought up the surgery performed at Yeson, and Dr. Kramer replied she was aware that excellent work was being done in that regard in Korea. I then mentioned that I had spoken to a number of Dr. Kim's patients on the phone, and that I was very impressed with their results, esp. their good, clear voice quality without hoarseness or rasp. When I mentioned that some of these patients had reported about half an octave of range gain up top, she was quite astonished. It seemed like we all found something to take home from that conversation, and parted ways.

Bottom line: Charité is no true alternative to Yeson, not in the slightest. Despite the similar approach upon cursory inspection, the Yeson results are consistently better. Berlin may be an option for people enrolled in the German health system who cannot afford Yeson, suffer from a really bad voice, and have no singing ambitions. All others are probably better advised to keep saving their pennies for the trip to Seoul.

Regards,

Amy

Hi all,

since my VFS surgery in Seoul is now a scant 3 1/2 weeks away (woo-hoo!), the apartment booked, the money wired (and received) and generally everything taken care of, I decided today would be a good day for pre-op voice recordings. Not so. This morning I woke up and – I had caught a cold and could barely talk. I'm lucky this happened now and not later, around the time the procedure is scheduled. So I'll be taking good care of myself in order to be well soon to make the recordings I promised.

So please be patient :-)

Regards,

Amy

Good luck Amy :)

Good that this is still 3 weeks away. So you have still a lot of time to get well again, do your recordings and be in the best shape when going to Dr Kim. Rest yourself well :)

Hi all,

slowly, but surely, I'm beginning to record my pre-op speech and singing samples. This is the first batch, sample text readings.

	German (Der Nordwind und die Sonne)	English (Rainbow Passage)
Feminine/elevated (everyday speaking) voice	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0fbDP36ry7K (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0fbDP36ry7K)	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hN6hw8TOxK (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hN6hw8TOxK)
Masculine (original) voice	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JPQiX70wiD (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JPQiX70wiD)	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0X8tQgYcmcw (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0X8tQgYcmcw)

I think the distinction between the two is very evident, as is the reason just why I'd like to have this procedure done.

Love,

Amy

Hi Amy,
      Your feminine voice sounds very nice as it already is, so I imagine that you will have excellent results following surgery. Best wishes!

your trained voice sounds great already, im sure you'll benefit a lot from this surgery.
good luck!

I like your voice too. I had to giggle when I heard "Der Nordwind und die Sonne". The standard speech training text :-)

I hope your surgery will went well!

Lara

Ah, Lara, you are also from Berlin? Nice. Yes - I have read that Nordwind text now several times too. they have another one but I forgot it .

So Amy, I guess its time to wish you a safe journey later today! :)

Hi all,

arrived well, moved into room, feeling horribly drained. More later.

Amy

Hi all,

so I got everything done, recorded the singing samples (a well-known song in 3 different keys, one original baritone, one "fake alto" and one a "pushed fake alto"), although I haven't mixed them yet, and went onto my way to Seoul, where I am now.

Thankfully my greatest fears did not materialize and I didn't catch a cold on the plane and the diarrhea I had just days ago is also gone. I'm becoming calmer by the hour, although there is still a little bit of unrest that will hopefully disappear once I've had my consultation with Dr. Kim tomorrow 1:30 PM local time, when we'll go over the plan for my voice. And Wednesday is the big day...

I'll keep you posted how things develop!

Regards,

Amy

Wishing you well Amy!

Yes Amy best wishes and congrat's on arriving OK.

Hi everybody,

here's my Seoul update: after spending a nice evening out in Jongno district with Saskia, we rested and slept off most of our jet lag, and later went to Yeson for the pre-op examination. I have a very favorable impression both of Dr. Kim and of Jessie and of the entire organization.

Turns out there's good news: my "boy mode" voice was measured at around 155 Hz, my "practiced feminine" at 175. There's no tremor – so potentially no Botox in the end –, except for the extremely low range, where it might be present because of disuse. Subglottic pressure and air flow are rather high, though, which may be from years of using breathiness as a feminizing tool.

The length of my vocal cords is right at the borderline between male and female voice boxes (which may be why I never developed an Adam's Apple), however, they are thick and heavy. So he decided on suturing just 1/3 of them, but is going to pay attention to creating a nice tapered suture (more below) in order to enable the vocal folds to "speak" better at higher frequencies (which I need for singing). All in all, Dr. Kim is estimating my speaking F0 to be around 220 Hz post-surgically, which should be almost exactly female average. BTW, Dr. Kim calculates the frequency up from the masculine natural speaking pitch, not from the trained female pronunciation.

The material Dr. Kim is using for the sutures is permanent, but gets embedded in mucosa rather quickly, which is why it's not visible in Jenny's 1-year-post picture.
The "tapered suture" mentioned above is actually one of the key points that set Dr. Kim apart from other glottoplasty surgeons: his first stitch, closest to the old anterior commissure, goes deep and grasps the entire vocal cords and even some of the material underneath and to the sides, to lend maximum stability. The second stitch grasps less and the third one only the medial section of the vocal folds. In this manner he not only ensures a clean contact point in front at the new commissure, but by eliminating a pocket of static air underneath the sutured section that could lead to turbulence at the new commissure also improves sound quality in this way.

Let's see what tomorrow brings. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

Amy

I wish you all the best. I feel excited for you!

Wow, Dr. Kim certainly knows his stuff..it's all the more apparent with the info you just posted - it's nice to know he really does analyse our voices to such depth before the procedure.

Sending best wishes for tomorrow!

Gigi

Hi all,

here's my postoperative summary. Actually, everything happened in precisely the same way as Saskia, who was quicker at writing down her experience, described in her previous post: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,154975.msg1409571.html#msg1409571 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,154975.msg1409571.html#msg1409571), only 1:45 hrs earlier, so there's no need to repeat it here, just to point out the differences:

Since it was determined in the preoperative exam that my vocal folds were short, but thick, I did not receive the customary 3 stitches, but just 2, which covered the 1/3 of total vocal fold length that we had agreed on. Any asymmetry correction was not necessary.

Sadly, as we said goodbye, Jessie told me that nevertheless, Dr. Kim still plans to perform a Botox injection on me – precisely what I wanted to avoid.

And, I have to concur with Saskia: It's extremely hard getting used to not talking, but I think I'm doing a pretty good job at it ;-)

Stay tuned for more,

Amy

Good luck and quick recovery Amy. Fingers crossed for you!

Unfortunately I'm going to have to have my VFS here in the US. I don't have to sing, but I'll need to find a surgeon here with some TG experience. If anybody knows of one in Florida near the Tampa Bay area please let me know.

EDIT: I forgot to add, I wish you a very speedy recovery Amy!! :icon_bunch: :icon_flower:

I wish you a quick recovery :)

My best recovery wishes as well, Amy. We'll be in contact, I guess ;)

Allyda, why are you bound to do this in the US? Insurance coverage??? I heard only good reports up to now from one surgeon in the US and that is Dr Thomas in Portland. But my knowledge on this is limited, I only get the names that seem to have an international reputation ;)

Best recovery wishes from me too Amy!

Allyda- That is unfortunate, honestly there is no other surgeon I could recommend that does it the way Dr. Kim does (using a scalpel & manual suture rather than a laser).

The laser technique doesn't seem to heal as well (from my research). I think Dr. Kim's fine tuned scalpel method is far less trauma and I think that's how he boasts such great results from his procedure.

Be VERY careful when selecting a voice surgeon.

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 23, 2014, 02:53:27 PM
Best recovery wishes from me too Amy!

Allyda- That is unfortunate, honestly there is no other surgeon I could recommend that does it the way Dr. Kim does (using a scalpel & manual suture rather than a laser).

The laser technique doesn't seem to heal as well (from my research). I think Dr. Kim's fine tuned scalpel method is far less trauma and I think that's how he boasts such great results from his procedure.

Be VERY careful when selecting a voice surgeon.

Yes Allyda, Jenny is right, listen to her and Anja on this. Even Dr. Thomas has wrecked a few folks voices, it's been a crap shoot up until Dr. Kim was found by JennyGirl.

Quote from: AmyBerlin on April 23, 2014, 06:22:58 AM
Hi all,

here's my postoperative summary. Actually, everything happened in precisely the same way as Saskia, who was quicker at writing down her experience, described in her previous post: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,154975.msg1409571.html#msg1409571 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,154975.msg1409571.html#msg1409571), only 1:45 hrs earlier, so there's no need to repeat it here, just to point out the differences:

Since it was determined in the preoperative exam that my vocal folds were short, but thick, I did not receive the customary 3 stitches, but just 2, which covered the 1/3 of total vocal fold length that we had agreed on. Any asymmetry correction was not necessary.

Sadly, as we said goodbye, Jessie told me that nevertheless, Dr. Kim still plans to perform a Botox injection on me – precisely what I wanted to avoid.

And, I have to concur with Saskia: It's extremely hard getting used to not talking, but I think I'm doing a pretty good job at it ;-)

Stay tuned for more,

Amy

Yes Amy, I just want to avoid Botox injection also. It only lasts for 4 months and you shouldn't be using your voice a lot until 2 months post-op, so I don't really see the point to get an extra botox injection (plus you don't have tremor! I envy you!)

If "no botox" would not produce a worse result (which I don't know), I will avoid botox this time , but if voices go poor only because no botox, I'm gonna be scared...

Dear Alessia,

Quote from: alexiakk on April 23, 2014, 10:06:38 PM
Yes Amy, I just want to avoid Botox injection also. It only lasts for 4 months and you shouldn't be using your voice a lot until 2 months post-op, so I don't really see the point to get an extra botox injection (plus you don't have tremor! I envy you!)

Let's put it like this: the Botox is only a temporary fix. And what it should fix is debatable, because what Dr. Kim diagnosed in my voice as a tremor in the extreme low range was just the natural vibrato that develops when you don't consciously support the note. Had I supported it properly (as I did the higher notes), the tremor/vibrato wouldn't have been there and the whole debate would be moot.

Quote from: alexiakk on April 23, 2014, 10:06:38 PM
If "no botox" would not produce a worse result (which I don't know), I will avoid botox this time , but if voices go poor only because no botox, I'm gonna be scared...

That is the great unknown. Maybe the Botox aids in the healing process by temporarily relaxing the vocal cords. We don't know, because so far, we've only had Botox candidates here.

Best wishes,

Amy

Quote from: Jennygirl on April 23, 2014, 02:53:27 PM
Best recovery wishes from me too Amy!

Allyda- That is unfortunate, honestly there is no other surgeon I could recommend that does it the way Dr. Kim does (using a scalpel & manual suture rather than a laser).

The laser technique doesn't seem to heal as well (from my research). I think Dr. Kim's fine tuned scalpel method is far less trauma and I think that's how he boasts such great results from his procedure.

Be VERY careful when selecting a voice surgeon.

As you and Auntie Shan know Jennygirl I greatly value your opinions and recommendations. I'm not in a big hurry (well, you know what I mean) so I will consider and check out the reputaion of all possible surgeons before I choose or commit to anything. I've heard a few horror stories from other sources as well. In addition I too am very leary of anything involving botox.

Anjaq you are correct, insurance coverage greatly has a hand on where I have my surgeries done.

I would of course love to have this done by Dr. Kim where Jennygirl, and Amy have had theirs done. However, I haven't the resources to make that possible. Though I do work for myself part time when I can, due to my aircraft accident in 91 I'm on a fixed income and haven't any family I can count on for help so I'm all alone with the exception of my few good friends (you girls know who you are) and my lovely family here on Susan's for moral support and guidance. So I unfortunately have to work with the resources available to me. I may have one option and that's to use part of my refinance funds (my current home is almost paid off) but it would depend of course on total cost/s of not just the surgery, but the trip as well.

I really do sincerely appreciate your advice and concern Jennygirl, Auntie Shan, Anjaq, I actually have a few tears of joy right now knowing y'all care about me like this. I promise I will be careful.
I thank y'all for just being the wonderful women you are.
Sorry for gettin mushy. I'm not that used to this.

Amy I'm happy to hear your doing OK. I agree it can be wierd not being able to talk for a while. All my hopes and best wishes for the best possible outcome.

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: AmyBerlin on April 23, 2014, 10:32:56 PM
Dear Alessia,

Let's put it like this: the Botox is only a temporary fix. And what it should fix is debatable, because what Dr. Kim diagnosed in my voice as a tremor in the extreme low range was just the natural vibrato that develops when you don't consciously support the note. Had I supported it properly (as I did the higher notes), the tremor/vibrato wouldn't have been there and the whole debate would be moot.

That is the great unknown. Maybe the Botox aids in the healing process by temporarily relaxing the vocal cords. We don't know, because so far, we've only had Botox candidates here.

Best wishes,

Amy

Thanks for the reply Amy. I have the same feeling about what you said about natural vibrato vs. what Dr. Kim said about tremor; sometimes it's just control and the shape of oral cavity... and vibrato should naturally happen if one sing correctly (this is what I heard from a vocal coach, but I'm not really sure). I don't really see the point to artificially kill those vibratos, and I can't even imagine a singer always sing like a straight line - unless he's/she's singing military music. LOL

So, what's your decision about botox injection? I'm kinda curious ;D

Allyda - I totally understand the issue about insurance coverage. I myself am from Germany. Many things "trans" are insurance covered, including GRS, hair removal and in many cases (after some struggle) breast augmentation. It is hard to judge if it is worth it to really spend a lot of money for something that is covered just because it seems to be better. Still - if I am going to do a voice sugery at all, I will do this. Started sayving money for it last year actually. Voice surgery would be covered if I would do it in Germany, bit I have not heard any really good results from here, and I amy really concerned about hings concerning my body and the rest of my life. Health is more worth than money. Greetings

Quote from: anjaq on April 25, 2014, 11:05:32 AM
Allyda - I totally understand the issue about insurance coverage. I myself am from Germany. Many things "trans" are insurance covered, including GRS, hair removal and in many cases (after some struggle) breast augmentation. It is hard to judge if it is worth it to really spend a lot of money for something that is covered just because it seems to be better. Still - if I am going to do a voice sugery at all, I will do this. Started sayving money for it last year actually. Voice surgery would be covered if I would do it in Germany, bit I have not heard any really good results from here, and I amy really concerned about hings concerning my body and the rest of my life. Health is more worth than money. Greetings

Again Anjaq I reeeaaally appreciate your concern and advice. However before I could even examine the possibility of going to Seoul to get this done I'd need some Idea of the cost involved for both the surgery and the trip. Even then as stated my only option to come up with the amount needed will be to use part of what I get for my refinancing of my current home. Most of this money though will be needed for putting another home on my extra lot to rent out along with my current home when I make my move down south to Okeechobee.

