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Okay, this has come up about zillion times. And it's time to address it. I'm mostly talking about the passing threads in the mtf section. Because this is where the complaints are coming from. And also because there's a difference. Most ftms will pass given enough time on T, but the same is not as true the other direction. Also, the stakes are higher for trans women. Not that trans guys never face violence, but there's more risk for trans women. This doesn't mean the ftm passing threads won't come up for debate too, but for now, please respond for the mtf threads.

Tell me how useful these threads are and whether you think they do more harm than good. Or are just largely not a good idea. The poll is anonymous, so please be honest. You can also post your thoughts here as well if you feel comfortable.

Edit:
Just to be clear - I don't read these threads unless there's a complaint. And don't think I'd be that good a judge of passing anyway. So, this isn't something I know much about. I just hear a lot of complaints about it. And if the passing threads are doing more harm than good, I'm concerned about that. It's not a personal judgment on anybody who's posted pics. I don't read these threads. And really don't care whether someone 'passes' or not.

I admit that I tend to stay away from these unless there's someone who is clearly passable or even very pretty that has serious doubts and needs a fat reality check.  I see it almost everyday where people give words of encouragement to someone who isn't quite ready for primetime, and I have mixed feelings about it.  On one hand, I would hate to tell someone "no f-ing way, babe" and have them end up on a TDOR list.  In the other hand, I would hate to be the one who says "you go, girl" to someone who later gets their ass kicked (or worse).  I don't think I could live with myself.  There are some of us who frankly aren't ever going to look remotely female with or without extensive surgery.

Do I pass?  I don't know.  I don't really care.  I'm not exactly pretty, I'm probably too big, but I'm Jill 24/7 now and that is how it will always be.  I own it, I'm confident about it, I love it, I hate it.  Being trans is like starring in your own f-ing tragedy.  I wouldn't wish it on my own worst enemy. 

I think most people are a little too nice on the passing threads. I try to be as honest as I can when on one of those threads but I try to avoid them. Also I wouldn't necessarily say all ftm's will pass after enough time on t. Don't get me wrong I've seen some pretty hot ftm's on this site and in real life. But I've seen some that look masculine but you can tell they are trans. But that may just be me I have pretty good transdar (yeah I just made that word up)and normally will know before I ever find out they are trans. But I will acknowledge mtf's have it harder in terms of passing and mostly it just comes down to luck and good genes. But whether somebody passes or not I think it is more important to be honest and constructive. Because you ain't doing anybody no favors telling somebody they pass then they go out in the real world and have they're heart broke.   

I'll have to log in from my computer later to vote in the poll, but I don't think the passing thread is a bad thing, just that it needs to be better understood.

Perhaps a poster should ask specifically for positive feedback, negative feedback or both.

Most of the time I am looking for things to improve or things that won't pass that I need to hide. Other times I may just want a confidence booster and look for just complements. I don't think 3 separate threads would be good because there would be too much photo reposting and overlap and people would only comment in one section and therefore omit half of the desired commentary.

I feel that as long as whoever posts understands and communicates what sort of commentary they want, then there should be no issue.

Perhaps instead of a "passing" thread it could be a "progress" thread that includes speculation, observation, and general encouragement.

I know there is another thread "you look fabulous v. Somethingorother" but that seems more of a thread for those who consider themselves passing already.

Anyway that's my 2 cents on the matter.

In my view, I don't think a thread asking and commenting on whether someone does, can, or will pass is useful at all, to be honest. Simply because I don't think any reply, whether too nice or the opposite, can ever really be objective enough to do anything other than make the asker feel either good or bad about themselves. By virtue of it being asked here in the first place. Whoever comments on the question is dealing with their own standards, insecurities and ideas about what passing is, means, or involves. And those get injected into the replies. Whether that being through someone subconsciously thinking what they'd like to hear in that place, or someone passing in their own specific circumstances and applying that as a blanket method of what is required to do so... whatever the case maybe, all the replies are passed through the commenters' own trans filters and so I don't think they're actually as objective as they need to be.

The "Fabulous/Badass" threads are a different thing, and I do think a place for people to show themselves feeling good about themselves, without comment on whether they pass or not, is a good thing. But asking whether one passes, especially on a trans forum, seems counterproductive. The people who will come into contact with you in the wider world won't, by and large, be applying the same filters to your appearance that other trans people do.

I would much prefer to see a more general thread documenting the things people have done in their own lives to help them in life, with regard to passing. One which everyone can take away what they feel benefits them personally, rather than asking for opinions on something that, at best, can only really be subjective.

I don't post in them very often and I'm not critical either. I don't have any problem with them and I'm not sure how you would prevent people from discussing their passingness.

Edited the original post.
This link may also help: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163281.msg1405030.html#msg1405030

If these threads are harmful, I don't want to leave them up.

I think there is an issue with narcissism in the the threads.

It also prompts  misunderstanding: you have to be beautiful physically to 'pass'.
This is similar to the attitude to teen girls that have to conform to an artificial standard.

Beauty is all?

A woman is a woman. There is no need for justification.

Although some women need it - tongue in cheek- that's what lovers are for :laugh:

I have seen some "overly" positive responses and also some "overly" negative responses.  I see these threads more as a way to show your picture.  Most of us know up front how we look and how well we pass.

I haven't posted a picture of myself there and would not.

Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 01:42:56 PM
Edited the original post.
This link may also help: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163281.msg1405030.html#msg1405030

If these threads are harmful, I don't want to leave them up.

I don't find them harmful but I don't think people should put much faith in them as to whether they can pass or not.

I check out those topics quite a bit but I won't post a reply in one. I feel I am unqualified to answer that question because I don't know all that much about surgeries and other things yet that could make a big difference.

Also, a personal reason, is that I don't ever wanna be mean to anyone even online, I'm weird like that. A lot of people can and do be asses to others online because they can get away with it and be anonymous about it but I'm not like that. I just imagine that what if that person is having a ->-bleeped-<-ty day and comes online to get away from it, a safe haven, and then gets picked on and insulted, hurt, and then what? I wanna be as honest as possible but in a nice way and I don't wanna do that to anyone so I just avoid commenting on them entirely.

In my personal opinion, I think some people would have a really hard time passing but mostly still get positive comments. Sometimes people will get skipped and feel ignored and I wonder if it is because others don't think they can pass but don't wanna be the ones to say it or something? To the ones who have fabulous transitions I just wanna say this: I hate you all LOL (j/k, its total jealousy thing)  ;)

If we're being honest, it's sisters who don't pass yet you see they carry an inflated sense of their passability expressed in their tacky dressing outside in the cis world. Their photos speak for themselves. And where is this inflated ego coming from? (maybe here?)

Why it bothers me. Because in the real world, people tend to remember the negatives. These negatives fuel prejudice in peoples minds. There's a lot of prejudice against the trans community.

It directly EFFECTS ME.

You post at your own risk, even on a support site.

Imagine being a woman over 25 and hearing some of the things said around here about us from time to time.

The internets can take some thick skin to handle, just like real life.

If you only wish to confirm your own beliefs, do not ask anyone else questions.

IMO, this site would be a much lonelier place, and a much less helpful place, if there were no photo threads to get to know people's faces. I know when I see people's stories about life experiences, I really need to mentally see a picture of the person to go along with that story. That way I can know what stage of transition they're at, whether they pass to my eyes or not, and therefore where to mentally classify such stories. For example: "See? She doesn't look any better than me, and yet is having no problems whatsoever. I need to chill out." or "See? if I give it enough time on HRT it will work out for me too." or "Oh man, she looks way more passable than me and yet is still having problems. I need to learn from this."

Again, me personally, I really need this visual aid. It helps me put a name to faces, a face to their stories about what transitioning is like, and make better personal connections with people because I can put a face to their triumphs and struggles. Plus I'll admit, they REALLY helped me get my self-esteem enough to leave the house in "girl mode" for the first time. So for those who are just nervous and self-conscious, and just need that extra little push to get moving forward, it is a big help. I can't really comment on negative experiences, though. I guess I don't see those when they happen. Egos being bruised a bit, maybe, when either they don't get any comments and feel a bit hurt, or if they still get clocked in the "real" world despite being told that they pass here, but that's about the worst that I usually see.

However... for the love of God, do NOT get rid of the "Before and After" thread or the "Fabulous" thread! The former is by far the biggest and best resource I have EVER seen in terms of showing people that transition really is possible. Without that thread, I might not have EVER found the courage to transition. So PLEASE keep that one! It helps SO many people! And the "Fabulous" thread doesn't hurt anyone, because it's just a celebration thread. It's just people sharing pictures of a new dress or some moment where they felt especially fabulous, and it's a great thread where you can just share your joy with the community and make a great moment of happiness even better. I love that thread!

The "Do I Pass?" Thread, I've personally found to be moderately helpful, but I could live with or without it. The other two, though, those definitely need to stay.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 17, 2014, 01:25:50 PMI would much prefer to see a more general thread documenting the things people have done in their own lives to help them in life, with regard to passing. One which everyone can take away what they feel benefits them personally, rather than asking for opinions on something that, at best, can only really be subjective.

This ^^

It's 6am so, I have some thoughts on this thread but I'll sleep first :p. I think the problem is the context "am I passing" is very subjective, and for somebody like me who is pre-HRT and still dressing in male clothes (blargh, btw) isn't what I'd want a response on anyway, yet posting in the thread, people would ignore my photo because based on the context they're thinking "Wow not passing" and keep scrolling, not wanting to hurt feelings or letting themselves reply on somebody who is very much passing so that they don't have to deal with the non-passing. I think it's harmful, because every person should get words of encouragement or costructive criticism to help. Thus maybe a "help me pass" thread or "feminine progress" thread is a much better idea. At a least then more of us could post photos, not asking specifically 'if we pass', but just getting some friendly advice from girlfriends. THAT DRESS WITH THOSE SHOES? What are you thinking girl?

I get that some people might be unstable, so maybe there should be a post limit before you can post in a thread like the passing thread (so we can get to know the members before they post a photo) but flat out ignoring people isn't any better than not commenting -_-

Quote from: Cindy on April 17, 2014, 01:47:19 PM
I think there is an issue with narcissism in the the threads.

I think that's most threads lol.

If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...

I have mixed feelings about those threads. Like others have said they might give a badly needed boost to someone's courage, or they could potentially make someone over confident and expose them to danger in the real world. It is nice to connect a picture to a screen name though.

People have a choice of whether to participate in those threads, and they get out of them whatever they get out of them. For me i choose not to participate in them, and I rely on RLE to tell me how I'm doing in the real world.

In my own experiences, people have mainly said they're jealous of my appearance, and a lot of the times there is immense honesty in jealousy. It's one thing to call someone beautiful but it's another to bring yourself to actually proclaim to someone that you're jealous. I don't think I could ever express personal envy for someone if I didn't mean it. There are just some points of honesty reserved for real situations, and that's one of them.

I think criticism is what leads to people's desire for appreciation. If there was never judgement or negative subjectivity, it's likely that people wouldn't have as much doubt about their passing abilities. This comes from the people who are insecure themselves as well. They may see other transgirls and be completely baffled why anyone could think they pass, and then convince themselves that they will turn out similar in the vein that they won't pass or express aesthetic femininity. That's where the desire for outside opinions comes in.

This is not just about passability. The world is full of delusion, smoke and mirrors. Countless times have I seen young men and women in tears after being told they lacked a sufficient amount of singing talent in auditioning for American Idol. It's because the people they loved and trusted had supported them in a way that would eventually do more harm than good because they went in there with too much enthusiasm, fueled by the fact their families told them they possessed talent in that particular area. I've even seen post-auditions where their parents and aunts and uncles or even the auditioners themselves are yelling at the judges and telling them that they truly do possess that talent, and it is almost exclusively due to the confidence the people around them bestowed upon them. There's no rule book. It's all subjective, and some people just can't stand the popular opinion.

That being said, it's obvious that just because someone auditioned for American Idol and didn't make it doesn't mean they should give up singing. If people are true to themselves, they will go for it anyway. What may not achieve the best results in the world or be beneficial for anyone but them is what will make them happy. Surrounding yourself with yes-people is where the problem lies. Some people seriously need to be honest with themselves and accept criticism. You don't have to look at the world as either fluffy rainbow land or the dark depths of the 9th layer of hell. It really is not that dramatic. It's not about being able to handle or trying to deny criticism. You don't always get to do that unless you hide yourself away forever and never talk to another soul that doesn't agree with everything you are, say and do. You don't escape criticism...you measure it. You find out how much you need in a way that will improve you as a person, if you are indeed looking for that improvement.