I don't need to know an exact figure, but if one of you girls could pm me with an estimated cost of round trip tickets and most important, Dr. Kim's fee's for the surgery it would help me make a better decision.

Another issue I have is with my age. Being 49, I'm concerned about how many years it might take me to save up enough for the trip and the surgery. If I had an approximation of how much I'd need it'd go along way with helping me make the decision to wait and have Dr. Kim do it, or, just have it done here as planned.

Again I thank every one of you for your concern and opinions.

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Allyda on April 25, 2014, 12:58:31 PM
Again Anjaq I reeeaaally appreciate your concern and advice. However before I could even examine the possibility of going to Seoul to get this done I'd need some Idea of the cost involved for both the surgery and the trip. Even then as stated my only option to come up with the amount needed will be to use part of what I get for my refinancing of my current home. Most of this money though will be needed for putting another home on my extra lot to rent out along with my current home when I make my move down south to Okeechobee.

I don't need to know an exact figure, but if one of you girls could pm me with an estimated cost of round trip tickets and most important, Dr. Kim's fee's for the surgery it would help me make a better decision.

Another issue I have is with my age. Being 49, I'm concerned about how many years it might take me to save up enough for the trip and the surgery. If I had an approximation of how much I'd need it'd go along way with helping me make the decision to wait and have Dr. Kim do it, or, just have it done here as planned.

Again I thank every one of you for your concern and opinions.

Ally :icon_flower:

You're so nice in your responses, Allyda! I am happy to help however I can

Here was my cost breakdown:
Procedure: $7,900 (includes botox and conversion rate)
Hotel: $1,350 (for two)
Food & Travel: ~$1200 (this included some shopping ;))

Total for me: ~$10,500

I stayed in a cheap hotel, if I did it again I would get a nicer hotel with full kitchen!

Thank you soooooo much Jennygirl. That is less than I was thinking it would be. I may be able to swing that out of my refinance as it will still leave me plenty to do the other things I need to do with it.

Looks like I have a big decision to make. I'm seeing my loan officer for the refinance next week on Tuesday. I'll know more then regarding the amount being offered then. Because I only owe around 3-4K on my current home I've alot of equity to deal with.

I of course will keep you all posted on what transpires and my final decision. It's my voice and I have to live with the results so I'd prefer Dr. Kim. There's no substitute for experience.

Thanks again Jennygirl,
Ally :icon_flower:

Hi all,

today I had my final checkup with Dr. Kim and everything looked fabulous in the laryngoscope. He was happy and so was I. He didn't even suggest Botox anymore, so I'm the first one in this forum who will blog about the recovery process without Botox and thus add a different perspective. So Dr. Kim suggested instead to take 1 clonazepam pill/day in the evenings for the first 2 months and 1/2 pill for another month. Next I received the instructions for the vocal exercises I'm supposed to start in 2 months, and that was it. Quite anticlimactic ;-)

Anyway, I'm feeling as good as ever (even though I'm still not allowed to talk yet), had a wonderful stay in Korea (I'd definitely like to come back sometime) and can't wait to see how things will develop further. I'll keep you posted.

Best wishes,

Amy

Hooray - that is pretty neat - no Botox. Thats a first! So your recovery will be faster then? Great that all went so well. Do you have pictures? :P ;) From Korea and from your laryngoscopy of course ;)

Congratulations Amy! :D :D :D

I'm pleased for you too Amy, congrats!  :icon_bunch:

Yes Amy I'm happy to hear your doing spectacular! Congratulations!! :icon_bunch:

Hi all,

thanks for sending so many good wishes. It feels good to know you all care.

We (my S.O. and I) just arrived back in Berlin after a long and exhausting travel day, had a bite to eat, unpacked our things, started the washing machine and by now are totally knocked out.

To answer Anja's question: I was given a comprehensive medical record folder and assumed it also contained the laryngoscopy pics. Well, they're missing. I guess I'll have to get back to Jessie to email them. The other findings are complete. In the coming days, I'll summarize that information for you.

Expect to hear from me soon,

Amy

Amy,

Congrats on your surgery and returning home without problem. I was visiting Hawaii while you were in Seoul. People in Seoul surely were not at good mood, because of the ferry accident. Here we cancelled or delayed all upcoming outdoor events.

Hoping a smooth recovery and satisfactory results for you.

barbie~~

Yes congrat's Amy on a succesful trip and a safe return. My best wishes for speedy recovery.

Ally :icon_flower:

Dear Barbie,

thanks for the good wishes. Yes, everybody was still quite in shock over the ferry accident and at the entrance to Seoul Children's Grand Park (near which we stayed) they put up a wall where everybody that was grieving the loss of a loved one could hang a commemorative ribbon. So the mood was quite subdued.

Still people were very friendly and warm-hearted and we're thinking about coming back to Korea for a holiday. We'd need to learn more Korean though, because many people cannot speak English.

Being not able to speak anyway, I learned to write Hangeul, which proved an enormous asset when placing an order in a restaurant and similar situations.

Regards,

Amy

P.S. @ Anja: Re pictures of Korea: we did take a lot. However, since we're both "chrome age" camera buffs, we shot film. In the course of the next days, I'll set aside some lab time to do the developing. Expect more news when I'm done.

Hi everybody,

I'm now going on 2 weeks post-VFS and "officially" I'm allowed to say 1-2 words a day. However, when I tried, one time, my vocal cords did not make a sound at all, the other time it was sounding all "wobbly" and unstable. So I stopped immediately in order to not mess things up.

Can anybody with postop experience clue me in if this is something to worry about or not? Today is postoperative day 12.

Regards,

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 05, 2014, 03:25:30 AM
Can anybody with postop experience clue me in if this is something to worry about or not? Today is postoperative day 12.

Lol... Well not only is it common to not be able to make any noises that early on, it is also very common to have extreme anxiety about it ;)

I'm sure you're doing just fine Amy! Hang in there! I know how impatient one can get while waiting to hear the new voice :D

Thank you, Jenny, for easing my mind a little!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 05, 2014, 06:17:51 AM
I'm sure you're doing just fine Amy! Hang in there!

I'm trying my best! Up to now, I think I deserve a gold medal for following Dr. Kim's instructions (I STILL miss morning coffee, though *g*). My mind knows it's more than likely everything will be just fine, it's just the sceptic in me that refuses to believe.

Hugs,

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 05, 2014, 11:44:27 AM
Thank you, Jenny, for easing my mind a little!

I'm trying my best! Up to now, I think I deserve a gold medal for following Dr. Kim's instructions (I STILL miss morning coffee, though *g*). My mind knows it's more than likely everything will be just fine, it's just the sceptic in me that refuses to believe.

Hugs,

Amy

Not allowed to drink coffee at all during the healing? How long must you resist coffee?


-MegC

Quote from: MeganChristine on May 05, 2014, 05:23:16 PM

Not allowed to drink coffee at all during the healing? How long must you resist coffee?


-MegC

To me the ice cream would more than make up for the lack of coffee, lol!

Congrats amy!!! Welcome back home.. Be patient and you'll be hearing your new voice soon! :) i cant wait for my surgery in june. Yayyy! Thanks to all the girls here who have experienced it. Kisses to all!! Xoxo

Quote from: Allyda on May 06, 2014, 05:28:18 AM
To me the ice cream would more than make up for the lack of coffee, lol!

But my V60 with Ethiopian coffee, my morning fix... There is no ice cream, oh wait, pistachio! *drool*

I guess I can manage ;))

-MegC

Hi MegC,

Quote from: MeganChristine on May 05, 2014, 05:23:16 PM
How long must you resist coffee?

The recovery instructions they enumerated to me are:

absolute voice rest: 1 week
no heavy lifting: 3 weeks
minimal voice usage: 1 month
no singing/yelling: 2 months
no carbonated/caffeinated/alcoholic beverages, hot/salty/greasy foods: 2 months
no smoking: 3 months

Regards,

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 07, 2014, 12:16:08 AM
Hi MegC,

The recovery instructions they enumerated to me are:

absolute voice rest: 1 week
no heavy lifting: 3 weeks
minimal voice usage: 1 month
no singing/yelling: 2 months
no carbonated/caffeinated/alcoholic beverages, hot/salty/greasy foods: 2 months
no smoking: 3 months

Regards,

Amy

Thank you so much, should be totally doable :D Need to stay off the chili-wagon too, I see. The sacrifices we make to reach our goals. ;)

Amy I'm sincerely happy for you as it seems your doing well. Congrat's Girl!

I'm actually looking forward to an ice cream diet. I'll have to watch my portions though. I wouldn't want to damage my girlish figure, lol!

Ally :icon_flower:

My figure is already ruined. Water ice cubes would be right for me ;)

how about stevia sweetened ice shavings ;)

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 07, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
how about stevia sweetened ice shavings ;)

I never had them before. What do they taste like?

Me I looove my very decadent but tastey Vanilla chocolate swirl, and Butter Pecan Ice cream real and fattening!, lol

Hey, I'm allowed some weaknesses gals.

Ally :icon_flower:

Stevia seems cool. I never saw it for sale as ice cream though. I need to loose like 30 kilos, thats what? 50 pounds or so? No way I will touch ice cream regularly ;) . Someone claimed my current voice fits me because I am so big. So I guess I need to change both then ;)

Quote from: anjaq on May 08, 2014, 09:51:02 AM
Stevia seems cool. I never saw it for sale as ice cream though. I need to loose like 30 kilos, thats what? 50 pounds or so? No way I will touch ice cream regularly ;) . Someone claimed my current voice fits me because I am so big. So I guess I need to change both then ;)

Oh Anja,
      It's just those Northern European Germanic genes, I'm a Nordic type, we both fight the same battle hon!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 07, 2014, 10:36:34 PM
how about stevia sweetened ice shavings ;)

Hi jennygirl!

What sorts of food did u eat there while on your 7 days voice rest? More like liquid food? Or doesnt matter
As log as it is not spicy? Thanks! :)

**love ice creams.. But i caugh when eating a lot haha

You can eat pretty much normal food but you're advised not to eat spicy or salty food as this dries out the throat. You have to drink tons of water too. No alcohol, fizzy sodas, coffee or tea. I've never drunk so much water per day ever in my life, but it's all in a good cause.

In Seoul you can eat in the markets (the pancake thing is OK). It's filling and non spicy. Also the KFC (Korean Fried Chicken) is wonderful. Our hotel was literally 5 mins from Kwangchang Market and all the food stalls. So don't worry there's plenty to eat, and if you get bored of Korean food (how could you ?) there's always McDonalds or Burger King.
Good luck.

Quote from: Jmtl on May 09, 2014, 09:57:51 AM
Hi jennygirl!

What sorts of food did u eat there while on your 7 days voice rest? More like liquid food? Or doesnt matter
As log as it is not spicy? Thanks! :)

**love ice creams.. But i caugh when eating a lot haha

lots and lots and lots of hot stone bimbimbap (with soy sauce or sesame oil to avoid spicy)

I could eat the stuff forever. And I still do, I live 5min away from Koreatown in LA ;)

Quote from: Saskia on May 09, 2014, 10:59:26 AM
You can eat pretty much normal food but you're advised not to eat spicy or salty food as this dries out the throat. You have to drink tons of water too. No alcohol, fizzy sodas, coffee or tea. I've never drunk so much water per day ever in my life, but it's all in a good cause.

In Seoul you can eat in the markets (the pancake thing is OK). It's filling and non spicy. Also the KFC (Korean Fried Chicken) is wonderful. Our hotel was literally 5 mins from Kwangchang Market and all the food stalls. So don't worry there's plenty to eat, and if you get bored of Korean food (how could you ?) there's always McDonalds or Burger King.
Good luck.

Awwww thank you so much saskia! Ill keep that in mind.  :) yah, i love food in the markets and specially street exotic foods, im just scared maybe its spicy. And no, i wont be bored with korean food, im there just to eat it. Ha! :)

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 09, 2014, 12:28:48 PM
lots and lots and lots of hot stone bimbimbap (with soy sauce or sesame oil to avoid spicy)

I could eat the stuff forever. And I still do, I live 5min away from Koreatown in LA ;)

Ha!!  :)  ok, thank you!! I love bimbim too.. Maybe we could have a bite when i come to la next time.  :)
Btw, u have to avoid sneezing too?  I have a very itchy nose (allergy)  most of the time. Hard to avoid it though.  >:(

Quote from: Jmtl on May 09, 2014, 07:48:32 PM
Ha!!  :)  ok, thank you!! I love bimbim too.. Maybe we could have a bite when i come to la next time.  :)
Btw, u have to avoid sneezing too?  I have a very itchy nose (allergy)  most of the time. Hard to avoid it though.  >:(

I am always down for bap

And yes the no sneezing was hard for me, too. I have allergies and also caught a cold as soon as I got home. It was pretty gnarly- my anxiety and impatience with my immune system was at an all time high!

Hi All,
I wanted to thank Amy for this really great thread. It's helped ease my doubts about going to Yeson next month (off 4 weeks today!). And of course I'd also like to thank Jenny, Sarah, Abby and all the girls who went before. I'm 16 years post-transition and have settled into a fairly quiet (!) life and I do sometimes wonder what I'm doing flying thousands of miles to fix something which sort of works. Having said that I've always struggled with my voice and even these days I still have problems on the phone and in stressful situations I'll stay mute rather than potentially out myself. I'm a bass-baritone (I can still get down to D2), and used to love singing, so if I can get manage to sing again that would be incredible. Frankly I'll be happy with even a minor improvement in my voice though!

Amy when you asked Dr Kim about his suture technique did he say anything about why he uses permanent sutures rather than absorbable? I mean the sutures are in there forever! I wonder if it's possible to remove them endoscopically if they ever caused a problem in later life?

Finally I really recommend Amy's suggestion of learning to read Hangul. I never realised it was just an alphabet and there's lots of online games to help; so it doesn't take too long to learn   ;)

Hugs

Charlotte

Hi Charlotte. I find it fascinating how many of "us" there seem to be - Just like Amy and you, I am also in the same range - 16 years post transition and wonder why the heck I am now of all times thinking about voice and surgeries and maybe even FFS and all sorts of transition stuff again. Its odd, like we somehow are missing some sort of detachment from the whole topic that we cannot get as long as something keeps reminding us of this whole trans issue. Do you have more issues that you are thinking of as well? What voice training did you do up to now and why do you plan for VFS now anyways? I was told by so many people that supposedly with time and proper training the trained feminine voice would become natural habit and come out in all situations, but tht was not my experience, but then again I was told that I did not use the "right" voice training and that this was the cause. So i am trying a differnt one now which is tiresome and tedious and takes more time than I have which is why I cannot really keep it up with the schedule. But I fugured as I can afford VFS financially and time-wise only in fall 2015, I can as well try that for now and see how it goes.
Anyways, I would be interested to hear about your experiences with voice up to now, what leads you to have VFS now after such a long time and maybe you can describe as well what will change for you post-op. e.g. how does it feel, what is easier, what takes the same effort etc. - Congrats anyways to your decision to go for it :D

Quote from: anjaq on May 10, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
Hi Charlotte. I find it fascinating how many of "us" there seem to be - Just like Amy and you, I am also in the same range - 16 years post transition and wonder why the heck I am now of all times thinking about voice and surgeries and maybe even FFS and all sorts of transition stuff again. Its odd, like we somehow are missing some sort of detachment from the whole topic that we cannot get as long as something keeps reminding us of this whole trans issue. Do you have more issues that you are thinking of as well? What voice training did you do up to now and why do you plan for VFS now anyways? I was told by so many people that supposedly with time and proper training the trained feminine voice would become natural habit and come out in all situations, but tht was not my experience, but then again I was told that I did not use the "right" voice training and that this was the cause. So i am trying a differnt one now which is tiresome and tedious and takes more time than I have which is why I cannot really keep it up with the schedule. But I fugured as I can afford VFS financially and time-wise only in fall 2015, I can as well try that for now and see how it goes.
Anyways, I would be interested to hear about your experiences with voice up to now, what leads you to have VFS now after such a long time and maybe you can describe as well what will change for you post-op. e.g. how does it feel, what is easier, what takes the same effort etc. - Congrats anyways to your decision to go for it :D

Hi Anja,
Yes it's very interesting how we're all going back and revisiting this transition stuff. I'm also thinking of having a hair transplant to sort out my classic 'M' shaped temples and maybe straightening my teeth, but mostly it's the voice. I just feel it's holding me back. My caution in using my voice makes me socially awkward when meeting new people and I tend to come across as either being shy or aloof - which isn't like me at all. Also I try to avoid making phone calls as well.
I can't quite explain why I'm doing all this now though. I would love to know other people reasons. I wonder if there's a golden thread running through it. Maybe for me personally it's because I have a nagging doubt that I've not been fully socially accepted a woman. I should mention I'm stealth  ::) so it's all a bit of a guessing game as to what people really think. Alternative it could all be a mid-life crisis ;D
I went through about 3 speech therapists in the late 90s which didn't help that much, then I copied off a friend who'd perfected her voice and that's what worked for me. I used to think it was because I hadn't worked hard enough on it - I did actually work very hard - but now I think it's probably the people who succeeded with their voices just had a physiologically better suited larynx. For instance, I've analysed with Praat a youtube video of someone (I wont name her) who demonstrates both her old voice and new trained voice. Her old voice is about 155Hz and her new voice is about 190Hz. I'm naturally about 110Hz and I'd be happy to have a 155Hz voice! So I think what I'm saying is 'one-size' doesn't fit all. Some people are just naturally going to find it easier to achieve a nice voice.   

Hugs

Charlotte

Hi, Charlotte.
This is pretty interesting indeed. We seem to share a lot. Actually I am hoping to see some improvement now for hair regrowth at the temples by applying progerserone gel there. I am seeing some success, reducing that M-Shape a bit. dont know if it will save me any other procedures I considered.

Quote from: Charlotte on May 10, 2014, 05:38:03 PM
mostly it's the voice. I just feel it's holding me back. My caution in using my voice makes me socially awkward when meeting new people and I tend to come across as either being shy or aloof - which isn't like me at all. Also I try to avoid making phone calls as well.
.... Maybe for me personally it's because I have a nagging doubt that I've not been fully socially accepted a woman. I should mention I'm stealth  ::) so it's all a bit of a guessing game as to what people really think. Alternative it could all be a mid-life crisis ;D

Yeah , dito. People always say I am shy. I am talkig a lo tmore nowadays but just because I am ignoring my voice somehow in these situations... I dont know... I also wonder if it is mid life crisis. whats your age if I may ask? I am almost 40. Transitioned at 23. Trying to be stealth but am not sure how well that works. I get asked about my voice a lot and some times last year I was misgendered which totall yshocked me and broke my bubble about being convinced to be stealth... :(

QuoteI used to think it was because I hadn't worked hard enough on it - I did actually work very hard - but now I think it's probably the people who succeeded with their voices just had a physiologically better suited larynx. For instance, I've analysed with Praat a youtube video of someone (I wont name her) who demonstrates both her old voice and new trained voice. Her old voice is about 155Hz and her new voice is about 190Hz. I'm naturally about 110Hz and I'd be happy to have a 155Hz voice!

I totally get that. This is what I think too. so many people say "you can do it with therapy alone, I did it and I had such a male voice. Then they play it and it is like 140 Hz or so. Add 40 to that and you are in female vocal range by a good margin. Mine is almost exactly like yours then, 100-110 Hz. I can manage to get the same change like others - +40 Hz. End up talking at 140-150 Hz if I do what I can do.  This is still in the male range and below the lower female range. My dream would be to be at 180 or so without having to strain my voice. So I think physiology is really working against me and in favour of some people that say it can all be done easily with therapy.

I hope you will post some recordings from before and after your surgery there and describe a bit how the change feels like. If I may, I would also like to PM you to stay in contact as your physiology and background in terms of transitioning and in terms of voice seems to match mine so well, that I think your experiences with VFS are more applicable to me than some of the others here. THX

Greetings

I am 27 years post op, and have lived more than half my my life as female. My voice was 95% OK, however I occasionally got misgendered on the phone which was a huge blow and felt like a dagger through the heart. I guess I could've managed without the VFS since my pitch is 165Hz. But after hearing Jenny and Sarah decided this was something I definately wanted to do. I retrained my voice after transition by copying my female colleagues at work and by using my head voice. This worked really well, for many years and I thought that it was the best I could do until I discovered VFS. My partner and family were dead against me going but I'm so glad I went ahead. I too thought I'd finished with surgeries but I was drawn back in. I've promised everyone thats it now. I'm stealth too and had to invent reasons why my face was going to change (FFS) and why my voice might go higher as the months pass by.
If I can achieve the 75hz extra suggested by Dr Kim, I'll be ecstatic, but my goal is to never ever get misgendered again because of my voice.

My best wishes to all those girls who are going to Yesons.
Saskia 

Saskia, 27 years must almost be the record except for Eva. You even did FFS? Why that, too, if you really are living stealth and only had the voice issues on the phone mostly? Was it that you just were not happy with your face when you saw yourself? I read a few reports from FFS people about the nerve damages they have and I am scared away from that, but up to now most VFS with Dr Kim seem to go well, so its an option for similar reasons - not ever being misgendered or questioned about being trans again for voice reasons. I am not sure it can provide that result for me or if it is needed to get there but I do still consider it. I would however also be happy if I could hear from you, Saskia about how it will be for you and how it does feel and compare to before. Not so much about what other people hear or say about it but how it is for yourself - what changes iin the way you can and have to use the voice and how does it feel like. I keep imagining that it is just easier to reach a higher pitch later and that the low pitch is blocked and that for some magic reason the average speaking pitch is subconsciously raised as well - ideally one does not have to use as much pitch and resonance control later... lots of things I would hope for. So I hope you will write a bit about how things change for you, Saskia, as well :)

i hate being misgendered over the phone as well .. ugh .. it sucks  :embarrassed:

Quote from: anjaq on May 11, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
Saskia, 27 years must almost be the record except for Eva. You even did FFS? Why that, too, if you really are living stealth and only had the voice issues on the phone mostly? Was it that you just were not happy with your face when you saw yourself? I read a few reports from FFS people about the nerve damages they have and I am scared away from that, but up to now most VFS with Dr Kim seem to go well, so its an option for similar reasons - not ever being misgendered or questioned about being trans again for voice reasons. I am not sure it can provide that result for me or if it is needed to get there but I do still consider it. I would however also be happy if I could hear from you, Saskia about how it will be for you and how it does feel and compare to before. Not so much about what other people hear or say about it but how it is for yourself - what changes iin the way you can and have to use the voice and how does it feel like. I keep imagining that it is just easier to reach a higher pitch later and that the low pitch is blocked and that for some magic reason the average speaking pitch is subconsciously raised as well - ideally one does not have to use as much pitch and resonance control later... lots of things I would hope for. So I hope you will write a bit about how things change for you, Saskia, as well :)

Hi Anjaq - I went for FFS a few years back as I hated looking in the mirror and seeing what I considered to be a male face staring back, even though, again I was fine 99.9% of the time sometimes I felt someone had clocked me. Maybe it was my imagination or confidence at a low level.
So I decided to do something about it. Dr Zukowski was doing a visit to my town and I went along. I liked what I heard and 4 months later I had it done. I told my work colleagues and friends I was having a face lift to keep my secret a secret. The FFS worked wonderfully for me and I'm very happy with Dr Z's work. Now my confidence is 100% and I've had no nerve damage or any other issues and never even consider that I've been clocked.
I'm in the only speaking a couple of words per day phase of the recovery, but for those few words I have spoken, my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does. I've seen the post op photos after the final inspection at Yeson and can see the assymetry is gone and the folds are closing properly. I'm hopeful for a good final outcome. I will write about the changes and if I can pluck up the courage post up some samples. If you have other questions you can drop me a PM.

Best wishes
Saskia

Hi Saskia- I would say that some post surgical anxiety ~feeling like the voice is "not much different"~ is completely normal and almost to be expected. Keep in mind that you will have to retrain your brain to use the higher pitches once they are available. Part of the reason it might seem similar now is because your upper range is practically nonexistent until month 3 or 4. Until then, you'll be limited to the lowest register of your new voice- possibly even lower if there is swelling (this makes the vocal cords heavier and lower pitched).

The less you talk, the faster that swelling will go away to reveal the upper range. Sit tight and take it easy, it won't be long and you will notice your new voice kind of fluffs up to the higher pitches. You will have to be active and aware for this to happen, because you still have to retrain your brain to adjust to the new range. Try not to get used to talking in the low voice you may find early in recovery... you will realize that is the absolute bottom end of your new voice

I also transitioned in my twenties (28), and I'm 45 now. At the time in the late 90s I was by far the youngest person I knew going through this. I think it would have been really fun if we'd all known each other back then! I certainly felt I missed out not knowing anyone else in my age group - having to deal with rather different issues from the older ones.

Quote from: anjaq on May 10, 2014, 07:23:08 PM

I totally get that. This is what I think too. so many people say "you can do it with therapy alone, I did it and I had such a male voice. Then they play it and it is like 140 Hz or so. Add 40 to that and you are in female vocal range by a good margin. Mine is almost exactly like yours then, 100-110 Hz. I can manage to get the same change like others - +40 Hz. End up talking at 140-150 Hz if I do what I can do.  This is still in the male range and below the lower female range. My dream would be to be at 180 or so without having to strain my voice. So I think physiology is really working against me and in favour of some people that say it can all be done easily with therapy.

Yes, absolutely. I think what happens is people hear their resonance and confuse it with pitch and say "I had such a low voice" without actually confirming it on Praat.
I'm not sure if I have the courage to post my voice samples publicly, but I'm happy to answer any questions if I can. ;)

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 02:12:29 AM
I am 27 years post op, and have lived more than half my my life as female. My voice was 95% OK, however I occasionally got misgendered on the phone which was a huge blow and felt like a dagger through the heart. I guess I could've managed without the VFS since my pitch is 165Hz. But after hearing Jenny and Sarah decided this was something I definately wanted to do. I retrained my voice after transition by copying my female colleagues at work and by using my head voice. This worked really well, for many years and I thought that it was the best I could do until I discovered VFS. My partner and family were dead against me going but I'm so glad I went ahead. I too thought I'd finished with surgeries but I was drawn back in. I've promised everyone thats it now. I'm stealth too and had to invent reasons why my face was going to change (FFS) and why my voice might go higher as the months pass by.
If I can achieve the 75hz extra suggested by Dr Kim, I'll be ecstatic, but my goal is to never ever get misgendered again because of my voice.

My best wishes to all those girls who are going to Yesons.
Saskia

Hi Saskia,
Thank you for your good wishes! I can completely relate to the dagger in the heart feeling. I can't really explain why it hurts so much - perhaps even more now than it used to.
I wonder if after FFS you noticed any subtle changes in the way people relate to you? This would be the reason if I do anything further to my face. For me my hairline usually results in hairdressers clocking me (maybe their 'gaydar' is better?) which depending on how professional they are can range from the very subtle to the  overt. I'm also limited to rather rigid hairstyles, and am always conscious to keep my hair in position. So although having  surgery would make life less bothersome I wonder how much it would alter peoples reactions to me (which are good but I feel could be better).

Hugs

Charlotte

Quote from: Saskia on May 09, 2014, 10:59:26 AM
Also the KFC (Korean Fried Chicken) is wonderful.

Saskia,

It is the same branch of Kentucky Fried Chicken, although the recipes can be a little bit different and localized. My kids like fried chicken too much, but I warn them not to eat frequently, because it contains a lot of unhealthy fat. Adults here tend to enjoy traditionally boiled chicken, especially in summer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samgyetang . It is not so much spicy, and more healthy. I especially like hot noddle with boiled chicken, and I eat at least twice per week for lunch. My favorite chicken noodle:

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5232/13974526837_fa36457ebd_z.jpg)

Virtually all kinds of food around the world are available in Seoul, but it will take at least several months to find out your favorites. Always be careful to any food in red. Also, avoid green pepper and uncooked garlic, which are virtually ubiquitous in Korean restaurants. Even to my tongue, they are too much spicy.

barbie~~

Hi Barbie - Regarding KFC, i meant the real Korean double Fried Chicken (not the US chain), in small family owned restaurants or cafes. We had a really nice one round the corner from our hotel in Jongno district. We ended up going there 3 times it was so good.