I think if people are expecting a type of criticism or lack thereof, they should state it based on their expectations and wants. If you post a picture, you can either get severe amounts of unrelenting and painful negative honesty that you may not be able to handle, or you could be lifted up into the skies by a barrage of sugar-coated and supportive complements on a silver platter covered in gold leaf and an exotic white truffle. However, if you explicitly state that you want honest but kind criticism regarding your appearance, or whether you're just seeking compliments or positive opinions on how this makeup looks on you or what clothing does and doesn't work, that's where real progress comes in without the extremes. I have confidence in the fact that I will pass with flying colors and so I post my pictures without stating what I want; I'm one of the luckier transgirls and so I doubt people are going to tell me I won't pass when nobody has questioned it for a second so far. People I know, people I've talked to very little, and people I've never met have all told me their honest opinions and I have never gotten a negative one so far. I'm as critical of other people's appearances as I am my own, and if I think about it as "If I saw this picture of another transgirl, what would be my honest, unhinged internal opinion?". Being as critical as I am, I know that I will pass. Nobody I've met has said otherwise, and so that gives me reason to believe I truly will look and feel beautiful.

Let's be honest though, some people have ridiculous standards for others' appearance. I don't believe there are many people that can't pass. Sure, you can be a 6'7" super soldier with buff abs and a hard face, but I've seen people with ridiculous amounts of muscle, size, facial and body hair that I would never assume could pass still manage to look beautiful. Not just passable, but beautiful. That's without FFS too, which is what some transwomen feel they should resort to. So even if you feel like you won't pass, there's always that chance you will, and fantastically. Others are more genetically fortunate for it or have more significant effects on their bodies resulting from HRT, but that doesn't mean people without those perks will be unable to pass. It's 33% appearance, 33% voice, and 33% personality and attitude. A friend told me yesterday that it's 50% confidence and I agree completely. So looking female and passing physically (which are what people are aiming to get opinions on in the passing thread, it seems, considering most people just post pictures and not videos showing off their voice or mannerisms) is not what it's all about. If you truly feel female, then be that way. You should have no trouble passing on the inside if you just believe in yourself.

That's my opinion.

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...

I say sarcasm font should be italics with reverse tilt.

Back on topic.

From what I've read here since my earlier post, I now think it should a thread about current progress, updates etc (because we don't have that sort of a photo thread)

If that is the main purpose, then the poster can ask for comments positive or negative if they want, otherwise it is just some photos to go along with a short story about the day.

I also agree with those who have posted that the before/after and fabulous threads should not be eliminated. They are both very inspirational and give that extra push to start transition right when it is needed most.

Like Cindy said, looking pretty does not a woman make.

I do think seeming female can help though, part of that is attitude, part is presentation, part is behavior, part is voice.

The need to look good is a personal one, and genetics, as well as the opinions of others are what ultimately decide what looks good.

If looking good, or at least better, didn't matter at all, why do all societies, sexes, and/or genders have the occasional FORMAL event? Why do soldiers have dress uniforms? Why does the Pope wear that hat? Why do football players wash their uniforms between games, when they are just going to get dirty? Why do men shave, or trim their beards? Why doesn't the president of the US wear gym shorts when he delivers the State of the Union Address? Why do actors wear tuxedos to The Oscars?

Every item of Western clothing or fashion worn today by women was first worn by men... except for the bra and g string. Dresses, makeup, skirts, heels, wigs...

It is no surprise to me that people wish to look better, and seek out feedback at a place like this from time to time. Heck, it is even fun to do, especially when it doesn't take so durn long.

I tend to stay out of those types of threads. Usually, if I have posted a pic of myself, it had more to do with showing off my Portia shirt instead of asking if I passed or not. I tend to judge how I am treated when I am out and about rather than what someone on a trans forum thinks. I've had some people tell me that I looked too masculine and I would just roll my eyes at such a statement. Sure, I don't kid myself about any of this, I DO look andro from time to time but that is just the way it goes. I'm never going to fit the stereotypical view of what is beautiful and I don't care about that at the end of the day. How things go out in the world carry far more weight in my opinion.

I'm actually surprised by the amount of backlash, first off the threads are usually "Can I pass", not "Am I a 9 or a 10" or even "Do I pass".

I think almost anyone can pass assuming we dress and behave appropriately. When I reply to one of these posts I'm not thinking does that picture pass, I'm thinking can the person pass with everything else in place.

If possible I try to  provide constructive criticism, e.g. get rid of the stubble and drop the sheer red dress for a conservative black dress to assist others in getting all their ducks in a row.

Perhaps the threads should be renamed to "What do I need in order to pass?" in order to remove any confusion.

Quote from: Laura Squirrel on April 17, 2014, 03:55:27 PM
Usually, if I have posted a pic of myself, it had more to do with showing off my Portia shirt instead of asking if I passed or not.

Like your style!  :laugh:

Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 03:58:25 PM
Like your style!  :laugh:

Well, that's just the way it is. I've met enough people that didn't know me at all that had no idea that I was trans and I've also had people question others as to what I was.

Meh...that's the way that the cookie crumbles.

And Portia RULES!

Oh yeah......

I definitely stay out of these threads.  I just don't want to hurt someone's feelings.  I have seen lots of pictures where, to the eye which knows which markers to look for,  the person definitely does not pass yet they receive overwhelmingly fake messages saying 'total pass'  etc. I think it just removes all value.  My mother taught me that if I don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2F2ibhkkh.jpg&hash=f58b6a3d1a34290ec8a8e0d5a4370ce592c8bbad)

I have absolutely no opinion to express about the threads because I never visit the threads because if I did visit the threads I would receive a lifetime ban for the things I would say. Not because I would be commenting on what anyone said nor about anyone asking "how do I look? " on there but because I find the mindset that I perceive would lead someone to ask that question a little challenging to understand.

Rosie

When I post in that thread I usually preface it with "please be brutally honest, I can take it" because otherwise I just can't trust the feedback. However I do expect criticisms to be constructive rather than "Well honestly, you look like ->-bleeped-<-."

Everyones idea of a man and a woman looks is different

but yeah sometimes im in the passing thread , I see a person who is not even close to passing
and everyone is like "yeah you look amazing" etc etc

I think we should be a little more honest

also the phrase "hormones work magic" is being used way too often...

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 03:30:37 PM
Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

That's a pretty important point. I'm not sure that, at least for some people who ask in threads about passing, an experience with appearance is all it is. Like Kate said, some people are pretty vulnerable and perhaps have far more tied up in asking the question than just their appearance. I think that for some, maybe just for a few, wanting to know if they pass relates to more than how they look. And answers they receive or don't receive in these threads go some way towards validating their identity. That a negative, or lack of response actually does impact detrimentally on their sense of worth, or their sense of self. The subtext of the question "Do I pass" might actually be "Do you think I am who I say I am?". It's hard to know, though, because a lot remains unsaid. Forums aren't the ideal medium for nuance and reading between the lines. But I would say it's a possibility.

I said that I feel people are too optimistic. I don't believe most people lie, I think they just try to find the most positive features about someone.

I personally don't lie. If I think someone would pass, I mean it. If I don't think they pass, I either don't say anything (if they're just flat out too early in transition to pass, period), or I say something that I hope will be constructive (when I see why they don't pass - if it's one or two things).

Quote from: FalsePrincess on April 17, 2014, 04:33:15 PM
Everyones idea of a man and a woman looks is different

but yeah sometimes im in the passing thread , I see a person who is not even close to passing
and everyone is like "yeah you look amazing" etc etc

I think we should be a little more honest

also the phrase "hormones work magic" is being used way too often...

Hormones work magic depending on the person, hence YMMV. For some people, it will have drastic effects, and for others it will passively change them. Hormones do work. Magic is the question. Considering most of the after pictures have makeup and wigs/done up hair and are taken after shaving or having gotten laser/electrolysis is doing little to present the true effects of hormones to people. I don't know anyone who wakes up looking like a supermodel.

Quote from: birkin on April 17, 2014, 04:39:35 PM
I said that I feel people are too optimistic. I don't believe most people lie, I think they just try to find the most positive features about someone.

I personally don't lie. If I think someone would pass, I mean it. If I don't think they pass, I either don't say anything (if they're just flat out too early in transition to pass, period), or I say something that I hope will be constructive (when I see why they don't pass - if it's one or two things).

I feel this sums up what the passing threads should be all about.

Quote from: antonia on April 17, 2014, 03:57:27 PM
I'm actually surprised by the amount of backlash, first off the threads are usually "Can I pass", not "Am I a 9 or a 10" or even "Do I pass".

I think almost anyone can pass assuming we dress and behave appropriately. When I reply to one of these posts I'm not thinking does that picture pass, I'm thinking can the person pass with everything else in place.

If possible I try to  provide constructive criticism, e.g. get rid of the stubble and drop the sheer red dress for a conservative black dress to assist others in getting all their ducks in a row.

Perhaps the threads should be renamed to "What do I need in order to pass?" in order to remove any confusion.

I agree with this, and pretty much what I was aiming for when I posted in that thread.

Is it lying or is it encouragement? Like others, I actively avoid commenting in that thread...how could I ever be the judge if someone is passable based on a couple of pics? Someone might be gorgeous but have the mannerisms of the worst chauvinist pig ever. They might walk like a construction worker. They might sound like Barry White with a cold. They might look great but are clueless about what's needed to pass. Conversely, maybe they don't look great at all, you'd look at the pics and think "never in a million years"...but I could never say that because I know someone who is trans* is in utter pain; a woman in a male body who doesn't need or want to hear "forget it".

Besides, if the a Before & After thread teaches us anything it's that transformations of the most amazing magnitude are possible - whether it be through HRT, make up, wig, posture, clothes, presentation, attitude, voice training, boobs, confidence, FFS surgery or whatever, so many of our sisters have gone from "no way" to "OMG".

Maybe the question should be "could I pass looking like this?" - most of the time the answer would be no. Too depressing and discouraging for many. Perhaps "what can I do to pass considering this is how I look now?"...the answers might be more constructive.

Passing isn't just about looks, and typically we get way too caught up in that factor. There are cis women out there who don't really look like women at all and yet they are treated as women. Being a woman - trans or cis - is about the whole package, not just looks. If anyone wants to pass they may need to do a lot of work, physical and behavioural, but ultimately it's about being confident and convincing.

Sisters, stare down the doubters and naysayers - be the woman you want to be. :)

Quote from: Vicki on April 17, 2014, 04:55:55 PM
post about being inspired by before & after [snipped for vicki]

I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 03:41:07 PMIn my own experiences, people have mainly said they're jealous of my appearance, and a lot of the times there is immense honesty in jealousy. It's one thing to call someone beautiful but it's another to bring yourself to actually proclaim to someone that you're jealous.

Uhm... I think this quote might be an example of why that thread's sometimes bad. Some of the responses I see have to be exaggerations.

I mean, for someone who will never stand a chance at "passing", people should just compliment the actual good physical traits that said person has. Don't call them beautiful, don't tell them they'll pass and throw sand in their eyes, but make them feel good about something. This keeps their expectations realistic and reinforces their self-esteem.

The problem I mostly see is with people who're young, new to their transsexualism, that come and post their pictures in boy-mode. If there's anything remotely feminine about their face, they're automatically assured and reassured that they will pass. It's good to boost their self-esteem, but this is also going to push them towards transition with certain expectations... and nobody, I mean nobody, can say for sure that those expectations will be met. How is that person going to feel once he/she realises that it's not that easy, that the responses he/she got in this board differ from people's reactions in real life? What if years into transition, they end up regretting it because they simply don't like how they ended up looking like? That's the real problem.

Saying nice things is good, but people with low self-esteem are more prone to be affected and influenced by what you have to say, they're in a vulnerable position. So yes, be kind, but don't raise false hopes on people. That's the way I feel about it, at least.

Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 05:08:48 PM


I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

If you think I post my worst pictures here... Ha! I post the 1 in 100 that I actually like. I know I am not the only one.

Here's a thought. Maybe we *need* to bring out a dose of reality so we don't have people dig themselves further into a hole that will be worse than living As Assigned at Birth.

Why am I feeling sorry for people and their decisions again?

Copying this post back here, since it was moved to a different thread, but was really 90% meant as a reply to this one:

"[What I see in this debate] is really just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"

Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulously, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.

We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.

My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama [over easily-hurt feelings in the MtF section.]"

Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 05:08:48 PM


I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

Ehh, I decided to take that post down after thinking about it. However, I guess I should elaborate a bit more since I was quoted before I could take it down, haha.

I realize that a picture is nothing like an actual person in real life, I've study animation intensively and know the nuisances that can not be depicted by a still picture. I realize that sounds incredibly odd, but when you animate things, you watch very closely as to how things move in real life and translate that to paper, or whatever you are working on. I'm not naive, I didn't take the thread at face value, or anything like that. What it did for me was give me that slight bit of hope, and maybe that is really all I need to take the plunge from "questioning" to "on HRT". Who knows, maybe it was a mistake for me to get a sense of hope by that thread, but at the end of the day it helped push me the rest of the way.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 02:29:13 PM
If we're being honest, it's sisters who don't pass yet you see they carry an inflated sense of their passability expressed in their tacky dressing outside in the cis world. Their photos speak for themselves. And where is this inflated ego coming from? (maybe here?)

Why it bothers me. Because in the real world, people tend to remember the negatives. These negatives fuel prejudice in peoples minds. There's a lot of prejudice against the trans community.

It directly EFFECTS ME.

This is what I think everyone thinks about me all the time.

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 17, 2014, 05:46:45 PM
This is what I think everyone thinks about me all the time.

You are certainly not one of the offenders.  :D

Asking about ones physical appearance does not automatically suggest that their world revolves around it. I am respected in my field, have multiple creative outlets, and absolutely love myself and my work immensely. Having people constantly bemoan the fact that I also own mirrors and would like to look good in them is frustrating to the point of ridiculousness. My appearance doesn't define me, sure, but it does add to my definition. Maybe this is because I am a materialist, so don't really buy into the whole magical pixie spirit currently trapped in a vehicle mentality that spiritual people adhere to, but I care how I look as a woman, and I don't think I should be made to feel vain, selfish, or egotistical for it. I think that the reason why men don't care as much isn't necessarily a gender 'construct' used to make women feel like objects and men treat them as that, I think deep down there is a biological mindset difference, in which women want to be valued for their appearance, not necessarily exclusively, but partly. Even in denial, as a male, I was very different in how I valued my appearance over my friends, and it was always pretty obvious, but just ignored. 

I know it's tangential, but it's odd how often you hear the 'appearance is so superficial' thing on here. Is it? If it's so irrelevant then why do we have dysphoria?  ::)

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 05:11:09 PM
If you think I post my worst pictures here... Ha! I post the 1 in 100 that I actually like. I know I am not the only one.

Yeah.. I could post before & afters that look completely backwards, or look about the same, or look like incredible progress. I was even going to do it to make my point, but I don't actually have the self esteem to show a bad pic of me, cause a bad pic can make me look far worse than I ever would in person...

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 05:09:55 PM
Uhm... I think this quote might be an example of why that thread's sometimes bad. Some of the responses I see have to be exaggerations.

I mean, for someone who will never stand a chance at "passing", people should just compliment the actual good physical traits that said person has. Don't call them beautiful, don't tell them they'll pass and throw sand in their eyes, but make them feel good about something. This keeps their expectations realistic and reinforces their self-esteem.

The problem I mostly see is with people who're young, new to their transsexualism, that come and post their pictures in boy-mode. If there's anything remotely feminine about their face, they're automatically assured and reassured that they will pass. It's good to boost their self-esteem, but this is also going to push them towards transition with certain expectations... and nobody, I mean nobody, can say for sure that those expectations will be met. How is that person going to feel once he/she realises that it's not that easy, that the responses he/she got in this board differ from people's reactions in real life? What if years into transition, they end up regretting it because they simply don't like how they ended up looking like? That's the real problem.

Saying nice things is good, but people with low self-esteem are more prone to be affected and influenced by what you have to say, they're in a vulnerable position. So yes, be kind, but don't raise false hopes on people. That's the way I feel about it, at least.

That's not entirely true in some cases. I don't think I need hormones to pass in pictures. My face already has a feminine enough glow that people actually deny that I'm transgender, and many of those people just barely know the basics of it. It's not ridiculous to say that someone who is young and has feminine features will pass as a female, because the truth of the matter is that it's rare for someone to be young and have good features to not pass. You can't compare it to older transitioners. I've seen just as many barely passable people as bombshells, and I've seen TONS of the worst and best results and examples. In my experience, if there are feminine-looking transgirls that are 20 and below and can't pass with hormones alone, nevermind without being all dolled up, I haven't seen them. Not a single one. I'm sure there are some, however.

We must also realize that the percentage of highly passable transgirls is higher than we may perceive due to the simple fact that many of those who have achieved that feat are likely to just fit in as cis girls in stealth mode. Most of these people are young. It's unrealistic to say that hormones won't work magic at that age, because it's been shown that more effects, all at a more dramatic result and pace, take place the younger the individual is. Find someone who transitioned at 12 and can't pass. It's not THAT much different than one who passes at 16 or 18, compared to people over 20, 30, 40, etc.

Quote from: kate on April 17, 2014, 06:04:40 PM
Sheesh it's hard reading your posts. I don't know if this is intentional, but your coming off as quite arrogant and elitist.

ditto

Whether they are helpful or not, I don't see why they are a problem.  I'm an example of someone who was told they pass and everything, yet I got called a ->-bleeped-<- once in real life after that.  Do I blame anyone here?  Why should I?  People have a perception and not everyone will see things the same way.  Just because someone sees something different or disagrees doesn't make one a liar.  I think there are a lot of assumptions being made.  You can't know what everyone thinks and not everyone will think like you.  It's as simple as that.

I will say on a personal note, those threads helped me.  They made me see that a lot of people don't think as poorly of me as myself.  That I'm my worst enemy in many ways.  Seriously, I look at myself and see a beast.  I want to cry and just hurt myself.  To know that others see something different gives me some hope and helps me cope.  And you know, I'm sure these threads, while overly positive at times, have helped other people see what they've been missing.

I think erasing these threads is going overboard and missing the fact that everything in life has pros as well as cons.

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 06:10:20 PM
ditto

Quote from: kate on April 17, 2014, 06:04:40 PM
Sheesh it's hard reading your posts. I don't know if this is intentional, but your coming off as quite arrogant and elitist.

If I come off that way, I certainly don't mean to. I deal with my own insecurities from time to time. I don't intend to represent the younger trans generation so much as convey what I've seen. I have quite a few trans friends under 20 and so seeing their transitions as compared to older transitioners does show quite a bit of a chasm of difference there in terms of how physically passable one is. This doesn't mean that older transitioners can't pass; in fact, most of the passable ones I've seen are older than 20. And most anyone can pass.

Most of the problems I've dealt with in my life have occurred in a short time. I'm still going through hormonal changes and it's like I'm PMS'ing. Teenage arrogance isn't something to be surprised about, but in no way is it my intention to appear egocentric here. I've dealt with a massive bullying problem from almost exclusively men, and one of the fruits that I intend to reap from transitioning (not one of the reasons, which are much less shallow. In fact, I can't bear to live with myself as a male because of societal expectations and personal discomfort, and so I must transition to female) is to hopefully be model status so I can prove all those who said I'd never achieve my dreams wrong. All those who bullied me and called me '->-bleeped-<-got' and 'homo'. All those disgusting, worthless swine who purposely referred to me with male pronouns to intimidate me and make me distraught, and suddenly I'm a more attractive female than they'll ever be capable of dating. I want them to know they never won over me. Like I said, this isn't my reason for transitioning, but the way people have treated me because of my gender has given me a sense of arrogance in that I'll be more than just a passable Transgirl.

I've made it clear in other threads that my true reason for transitioning is to feel comfortable and happy in life.

Like I said in this explanation:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9uELbrI.jpg&hash=8e5c0817869eae1e69dce9a061b33d52b51ebf24)


As far back as I can remember, I've always presented online as female. It's not like I suddenly came to this conclusion years down the line. As soon as I figured out what puberty was, I knew that I wasn't supposed to be male. So having to hide this without the ability to do that I want as an adult, unable to look up the resources I could because I was too young at the time, repressed me. I didn't know that I could transition to female until around 2009-2010, and I didn't know it was achievable to such results until 2013. Only when I joined Susan's did I know that it was achievable for myself personally, and this wave of happiness is still lasting. The girlmode pics I've posted are feeding that arrogance, and surely it is only temporary, my ecstatic nature is taking hold of my reasoning and I apologize for that.

Very few teens who transition are able to do so without their parent's consent.

Imagine what having parental guidance through transition at such a young age does to one's self image.

I promise, self worth comes before beauty in many people.

Not everyone is so fortunate.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 05:49:20 PM
You are certainly not one of the offenders.  :D

But I do feel that way. That if somebody says something nice it is just that they're being nice. Maybe I'm just so used to being humiliated and beat down. I don't feel like I pass at all, so I try not to focus on that so much so much and I don't really participate in these threads.

I read an article a long time ago about what passing means. The authors point was that there is passing in the sense of looking appropriate within the context of the trans community, that we can all freely and easily pass in. And there is passing in the sense of the rest of the world and being read female 100%, which is a much higher standard to achieve. Her feeling was that her friends would often use the term passing to just mean "your make up looks good", "your outfit is nice" etc. It became a sort of catch all word. I can't remember how it concluded, but it has stuck with me for a long time. So now I tend to only view myself in my ability to be accepted into the trans world and that the idea that I could ever pass outside of it as an impossible goal.

Well first off, I have the advantage of having years of living in my role. So maybe I just see things differently. Let me just start by saying this: if by passing you just mean a static picture of someone, then sure why not? With the right lighting anyone can be handsome or drop dead gorgeous. On the other hand, if you mean the real world, I believe that we all get read, M2F as well as F2M, no one is immune. Why do I say this? Because we have a different life experience that we came from. It's what makes us different and in my mind makes us special.

We are in the end transgender people no matter how many surgeries and things we have done. It's not because we are not physically capable of blending, but our sum total life experience that brings us to that point in our lives and will mold how we act in the next minute.

Anyone who can claim to know if someone is passing or not from a photo is lying, and that's my own thoughts. Passing is a package deal and how we deal with this is how we integrated our total self into the new self that we try to create for ourselves. As soon as I started to realize this I knew I was not a conventional woman anymore. Oh sure I had all the right lady parts in all the right places, but so what? If I snapped a picture anyone would say girl. If I passed through an airport scanner people will say girl. But on close examination for a long enough period I believe anyone can figure me out simply because I am different from most women, but that's okay by me.

I took the path of embracing my differences from born women and reinvented myself into a new person when i transitioned who is physically female enough (for my own personal satisfaction and no one else's). So do I pass? From a picture sure I could cut it. I've had all the requisite surgeries done. Given time though anyone could figure me out.

I believe the same thing can also be said for F2Ms as well. Fooling people is something that happens at a Halloween party. Passing as a man means acting like a man and no F2M has that life experience, therefore they will get clocked just like M2F will. People I find are nice and won't say things to someone's face, because they might not be 100% certain but they have some odd suspicion that something is wrong,

That's just my own 2 cents. Thanks for bringing this subject up.

Another thing is, I am being barred from transitioning until a year and a half from now, so all I can do now is reassure myself that it will all be worth it, and a bubble of elitism is resulting from that. When I transition, that bubble will surely pop and I'll become more modest. But right now, I am youthful and I am being restricted from transitioning. That's a year and a half of my youth that I'll never get back, even if I am lucky that I'm still transitioning so early. It's different to be experiencing youth when you want to transition than looking back on it. It's not knowing that you could've made things different, it's the frustration that you so easily can and yet such a simple thing is holding me back and keeping me from it.

Kia Ora,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXQTWCTc0aI

Many happy people are not physically beautiful or passable and many physically beautiful & passable people are not mentally happy...

Que sera sera

Metta Anatta :)

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 05:58:15 PM
That's not entirely true in some cases. I don't think I need hormones to pass in pictures. My face already has a feminine enough glow that people actually deny that I'm transgender, and many of those people just barely know the basics of it. It's not ridiculous to say that someone who is young and has feminine features will pass as a female, because the truth of the matter is that it's rare for someone to be young and have good features to not pass. You can't compare it to older transitioners. I've seen just as many barely passable people as bombshells, and I've seen TONS of the worst and best results and examples.

Uhm... I don't want to sound like a bitch but your pictures are clearly edited. I don't know much about photoshop but it's obvious that you airbrush your skin and slap on lighting/bloom effects that veil facial features and make everything look smoother/softer. I understand wanting to conceal your flaws and receive positive feedback, but posts stating others are jealous of you and that it makes you feel better than being called beautiful is a little... Well, what the others said. I really hope that I am not offending you but it's probably worth noting that HRT isn't magic... It's not photoshop. Ultimately I think you are creating a lot of unhealthy expectations and I frankly don't blame you, but... Yeah. Feet on the ground is better I think =/

That said, I hope your transition is as you hope it to be. I think I can wish nothing but the best to people who've been through gender dysphoria. 

Furthermore, age hasn't got all that much to do with it... Not once you're over 16. Look at the Miami TG prom queen, she doesn't pass and has probably started HRT very early. My endocrinologist said that age wasn't the most important thing. Genetics and responsiveness to estrogen are. You cannot predict these things...