Hi Charlotte - If you hate your hairline and you have some spare money, you might consider having hair transplants to fill in the M shape. I had mine done with Dr Z's team in Chicago. They made a great job and my hairline issue is now history. Regarding subtle changes after FFS, thats a difficult one. The changes were more than subtle. I'd already told work colleagues I was having a face lift so they expected some differences. It was an amazing transformation and made such a massive change to my confidence levels.

Hi Jenny - Thanks for that useful information. I'm very impatient, but am trying to do everything I was told to do by Dr Kim

Best wishes
Saskia

Hi, Saskia, Charlotte, Jenny

Quote from: Charlotte on May 11, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
I also transitioned in my twenties (28), and I'm 45 now. At the time in the late 90s I was by far the youngest person I knew going through this. I think it would have been really fun if we'd all known each other back then!
I certainly felt I missed out not knowing anyone else in my age group - having to deal with rather different issues from the older ones.

Indeed!
I was so tired of people descirbing the issues with career and marriage and all of that plus different issues regarding "passing". Plus they kept claiming that I should have no problems due to my age. they were envious like hell and let me feel it. If I mentioned not "passing" in some situations, they claimed I should start to wear skirts and makeup - which I did not really want to do. I was a girl no matter what clothes and did not want to rely on these things ;) - ah well That was then in the 1990ies. Funny that you basically have a similar age and transition timeline then as me and now also experience a bit of a "transition reloaded" by re visiting some of the issues that just dug in over the years.
For me it is mainly three things - my body shape still is bad, in part due to some level of obesity, my face still looks "male" to me in some hours and on some days, my voice sounds too male to me. I think  only the latter one is what really gets me in trouble with others, but both other aspects play a role as well, so I have a priority list of things to do in transition 2.0 ;) to finally get rid of that nagging feeling that followed me over the years.

QuoteYes, absolutely. I think what happens is people hear their resonance and confuse it with pitch and say "I had such a low voice" without actually confirming it on Praat.
I'm not sure if I have the courage to post my voice samples publicly, but I'm happy to answer any questions if I can. ;)

Indeed. I was sent some voice samples like "look, that woman has such a deep voice but she is definitely a woman (cis) and it sounds like that too". Loaded them in praat and they were at like 170 Hz. Which is basically what I would like to aim at :P - So yeah - I would be ok with a voice like that but mine actually IS deeper. Also of course yes people confuse resonance with pitch and just have a very resonant male-ish voice before and then take that as "I had suuuuch a deep voice". then it turns out they were at 140 Hz or so. That is like 30 Hz higher than my original voice and thus half a VFS away already ;)

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 11, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
Keep in mind that you will have to retrain your brain to use the higher pitches once they are available.

I dont quite understand - the upper range was there before VFS as well, wasn't it? I mean my vocal range now if I sing is up in the 800+ Hz range - no way I want to talk there :P - But the new speaking range at 180-240 Hz is well within my current possibilities, so they are theoretically "available" now already, if I could "Train my brain to use it"?? So I do not wuite understand this comment. I am sure you meant it differently.

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 07:47:56 AM
Hi Anjaq - I went for FFS a few years back as I hated looking in the mirror and seeing what I considered to be a male face staring back, even though, again I was fine 99.9% of the time sometimes I felt someone had clocked me. Maybe it was my imagination or confidence at a low level.
So I decided to do something about it. Dr Zukowski was doing a visit to my town and I went along. I liked what I heard and 4 months later I had it done. I told my work colleagues and friends I was having a face lift to keep my secret a secret. The FFS worked wonderfully for me and I'm very happy with Dr Z's work. Now my confidence is 100% and I've had no nerve damage or any other issues and never even consider that I've been clocked.

Interesting. You are lucky that you are such a fast decision maker ;) - I am carrying that though for very much the same reasons with me now already for half a year. I mostly see my own face as "it has male traits in it", while others claim there are none. Maybe this is a stupid reason for a FFS I think then, as obviously it is a mental problem and not a physical one and maybe it cannot be corrected by surgery? But in your case it worked, obviously. Did you have a lot done? I read like 10 reports about nerve damage lately , though that was from Dr van Veen in Belgium, so maybe his procedures who are known to be very radical changes are a bit more risky as well. Good to hear that it improved your confidence so much. :)

QuoteI'm in the only speaking a couple of words per day phase of the recovery, but for those few words I have spoken, my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does. I've seen the post op photos after the final inspection at Yeson and can see the assymetry is gone and the folds are closing properly. I'm hopeful for a good final outcome. I will write about the changes and if I can pluck up the courage post up some samples. If you have other questions you can drop me a PM.

I think I may get back to that offer ;) - interesting also how many people have asymmetry - I wonder if it is a result of long term speaking in a femme voice. I have it too.

Greetings

Quote from: Saskia on May 11, 2014, 07:47:56 AM
my voice doesn't sound much different from pre-op. We were told that the pitch level will raise as the months go by and by the end of one year post op will have reached the maximum. I sincerely hope it does.

+1 I've been speaking for some days now, and at times it feels like my words sounds very similar to before, just a lot weaker.  Yes I can talk in a head voice to raise it, but my volume becomes so small when I do, others can't really hear me at all and words just cut out.   The biggest kick in the teeth, is being taken my people calling in at work, taking me as....male ("is that ......?" - a male manager in my work place).  It was extremely extremely depressing when it happened to me on Friday and has just happened again and feels much much worse than any time before traveling out to Korea.  I know my voice is "upped" a little I guess, I just hope my voice does indeed gets stronger and becomes higher by itself soon, as Dr Kim said I'll only need to talk with my chest to get the result needed, and that certainly isn't happening now.  very despressed right now, but sadly I have to answer phone and speak at work right now, so can't stay silent :(

Quote from: anjaq on May 11, 2014, 03:46:23 PM
Indeed!
I was so tired of people descirbing the issues with career and marriage and all of that plus different issues regarding "passing". Plus they kept claiming that I should have no problems due to my age. they were envious like hell and let me feel it. If I mentioned not "passing" in some situations, they claimed I should start to wear skirts and makeup - which I did not really want to do. I was a girl no matter what clothes and did not want to rely on these things ;) - ah well That was then in the 1990ies. Funny that you basically have a similar age and transition timeline then as me and now also experience a bit of a "transition reloaded" by re visiting some of the issues that just dug in over the years.
For me it is mainly three things - my body shape still is bad, in part due to some level of obesity, my face still looks "male" to me in some hours and on some days, my voice sounds too male to me. I think  only the latter one is what really gets me in trouble with others, but both other aspects play a role as well, so I have a priority list of things to do in transition 2.0 ;) to finally get rid of that nagging feeling that followed me over the years.

Yes like you the voice is the number one priority in transition 2.0 (great name BTW!).

I wonder if tying off only 1/3 of the vocal folds is going to be enough in my case. After all these year and effort I really want this surgery to be a success. I know Dr Kim wants to play things safe, but frankly at this stage I'm happy to take risks.

Incidently, I think I have a hunch why Dr Kim uses permanent sutures. It could be something to do with how the scar tissues matures over the first year. If it's not held in place firmly it will distort.  Maybe that's it? I'll ask him when I see him.

Charlotte

So sorry to hear you are upset Daniella, the only thing I can say is stick with it and give it time. Early on in my recovery I was called sir at the drive-thru a few times and it destroyed me, I am familiar with the feeling.

After a while you do get the power back and the ability to talk loudly at higher pitches, but it will never be quite the same as high pitched cis females (if your experience is anything like mine). But after a while, your voice will most likely be virtually unclockable in all situations once you really get used to it. Takes a lot of time!

If you have to talk a lot at your job be ever so careful with your voice. Trying to force it is only going to hinder your recovery, especially if you have vocal tremor.

Try not to get depressed. You will have good voice days and bad voice days, but eventually it will all even out to something that feels normal. I still have bad voice days fyi ;) especially if I don't get enough sleep... sleep is KEY

Hopefully that helps. Feel better and trust that eventually you are going to be very happy with your result. It is such a mind game, I know!

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 12, 2014, 03:48:34 PM

Try not to get depressed. You will have good voice days and bad voice days, but eventually it will all even out to something that feels normal. I still have bad voice days fyi ;) especially if I don't get enough sleep... sleep is KEY

Now this I can agree with. I had VFS with Yeson just about a year ago now and it has been a lot of work to get my voice to where I want it but it took a couple of months from the surgery to sound good in my opinion.
It got worse when I had to stop taking the Clonazepam too since I guess that made my voice more breathy or vocal chords just easier to control?

I had a tough time a few weeks ago where my voice dropped (after sounding good for months) because I got a really bad cough for a week or two and I guess the coughing stretched things out for a bit. Yeson advised that I start taking the Clonazepam again and I've been doing lip trills which has got it back to normal though :)

I am ah, not that good at doing the right things after surgery, but I think the result was successful although not as pronounced as some people on this forum :) The surgery (in my opinion) improves how your voice sounds at higher pitches, learning how to use those higher pitches is something Yeson do try to help with but there was a lot of learning I had to do by myself on that part.

Hey voodle. Great to hear you are happy now too. Sounds like a lot of voice training was needed for you to get your voice up  - what so you feel that the surgery did improve that you could not have gained with voice training again? you mentioned a better sound at higher frequencies - also a cutoff of the low frequencies so that you cannot accidentially drop into a male range???

I never took the clonazepam / klonopins. I kind of hate benzo's, they make me feel tired and wacky.

Glad to hear you are feeling better about things voodle! Very very glad :) I've actually noticed my voice is still getting better now almost exactly at a year. Just got a complement last night from my roommate that made my week :D

Quote from: anjaq on May 13, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
Hey voodle. Great to hear you are happy now too. Sounds like a lot of voice training was needed for you to get your voice up  - what so you feel that the surgery did improve that you could not have gained with voice training again? you mentioned a better sound at higher frequencies - also a cutoff of the low frequencies so that you cannot accidentially drop into a male range???

It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered enough on the phone that I got frustrated with it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1IL24PWe1fE (it's kinda loud and badly recorded!) and there's an example of the lip trills I'm so fond of.

It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone. This is what I figured out back in october and it was quite uncomfortable to do initially. I also don't understand why my speech therapist never focused on that?

Jennygirl: that's awesome :) I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again :)

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Quote from: voodle on May 13, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
Jennygirl: that's awesome :) I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again :)

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Dang girl! How many did they give you? I only had a 3 month supply

Do whatever with the threads, it's all kind of jumbled at this point :eusa_shifty:

I've been thinking about making a wiki page somewhere to make the information easier to access

Quote from: Charlotte on May 12, 2014, 03:01:33 PM
Yes like you the voice is the number one priority in transition 2.0 (great name BTW!).

I wonder if tying off only 1/3 of the vocal folds is going to be enough in my case. After all these year and effort I really want this surgery to be a success. I know Dr Kim wants to play things safe, but frankly at this stage I'm happy to take risks.

Incidently, I think I have a hunch why Dr Kim uses permanent sutures. It could be something to do with how the scar tissues matures over the first year. If it's not held in place firmly it will distort.  Maybe that's it? I'll ask him when I see him.

Charlotte

Hello,

I have read that Dr. Kim ties off 1/2 to 1/3 depending on the individual, but does anyone know what would happen if a person got tied at 2/3? would the person sound like a chipmunk? lol.

Or a squeaky toy :p

Hi Jenny,

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 13, 2014, 06:58:31 PM
I've been thinking about making a wiki page somewhere to make the information easier to access

That's a great idea. If you need any help, feel free to ask me. Since a lot of posting has gone on over the last days in this thread which I had planned to use for my recovery notes, and I had to catch up with backed-up paperwork, I honestly didn't know where to start answering all these postings. So I'd be all for a wiki information site.

Suffice it to say, I'm past the 3-week postop mark and now manage to produce some reasonably clear tones. Yesterday I was in fear because I was drawn into an argument with somebody and started to cry. It was so hard to muster up the amount of body control necessary to not make a sound while you're in tears. And it was all so needless, to boot. I was so afraid I'd mess up the surgery. Today I feel better again, though. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Strenuous exercise is also allowed again after the 3-week mark. I have to head out for a conference now, but girls, am I looking forward to a trip to the gym when I come back at five!

The last week of silence will also pass by quickly. More on this later!

Take care,

Amy

Quote from: voodle on May 13, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered ....
It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone.

It sounds good if your voice settles higher now more easily, thats definitely a plus. I am not sure about the recording - it sounds fine to me throughout but I guess I am not the best person to judge such things.

What still confuses me is why one needs to train to raise pitch. Basically this is what my voice therapist is trying now already - we do lip trills a lot plus exercises with exxagerrated questions - the goal there is to go really up in pitch at the end of saying for example "what?" and by that get more comfortable using the upper range. I found I also will actually have a higher pitch overall if I do a lot of these. But my hope somehow is that with a VFS this would not be needed so much or be easier. Because I have a hard time to get up in pitch and stay there with training exercises a lot. My therapist claims if I do this really a lot and practice daily, that I would be able to raise my pitch (she is opposed to VFS, so I apologize if some of her doubts seep through me now ;) ).
So basically what training are you doing then? Lip trills only or do you also do some other exercises?

Greetings

Quote from: voodle on May 13, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
It's hard to explain, I can sort of use the lower pitch range but I guess my voice settles into a higher range more easily now? Here's a recording I did for someone - the latter part is basically how I sounded after the voice surgery once my voice healed up, which got me misgendered enough on the phone that I got frustrated with it: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1IL24PWe1fE (it's kinda loud and badly recorded!) and there's an example of the lip trills I'm so fond of.

It wasn't a *lot* of voice training, it's really been one specific thing, which was learning to raise my pitch by doing lip trills, which I think strengthened a number of muscles that weren't strong enough to hold my larynx in the right place for the right pitch / tone. This is what I figured out back in october and it was quite uncomfortable to do initially. I also don't understand why my speech therapist never focused on that?

Jennygirl: that's awesome :) I'm glad your voice is still improving too. I am not that fond of the clonazepam either but Yeson advised taking them since I was pretty scared after my cough did drop my pitch back to a lower range, I'm about to run out of them anyways so it's time to wean myself off of them again :)

edit: I might make my own thread in a few days to stop messing up other people's threads

Hi Voodle,
I listened to the recording and it's absolutely female. For my 2 cents the second half is more an issue of resonance rather than pitch. To me it just sounds like a woman trying to do a serious voice maybe like a news presenter. So whoever misgendered you wasn't listening very closely IYSWIM.   I'm very glad it all worked out ok for you in the end! Out of interest how does the second half of your recording compare with your pre-surgery voice?

Quote from: anjaq on May 14, 2014, 03:04:57 AM
It sounds good if your voice settles higher now more easily, thats definitely a plus. I am not sure about the recording - it sounds fine to me throughout but I guess I am not the best person to judge such things.

What still confuses me is why one needs to train to raise pitch. Basically this is what my voice therapist is trying now already - we do lip trills a lot plus exercises with exxagerrated questions - the goal there is to go really up in pitch at the end of saying for example "what?" and by that get more comfortable using the upper range. I found I also will actually have a higher pitch overall if I do a lot of these. But my hope somehow is that with a VFS this would not be needed so much or be easier. Because I have a hard time to get up in pitch and stay there with training exercises a lot. My therapist claims if I do this really a lot and practice daily, that I would be able to raise my pitch (she is opposed to VFS, so I apologize if some of her doubts seep through me now ;) ).
So basically what training are you doing then? Lip trills only or do you also do some other exercises?

Greetings

Hi Anja,
In the last couple of months since I booked surgery I've been doing all my old voice therapy exercises again because I read that pre-op voice therapy, surgery, and the post-op voice therapy gives the best results. (This wasn't specific to Yeson, but voice surgery in general). As a result my voice actually has improved a bit so sometimes I wonder whether I could get there just by practice alone. In the end though I think the answer is no. I've been struggling with my voice for so many years that it's got to be more than a just a lack of skill (i.e., a physiological issue).

Quote from: Junebug on May 13, 2014, 09:32:06 PM
I have read that Dr. Kim ties off 1/2 to 1/3 depending on the individual, but does anyone know what would happen if a person got tied at 2/3? would the person sound like a chipmunk? lol.

Hi Junebug,
I wonder if anyone other than Jenny has had more than a 1/3 of the vocal fold tied off? Everyone seems to get the standard 1/3. Like Jenny I also had a tracheal shave to get rid of my massive adams apple so I worry that could make a difference to the result a bit.

re: training to raise pitch, I'm not an expert but I recall my early testing was to find fundamental frequency but also habitual pitch.  Habitual pitch is where we hold our voice through habit.  For me it was lower than my fundamental frequency, so I am guessing that for those who get this surgery need to also change their habitual pitch.  I imagine it sounds 'wrong' when the physical changes force a higher pitch, and if we didn't train ourselves to be comfortable with a higher pitched voice, we would continually drop back into our comfort zone or "habitual pitch".  I think that this surgery isn't a magic cure, it is a tool to help make your habitual pitch / speaking voice easier to contain within the normal female range. 

Training also helps learn the muscles necessary to keep the larynx high and so reduce resonance which is often the hardest thing to get rid of.  Anyone who has to talk to someone else in the bathroom knows how 'boomy' our voices can be, and raising the larynx to reduce resonance can fix that booming quality.

I think I will go back to speech training before I book surgery to get into the best shape vocally for a good result. 

My $.02

Quote from: Charlotte on May 14, 2014, 05:34:20 AM
Hi Anja,
In the last couple of months since I booked surgery I've been doing all my old voice therapy exercises again because I read that pre-op voice therapy, surgery, and the post-op voice therapy gives the best results. (This wasn't specific to Yeson, but voice surgery in general). As a result my voice actually has improved a bit so sometimes I wonder whether I could get there just by practice alone. In the end though I think the answer is no. I've been struggling with my voice for so many years that it's got to be more than a just a lack of skill (i.e., a physiological issue).

Yes, I think there is something to that. I am struggling for a long time too, but admittedly my voice training was not that extensive and doing something wrong for 10 years was of no use. But now I am trying more, still cannot get it really well even with training... So I am not sure it is really such a great possibility.

But what Duck says also makes sense - that a lot seems to be about habitual speaking frequency. This is hard to change. I keep falling back down from an otherwise rather o.k. speaking pitch by habit. I guess with surgery it is harder to fall down because your voice then breaks apart, so you have a reminder to not do that again.

Resonance is still a puzzle to me. I did some resonance training and it seemed to have worked but it also seems that by doing that I was harming my voice as now that we have corrected my voice issues in respect to the wrong use of my vocal folds my voice soounds boomy again. I am not sure it is male resonance so much as it is once more using my full vocal folds which makes the voice fuller and more resonant overall but that is supposedly ok. There are so many components to this. To eliminate resonance as much as possible was what I did for a while, but that sounds bad too and harms the voice in the long run. So resonance is needed, but it has to be the correct one... tricky :(

Ducks you are absolutely right about VFS not being a magical cure on its own- I have tried to stress this over and over!

Quote from: Charlotte on May 14, 2014, 05:34:20 AM
Hi Voodle,
I listened to the recording and it's absolutely female. For my 2 cents the second half is more an issue of resonance rather than pitch. To me it just sounds like a woman trying to do a serious voice maybe like a news presenter. So whoever misgendered you wasn't listening very closely IYSWIM.   I'm very glad it all worked out ok for you in the end! Out of interest how does the second half of your recording compare with your pre-surgery voice?

Thank you :) It has been getting better lately, my voice in the latter part of that clip is somewhat different from how I sounded pre-surgery, but it's more subtle, my voice was definitely deeper before with an average frequency of 120hz and an overall deeper resonance. My trained voice after surgery sounds a lot better than anything I could do prior to the surgery as well.
I was very concerned that the surgery didn't work for a long time because my voice sounded nothing like a lot of the other Yeson patients but I have had a camera stuck down my throat to check and it has healed correctly so it appears that my using my voice incorrectly was the problem there :(

Quote
Hi Junebug,
I wonder if anyone other than Jenny has had more than a 1/3 of the vocal fold tied off? Everyone seems to get the standard 1/3. Like Jenny I also had a tracheal shave to get rid of my massive adams apple so I worry that could make a difference to the result a bit.

I actually had half my vocal chords tied also, but I'm not getting anything done about my adams apple because it's quite small.

Jenny: in regards to the Clonazepam, I think they gave me 150 pills in total. I took them for about 2 months after the surgery (once I could start using my voice) then had to stop.

Quote from: voodle on May 14, 2014, 03:02:07 PM

I actually had half my vocal chords tied also, but I'm not getting anything done about my adams apple because it's quite small.

That's really interesting to know.  :)  Did Dr Kim say why he decided to suture half? Was it just you had a low average frequency or was there some other reason? (I seem to remember Jenny saying part of the reason Dr Kim decided to suture half in her case was because she had damage on one of her cords).

I really have no idea but it was after the voice examination and I'm guessing it depends on the size of the vocal chords. I did ask Dr Kim about it and he said it depends on the patient but I don't recall the specifics.

Quote from: voodle on May 14, 2014, 03:02:07 PM
my voice in the latter part of that clip is somewhat different from how I sounded pre-surgery, but it's more subtle, my voice was definitely deeper before with an average frequency of 120hz and an overall deeper resonance.

LOL - somewhat different? I mean the difference between a 120 Hz voice and anything in that clip there, even the last part ist quite noticeable I would say ;)
I guess one should not necessarily take a 240 Hz voice as a goal - sure it sounds femme-female but a 180 Hz or 200 Hz voice are great female range as well. I would not even want a 240 Hz voice, it would never fit me. For Jenny as I can see in the pictures and videos, it seems to fit and she started out a bit higher than 120 Hz as well. But we in the lower range of 110 or 120 Hz probably can be ok with a 170-180 Hz voice - it may not sound as femme but still female. I think with voice it is the same as with so many girly things - We would really like to be more on the femme side of female average if we could and then compare ourselves to in this case a 240 Hz voice, believeing that the change from 120 to 160, 170 or 180 Hz is subtle - but it is not really that - in a way it is a bit suble, jus tlike FFS can be sublte or the results in the face of a Hormone Therapy can be sublte but at the same time those seemingly small changes are what makes that difference between a male and female external perception.

Quote from: voodle on May 14, 2014, 05:31:37 PM
I really have no idea but it was after the voice examination and I'm guessing it depends on the size of the vocal chords. I did ask Dr Kim about it and he said it depends on the patient but I don't recall the specifics.

Given that Amy got less than a 1/3 suture as I understand it and had very short vocal chords, that seems to make sense. Plus probably the need for more pitch increase? In Dr Kims reply he said that he could not completely feminize my voice as I was starting at 110 Hz. I assume he would, if I still want to try, suggest possibly doing more than a 1/3, although I would assure him that I do not need a 220 Hz voice to feel ok, so maybe I would not need it - I think to overdo that, making the opening too small is bound to be harder to get used to in terms of breathing. I have now read two reports of women who felt that they had some issues with breathing in very fast post-OP, so I guess one can get used to that, but if this effect is more pronounced due to a larger suture, I can imagine it to be harder.

Hi Anja, all,

Quote from: anjaq on May 14, 2014, 05:36:39 PM
Given that Amy got less than a 1/3 suture as I understand it and had very short vocal chords, that seems to make sense.

Yes, I got slightly under 1/3, due to the length of my vocal cords and due to being around 150 Hz average in male mode before. However, I was able to reach down to 82 Hz before. So, Dr. Kim and I agreed to shoot for 220 Hz average afterwards, and 145 as the lower limit.

Quote from: anjaq on May 14, 2014, 05:36:39 PM
I think to overdo that, making the opening too small is bound to be harder to get used to in terms of breathing. I have now read two reports of women who felt that they had some issues with breathing in very fast post-OP, so I guess one can get used to that, but if this effect is more pronounced due to a larger suture, I can imagine it to be harder.

I have noticed no such effect postoperatively, not even under heavy physical exercise (45-minute run).

Regards,

Amy

Hi everybody,

it's postoperative day 24 and I've got news to report: up to now, I've literally used my voice only for seconds each day and it was very hard to get a sense of where it sat. So today, I conducted a little experiment: since I know my pre-op voice pretty well, I decided to produce a low note and put my larynx in the position that I would have used for an A2. Added breath, and out came: F3, a minor 6th higher. From there, I managed to gliss up an octave to F4 (feeling nowhere near any limit, though), and back down again, although (still) with miserable tone quality. If my lower limit is transposed in proportion, this would give me C3 as rock bottom, which is perfect for an alto. The whole test took under 10 seconds and was deliberately performed not to test any limits (it's far too early for that), but to verify that the core octave for feminine speaking is there.

I know, this is only a rough idea of where my voice is headed, but at least it can safely be said that the surgery did work. Which eases my mind a whole lot.

'Til next time, take care,

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 16, 2014, 10:37:51 AM
Hi everybody,

it's postoperative day 24 and I've got news to report: up to now, I've literally used my voice only for seconds each day and it was very hard to get a sense of where it sat. So today, I conducted a little experiment: since I know my pre-op voice pretty well, I decided to produce a low note and put my larynx in the position that I would have used for an A2. Added breath, and out came: F3, a minor 6th higher. From there, I managed to gliss up an octave to F4 (feeling nowhere near any limit, though), and back down again, although (still) with miserable tone quality. If my lower limit is transposed in proportion, this would give me C3 as rock bottom, which is perfect for an alto. The whole test took under 10 seconds and was deliberately performed not to test any limits (it's far too early for that), but to verify that the core octave for feminine speaking is there.

I know, this is only a rough idea of where my voice is headed, but at least it can safely be said that the surgery did work. Which eases my mind a whole lot.

'Til next time, take care,

Amy

Congratulations! It is always so reassuring to know that another person is experiencing great success as a result of their trip to Yason.

Yay Amy! So very pleased for you!  :)

Congrats amy!!!! :) i wish you more fast recovery!! And give us news!!! :)

Oh great Amy! Happy for you. Pretty neat that it really works that way that you actually do produce a higher tone with the same "setting" of the voice as before. This is what one is hoping for - meaning if you do the same thing as before surgery, everything just comes out a bit higher. Should make those higher pitches more easily available too. Great to hear.

Great to hear Amy! I hope your recovery will continue as good as it was.

Lara

Hi all,

2 more days to go until "general conversation" time. YAY!

This past month, I took it very easy on my voice and on most days, didn't speak at all. I notice it is getting easier and easier to make sounds. Although I personally think the timbre is pretty much unaffected by the surgery (I do notice the transposition, though!), my girlfriend says it's definitely feminized (without me making a conscious effort – my voice is still so feeble, I wouldn't even dare to twang it like I used to).

I contacted Jessie for some medication and voice maintenance questions and she assured me everything was normal and going according to plan. She also asked me to send in a "Rainbow Passage" each month for them to keep track of my recovery. So I'll be posting the same "Rainbow Passages" here, so you also can stay tuned how I'm doing vocally. When the time comes, I'll also try to sing a tune.

I'm so curious how things develop!

Greetings,

Amy

I'm very happy for you Amy! I also look forward to your future "Rainbow Passages." Being able to hear how well you've come through this will very much help me with my decision.

Ally :icon_flower:

I totally second that.

And best wishes for Amy.

I had my VFS 4 days ago with Dr. Kim and I'm now in a "shut up" state. My pre-op pitch without raising is 174.6 Hz and the raising pitch is 182.1 Hz (OK I have to acknowledge that I do not know how to produce the feminine sound like a lot of you guys do), so the raising one, although it's raised a bit, it's still very easy and with no larynx modification technique.

Dr. Kim told me, my natural resonance method is already feminine in some sense (more precisely, like a kid? or like, Britney Spear-ish?), just that my articulation and the way I speak sounds like a early puberty boy, so he'd against me on learning those techniques by speech therapist. He predicted that if I try to learn those techniques my average Fo will be about 310 Hz, which is insane... he wants me to learn how to produce clear and light voice though.

I asked Dr. Kim about the same question on falsetto last time I asked him, and it was as what I thought - Asian singing studies just don't differentiate head voice and falsetto, instead they call them both "false voice" and thus "falsetto", so in Korean's terminology, soprano sings in falsetto (I misunderstood last time) lol He said "you don't have falsetto post-op" is in speaking, still able to produce that "head voice" or "falsetto" in their terminology after operation  :laugh:


Added: mine was shorten only 1/4, as Dr. Kim doesn't want me to go in average 250 Hz when speaking...