Again, I really hope I don't sound mean but we should stop perpetuating lies about HRT so that people don't get mislead when going into it. No therapist will give you guarantees that you'll be happy with the results... We shouldn't be doing it either... =/

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 06:44:40 PM
Another thing is, I am being barred from transitioning until a year and a half from now, so all I can do now is reassure myself that it will all be worth it, and a bubble of elitism is resulting from that. When I transition, that bubble will surely pop and I'll become more modest. But right now, I am youthful and I am being restricted from transitioning. That's a year and a half of my youth that I'll never get back, even if I am lucky that I'm still transitioning so early. It's different to be experiencing youth when you want to transition than looking back on it. It's not knowing that you could've made things different, it's the frustration that you so easily can and yet such a simple thing is holding me back and keeping me from it.

just to give you a little perspective , I've had this mind body conflict since birth. I lived in a different time. If you had this situation back then they wanted to electro sock you into not wanting to be female. I was lucky my parents knew how I was but decided to protect me. next came the many therapist who thought the right approach was to man up. The path to freedom was hidden from me . I've finally made it to what I so desperately needed since basically birth , but realistically  if I could of gotten it, it would of been when I first approach a psychiatrist at 20. I never once stopped progressing towards women hood it's just that I was denied hormones because I didn't know it was possible. therapist never offered to show me the path. It took a bout with suicide to open the door .I'm so glad I made it to that door. Whether or not people accept the female me eventually is almost irrelevant compared to the way my brain is healing on estrogen. Oh by the way you are very lucky, I had to wait till I was 62.

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 07:04:04 PM
Uhm... I don't want to sound like a bitch but your pictures are clearly edited. I don't know much about photoshop but it's obvious that you airbrush your skin and slap on lighting/bloom effects that veil facial features and make everything look smoother/softer. I understand wanting to conceal your flaws and receive positive feedback, but posts stating others are jealous of you and that it makes you feel better than being called beautiful is a little... Well, what the others said. I really hope that I am not offending you but it's probably worth noting that HRT isn't magic... It's not photoshop. Ultimately I think you are creating a lot of unhealthy expectations and I frankly don't blame you, but... Yeah. Feet on the ground is better I think =/

That said, I hope your transition is as you hope it to be. I used to relate with hoping age is a determining factor but there's more than that to it...

Furthermore, age hasn't got all that much to do with it... Not once you're over 16. Look at the Miami TG prom queen, she doesn't pass and has probably started HRT very early. My endocrinologist said that age wasn't the most important thing. Genetics and responsiveness to estrogen are. You cannot predict these things...

Again, I really hope I don't sound mean but we should stop perpetuating lies about HRT so that people don't get mislead when going into it. No therapist will give you guarantees that you'll be happy with the results... We shouldn't be doing it either... =/

The same effects I achieve with adding makeup to my pictures are the same I'll achieve by applying makeup in real life. I know I'm not going to look like I do in the pictures when I wake up, but I've seen people walk around the streets look the same as I do in the pictures and they're not airbrushing themselves except with makeup. HRT will surely clear up the rough spots of not being able to pass as female without makeup right now.

I understand that my expectations should be lower, but it's all I can do to distract myself from dysphoria as I have to wait to transition.

I wouldn't say that other people have said they're jealous of me if they really hadn't. These are actual posts on Susan's that I can quote. Would I be lying if I said they didn't flatter me? Yes. Am I particularly happy about fellow transgirls being jealous of me? No. It sucks that I'm being built up this way sometimes, and it also sucks that I see a lack of confidence in other people. I'm no model, not yet, if I even am one when I transition. I'm no role model until I transition. Nobody wants to hear advice from a pre-everything transgender. I don't feel better than anyone else.

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 07:10:54 PM
just to give you a little perspective , I've had this mind body conflict since birth. I lived in a different time. If you had this situation back then they wanted to electro sock you into not wanting to be female. I was lucky my parents knew how I was but decided to protect me. next came the many therapist who thought the right approach was to man up. The path to freedom was hidden from me . I've finally made it to what I so desperately needed since basically birth , but realistically  if I could of gotten it, it would of been when I first approach a psychiatrist at 20. I never once stopped progressing towards women hood it's just that I was denied hormones because I didn't know it was possible. therapist never offered to show me the path. It took a bout with suicide to open the door .I'm so glad I made it to that door. Whether or not people accept the female me eventually is almost irrelevant compared to the way my brain is healing on estrogen. Oh by the way you are very lucky, I had to wait till I was 62.

I know this now and I have the utmost sympathy for you...the time you grew up in was horrible. I can't imagine how it must have been. I am a bit confused, correct me if mistaken, how you were somehow oblivious on how to obtain hormones over the last 20 years, if it was societal backlash that first prevented you from it in the first place. I don't know the exact situation.

That's the thing though. If it seems that I'm trying to make my problems seem worse than anyone else's, that isn't it. Every Transgirl has problems. It's not fair to compare problems in this way, especially when the impact is subjective and dependent on how the person in question views it. Your whole life has prevented you from transitioning, and my whole life as well, despite the fact we're at different ages. So while the lifetimes are of different length, they're still lifetimes, and my perspective may not be the same as yours because I'm transitioning at a luckier time and therefore won't live as long as you have without transitioning. I am lucky in the sense that I can do this while I am in my teen years.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:19:33 PM
how you were somehow oblivious on how to obtain hormones over the last 20 years, if it was societal backlash that first prevented you from it in the first place. I don't know the exact situation.

Because we lived so long without the benefit of acceptance for one and it was a lot harder for us to come out. The other thing is we had much more to lose with families, careers and other things single young people don't. It takes a while to dispose of all of those things.

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 07:04:04 PM
Uhm... I don't want to sound like a bitch but your pictures are clearly edited. I don't know much about photoshop but it's obvious that you airbrush your skin and slap on lighting/bloom effects that veil facial features and make everything look smoother/softer. I understand wanting to conceal your flaws and receive positive feedback, but posts stating others are jealous of you and that it makes you feel better than being called beautiful is a little... Well, what the others said. I really hope that I am not offending you but it's probably worth noting that HRT isn't magic... It's not photoshop. Ultimately I think you are creating a lot of unhealthy expectations and I frankly don't blame you, but... Yeah. Feet on the ground is better I think =/

Yeah this is the really truthful nitty gritty (I squirmed a little reading this) [chic you are still ok in my book] ... Unfortunately I've noticed this with the photoshopping around these parts and agree with this observation.

I have been lurking on that thread a good number of times, not for judging but to see how people look like. Simple curiosity. I never read the comments. That said, I'm not going to post any picture of myself there. I don't ask for validation but saying I don't care about passing would be a lie. I post a selfie when I make an 'extraordinary' claim (because it requires extraordinary evidence).

Sonia

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 07:25:26 PM
Because we lived so long without the benefit of acceptance for one and it was a lot harder for us to come out. The other thing is we had much more to lose with families, careers and other things single young people don't. It takes a while to dispose of all of those things.

That's what I couldn't put my finger on. Although I can't believe there are so little transgirls over 20 that were never married. Is there a reason for that? Is that due to marrying out of, love, obligation, loneliness, masculine overcompensation? A combination? It depends on the person, I suppose.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 07:27:08 PM
Yeah this is the really truthful nitty gritty (I squirmed a little reading this) [chic you are still ok in my book] ... Unfortunately I've noticed this with the photoshopping around these parts and agree with this observation.

As I said in my last post, the 'airbrushing' is done with makeup apps and therefore will be similar to makeup in real life. I see people walking around in real life with makeup that is pretty much the same as the makeup I apply in the app.

It isn't done in an effort to make me physically look better so much as to make the wig blend in with the picture and therefore make it realistic.

In fact, I doubt anyone who hadn't already had the picture airbrushed and put a filter over everything could possibly make the result of a makeup app look realistic. When I transition, there are sure to be tons of makeup-less pics. I don't care whether the ones now are edited or not, the results are achievable through makeup, and I need that extra encouragement now. When I start seeing results on hormones, that's when I'll slow down the makeup + filter selfies. But as of now, extraordinary results through the app are helpful for soothing the wound of dysphoria that's ever-present right now.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:13:48 PM
The same effects I achieve with adding makeup to my pictures are the same I'll achieve by applying makeup in real life. I know I'm not going to look like I do in the pictures when I wake up, but I've seen people walk around the streets look the same as I do in the pictures and they're not airbrushing themselves except with makeup. HRT will surely clear up the rough spots of not being able to pass as female without makeup right now.

I understand that my expectations should be lower, but it's all I can do to distract myself from dysphoria as I have to wait to transition.

I wouldn't say that other people have said they're jealous of me if they really hadn't. These are actual posts on Susan's that I can quote. Would I be lying if I said they didn't flatter me? Yes. Am I particularly happy about fellow transgirls being jealous of me? No. It sucks that I'm being built up this way sometimes, and it also sucks that I see a lack of confidence in other people. I'm no model, not yet, if I even am one when I transition. I'm no role model until I transition. Nobody wants to hear advice from a pre-everything transgender. I don't feel better than anyone else.

Okay girly =) sorry if I seemed harsh, just wanted to make sure you were staying realistic. Best of luck with your modeling dream, I've dabbled in the industry before dysphoria brought me crashing down, it's alluring but a bit too glamorised. It's definitely not for people who have or had any problems with insecurity, can be painful. That said, hope to see you tell us of how your dream goes =D

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:19:33 PM
I know this now and I have the utmost sympathy for you...the time you grew up in was horrible. I can't imagine how it must have been. I am a bit confused, correct me if mistaken, how you were somehow oblivious on how to obtain hormones over the last 20 years, if it was societal backlash that first prevented you from it in the first place. I don't know the exact situation.

That's the thing though. If it seems that I'm trying to make my problems seem worse than anyone else's, that isn't it. Every Transgirl has problems. It's not fair to compare problems in this way, especially when the impact is subjective and dependent on how the person in question views it. Your whole life has prevented you from transitioning, and my whole life as well, despite the fact we're at different ages. So while the lifetimes are of different length, they're still lifetimes, and my perspective may not be the same as yours because I'm transitioning at a luckier time and therefore won't live as long as you have without transitioning. I am lucky in the sense that I can do this while I am in my teen years.

well to answer your question I had no idea about the way to do it except by hanging out with the prostitutes and buying through them. there was no internet 20 years ago. No information. What you have now is totally different than just 15 years ago'. It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was listed in the medical books as a mental disease.

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 07:32:20 PM
Okay girly =) sorry if I seemed harsh, just wanted to make sure you were staying realistic. Best of luck with your modeling dream, I've dabbled in the industry before dysphoria brought me crashing down, it's alluring but a bit too glamorised. It's definitely not for people who have or had any problems with insecurity, can be painful. That said, hope to see you tell us of how your dream goes =D

You weren't harsh, I needed that kick in the pants. I've been a huge bitch lately in my presentation of opinion, I really need to stop this. It's teenage angst and I'm at the height of my hormonal haywire age, haha.

You definitely look like a model in your avatar. I'm sorry the modeling career wasn't what you thought in the end =/

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 07:37:22 PM
well to answer your question I had no idea about the way to do it except by hanging out with the prostitutes and buying through them. there was no internet 20 years ago. No information. What you have now is totally different than just 15 years ago'. It wasn't that long ago that homosexuality was listed in the medical books as a mental disease.

What you're saying is totally right and I agree with you. I was just wondering. I'm glad you're able to be who you are now, at least you achieved that dream. Many people never even get to transition.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:30:05 PM
As I said in my last post, the 'airbrushing' is done with makeup apps and therefore will be similar to makeup in real life. I see people walking around in real life with makeup that is pretty much the same as the makeup I apply in the app.

It isn't done in an effort to make me physically look better so much as to make the wig blend in with the picture and therefore make it realistic.

In fact, I doubt anyone who hadn't already had the picture airbrushed and put a filter over everything could possibly make the result of a makeup app look realistic. When I transition, there are sure to be tons of makeup-less pics. I don't care whether the ones now are edited or not, the results are achievable through makeup, and I need that extra encouragement now. When I start seeing results on hormones, that's when I'll slow down the makeup + filter selfies. But as of now, extraordinary results through the app are helpful for soothing the wound of dysphoria that's ever-present right now.

I know exactly what app your are using. It's called ...

http://www.taaz.com

But I read you, what you are saying. It is however a little disingenuous to use beautifying tricks to misrepresent what HRT may or may not do for you.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:37:57 PM
You weren't harsh, I needed that kick in the pants. I've been a huge bitch lately in my presentation of opinion, I really need to stop this. It's teenage angst and I'm at the height of my hormonal haywire age, haha.

You definitely look like a model in your avatar. I'm sorry the modeling career wasn't what you thought in the end =/

That's not me in the avatar, that is Stav Strashko. =)

As far as the modeling thing goes, I intend on going back but I don't want to do male stuff. Supposedly androgyny "doesn't sell" and caters to a niche market that's not really viable, at least not in this country. I'm not a 1.87m blonde bombshell like Andrej Pejic either, so... Well, hopefully as a woman it will work out. Not counting on it but aaspiration make you alive .

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 07:40:23 PM
I know exactly what app your are using. It's called ...

http://www.taaz.com

But I read you what you are saying. It is however a little disingenuous to use beautifying tricks to misrepresent what HRT may or may not do for you.

Actually, that isn't the app. It's called ModiFace.

I'm not using beautifying tricks to represent what HRT will do for me, I'm using beautifying tricks to represent what makeup will do for me, which is entirely realistic. I have no idea what HRT will do for me, there's no way I can predict that. It would be impossible to make those changes in an app.