Congratulations, Alexia, on your recent surgery. I wish you a safe and speedy recovery and lots of happiness with your new voice.

Me, I started talking today, and while my voice is still very "rusty" from surgery and a month of disuse, the effect on pitch is pronounced – I don't have to strain at all anymore. The few people that I talked to today gave me lots of compliments on my new voice, which is very good and reassuring to hear.

Assuming tone quality will improve and hoarseness go in the course of the coming month I can well imagine this is going to be just fine. Also, the pronounced hi-midrange peak I had in my old trained-feminine voice is totally gone, making it sound much more relaxed.

I'll keep you posted of the developments and will add a "Rainbow Passage" over the weekend.

Take care everybody,

Amy

Quote from: alexiakk on May 23, 2014, 05:52:50 AM
I asked Dr. Kim about the same question on falsetto last time I asked him, and it was as what I thought - Asian singing studies just don't differentiate head voice and falsetto, instead they call them both "false voice" and thus "falsetto", so in Korean's terminology, soprano sings in falsetto (I misunderstood last time) lol He said "you don't have falsetto post-op" is in speaking, still able to produce that "head voice" or "falsetto" in their terminology after operation  :laugh:


Added: mine was shorten only 1/4, as Dr. Kim doesn't want me to go in average 250 Hz when speaking...

Alexia, Very glad surgery went well!  :) I have to admit I'm now totally confused about falsetto, head voice, and middle register. Are they all the same thing or different things or do people muddle them up? Are people actually speaking in falsetto and do I have to speak in falsetto post-op. I can quite happily sing in falsetto but that's like 300Hz. Really confused!

Amy can't wait to hear you rainbow passage reading!  ;)

lexia, i would pay about usd7000 to get your pre op voice. Lol. Are you a rather tiny person that your voice is so naturally high? If your speaking voice will be in the 250-300 range, thats quite high. I guess you are a very feminine person for this voice to fit.

Amy, can you explain what that hi-mid range peak is? It sounds great anyways. Speaking more relaxed and with less tension is great. You probably also do not have to think about your voice anymor when talking?
The hoarseness seems to go away until the 2 month mark if i can judge that from the vids of the others.
Great to hear and looking forward to hear your new voice. Hugs , greetings,

Today, I had my first conversation with my Mom since going to Yeson and after about 10mins my voice was starting to get hoarse so I had to end the call. Bless her she was so happy to hear me after these last few weeks. Anyway after a short break my voice had recovered again. I'm still taking it easy at work for another week.
I'm not expecting much this early after surgery, but on the whole one month post-op its slightly higher than before. I had 165Hz before surgery, so I'm really looking forward to developments over the next few months.

Alexia - Great news that your surgery went well. It's incredible how many people from Susans who have gone to Yeson.

Saskia

Quote from: anjaq on May 23, 2014, 01:03:56 PM
lexia, i would pay about usd7000 to get your pre op voice. Lol. Are you a rather tiny person that your voice is so naturally high? If your speaking voice will be in the 250-300 range, thats quite high. I guess you are a very feminine person for this voice to fit.

Haha yeah Anja I'm a tiny person... shorter than average female height in Europe. I did feel like my voice was naturally high, but it is really loud :embarrassed: Anyways Dr. Kim showed me my vocal folds pre-op and post-op, and they look clean and smooth which indicates that I'm not bad at protecting my voice box ;D

Wish everyone good luck! I know there are a few people having surgery recently :)

Oh also I want to mention that it's better to not only avoid those spicy food & tea & cafe but also avoid anything that can stimulate the production mucus. It can greatly increase the easiness in breathing and the clearness of respiratory tract :)

Quote from: Charlotte on May 23, 2014, 12:35:36 PM
Alexia, Very glad surgery went well!  :) I have to admit I'm now totally confused about falsetto, head voice, and middle register. Are they all the same thing or different things or do people muddle them up? Are people actually speaking in falsetto and do I have to speak in falsetto post-op. I can quite happily sing in falsetto but that's like 300Hz. Really confused!

I did some research on this, and it seems like to Asian people they only recognize 2 different voices - true voice and false voice. We'll have no speaking falsetto post-op so it's always in chest voice  ;) I think to them falsetto and head voice sound similar so they put them in one category. But in fact "true" falsetto is quite rare to produce with short vocal cords; like my voice teacher told me that I don't know how to produce the "disconnected" falsetto but the "connected" head voice pre-op. Almost all voice types above mid-high tenor naturally uses head voice instead of falsetto.

Quote from: Junebug on May 13, 2014, 09:32:06 PM


Hello,

I have read that Dr. Kim ties off 1/2 to 1/3 depending on the individual, but does anyone know what would happen if a person got tied at 2/3? would the person sound like a chipmunk? lol.

June you have to consider that vocal folds reside in respiratory tract. Tying off 1/3 or 1/2 is based on the fact that it cannot damage your normal breathing function. Gases passes through the glottis while you inhale and exhale, if Dr. Kim ties up 2/3 of the entire vocal cords, you will not able to receive enough oxygen and thus will result in hypoventilation. It does not matter how it sounds.

Quote from: alexiakk on May 23, 2014, 06:21:57 PM
Haha yeah Anja I'm a tiny person... shorter than average female height in Europe. I did feel like my voice was naturally high, but it is really loud :embarrassed:

I would take the loudness as well ;) - I am always told I talk not loud enough ;) - so a 170-180Hz voice that is loud - I would swap against my low volume 110 (or 140 if shifted) Hz voice ;)

I wish you the best and that your voice will fit your overall personality and appearance well. This is after all themost important one. A 5'9 person with a 270 Hz voice would be very odd, but a 5'5 person with a 120 Hz voice would be as odd or worse

Quote from: alexiakk on May 23, 2014, 09:48:41 PM
June you have to consider that vocal folds reside in respiratory tract. Tying off 1/3 or 1/2 is based on the fact that it cannot damage your normal breathing function. Gases passes through the glottis while you inhale and exhale, if Dr. Kim ties up 2/3 of the entire vocal cords, you will not able to receive enough oxygen and thus will result in hypoventilation. It does not matter how it sounds.

o_O gosh I would not want that.  I do not know about the anatomy of the throat very much, but I am glad I learned something from you.

Hey everybody!  :)

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls!

Quote from: Roni on May 24, 2014, 04:13:23 PM
Hey everybody!  :)

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls!

Seriously, your voice is awesome and sounds really natural :D

I'd go for the transplant first, then VFS :D

-MegC

Quote from: Roni on May 24, 2014, 04:13:23 PM
Hey everybody!  :)

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls!

WOW THIS IS AMAZING!! Your voice is VERY beautiful already. I would suggest no VFS for you :P

It's just like asking a cis-female what they should do to improve their voice lol

Roni, there is no way you pass as male on the phone. No. Way.

Sounds to me like you've got it ALL down. No VFS for you is my vote :) Why bother?

Quote from: alexiakk on May 25, 2014, 02:47:05 AM
It's just like asking a cis-female what they should do to improve their voice lol

Haha, my thoughts exactly

Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV)

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

@Roni: I find your voice very appealing and feminine already, but I'm totally with you that it takes constant focus and effort to keep the voice there, which was my main reason to undergo VFS as well. So, if the effort problem doesn't prove unsurmountable, I'd do hair transplants first, then VFS. Just my 2¢, your mileage may vary.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

Quote from: MeganChristine on May 25, 2014, 01:40:26 AM
Seriously, your voice is awesome and sounds really natural :D

I'd go for the transplant first, then VFS :D

-MegC

Thank you! It was tough trying to maintain my voice at first. Thank god I work at a busy fast food place where I am able to practice speaking more naturally and comfortably!

Quote from: alexiakk on May 25, 2014, 02:47:05 AM

WOW THIS IS AMAZING!! Your voice is VERY beautiful already. I would suggest no VFS for you :P

It's just like asking a cis-female what they should do to improve their voice lol

Aww thanks haha! I appreciate that.  ;D

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 25, 2014, 02:47:26 AM
Roni, there is no way you pass as male on the phone. No. Way.

Sounds to me like you've got it ALL down. No VFS for you is my vote :) Why bother?

Totally freaked out that you had replied to my post!  ;D You are the entire reason I have wanted to go for VFS, ever since I stumbled upon your video on YouTube last year on a night when I was feeling pretty down and disappointed with my voice. I didn't even know about Susan's back then. Sorry it just feels kind of surreal getting a response from you haha!  :)

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 25, 2014, 03:54:16 AM
Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV)

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

@Roni: I find your voice very appealing and feminine already, but I'm totally with you that it takes constant focus and effort to keep the voice there, which was my main reason to undergo VFS as well. So, if the effort problem doesn't prove unsurmountable, I'd do hair transplants first, then VFS. Just my 2¢, your mileage may vary.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

Healing pretty well! All you girls getting the surgery is just making me more anxious about getting mine haha.  :) That is exactly how I feel Amy. Often times I don't have complete control over my voice like I did in my voice clip and it would be nice to just let loose and not have to worry about maintaining my pitch.

Quote from: Saskia on May 23, 2014, 02:01:01 PM
Today, I had my first conversation with my Mom since going to Yeson and after about 10mins my voice was starting to get hoarse so I had to end the call. Bless her she was so happy to hear me after these last few weeks. Anyway after a short break my voice had recovered again. I'm still taking it easy at work for another week.
I'm not expecting much this early after surgery, but on the whole one month post-op its slightly higher than before. I had 165Hz before surgery, so I'm really looking forward to developments over the next few months.

Alexia - Great news that your surgery went well. It's incredible how many people from Susans who have gone to Yeson.

Saskia

Saskia, your mother sounds really lovely! I'm actually welling up a bit  :) :)

Quote from: Roni on May 24, 2014, 04:13:23 PM
Hey everybody!  :)

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls!

Another vote for hair transplants first.  ;) Have you decided if you'll go for FUT or FUE yet?

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 25, 2014, 03:54:16 AM
Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV)

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

Amy, your voice is sounding really good for only 32 days post-op. Comparing your pre- and post-op voices I can tell what you mean by the reduction of the mid-high end it just sounds so much more relaxed.  I'd never really thought about it, but listening to recordings of my 'phone voice' I can hear it too. Maybe it's a common trait of all feminized trans voices. It's almost as if you can hear the effort required to raise the pitch that much.

Quote from: alexiakk on May 23, 2014, 06:33:01 PM
I did some research on this, and it seems like to Asian people they only recognize 2 different voices - true voice and false voice. We'll have no speaking falsetto post-op so it's always in chest voice  ;) I think to them falsetto and head voice sound similar so they put them in one category. But in fact "true" falsetto is quite rare to produce with short vocal cords; like my voice teacher told me that I don't know how to produce the "disconnected" falsetto but the "connected" head voice pre-op. Almost all voice types above mid-high tenor naturally uses head voice instead of falsetto.

Alexia, thank for explaining this! I think I understand now: chest and head voice are kind of the same thing with chest the low end of the range and head the high end of the range - both called 'true voice' in Asia. Falsetto, on the other hand, is a completely different method of voice production - called false voice in Asia. Does that make sense? :)

Quote from: AmyBerlin on May 25, 2014, 03:54:16 AM
Hi all,

it's time for an update: here's my voice, just barely being able to speak again, on day 32 postoperative:

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV)

Mean pitch is still as low as 172 Hz, but I'm intentionally keeping my voice totally relaxed in order not to damage anything, so this is approximately as low as I can comfortably go. There's surely still a lot of swelling on the vocal cords – as you can hear in the voice sometimes cutting out – which also kind of depresses pitch, but will go away on its own in the coming months. So I'm not despairing at all. It'll be fine.

Bottom line: still a lot of healing to do, but it's evident that, once everything is healed, it's definitely going to be a huge change for the better.

@Roni: I find your voice very appealing and feminine already, but I'm totally with you that it takes constant focus and effort to keep the voice there, which was my main reason to undergo VFS as well. So, if the effort problem doesn't prove unsurmountable, I'd do hair transplants first, then VFS. Just my 2¢, your mileage may vary.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

Hey there Amy,

First of all, congratulation on your VFS :D Sounds like you're healing well :D 32 days and speaking already :D YAY! Really looking forward to hear the future progression :) Have you started the exercises yet?

-MegC

Quote from: Charlotte on May 25, 2014, 06:57:52 AM
Another vote for hair transplants first.  ;) Have you decided if you'll go for FUT or FUE yet?

Hi Charlotte.  :)

Haven't really extensively looked into the differences between FUT and FUE. But as I understand it:

FUE
*More expensive
*Less visible scarring
*Hair results in regard to growth, strength, longevity, etc. slightly less better than that of FUT

FUT
*Less expensive
*More visible strip-like scarring
*Better results than FUE

Am I missing anything here? Right now I'm mainly concerned over the excellency of the results and would probably go for FUT considering it is cheaper, and the scarring does not bother me as I will be growing my hair out to cover the scar anyway. If someone could make a case for FUE, that would be great.  :)

Amy, I think I am pretty impressed. Of course it will take a while longer to hear what will be your final voice, as it is now it still is breaking at times, probably because you are hitting the low end of your register, and it sounds rather breathy and not very high in volume, but its just a month post op, so for that time it seems to be great already, considering this is your relaxed low end, no effort voice. I am happy for you if this goes on and heals as well as with the others, it will be great. I will look forward on what the ENTs here in Germany will say once you have healed and are going to your examination there. I bet they will be impressed about Dr Kim ;) .

Quote from: Roni on May 24, 2014, 04:13:23 PM
Hey everybody!  :)

I have a question for those who have done the surgery or are knowledgable about it.

First off, this is how I currently sound in my female register: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QbbKdhnvuO

Ignore the question I brought up in the voice clip. It is a clip from a few weeks back and I have since decided that I am definitely getting the surgery. Reason being I would love to sound authentic in my voice without feeling like I'm forcefully increasing my pitch, and also to abolish any chances of accidentally reverting back to my male register (which happens a lot when I'm drunk with friends, etc.).