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 07:40:55 PM
That's not me in the avatar, that is Stav Strashko. =)

Ohh. What do you look like, then?

Older transitioners took so long, for the same reason why we definitely need to keep the "Before and After" thread.

Before the internet existed in its current state, the only information you ever got about trans people was from the mainstream media's overly-biased perspective, which basically painted all trans women as nothing more than being men who got surgery on their bodies to superficially resemble women. I believed this lie until I stumbled upon this very site's "Before and After" topic, and transition videos on Youtube.

Even as a kid in the late 90s and early-2000s, when information was readily available on SRS and the existence of trans people, they were still stigmatized as being freaks, having their transitions made to appear superficial and fake, and they never got a chance to speak for themselves and show the transition process for what it really is. The resources that we have now are truly amazing. Had they been available to all of us when we were teenagers, I guarantee you, a lot of us would have transitioned a LOT younger.

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:43:14 PM
Actually, that isn't the app. It's called ModiFace.

I'm not using beautifying tricks to represent what HRT will do for me, I'm using beautifying tricks to represent what makeup will do for me, which is entirely realistic. I have no idea what HRT will do for me, there's no way I can predict that. It would be impossible to make those changes in an app.

I see, but it's similar. I stand corrected.

To play devils advocate, you have no idea what HRT will do for you, but you are sure you'll become a model quality T-Girl?

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 07:45:49 PM
I see, but it's similar. I stand corrected.

To play devils advocate, you have no idea what HRT will do for you, but you are sure you'll become a model quality T-Girl?

With my feminine facial structure and baby face, plus the makeup I use in the app and a wig, I already look female there. Surely that will look better and more realistic in real life. Add in HRT, which surely can't make me look less feminine, and I'm confident that I'll be at least passable.

I already do have pictures from a photoshoot I've done in boymode if you want to see them. All angles of my face have been proclaimed as feminine from the most critical of people I've talked to, ones who had told others what their flaws were and only told me that my eyebrows were a flaw.

Not trying to brag here at all. I seriously don't know how to say this modestly. It's not like I'm the luckiest Transgirl genetically. Some can pass just as they are, without hormones. Andrej Pejic isn't even trans and he still looks beautiful as a girl.

chic, I think I've seen a few, but no need.

I really do wish you luck in all you do. Happy transitioning.  :)

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 07:43:35 PM
Ohh. What do you look like, then?

I'm pre-HRT, getting it prescribed on Tuesday if things are okay with my bloodwork. No makeup on the pictures, eyebrows are natural and left alone.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/qspaj9.jpg (http://oi60.tinypic.com/qspaj9.jpg)
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2uswmyb.jpg (http://oi57.tinypic.com/2uswmyb.jpg)
http://oi59.tinypic.com/xgidjn.jpg (http://oi59.tinypic.com/xgidjn.jpg) - lost the original to this one a while ago, I cropped it because I didn't want to seem like I had short hair (but I did, lol)...

Pictures were taken with the camera on my face because basically, I haven't got much light in the bathroom to take mirror pictures, so I have to use my room that has an alright lamp. Unflattering, I know.

Quote from: Evelyn K on April 17, 2014, 07:53:33 PM
chic, I think I've seen a few, but no need.

I really do wish you luck in all you do. Happy transitioning.  :)

Thank you!

I feel horrible now, I derailed the topic and caused a bit of a mini discussion. Blah. Like I said, I'm at a hormonal peak and you can't expect me to be at my best and most modest right now. How many teenagers are logical at this point in time? Haha

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 08:00:37 PM
I'm pre-HRT, getting it prescribed on Tuesday if things are okay with my bloodwork. No makeup on the pictures, eyebrows are natural and left alone.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/qspaj9.jpg (http://oi60.tinypic.com/qspaj9.jpg)
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2uswmyb.jpg (http://oi57.tinypic.com/2uswmyb.jpg)
http://oi59.tinypic.com/xgidjn.jpg (http://oi59.tinypic.com/xgidjn.jpg) - lost the original to this one a while ago, I cropped it because I didn't want to seem like I had short hair (but I did, lol)...

Pictures were taken with the camera on my face because basically, I haven't got much light in the bathroom to take mirror pictures, so I have to use my room that has an alright lamp. Unflattering, I know.

You're gorgeous! You're seriously gonna look so good as a female when you start presenting. You have all the right features for it. (:

Quote from: Chic on April 17, 2014, 08:02:14 PM
You're gorgeous! You're seriously gonna look so good as a female when you start presenting. You have all the right features for it. (:

Thanks girly! I took a look around for your unedited pics and I've to say that your baby cheeks are going to be a boon when on HRT, mine are kinda sunken =P

I know I'm chiming in late, but instead of calling it "Do I Pass?" maybe call it "What do you think?"? I've posted a few pictures there and got some positive feedback but then I realized passing is more than just a picture so I've tried to stay away.

I do like the "Before and After" thread. It's great (and encouraging) to see the transformations. I'm looking forward to posting my "Before and After" work ID after I transition at work.

Jane

I'm so glad someone finally said it.  I though I was the only one feeling this way. I was beginning to think I was in the twilight zone. Lol. Also this is why i barely commented on people's pictures in those threads. (unless they were clearly showing SOME progress.) I don't know the mental state of most of the people here that's why I disregard commenting on their pics. I don't want to be the one thing that pushes them overboard and into hurting themselves. I also agree with everything Evelyn K had said.. Espically what she said about some of the (mostly older) transitioners not dressing very age appropriate and getting false hope comments regarding their clocky choices in clothing. When in reality they would get many strange stares, laughs and possible humiliated if they walked outside looking the way some of them do in their picture post.

Quote from: PrincessPatience on April 17, 2014, 08:08:28 PMEspically what she said about some of the (mostly older) transitioners not dressing very age appropriate and getting false hope comments regarding their clocky choices in clothing. When in reality they would get many strange stares, laughs and possible humiliated if they walked outside looking the way some of them do in their picture post.

People are not their age. Age is just a number. They're just being themselves, I think they deserve to be happy, specially at this point in their lives... I'm sure a lot of them have suffered so much before that they just want to feel free and like themselves for once. They don't need to get crap on here too... Honesty, caution and sensibility is important when commenting on someone's appearence, like you said there's no way we know their mental state, but I think acceptance is also important. I'm sure they're not oblivious to certain stares or comments, and I hope they've the heart to not let it get to them.

I think age's a mental state. There's no "age appropriate" clothing. Perhaps to most of society there is but we should strive to do away with those absurd notions. Everything's interesting if you're interested in it, and I truly admire older transitioners who wear what they want.

I have only one problem with pictures like that and that's... well, not being able to bring my parents to read this forum. It's not that the users here are wrong, it's that they're conservative and wouldn't understand. There's a lot of helpful reading material here, but more flirty/provocative avatars would make me super uncomfortable if I knew they were browsing the site. I'd prefer it for those pics to be left in specific more "mature" threads, but, I'm a bit of a liberal so I also advocate that people shouldn't hold back from being themselves...

Hmmmm....dressing your age.

I suppose that I should throw out my Get Along Gang T shirts.

Hmmmm.....Nah.

I gave up on the 'Do I pass?' threads ages ago.. Why? I was told I wouldn't pass without having X, Y, and Z done.. Which was kinda funny, as my experiences in the real world were a polar opposite.

I tend to stay away from the do I pass threads.  A picture can only tell so much about passing.  How many of us look passable but shatter the illusion when we open our mouths? 

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 08:24:03 PM
I think age's a mental state. There's no "age appropriate" clothing. Perhaps to most of society there is but we should strive to do away with those absurd notions. Everything's interesting if you're interested in it, and I truly admire older transitioners who wear what they want.

Age is mental...to a degree.  But dressing inappropriately just to spite society is not helpful, whether trans or cis.  The overweight woman with the crop top and yoga pants isn't doing herself any favors.  But unfortunately the stakes are higher for us.  The fat chick is being judged by others, and she may not care.  But when trans girls look ridiculous, our whole community gets judged.

Should it be this way?  No.  But is it this way?  Definitely.

As a community, most of our successful members are are doing their best to blend in.  Even those who aren't necessarily in deep-stealth, aren't walking around with their "I'm a ->-bleeped-<-" t-shirt.  So society has a misconception about us, because their only experience is when they see the dude in a dress on Jerry Springer.

We're kind of in a no-win situation.  Transitioners are going through an awkward phase, and there's no way around it.  Passing just takes time for most of us.  But that's when society sees us, and it reinforces the stereotypes in their mind.  This is why I don't care for the advice that tells trans girls not to worry about what others think and just be ourselves.  I wish we had that kind of freedom, but the world just doesn't work that way.

Just throwing it out there, but I think there should be a youtube/video thread where we can all get to know eachothers voices and real personalities, as opposed to hiding behind specific angles and photoshop/instagram filters. And instead of calling it 'Do I Pass' simply call in 'MTF Progress Vlogs' or something. One thing that a real support group would have over this group is a level of honesty which comes from reality, you can't take 100 photos and post 1 of them, hoping for a wave of cheers that you look feminine, if you simply have to record a video :/ and if it makes you uncomfortable, you could avoid posting, but I actually think it'd be much more useful than the current Do I Pass thread.

That being said, the Before and After thread is amazing, and part of the reason (along with youtube videos, mostly) that I stopped questioning whether I wanted to transition or not. 

Quote from: Nattie on April 17, 2014, 10:24:18 PM
Just throwing it out there, but I think there should be a youtube/video thread where we can all get to know eachothers voices and real personalities, as opposed to hiding behind specific angles and photoshop/instagram filters. And instead of calling it 'Do I Pass' simply call in 'MTF Progress Vlogs' or something. One thing that a real support group would have over this group is a level of honesty which comes from reality, you can't take 100 photos and post 1 of them, hoping for a wave of cheers that you look feminine, if you simply have to record a video :/ and if it makes you uncomfortable, you could avoid posting, but I actually think it'd be much more useful than the current Do I Pass thread.

That being said, the Before and After thread is amazing, and part of the reason (along with youtube videos, mostly) that I stopped questioning whether I wanted to transition or not.

I would like this idea if I didn't worry about creepers... Idk, something about everything being permanent + videos...

Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 10:34:33 PM
I would like this idea if I didn't worry about creepers... Idk, something about everything being permanent + videos...

The picture and videos are all embedded links. If you delete the sources a week (or more or less) later no one can see them anymore. (Unless someone records them and reposts them elsewhere)

Quote from: Mermaid on April 17, 2014, 08:24:03 PM
People are not their age. Age is just a number.

Or at least dress appropriate to the age people are able to see. Too big of a contrast and you'll be snarked.

Also, why even try to diminish what was originally said about dressing your age anyway? It's this type of evading that happens around these parts that just comes off sounding like euphemistic horse sh*t.

Quote from: Nattie on April 17, 2014, 10:24:18 PM
That being said, the Before and After thread is amazing, and part of the reason (along with youtube videos, mostly) that I stopped questioning whether I wanted to transition or not.

Same here.  The transition videos, and certain people on YouTube made me realize that I could actually pull this off.

At the same time, the not-so-successful YouTub-ers serve as a cautionary tale...and good motivation to get my sh*t together.

Quote from: xponentialshift on April 17, 2014, 10:36:53 PM
The picture and videos are all embedded links. If you delete the sources a week (or more or less) later no one can see them anymore. (Unless someone records them and reposts them elsewhere)

Yah but people do save them

True, this forum is very accessible. I'm used to forums that are niche and out of the way, whereas I feel a little exposed on this forum simply because any transgendered search leads, eventually, to here. I'd suggest this is why we don't have more members posting images/videos/et cetera of themselves. You could probably fix that by making the forum more private somehow (needing a membership to read posts) but I suppose that'd defeat the purpose of the forum a little, wouldn't it?

Yup.

It is the internets. Post at your own risk.

Wait...are you telling me the internet isn't private?

Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:26:51 PM
Wait...are you telling me the internet isn't private?

Oh sugar, I am so sorry you had to hear this from me.

Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:26:51 PM
Wait...are you telling me the internet isn't private?

Google my name and see what happens. ;)

Hi,

All i would say is get to know me as a person , i doubt youll ever say i pass or blend in i dont try or wont to because i know i never will.

why the hell would i mask my face with a lot of makeup to show how stupid i'd look . i dont need to any way. people see me as i am no makeup and no hair,

those who know  me well over a 1000 members in our groups dont have an issue so why the hell should i. its that simple, and who would i fool any way ,

My photos are world wide, as every one see's me ,  i or my friends or Jos can take a photo of myself and what they see so will every one no cooking the photo or reworking them ,

now voice  same thing what you hear is just me as i normally talk to people,

I work with what i have and am im not trying to pass as someone who im not ,
so...... its ether you accept me or you dont again its that simple,

...noeleena...

I said the truth once. My post was removed and I had a warning.

GG huh?