My question is, considering I have a naturally high-sounding pre-op voice, my post-op voice should still see an increase in frequency, right? As in there shouldn't be a "ceiling" for me considering I was born male and have the vocal folds of a male? I'm scared the surgery will somehow ruin my ability to speak in the register I have already attained, and that my post-op voice will end up lower than my pre-op. Is that possible? Do people with high pitched pre-op voices generally end up with higher pitched post-op voices?

I know the surgery isn't a magic cure, as people have mentioned here, and that one would still need to practice her voice. I feel as though I've always talked similar to females growing up, and have been ma'amed on the phone even before I realized I was trans. I'm just kind of hoping the surgery will make me sound genuinely female.

Second: I'm very self-conscious about my laugh. Will the surgery feminize it?

Thanks girls

Seriously you sound very feminine, and very natural. I'd give everything I have to have a voice just half as good as yours. You don't need VFS. I'd go for the hair issue first.

Best Wishes!

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Charlotte on May 25, 2014, 07:10:15 AM
Alexia, thank for explaining this! I think I understand now: chest and head voice are kind of the same thing with chest the low end of the range and head the high end of the range - both called 'true voice' in Asia. Falsetto, on the other hand, is a completely different method of voice production - called false voice in Asia. Does that make sense? :)

They are all true in western studies :)

But I think Asian people differentiate true/false voice mainly based on timbre instead of vibration pattern. For example, operatic female singers usually use their head voice on singing high notes, in US we call head voice "full voice", but in Asia they consider all operatic female voices as "false voice". In fact all of the notes are mixed, there's no such thing as "pure chest voice" or "pure head voice", you can sound very chesty and strained (and they will perceive it as true voice), or very heady (and they will perceive it as false voice) by modifying proportion of chest voice/head voice in your mixed.

The boarder line of their standard is actually very vague - for example, my Filipino friends cannot categorize the voice Ariana Grande or Mariah Carey uses when singing - some claims that they use true voice and some claims that they use false voice (to Yeson I think they'll say it's false), they even think these two are good at switching between true/false voice (In fact they never change methods, it's just the component they put).

Falsetto is an entirely different pattern in western study. It's definition is also very vague in Asia - some say that it's the vibration of only the ligament part of vocal cords and other say that it's the incomplete closure of vocal cords, some people even say that it's the vibration of vestibular (ventricular) folds.

So generally:
Chesty & stained = true voice

Heady & ease = false voice

Falsetto = false voice

They distinguish by timbre.

Quote from: Roni on May 25, 2014, 03:57:11 PM
Hi Charlotte.  :)

Haven't really extensively looked into the differences between FUT and FUE. But as I understand it:

FUE
*More expensive
*Less visible scarring
*Hair results in regard to growth, strength, longevity, etc. slightly less better than that of FUT

FUT
*Less expensive
*More visible strip-like scarring
*Better results than FUE

Am I missing anything here? Right now I'm mainly concerned over the excellency of the results and would probably go for FUT considering it is cheaper, and the scarring does not bother me as I will be growing my hair out to cover the scar anyway. If someone could make a case for FUE, that would be great.  :)

I think with FUE you get a much softer hairline because the surgeon can cherry pick the finest hairs (at least that what they say). They yeild is about the same as FUT with a good surgeon. Also, for me anyway, I don't really want yet another scar on my body with all the numbness that comes with a massive scar.

Am I the only person who's able to talk with not much labor (with just a bit hoarse) 1-2 week post-op?

I felt really guilty these 3 days as I am having my FFS... so I MUST TALK. I hope things won't be messed up because of these 3 days talking and I will return to the "shut-up" mode again.

I found something interesting though - my F0 in English raises way more than my F0 in Chinese, and I really don't know the reason. Another thing makes me kinda frustrated is that the lowest note I was able to produce pre-op is A2 (in good time G2), but days ago I was still able to produce an A2 post-op 10 days... They told me that the low notes will diminish gradually and I should stop producing them anymore until they are totally gone.

Amy, I thought your current lowest is C3 - did you have any experiences on low notes during the first month?

Hi Alexia,

Quote from: alexiakk on May 31, 2014, 11:39:32 PM
Amy, I thought your current lowest is C3 - did you have any experiences on low notes during the first month?

In the first month, on the few occasions when I said anything, my voice would sometimes be as low as Bb2 (E2 was the preop lower limit). Current lowest note is Db3.

Hope this helps,

Amy

Hi all,

another month has passed, so it's UPDATE TIME! So here are the new and old voice samples, all in one place:

	German (Der Nordwind und die Sonne)	English (Rainbow Passage)
Feminine/elevated (everyday speaking) voice preop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0fbDP36ry7K (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0fbDP36ry7K)	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hN6hw8TOxK (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0hN6hw8TOxK)
Masculine (original) voice preop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JPQiX70wiD (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0JPQiX70wiD)	http://vocaroo.com/i/s0X8tQgYcmcw (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0X8tQgYcmcw)
1 month postop		http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1gdFO9JywwV)
2 months postop	http://vocaroo.com/i/s1j7Weqs0JsD (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1j7Weqs0JsD)	http://vocaroo.com/i/s1teNwvony7g (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1teNwvony7g)

You can find an audio progress report on my voice development here: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Dm4JPn9vsu (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0Dm4JPn9vsu). Overall, I'm very happy with the way things are going.

Love,

Amy

Thanks Amy. Yes it is pretty great! Congrats.
Actually I think that attempt to make a male voice was actually getting into an androgynous range, but it was not really male sounding. So your best effort to come out as male sounds not really male :) - Thats neat. But I guess it is forced anyways, so I doubt that you could slip into it by accident.
What I noticed is that your readings are using a bit less inflection and prosody than pre op. But thats to be expected 2 month post op considereing you are just starting to use the full range again. What I noticed was that in some sentences in the spoken report, you seem to want to go lower for some single words, but it will not work anymore. Similar to Meghan. your voice becomes breathy and has less volume there, so I guess you are getting into that low end range that is not really useable anymore. So possibly you will also end up with a bit higher voice than you now use as an average voice to get that pitch range available so you can also go a bit lower when speaking. Comparing both recordings of the readings pre (everyday) and post op, the pitch seems to be the same, but you can hear that in the post op recording you are using a bit of a different resonance. It doe snot sound male but it makes the voice sound a bit different. But again - considering that this is a no-effort voice, just think about what would have come out if you would do the same pre-VFS. probably it would be that pre(male) recordings ;)
Actually ... does it feel from the way you use the voice and muscles and control over the voice box similar to what you did in the pre (male) recordings now but it comes out as you posted it?

Dear Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
What I noticed is that your readings are using a bit less inflection and prosody than pre op.

Quite intentionally so. I've just started doing voice exercises today and sang a simple song for the first time since surgery, but the flexibility and agility of my voice are nowhere near where they were pre-op, yet. But I'm confident my abilities will return.

Quote from: anjaq on June 21, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
What I noticed was that in some sentences in the spoken report, you seem to want to go lower for some single words, but it will not work anymore. Similar to Meghan. your voice becomes breathy and has less volume there, so I guess you are getting into that low end range that is not really useable anymore.

Yes, it's weird, the mind plays all sorts of tricks on you while getting used to the new voice... And yes, if I had spoken with the muscles used the same way pre-op it would have sounded SO male. In the recording I spoke without even raising the larynx, literally with no effort at all. Over the next weeks, I'll gradually start shaping the voice more to make it sound a bit prettier.

Amy

Hi Amy :)

Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 22, 2014, 12:41:16 PM
Quite intentionally so. I've just started doing voice exercises today and sang a simple song for the first time since surgery, but the flexibility and agility of my voice are nowhere near where they were pre-op, yet. But I'm confident my abilities will return.

Yes, I was thinking that you would do so. It is just 2 Months now, so still time for just slowly starting again to use your voice fully. So now you will have to learn to play a new instrument - your own modified voice :) ;)

QuoteYes, it's weird, the mind plays all sorts of tricks on you while getting used to the new voice... And yes, if I had spoken with the muscles used the same way pre-op it would have sounded SO male. In the recording I spoke without even raising the larynx, literally with no effort at all. Over the next weeks, I'll gradually start shaping the voice more to make it sound a bit prettier.

I think I can hear that you did not raise the larynx - but that is still amazing to have a really no-effort at all - voice and it still sounds like that in the recordings. So this would be in the future the point where you would drop down to if you really are totally relaxed or sick or ... - and that is great as it still doe snot sound male :) - and as you said, it is a lot easier now to apply resonance changes, so it should be easy in the near future to get a really beautiful voice with just a little bit of effort and that is really great. It basically is all that was to be exprected for a good outcome of this surgery, right?

By the way on a totally different note - did Dr Kim say anything about loud screaming or calling out loudly post-op? Is it something that should be avaoided forever or is it at some point safe to do? (e.g. calling for help in a  really dangerous situation)

Again congrats on your success :)
Bye for now. CU.

Hi Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on June 22, 2014, 06:29:59 PM
By the way on a totally different note - did Dr Kim say anything about loud screaming or calling out loudly post-op? Is it something that should be avaoided forever or is it at some point safe to do? (e.g. calling for help in a  really dangerous situation)

He cautioned against singing and loud voice use up to 2 months after the surgery. I still avoid it as much as possible, especially since it still causes fatigue quite quickly. However, yesterday somebody dropped my piano keyboard lid (I've got an old-fashioned Blüthner drawing-room grand, so it's quite a noise)  and I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal. Initially, I was afraid that I might have messed something up – not so, the voice is still the same. However, I'm going to try to limit loud voice use at least until the half-year mark.

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 24, 2014, 02:51:42 AM
I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal.

That made me LOL. :) - Neat.
My questionw as more about the long term effect though. e.g. after a year - is it a problem then to really scream out in panic loudly or to make any sound at the most loudness possible? Did he say anything on that or is there really only a restrictin on that for the first months and after wards you can use the voice fully in all aspects? I am worried sind of course when doing loud noises, the strain on the first suture next to the opening must be quite high.

Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 24, 2014, 02:51:42 AM
I shrieked at a pitch I didn't know I had at my disposal

Sounds like your new vocal folds are acclimating :)

Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

Quote from: Jennygirl on June 24, 2014, 03:51:27 AM
Sounds like your new vocal folds are acclimating :)

Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

Totally sounds great! I would really love to involuntarily shriek and laugh like that - though I must say I can shriek and giggle at a high pitch right now as well if I am in the right mood. But this totally sounds great. You all are quite lucky to have your new voices. I am happy for you.

Dear Jenny,

Quote from: Jennygirl on June 24, 2014, 03:51:27 AM
Perhaps you might discover a new laugh register sometime soon as well. I remember that as being one of ~ if not the most ~ exciting moment.

And as far as the shriek, if your result is like mine you will notice you can much more easily scream higher in a chest voice. Maybe this is what you felt yesterday?

Yes, the laugh has definitely changed, although before surgery, I used a "head-voice laugh" that was perceived as feminine; some people even commented on it and said they found it cute. Well, it was definitely characteristic. My new laugh is much more like a regular girl laugh.

The shriek though was definitely head voice, since I didn't strain at all. I have made no attempt yet to belt in chest voice in order to give my vocal folds time to heal. What I've been doing to get back into singing is to sing along with Ella, Sarah Vaughan, Dee Dee Bridgewater and Diana Krall CDs. Their singing style is very relaxed in that it doesn't require lots of physical exertion, but is full of rapid runs and arpeggios that help develop flexibility and range. Tomorrow morning I have my first post-surgical appointment with my voice teacher. We'll see what she says.

Best wishes to all,

Amy

Oh yes I guess I also do a head voice laughter at times - but sometimes I don't - depends on my mood , I guess. But it would be interesting to have a womanly laugh without head voice :) - You two are luring me really into getting another contact with Dr Kim. He should not reject me again now that I managed to fix my hourglass glottis issue ;) - but if I do it will be next fall only :( - there is no timeslot before where I could be away for such a long time. Ah well.
I would be really interested in what your voice teacher (is it a voice therapist or phoniater or a singing teracher?) has to say. They usually are so dead against it... it would be cool to get them convinced - it would really speak for the procedure. :)

Hello Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on June 24, 2014, 08:28:57 AM
I would be really interested in what your voice teacher (is it a voice therapist or phoniater or a singing teracher?) has to say. They usually are so dead against it... it would be cool to get them convinced - it would really speak for the procedure. :)

My voice teacher is a singing teacher who has had both classical training and experience singing jazz and related styles. We also work together as a piano-and-voice duo. One time on tour we had adjacent hotel rooms and she heard me doing voice warmups in the morning in order to be able to do my trained voice. Then she understood and supported my decision to go to Korea and have it done.

Amy

Ah ok - so she knows the origin of your voice issues? You do regular warmups daily in the morning? I am trying to do that now, but often forget it :(
But it would be interesting to see what she has to comment as a voice expert :) I bet she will be rather pleasently suprised given the bad reputation voice surgery has in this country

Hi Anja,

Lots of questions in a short posting... :-)

Quote from: anjaq on June 24, 2014, 01:53:03 PM
Ah ok - so she knows the origin of your voice issues? You do regular warmups daily in the morning? I am trying to do that now, but often forget it :(
But it would be interesting to see what she has to comment as a voice expert :) I bet she will be rather pleasently suprised given the bad reputation voice surgery has in this country

I came out to her like a year and a half ago, so she knows the reason why. And yes, I did regular warmups and am now getting into the habit of doing them again, but this time the Yeson exercises. And my teacher heard me talk over the past weeks and is already very positively impressed by the Yeson surgery.

Amy

Hello Amy,
I was going to say what Jenny and Anja said but they beat me to it. What I did notice was at the end of your interview you have a lovely natural laugh. Also at the points in the interview where you hesitate you don't have any frys (or similar) in them; something I used to do.
I think the rainbow passage is really useful for standardization but it doesn't give the whole picture in the way an interview does.

I'll be very interested to hear if you augment the Yeson exercises with any of your own.

Charlotte

I'm so impressed with Amy's recovery that I'm actually tempted to go to Yeson myself. Anyone from the UK, post transition, wanna share a ride to Korea?  :laugh: I'm not certain going by oneself would be wise.

Sorry, only from Germany and it will probably be next year, not that soon. But two people without voice - thats not helping ;)

Oh, that's a pity. Having someone that can speak, yes that would be most helpful. How about a mobile text to speech app? My mum, although she accompanied me for srs in Canada, is not in the least interested in the idea of South Korea, for some reason..