I think the thread needs a reality check with a soft touch

My advice is to split the passing threads into two distinct threads: "Be harsh and tell it like it is!" and "Compliments, please!".

Separate threads would clarify posters' intentions and ease responders' internal conflict between being cheerleading and being "honest".

Quote from: Mia Jennell (Gwynne) on April 18, 2014, 01:40:41 PM
My advice is to split the passing threads into two distinct threads: "Be harsh and tell it like it is!" and "Compliments, please!".

Separate threads would clarify posters' intentions and ease responders' internal conflict between being cheerleading and being "honest".

I think the You Look Fabulous thread is for compliments only.

Quote from: Tori on April 18, 2014, 02:13:36 PM
I think the You Look Fabulous thread is for compliments only.

Good point, but it tends to be where more experienced transitioners post.

I certainly shy from the do I pass thread. I do not post in it. Have occasionally got a few good tips in there tough from the bravery of others.

I do enjoy being told I look fab from time to time, and the before and after thread is inspirational gold.

Dunno how many photo threads we really need.

is there really a need to tell someone hypothetically whether they're going to look female or not. I don't know to base your transition on someone else's guess is kind of questionable. If your all ready on HRT I guess it would be nice to get some objective opinion to whether your progressing or not.

Quote from: stephaniec on April 18, 2014, 04:43:30 PM
is there really a need to tell someone hypothetically whether they're going to look female or not. I don't know to base your transition on someone else's guess is kind of questionable. If your all ready on HRT I guess it would be nice to get some objective opinion to whether your progressing or not.

I agree. I find the "passing" aspect of the passing threads very frustrating.

Asking for advice is one thing. Asking people to foretell the future is another.

I've never posted in the "Do I Pass?" thread, and only once in the 'You Look Fabulous", but the "Before and After" several times, simply because my change has been gigantic and I've wanted new girls to see what's possible. I know I pass without a doubt, but don't know how I did in the beginning, even though I've been told I did. Passing is a package deal, though. You have to pass in the way you think, behave, speak, walk and pretty much everything else. Men and women are like two different species, with little in common. The proof is in real life and that's it. i worry about girls thinking they pass when they don't. God bless, Mira

Quote from: Miranda Catherine on April 19, 2014, 02:54:22 AM
I've never posted in the "Do I Pass?" thread, and only once in the 'You Look Fabulous", but the "Before and After" several times, simply because my change has been gigantic and I've wanted new girls to see what's possible. I know I pass without a doubt, but don't know how I did in the beginning, even though I've been told I did. Passing is a package deal, though. You have to pass in the way you think, behave, speak, walk and pretty much everything else. Men and women are like two different species, with little in common. The proof is in real life and that's it. i worry about girls thinking they pass when they don't. God bless, Mira

True dat!!! All of it!

I don't see an issue with the thread, to be honest. As long as everyone keeps the criticism constructive then it should be fine. Telling someone they are hideous and should never go out due to fear of being beat up is not my way of doing things.

If you for whatever reason are THAT concerned then just send the person a private message and explain your "thoughts" to them. I don't believe in humiliation but I do believe in positivity and the saying that everyone is beautiful in their own way. Let's face it, MOST people who post in the "can I pass" thread are already insecure enough as it is and are looking for some words of encouragement to boost their morale or whatever. Again, you can be honest with someone without being completely cruel about it. The world is mean enough we should be able to come together on here and uplift one another in a positive way, not scare each other even more. What is "passable" to some may not be for others and this ridiculous idea that some of us should look a "certain" way is pure foolishness.

So yes.....you can give honest criticism that isn't cruel, it's all in how you say it. I tell most people on here that they look great because I mean it and not because I'm trying to fill their head with delusions of grandeur.

Quote from: Mia Jennell (Gwynne) on April 18, 2014, 05:12:09 PM
I agree. I find the "passing" aspect of the passing threads very frustrating.

Asking for advice is one thing. Asking people to foretell the future is another.

Kia Ora MJ(G)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc&feature=kp

Metta Anatta :)

I had a whole other repsonses but I deleted it, and I'll just say get rid of the Do I Pass thread its very harmful, and keep the others. Why is it harmful? Well, if someone gets 100 comments about how well they passed in ONE pic, and maybe they did, now they might go out on top of the world and get called ->-bleeped-<-, be stared at, or just be treated like crap. Now, they vanish, stop posting and waste their whole life. I would call that bad and I would bet it has happened. Oh you look so great. They go out. Get hit with the reality stick and whammo, no more hormones. But hey, if they stuck with it for 18 months, they woulda pass and reached the dream. So, I consider it harmful, but that's just me and I'm on top of the fraking world right now...

I was just telling my BF today about how my life sucks in many ways but no matter what, I achieved my dreams this last year, and that wasn't easy nor does it not count for anything. He's been there through my whole transtion bascially and prolly wouldn't (no def wouldn't have had sex with me then) but yesterday he sure made me moan with all nine and half inches of himself all up in me. He tossed me around like a rag doll. Dream achieved. Bang. Sorry UI had to say that. Yum. MOOOOANNNN. HMM./

I haven't had time to read all 6 pages of responses so may be repeating what someone else said.

I think that people are often too worried about hurting feelings to give an honest response & that can be a negative if someone is told they pass & then get clocked as soon as they step outdoors.

Maybe the solution is to have 2 "Do I pass" threads, 1 for honest answers & 1 for ego stroking nice answers  :D

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 02:48:36 PM
You post at your own risk, even on a support site.

Imagine being a woman over 25 and hearing some of the things said around here about us from time to time.

The internets can take some thick skin to handle, just like real life.

If you only wish to confirm your own beliefs, do not ask anyone else questions.

This. If you wish to post and know you can handle it then cool. I cant handle it. I would crack. I posted in a thread like that once and wouldnt dare look at the response. Go at ur own risk. Know yourself.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 19, 2014, 07:43:20 PM
Well, if someone gets 100 comments about how well they passed in ONE pic, and maybe they did, now they might go out on top of the world and get called ->-bleeped-<-, be stared at, or just be treated like crap. Now, they vanish, stop posting and waste their whole life. I would call that bad and I would bet it has happened. Oh you look so great. They go out. Get hit with the reality stick and whammo, no more hormones. But hey, if they stuck with it for 18 months, they woulda pass and reached the dream.

I think this is a great point.  There is a certain relief that comes with self acceptance, followed by nervous excitement as you start to venture out into the world.  But with a couple of bad experiences, it would be very easy to revert to hiding our true selves -- something most of us did for a very long time.

This is one reason I generally don't agree with the "passing doesn't matter" crowd.  Most of us want desperately to blend in and be perceived as our desired gender.  For some people it works to ignore societal conventions and just be yourself.  But for most of us, we have a lot of work to do to find ourselves -- or more appropriately, to lose our old selves.

Quote from: Jayne on April 19, 2014, 08:03:41 PM
I haven't had time to read all 6 pages of responses so may be repeating what someone else said.

I think that people are often too worried about hurting feelings to give an honest response & that can be a negative if someone is told they pass & then get clocked as soon as they step outdoors.

Maybe the solution is to have 2 "Do I pass" threads, 1 for honest answers & 1 for ego stroking nice answers  :D

We have those.

:)

They are already pinned, and u look fab.

I hate explaining your jokes.

As for me, though I enjoy reading them and seeing the photos I tend not to post too much on the "Do I Pass" threads. I just have a bad habit of being bluntly honest and am afraid of hurting any feelings. In addition I agree with another poster who pointed out that in most photo's we only see faces. To truly give an honest opinion we need to see a full body shot. And here's why I say this:
      I've passed for the last 5 years everywhere I go even before hrt, however I know the reason I pass so well is because of my feminine body shape & tiny build (though my bewbs are helping now too I know, lol). I certainly don't pass because of my face. Though I have long straight black hair, a small oval face and a narrow chin my nose is way too big, my eyebrows are too close to my eyesockets, there's my scars from my accident on my left jawline which, like the rest of my face is too angular. So, if I were to post a head/shoulder shot in one of the "Do I Pass" threads and receive comments like:  "oh you go girl," "I think you pass very well," "Oh your all girl honey," etc., etc. (you get the idea), I'd know those of you who  posted those kind words were just being polite and didn't want to hurt my feelings.

I've only been on a full transition dose of hrt for 3 months, and almost 3 weeks. And, while it's quite possible my hrt may yet fill my face in a little and make it more feminine looking (I certainly hope and pray it does) at this point in my transition there's no point in my posting headshots asking if I pass, even though I do pass every day but again, I know I pass because of my body, and how I carry myself rather than how my face looks.

I'm going to post photo's in the "Before and After" thread and change my Avatar to a photo after my 6 month mark on hrt just so those of you who've read my posts know who your talking to. But to post photo's in the "Do I Pass" threads for me would be in a sense, useless because I already know I do pass. And on a rare whim if I did post photo's in those threads they'd be full body shots, not just headshots, and hopefully you girls would give me honest opinions so I'd know how to improve my look.

As for do I  think the "Do I Pass" threads are harmful? -Certainly not. I think it would do a disservice to this site to remove them. I say this because some of us girls do post honest opinions with suggestions on how/where improvements can be made which may help a lot of girls. We're all different in how we see and perceive things.

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Allyda on April 20, 2014, 03:18:43 PM
As for me, though I enjoy reading them and seeing the photos I tend not to post too much on the "Do I Pass" threads. I just have a bad habit of being bluntly honest and am afraid of hurting any feelings. In addition I agree with another poster who pointed out that in most photo's we only see faces. To truly give an honest opinion we need to see a full body shot. And here's why I say this:
      I've passed for the last 5 years everywhere I go even before hrt, however I know the reason I pass so well is because of my feminine body shape & tiny build (though my bewbs are helping now too I know, lol). I certainly don't pass because of my face. Though I have long straight black hair, a small oval face and a narrow chin my nose is way too big, my eyebrows are too close to my eyesockets, there's my scars from my accident on my left jawline which, like the rest of my face is too angular. So, if I were to post a head/shoulder shot in one of the "Do I Pass" threads and receive comments like:  "oh you go girl," "I think you pass very well," "Oh your all girl honey," etc., etc. (you get the idea), I'd know those of you who  posted those kind words were just being polite and didn't want to hurt my feelings.

I've only been on a full transition dose of hrt for 3 months, and almost 3 weeks. And, while it's quite possible my hrt may yet fill my face in a little and make it more feminine looking (I certainly hope and pray it does) at this point in my transition there's no point in my posting headshots asking if I pass, even though I do pass every day but again, I know I pass because of my body, and how I carry myself rather than how my face looks.

I'm going to post photo's in the "Before and After" thread and change my Avatar to a photo after my 6 month mark on hrt just so those of you who've read my posts know who your talking to. But to post photo's in the "Do I Pass" threads for me would be in a sense, useless because I already know I do pass. And on a rare whim if I did post photo's in those threads they'd be full body shots, not just headshots, and hopefully you girls would give me honest opinions so I'd know how to improve my look.

As for do I  think the "Do I Pass" threads are harmful? -Certainly not. I think it would do a disservice to this site to remove them. I say this because some of us girls do post honest opinions with suggestions on how/where improvements can be made which may help a lot of girls. We're all different in how we see and perceive things.

Ally :icon_flower:

We have the opposite predicament. I have a feminine face that will be great for HRT and yet I have a not-so-feminine build. Yet you have the feminine build and the, in your opinion, not as passable face

That is true. The pass thread just focuses on your face but body also makes a big difference. And you can't see the proportions right in pics. :) I think it is a lot more of a challenge to pass if you have a large body probably. But if you have a small body and especially a small head as well then people won't notice some coarse facial features too much. :)

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 19, 2014, 07:43:20 PM
I had a whole other repsonses but I deleted it, and I'll just say get rid of the Do I Pass thread its very harmful, and keep the others. Why is it harmful? Well, if someone gets 100 comments about how well they passed in ONE pic, and maybe they did, now they might go out on top of the world and get called ->-bleeped-<-, be stared at, or just be treated like crap. Now, they vanish, stop posting and waste their whole life. I would call that bad and I would bet it has happened. Oh you look so great. They go out. Get hit with the reality stick and whammo, no more hormones. But hey, if they stuck with it for 18 months, they woulda pass and reached the dream. So, I consider it harmful, but that's just me and I'm on top of the fraking world right now...

while what you say at the top can be true, it doesn't have to be either.  As you know, I kind of had that sort of situation and it hurt really badly for someone as fragile as me to go through that, but I survived.  Ultimately, I'm not going to let some jerks control my life, even those I have done just that for so long and still do to a degree.  I guess if you can't survive that one moment, then you may not survive transitioning either.  It was lesson for me that day and it made me do a lot of soul searching after I absorbed the pain and got through my own self abuse.  It's something that taught me that I will get to where I want to be, but maybe I'm not there yet despite hearing from people in life and on here that I "can" pass.  Doesn't mean I won't get there in time even if I do feel hopeless a lot of the time.  Plus, you never know how someone else is going to take or view things.  we see things differenlty and through our own lens.  I don't feel I come close to passing, yet I believe all the positive comments I was getting on all my pics were truthful even if they sided on the positive aspect of things. Perspective differs from person to person and there is only so much to judge from a photo. 

I guess that while there is potential harm that can happen and people should be honest with a compassionate angle, that doesn't mean that these threads are at fault.  People should know there is more to this than being viewed on a forum.  And honestly, that confidence boast was a good thing for someone like me who figuratively sees a monster when looking at myself.  While I may cry about my body issues and appearance, to know that there are a lot of people out there that see it differently makes me feel a little more hopeful.  That hope and the inspiration from others can be a very big positive thing.   For some, these sort of before and after like threads help them decide that transition is actually possible and not a fantasy.  Why erase the good because of the potential that some may read too much into things?  there are pros and cons, but I think removing the thread would be a poor choice. 

If you want the honest to god truth about if you pass or not, get out of the house and live your life. We're all supportive here, sure, but strangers that you interact with just doing your day to day things are one of the best indicators you could have. be confidant in who you are and be true to yourself. That's all anyone could ever really ask for.

THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

QuoteI do not lie at all with my opinions.

That's good and i can't speak for everyone but it is surely appreciated by me :).

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

Please don't take any comments as a personal remark against you or the site.  I have no doubt you care about the people here and want to help as best as you know how.  If you can't do that at times, it's not your fault.  You can only do so much.

In any case, even if people tell the truth as they see it, they can only share their own perspective.  They can't know what other's will see, know what someone will face and everything they've faced before.  All these things play a role in one's passing or how they see themselves or their situation.  Keep that in mind as perspective is really an idividual thing and it's impossible for any of us to guess someone elses situation, how it will turn out or what they need without real life interaction.  We do the best we can do from here.  Sometimes that falls short.  And that's okay because you had good intentions and tried to help. 

Again, passing is a bit subjective.  To some on here and in life, I do pass.  To others and myself, I don't.  Who is right and who is wrong?  I guess no one really is as it interpretation differs from each person.  That doesn't make this thread harmful.  It's just that there is only so much someone can say about someone elses passing potential over a forum.  And hell, we are all a tad biased in some way given our transgender status.  Separating that is a tad difficult. 

I don't really understand what the point of this thread was, when it was overwhelmingly decided that the passing thread was negative, and in the very least it should be rebranded, and yet shortly after that was discovered version 4 of the passing thread went live.  ::)

Besides, saying that people are outright lying might be a bit strong, maybe being a bit generous in their critiques, or flat out ignoring people, is a better way to phrase it.

People can be as honest as they want in the threads...But cameras lie. There is no substitute for how you're treated by the general public.

I think part of the problem is that when someone is asking if they pass,they don't always MEAN the thing to different people. I see the question along the same lines as this one "Does this dress make me look fat?" For some it really means "Am I fat or getting fat?" For others it means "Does this dress flatter my figure?"  And if the husband answers yes does it mean that the women is ACTUALLY FAT? A size 12 woman that is NOT fat that buys a dress that is closer in size to a size 10 is NOT going to fit very well in it.

This is my opinion only but I think some are asking if they are passable enough to be fine with it and others are asking Am i drop dead beautiful. I think the question itself is part of the problem. If the question is NOT defined well enough the answer may cause all kinds of problems and the answer NOT ALWAYS meant that way.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

Jessica I sympathize with you and know how you feel. When I first read this thread and one other that reeeeaaally bothered me (the one where the OP thought we don't really care) I was very offended. I of course would know if/when I post a photo on this site I will get the truth from you. I've read alot of your posts and have felt nothing but pure honesty coming through your words. There are a few other girls like you on here who would give me the truth along with suggestions on how I can improve my look. Please don't take anything in my reply as offensive for it certainly was not directed toward you. If you notice, the examples I gave for replies are nothing like what you would give. I truly value your opinions and after my 6 month mark I'll be counting on yours and a few other girls's advice on how I can improve my facial features.

Hugs, :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on April 21, 2014, 05:35:41 AM
People can be as honest as they want in the threads...But cameras lie. There is no substitute for how you're treated by the general public.

Now this is very true. I've seen photo's of alot of people in general that portray a person very different than how they look in person.

Quote from: Chic on April 20, 2014, 03:21:34 PM
We have the opposite predicament. I have a feminine face that will be great for HRT and yet I have a not-so-feminine build. Yet you have the feminine build and the, in your opinion, not as passable face

Kinda weird huh? However hrt will go along way to reshape your body by redistributing muscle and fat to give you a more feminine shape. As for me, being xxy I've always had a feminine body shape which my hrt is really improving even after the short time I've been on my full transition dose. I just hope my face starts seeing improvement soon. Then again, my facial flaws I perceive are IMO, and quite a few people tell me I'm overreacting or being overcritical of myself and I need to give my hrt more time, which I fully intend to do before considering any cosmetic surgeries.

Chic, once you start your hrt and give it a little time you'll be amazed at the changes in you both inside and out -especially at your young age.

Hugs, :icon_hug: :icon_hug:

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Kara Jayde on April 21, 2014, 01:07:08 AM
I don't really understand what the point of this thread was, when it was overwhelmingly decided that the passing thread was negative, and in the very least it should be rebranded, and yet shortly after that was discovered version 4 of the passing thread went live.  ::)

Besides, saying that people are outright lying might be a bit strong, maybe being a bit generous in their critiques, or flat out ignoring people, is a better way to phrase it.

For years, there have been a lot of complaints that nobody's honest in the threads and concerns it does more harm than good. Like I said, I don't typically read these threads unless there's a complaint. So, this was a way to find out what you all thought. I'm still going through all the comments.

The thread in question is usually automatically replaced by mods once it reaches a certain number of posts.
Maybe the wording was a bit strong, 'but 'lying' has been a word used in the complaints.
I've just realized that the thread may have unintentionally caused hurt feelings, and I'm sorry about that. That was not intended. I'm not mtf, so I can only go by what people are telling me. I just didn't want to leave a feature up if it was seen as useless or harmful.

EDIT: For what it's worth, the few times I have commented in these threads, I was as honest as I could be. But as has been stated, a picture only says so much. As stated, there may be someone who passes awesomely with a gorgeous female face in a picture. But other features give them away on the street. Or the opposite, someone who doesn't look that passable in a static one dimensional image. But does pass well on the street.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

I understand. And believe me this thread was never intended to cause hurt feelings. Sometimes I can be a little blunt with wording. But there have been a ton of complaints over the years, and a couple serious ones lately. It was important to address it. The idea that someone could go out with false expectations and face danger is very concerning to me. I'm still reading all the comments and suggestions.

given the nature of the subject and environment of like minded folks these threads are nothing other then feel good eye candy. and why not, as transition brings so much negative that a bit of delusional goodness is good for the heart.
However, the only productive way of telling someone they are visually indistinguishable from a GG is a lengthy video with sound, movement and all inclusive view, especially side view of the face.
Still pictures and front only view do nothing as to establish character of gender.
And once more, passability is such a wrong term, as it points out the fake nature of the being. To Pass as something is to be viewed as that something even though the one passing isn't it!

I Pass as a German, it is obvious that I am not a German, as if I would be German I wouldn't pass, but simply be!!!

We also need to remember this is based opinions and NOT ALWAYS fact. Some who give their opinions also only believe that UNLESS you look like a Cover Girl model you do not pass.

Hi,

But the question is maybe : do the truth exist ? and just one truth exist ?
The truth is an illusion, isn't it ? For the same thing, it exists some point of views, so different truths. And all are right !
The same person can be a wonderful person and the oposite. Depend who look. And finally, the person is the same.
There is a big part of the mind too : I tell you : you are really passing... ok but I you want to believe that you don't...
Another way is to look at on the life, on the streets biologic women who seem so masculine, no ?
Of course, if you do all to be masculine... no miracle.
Now, I understand the initial question because I think that my face is too much masculine... and hard to me. But If from now, I think that my face is feminine... probably, more changes I think become.
Take care of yourself,
Hannah

Quote from: Allyda on April 21, 2014, 07:48:20 AM
Please don't take anything in my reply as offensive for it certainly was not directed toward you.

I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though. :)

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though. :)

Don't take this the wrong way and it's not directed at anyone but the thing with older members is they always say "passing is a state of mind" or something. That's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But, most of the older transtioners have lived full successful lives as men and had kids and everything else. For a younger member, who never had a family or kids, but desperately wants them, even if it's adoption, guess what? Passing matters big time. Guys will date and have sex with a trans woman. I'm living proof. But, you have to pass. In order to get a job, you have to pass. I don't make these rules and I certainly don't enforce them, but that's the way it is. People in society will give a "pass" hehehe to trans women who pass and are pretty and say "well, look at her, she should have transitioned. But, those other people..." I know because I have encountered it. A LOT. It's privilege. The other thing that passing well for a younger member does is it allows her to have a more laid back, care free happy attitutude without constant fear which blossoms into self confidence. And that is sexy. This is more of just an explanation of feelings and thoughts about this thread and the whole topic of passing in general and not meant to put anyone down or say you shouldnt transition if you dont pass. i think you should transtion for one reason: you need to. All else be damned. xoxxo

EDIT: But also people need to remember transtion takes time. This isn't a six month or year long process. yeah some pass faster than others because of where they started. But, given enought time on hormones and the right presentation and attitute, I believe most will "pass" (gawd, im starrting to hate that word" in time.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though. :)

I just would like to apologize off hand if my comments seem to portray that view.  I'm throwing myself out there because I think they can do that indirectly and can be part of that problem. For me, looks are very important and help me measure my progress.   It's hard to explain but passing is big part of my transition and how I see myself.  It's not healthy or productive to place so much emphasis in looks, but that's part of my dysphoria and I suppose it's my path.  Without ever having the abilityy to pass, I would have to question my future existence.

Nontheless, there are other takes on this and passing doesn't have to be important for everyone.  We all have different priorities and there is no right or wrong path.  There are millions of ways to transition and time frames to take things on.  If someone doesn't pass physically and they are happy, then that's awesome.  Really it's all about finding out your own comfort levels and seeking for happiness.  It's just some of us realize we won't be happy without being able to blend.  Those that don't care about that have my complete respect, it's just not for me.  I respect your view Jess, but it's hard for me to personally apply that to myself even though I think that's a valid perspective to have.

In any case, I wanted to clarify because I don't want to be hurting any people in the process when I talk about the importance of passing for me.  What's important for me doesn't have to be important for everyone.  It's very possible for some to have a succesful transition without obbsessing over looks.  Probably the healthier way to be in reality. 

I honestly feel that passing thread should be deleted. If a member really wants to be judged on whether they pass or not then they can always create a thread for it. And if the thread must exist then at the very least it should be private, only available for members of the site.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 03:25:16 PM
Don't take this the wrong way and it's not directed at anyone but the thing with older members is they always say "passing is a state of mind" or something. That's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But, most of the older transtioners have lived full successful lives as men and had kids and everything else. For a younger member, who never had a family or kids, but desperately wants them, even if it's adoption, guess what? Passing matters big time. Guys will date and have sex with a trans woman. I'm living proof. But, you have to pass. In order to get a job, you have to pass. I don't make these rules and I certainly don't enforce them, but that's the way it is. People in society will give a "pass" hehehe to trans women who pass and are pretty and say "well, look at her, she should have transitioned. But, those other people..." I know because I have encountered it. A LOT. It's privilege. The other thing that passing well for a younger member does is it allows her to have a more laid back, care free happy attitutude without constant fear which blossoms into self confidence. And that is sexy. This is more of just an explanation of feelings and thoughts about this thread and the whole topic of passing in general and not meant to put anyone down or say you shouldnt transition if you dont pass. i think you should transtion for one reason: you need to. All else be damned. xoxxo

EDIT: But also people need to remember transtion takes time. This isn't a six month or year long process. yeah some pass faster than others because of where they started. But, given enought time on hormones and the right presentation and attitute, I believe most will "pass" (gawd, im starrting to hate that word" in time.

Joanna, I like you and read alot of your posts so don't get me wrong when I say this, and please understand I'm not directing this at you: The assumption that we older girls all had productive lives is inaccurate. I can use my life as an example. You know that "in between" stage we all girls go through during transition? Hmmm? Well as you may or may not know I have Klinefelter's Syndrome, meaning I'm xxy. As you've undoubtably read in some of my other posts, I've known I was a girl since early childhood. I always looked like a little girl as a kid, through adolescence, and as an adult, and I lived that "in between" stage all my adult life. Successful? HA!! I won't repeat my other posts here but my entire adult life up until 5 years ago has been a catastrophe! I've literally been to hell and back to get to where I am now. Yes, I did make good money here and there but it was sporadic at best, work 3 times harder and longer than my fellow employees to prove my worth all the while hearing the snickering and questioning whether I was a girl, a boy, or even both, also the name calling.