I'm just going to have to have mine done here in the state of Florida where I live where it's covered by my insurance. Finances just aren't going to permit me to go to Seoul and have it done by Dr. Kim as I'd hoped. However, my voice is so horrible anything would be better than the voice I have now so, I haven't much to lose by taking my chances.

Ally :icon_flower:

Well - if you get insurance coverage, thats tempting of course. I hope they have some decent surgeons there then. I know with the ones here locally who do it on insurance, one can be lucky if one is really careful and uses the Dr Kim instructions and not the local ones. And even if many of the results sound breathy or a bit hoarse, almost all of them sound female and most people report they dont get misgendered on the phone anymore, so I guess it works, even if the voice is not great afterwards, it is at least female sounding and thats what was most important for all of them.

I haven't been misgendered on the phone since around 1996. I don't know why, but I love the phone. BUT not all phones are alike. I hate phones that don't have sidetone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidetone). Without sidetone, I don't get proper feedback and thus I do not feel like I'm tuning my voice to the correct pitch. With sidetone, I know how I sound to the listener and can make corrections.

At the end of the day, literally, or when I'm feeling tired or down, or speaking my first utterance of the day without having warmed up, maintaining my ideal pitch becomes tiresome. My voice will start to sound heavier and less smooth. It sounds like Yeson can help with that. I'd pay for that.

Quote from: anjaq on June 26, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
Well - if you get insurance coverage, thats tempting of course. I hope they have some decent surgeons there then. I know with the ones here locally who do it on insurance, one can be lucky if one is really careful and uses the Dr Kim instructions and not the local ones. And even if many of the results sound breathy or a bit hoarse, almost all of them sound female and most people report they dont get misgendered on the phone anymore, so I guess it works, even if the voice is not great afterwards, it is at least female sounding and thats what was most important for all of them.

I really do very much appreciate your concern and suggestions. If you heard what I have now for a voice, you'd understand my reasoning. Yes, I hope I can find a surgeon that uses Dr. Kim's method. But to me, my voice is a bit scratchy now. And, even a scratchy female voice will be better than what I have now. As I said, the way I see it, I've nothing to lose.

Ally :icon_flower:

Sure. i know some people who had similar reasoning - nothing to loose and no real viable alternative. they are happy as well - scratchy female voices are still female ;) - but please stay away from CTA surgeons if possible. The voices they create do always sound stressed and the effect goes away with time, which would mean you would end up not gaining much in the long run. Imagine a guitar string that you tighten to get a pitcher note and then let it sit for some years without further tightening - it will eventually get lower again. Its the same principle. And if you find a surgeon and go for it, make sure you follow the stricter procedures post op that Dr Kim suggests even if the local surgeons do not deem it necessary and would allow oyu to speak after a week or two.

Quote from: anjaq on June 28, 2014, 06:34:52 AM
but please stay away from CTA surgeons if possible

Seconded. I've seen quite a few sites still heralding cricothyroid approximation (CTA) as a very viable way to feminize one's voice. But, it couldn't be farther from the truth. That is the exact same operation that earned voice surgeries a bad name... And why so many voice therapists have negative preconceived notions about any voice surgery.

Be very very careful Allyda. Especially with voice, don't just trust a surgeon's word. It is all about the before/after samples that they should be able to provide. And, I don't care how good the samples are, I would NEVER trust CTA.

If you have a scratchy voice, it could be for a number of reasons. A few I can think of include essential voice tremor, vocal polyp/nodule, vocal fold asymmetry, or maybe vocal fold paralysis. Most of these things are treatable with surgery. The benefit of having VFS is that the surgeon will have the opportunity to improve that problem simultaneously :)

The NHS were offering CTA to me for free back in 1996. I declined when they finally set the surgery date. I had met with a patient of this treatment and couldn't get over how falsetto and Mickey Mouse they sounded. And the long prominent scar that's left at the incision site is also another reason I was put off. No way Jose.

As has been said before, these surgeries do not make you sound female. Garbage In Garbage Out. How female you sound is proportional to amount of effort you put into voice therapy in developing that. Ally, I presume you've tried voice therapy?

CTA seems to me to combine the downsides of Dr Thoman and Dr kims approach - it mainly just increases pitch, just like Dr Kims work, so you need voice training to get a nice sounding voice anyways - and it leaves a scar like Dr Thomas aproach does. Plus as a "bonus" it makes your voice sound strained. If you are in the US, Ally, can you convince your insurance to pay for the Dr Thomas Femlar surgery? It is probably one of the best approaches there is in the US.

About CTA - consider this - wht it does is basically mimicking your own efforts to reach a higher voice. It does what your body would do if you try to speak at a high pitch and this is what it sounds like as well. Glottoplasty actually shortens the active vocal folds and thus makes a different voice. That is why often CTA creates "falsetto" voices...

I thank you all, Anjaq, Jennygirl, and Nicolette for your recommendations and suggestions. Yes, I have tried voice therapy. I can't even get close without going into falsetto and sounding like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz. I can do a killer: "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too," lol!

So my choices are, Sound like the wicked witch, forget speaking altogether , learn sign and become mute, or give a US surgeon a try. I can't put into words how awful I feel after being out all day being treated like just a normal woman, then coming home and having to answer the phone and getting Sirred. I even corrected a guy just yesterday 4 times and he still said "goodbye sir". I wanted to crawl into a hole and die. I actually dread hearing my phone ring.

Out in public people seem to look past my voice because I never get sirred. I haven't been sirred out in public in over 4 years. And it has to be my presentation because I sure don't look anywhere near as good as most girls on here. Not in the least.

In any case, I see my Endo again on the 3rd of July, Thursday next week, and I'm hoping he can recommend somebody. I know I can have my SRS done at Shans and they have a somewhat good reputation here in Florida. But no one up there does the voice surgery. I haven't tried Tampa/St. Pete area yet nor Orlando. Each is a two hour drive but it will be worth it. If I strike out there I'll have to try down south. There's a large LGBT community in Lake Worth which is close to Miami.

Though my insurance is Federal I'm not sure if they would cover an out of state surgery unless it's an emergency. Maybe with my Endo's help they may cover Dr Thomas but Idk. I can only try and hope for the best.

Again I thank you for your suggestions and recommendations.

The Wicked Witch of the West, Ally :icon_flower:

The procedure is relatively common and is called "anterior web formation" or something like that. Most experienced otolaryngologists should know how to do it... However in the U.S. they all use lasers to help fuse the vocal cords (Dr. Kim uses a microscopic scalpel). That is the only thing that creates a difference between methodology.

Dr. Kim does seem to have better results (maybe because he's not using lasers), but really that seems to be the only difference.

There is a place in new york that has a lot of info posted about their laser method and they boast decent results:
http://professionalvoice.org/feminization.aspx

Thanks Jennygirl for the link.I'll  go have a look. I just hope I can get my insurance to pay for an out of state surgeon.

So how've you been? Doing OK I hope?

Ally :icon_flower:

Doing great, thanks! Took some time off of work and just enjoying the chill life at the moment- doing some stuff around the house and that's about it :)

Glad to hear everything's going well for you. Me, I've had a few financial difficulties and myself and my SO of 4 and a half years broke up -for good this time. Sadly I found out she only loved me for what I can do for her and how much $$ I can give her. So 4 + years wasted down the drain. Oh well. I'll eventually get over it and move on.  It just takes time.

Ally :icon_flower:

Ah yeah I've been there. Try not to look at it as time down the drain though.. I like to think of them as learning experiences, or a chance to do it better next time!

Yea, your right of course. I'm pretty much past the hurt and regret stage and look forward to being alone for a while while I complete the major parts of my transformation ie: VFS, SRS, then FFS if needed. I have a friend I can trust who's only 5 hours away who can come down and stay with me during post op recovery for VFS and my SRS. It does help having a few trusted friends. She can also take care of my 4 cats while I'm in the hospital so that takes a big worry away. I can't really be intimate with anyone like in a normal relationship anyway until I do have SRS, so it's better to just wait. I've been celibate for 25 years now so what's another one or two, lol!

Ally :icon_flower:

I guess you could try to argue that Dr Thomas technique is unique in the US and actually globally, so there is no way you could get a comparable surgery in your state?
But if you can find someone who does this webbing/glottoplasty, its a good technique and much less invcasive, although it will not totally change your resonance.

I personally believe that Dr kim has several advantages - I am not sure if the microscalpels really make a difference, or if it is the permanent threads he uses instead of the dissolvable ones that others use, or if it is his "tapering" of the sutures that Amy described, or if it simply is skill and experience. I guess as always it is all of the above ;) - plus his rather strict rules about healing. So it should not be impossible for the others to reach good result as well. Be sure to check if that surgeon has done the procedure often enough to be confident.

Hi all,

I've got good news: doing vocal warmups, in an attempt to hit an F5, my voice accidentally slipped into flageolet accidentally and I ended up far higher than that. So this part of my voice is back as well, but really uncontrolled, which is good news. Learning to navigate this new territory will be exciting!

Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on July 30, 2014, 02:21:32 AM
Hi all,

I've got good news: doing vocal warmups, in an attempt to hit an F5, my voice accidentally slipped into flageolet accidentally and I ended up far higher than that. So this part of my voice is back as well, but really uncontrolled, which is good news. Learning to navigate this new territory will be exciting!

Amy

I'm very happy for you Amy. and am so glad to hear your voice surgery worked out well. Will I ever get mine I dunno. Maybe when I get moved back home to Cali I can find a surgeon. Hearing about your progress gives me hope that someday I'll have a feminine voice.

Allie :icon_flower:

Hi all,

I'm sorry I haven't been in contact much over the last months, because I found myself having to find a new apartment and move. The first part is accomplished, the next will follow in October. But I feel like I really owe all of you an update on how my voice developed – and develop it did, in a good way. Here's the update:

https://soundcloud.com/pianogal1/recovery-4-12-mo-postoperative

Take care, best regards,

Amy

Hi girls,

@Amy, I'm very happy for you hun. Your voice sounds very good. You have a soft sultry tone I wish I had. Baby steps for me tho.

For once I actually get to share some good news! I finally had a breakthrough after a lil over 5 years of trying, and I found my feminine voice!. This happened around a month ago, but I wanted to wait a little to see if I was/am able to hold it and I'm very happy to say I am! That's right, this girl is finally no longer getting sirr'ed on the phone!. I can't believe how easy it is for me too. I had a lot of phone calls today and have been using it all day with no trouble. In the beginning I could only use it for short periods, but now I can actually speak freely with people instead of always nodding for yes or no, etc. So maybe I won't need surgery?

For now tho, I'm just happy I can sound feminine, I don't have to hold my tongue so much in public anymore and most of all, no more Sirr's on the phone!

I'm very happy for all of you girls who have found your voice. I now know what a wonderful feeling it is.

Ally :icon_flower:

Thats great Ally, How did you find your voice? :)

Quote from: anjaq on September 08, 2014, 04:24:27 PM
Thats great Ally, How did you find your voice? :)

Sorry I forgot to mention that, lol! I've just been a little excited over this after five years of failure to finally have success. Well, it's strange. Singing actually is what did it for me. Singing and my hrt. Because I hear myself every day I hadn't noticed my voice had raised in pitch. Though rarely, from my research it can happen in some cases. It didn't raise a whole lot, but it did raise just enough to get me past the scar tissue from my 91 accident that had been holding me back. I didn't even notice this until around a month ago I decided it was time to re-record my voice mail greeting. I can't put into words how surprised I was when I compared my old pre-hrt recording to the new one. The difference was like night and day. So, after this revelation I started singing along with a few songs, and recording myself as I did so. It was Katy Perry's " I kissed A Girl," that gave me my breakthrough. ^-^

Though I sound nothing like her mind you, I was hitting her notes. So I began just singing every time I was alone, and when I had the right pitch and resonance I started speaking within that range. Soon I was able to speak longer, and longer, and over the last two weeks I've been using my new voice exclusively while out and about, and especially while on the phone. It was again time to re-record my voicemail greeting. When I played the new greeting back to myself my jaw dropped. I actually now had a cheerful feminine sounding greeting saying: "Hello, this is Ally, You know what to do after the beep as I'm away from my phone, etc.........................", and so forth. ;)

So there you have it. After 5 years of voice therapists and voice therapy, and voice tutorial videos none of which worked, I have Singing to thank for helping me find my feminine voice. Well, Singing and my hrt that is. I no longer get sirr'd on the phone, and I now speak in my new voice exclusively even when talking to my cats at home. The only drawback? I can no longer sound like I used to pre hrt. But hey, why would I want to?, lol! :D

Ally :icon_flower:

Thats really neat. Yay for that. maybe you want to copy your voice mail message to the forum to show it. But probably not in this thread, not to clog it ;)

Quote from: AmyBerlin on September 08, 2014, 08:41:34 AM
Hi all,

I'm sorry I haven't been in contact much over the last months, because I found myself having to find a new apartment and move. The first part is accomplished, the next will follow in October. But I feel like I really owe all of you an update on how my voice developed – and develop it did, in a good way. Here's the update:

https://soundcloud.com/pianogal1/recovery-4-12-mo-postoperative

Take care, best regards,

Amy

Thank you thank you THANK YOU for giving us a singing sample! Your musical references to pitch were very easy to understand as well. This was the last little part of Yeson's VFS that I still was slightly in doubt over / hadn't heard enough examples. Your voice sounds natural and unstrained in pitch while singing - I finally feel totally good about scheduling an appointment :) :)

Yes :) It really seems to be good even in singing. Most people would laugh at me if I tell them this - voice surgery and singing - it still has such a horrible reputation. Almost all the examples here are proof that it is not so though, even the ones not from Yeson seem to be good as far as this can be said after just weeks.

It seems that VFS is quite a project - it takes money, some time for the travel in the case of Yesons, a lot of time of not speaking, then lots of time with a rather weak and strained voice, and then several months of daily voice exercises and possibly -for those who are not as good in the DIY voice recovery- some voice therapy to find the abilities of the new voice and settle into it. It seems that in most cases this is totally worth it though. The effort seems to be not less than doing extensive voice therapy though, but I would say the outcome probably is different, especially in terms of being relaxed about the voice? I am not sure that this degree of being relaxed and not-thinking can reall be reached with voice therapy alone, although some claim for them its become so second nature that they dont waste a thought on it.