And never mind me what about our fellow older sisters that have lost their family and everything after coming out to them. No, I believe we older girls go through many of the same issues our younger sisters do sometimes in a different context but the base self doubt, depressions, needs, emotions, and wanting so bad to just be a normal girl/woman are the same whether your 18 or 78. And last, We transition for the same reason/s: To live happy as ourselves and end the misery of the false facade we can no longer maintain.

As I said Joanna I'm not directing this at you, I enjoy reading your posts, -your that good kind of a little crazy that brings a smile to my face more often than not. I'm only directing this the assumption. Oh and one last thing, some of we older ladies can be drop dead sizzling hot!!

Ally :icon_flower:

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on April 21, 2014, 05:50:18 PM
I honestly feel that passing thread should be deleted. If a member really wants to be judged on whether they pass or not then they can always create a thread for it. And if the thread must exist then at the very least it should be private, only available for members of the site.

As one who doesn't pass for anything other than a weird androgynous person I can assure you all that passing or not passing has a lot more to do with your own self esteem than how you look or act. I think we are all subject to a certain amount of self delusion at times, but the real pass or no pass thing has nothing to do with how young or how attractive one is, but more about how one projects their own self esteem to those who may be watching. I had a beautiful MtF girlfriend who lived her life in terror thinking that people are watching her and whispering and pointing at her, it ruined her life. Maybe because I'm an older adult and already know that I don't pass that I project a self esteem that really doesn't give a rats ass what others think. I'm not me to please others anyway. So the pass threads are good in that they can possibly build self esteem and correct problems based on the advice of others, but they do create false expectations because there's always a segment of society that can and will read trans folks.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though. :)

Jessica,

I must respectfully say "WHAT?!?!" 

I want to look great.  I guess I'm shallow but I didn't lose over 90 lbs because I was secure.  It's quite the opposite.  I am totally insecure.  I'm 6'1" with a 36" inseam, killer legs, great ass, large breasts and a face like a Neanderthal. I'm not going to Dr Z to look OK. I'm going to Dr Z to look fantastic.  I spent 12 years in college and it's been 22 years at the laboratory bench, running or directing studies. Then on weekends, I rebuilt my resort.  I paid for what I have with time, sweat, blood and missed fun.  I didn't have a full life as a man, I had in excess of 60 hours a week of work, every week and I started at 12. I didn't even take a vacation until I was over 40.

I could not have children but my wife did.  Her kids are now set.  The grandkids are now set.  Heck, the freaking dog is set. 

As much as possible, I want to live at least part of the life I missed while in denial; I'm going to spend some of the money I have saved.  And my wife, who is looking forward to doing this with me, is finally getting the partner she deserved.

Jessica, I have admired your posts for a long time.  You are wonderful and I am happy that you are a moderator. I too, will be here for a long while. I will help others as best I can both here and where I live. Yet, I am going to play more. Hiding in denial and in my work for 30 years has left a big hole that needs to be filled.  I do intend on filling it.

Hugs,

Jen

I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.   

DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

It seems to me that there are three key elements for a person to pass:  Looks, Mannerisms and Confidence and there is a certain amount of each one that must be met or there is failure.   However, at least one of those three elements must be good or even very good.  It's all a trade off thing.

Looks is the shape and over all perceived femaleness of the body.  I look at a lot of women; all have some "female" attributes.  A person needs a few of the attributes to pass.  Got short hair and large breasts??  Female!  Flat chest but large hips?  Female!  There has to be enough of a package the overall effect is female.  Anything beyond that minimum can help offset poor confidence or poor mannerisms.

Mannerisms are the way one walks, talks, stands, uses hand gestures, smiles etc.  They are everything we do other than stand perfectly still.  If one walks female but smiles male? Female.  If one has feminine hand gestures but talks a little dusky?  Female.  If they stand legs spread apart, where are the hands??  Mannerisms is a great place to fail initially.  Be around women and pick up what suits you.  They are also a great place to aid if the look is weak or there is a lack of confidence.

Confidence is the belief in self.  If you don't think you are a woman then you will fail.  If you remotely have the looks and almost have some female mannerisms but a boat load of confidence, you will pass.

My thoughts

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

You can have all the looks in the world, but with little confidence, you are never going to pass.. On the flip side, if your passability is marginal, as mine is, confidence will get you across the line. But then, I have a somewhat strange attitude to life and being trans. I'm a woman, a mother, a grandmother, a friend, a lover. You'll notice I don't mention anything about being trans.. It's not a label I wear - not anywhere but here. I own who I am 100%.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Don't apologize, you said nothing wrong or hurtful.  I'm picking people's brains cause I imagine other people have more direct experience to share what they've learned by actually attempting to pass.

I see what you mean.  Confidence is important and it's been one of the things holding me back in many ways.  I have no doubt that it can help reinforce things and communicate what you are looking to show.  It's just that I think appearance plays a big role too.  For example, you may be very confident, but the changes to your appearance matter too.  For example, you've shown your own before and after pick.  Confidence and happiness may have helped shape you new life style, but all of the physical changes mattered too in your being embraced as Jessica, right?  I guess I would just assume it's a mixture of things and they aren't exlusive.  Still, I feel like apperance without confidence can work too.  For the most part, people gender with their eyes and ears.  They intpret the person overall by their character, mannerisms and behavior.  At least, that's what I would think. 

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 21, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
You can have all the looks in the world, but with little confidence, you are never going to pass.. On the flip side, if your passability is marginal, as mine is, confidence will get you across the line. But then, I have a somewhat strange attitude to life and being trans. I'm a woman, a mother, a grandmother, a friend, a lover. You'll notice I don't mention anything about being trans.. It's not a label I wear - not anywhere but here. I own who I am 100%.

But aren't there plenty of cis women without confidence that pass?  I definetly think confidence is important to acquire and I realize I need more it, but I've seen cis women with anxiety problems and poor self esteem and it doesn't out them.  Sorry, I'm being a pain, it's just confusing to me.  Maybe I will only really understand these views when I experience more.

Quote from: JLT1 on April 21, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
It seems to me that there are three key elements for a person to pass:  Looks, Mannerisms and Confidence and there is a certain amount of each one that must be met or there is failure.   However, at least one of those three elements must be good or even very good.  It's all a trade off thing.

Looks is the shape and over all perceived femaleness of the body.  I look at a lot of women; all have some "female" attributes.  A person needs a few of the attributes to pass.  Got short hair and large breasts??  Female!  Flat chest but large hips?  Female!  There has to be enough of a package the overall effect is female.  Anything beyond that minimum can help offset poor confidence or poor mannerisms.

Mannerisms are the way one walks, talks, stands, uses hand gestures, smiles etc.  They are everything we do other than stand perfectly still.  If one walks female but smiles male? Female.  If one has feminine hand gestures but talks a little dusky?  Female.  If they stand legs spread apart, where are the hands??  Mannerisms is a great place to fail initially.  Be around women and pick up what suits you.  They are also a great place to aid if the look is weak or there is a lack of confidence.

Confidence is the belief in self.  If you don't think you are a woman then you will fail.  If you remotely have the looks and almost have some female mannerisms but a boat load of confidence, you will pass.

My thoughts

Hugs,

Jen

All this makes sense.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Ummm...the long hair, the breasts, the excellent makeup and what looks to be a nice rear don't hurt either....

Hugs,

Jen

Ohh..Missed the cute smile...  My bad.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:40:12 PM
But aren't there plenty of cis women without confidence that pass?  I definetly think confidence is important to acquire and I realize I need more it, but I've seen cis women with anxiety problems and poor self esteem and it doesn't out them.  Sorry, I'm being a pain, it's just confusing to me.  Maybe I will only really understand these views when I experience more.

The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

Still, I'd had loved to see the look on that officer's face, lol!

I go out nearly every day to different places sometimes for work as I did today, or for groceries, etc. I'm always gendered correctly as female (I hate the term: "Pass") wherever I go despite my lower voice. Now, it's worth mentioning that I have kind of a scratchy voice that is kind of low in volume and I have to repeat myself sometimes to be heard especially if there's a lot of background noise. However getting to my point, I feel a lot with me has to do with how I present myself with my devil may care attitude and I don't care what the public thinks personality. I just be me, no more, no less, in public and it seems people overlook my voice and continue to gender me correctly as female. :icon_flower:

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:40:12 PM
  Confidence and happiness may have helped shape you new life style, but all of the physical changes mattered too in your being embraced as Jessica, right?

Nope! Went full time only two months into HRT. :) Didn't care what people thought I looked like, I was me and they could get over it or deal with me.

Quote from: JLT1 on April 21, 2014, 09:47:38 PM
Ummm...the long hair, the breasts, the excellent makeup and what looks to be a nice rear don't hurt either....Ohh..Missed the cute smile...  My bad.

All fake, but the smile!

When one is seeking support, there is nothing to be gained by not being honest, therefore I say it is uncommon to not be honest.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 22, 2014, 12:30:26 AM
All fake, but the smile!

Your heart isn't fake.  It says to me that you are pretty where it counts the most.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

"Confidence" is a terrible word because it does not mean anything nearly as specific as it sounds like it might.

In the sense you describe, Joanna, confidence is not required. In Jessica's sense, it is. You are both right.

Belief in your self-worth is different than belief in your ability to "Pass" all the time. Both aid in passabity. Neither has anything to do with beauty, or female impersonation.

The word, "Confidence" is remarkably confusing and misleading.

The more you worry about not passing, the less you will pass. The more you worry about enjoying yourself, the more you will. 

Quote from: Tori on April 22, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
The more you worry about not passing, the less you will pass. The more you worry about enjoying yourself, the more you will.

Couldn't have put it better myself..

How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

For an extrovert like me, passing matters less, because I like getting to know people and I don't particularly care if they know if I am trans or not, in most situations at least. I think no less of myself for being in transition than I did before I started. If other people do not like my trans-ness, they still might like me.

I do not like being clocked from afar. I do not particularly like needing to have a circle of awareness that say, crosses the street.

On a good day, I pass to me. On a great day, nobody else seems to notice.

Fact is I have a wife, and friends from before transition. I would have to start over in order to pass or go stealth and I do not wish to start over.

Sometimes, people notice something is up with me, sometimes, to my surprise they clearly do not. The vast majority of the time, if they are not accepting, they are polite.

I have also been violently injured for being trans.

The more I pass to myself, the more I go outside, the more I keep transitioning... the more I pass, period.

I do not participate in that thread because I neither want the criticism nor do I wish to stunt a vulnerable transitioner with my opinion. 

It is not all looks.

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 22, 2014, 02:08:15 AM
How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

It helped me, but that doesn't mean prople were honest about how well I passed exactly, it just worked because I never didn't pass. But it gave me just enough confidence to make the switch, so it might have been a disaster OTOH if I was still not passing or not fully.

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 22, 2014, 02:08:15 AM
How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

Good point.  I agree.  To be honest, all the feedback I've recieved here did make me feel a million times better, especially considering I put up photos that really weren't flattering.  It gave me some hope and even though I feel bad about myself and scared, I do know that I will come out okay in the end. 

Quote from: sad panda on April 22, 2014, 03:24:44 AM
It helped me, but that doesn't mean prople were honest about how well I passed exactly, it just worked because I never didn't pass. But it gave me just enough confidence to make the switch, so it might have been a disaster OTOH if I was still not passing or not fully.

I think another problem, though, is that we can be our own worst enemies.  Like someone may give you an honest opinion that you may not really share about yourself.  That was my issue with most of the feedback I got.  I believe people were honest, even if I a bit positive and trying to give me a gentle push, but I can't see those qualities at all.  We tend to emphasize our own body issues and make it a million times worse than it is.  So, I don't know if it's people aren't being honest, or we just can't accept what they feel.  Everyone views things differently.  Also, it's hard to judge everything about a person through a few pictures.  We know ourselves much more intimately.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 22, 2014, 12:27:20 AM
Nope! Went full time only two months into HRT. :) Didn't care what people thought I looked like, I was me and they could get over it or deal with me.

That's cool.  I just think that's a different thing than passing.  Passing is more about being able to convince people you are a cis girl.  I believe you have done that as well, but really your looks had to have played a role in them saying that.  Appearances do help give people clues to someones's gender.  And I would wager that your confidence and behavior contributed to passing, but your appearance was also an important part.  For example, you've shown us your before picture.  Would you feel comfortable trying to pass without the changes you have made?  I don't know, but I'd assume not.  That's why appearances matter with passing. Being confident and getting people to accept you as a women is great, it's just not exactly the same thing as passing or blending because it's sort of a seperate thing. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

I'm inclined to agree with you Joanna.  At least I hope you're right.  I'd like to be able to build confidence as I go by my successes rather than become overly confident and then move forward.  That will take forever and I doubt my self esteem will be there beforehand.  That;s something I will need to develop in time.  I'm confident though that I'm getting closer and soon enough I'll be able to get out of this funk and live a happy life as myself.  Just a little more effort, work, and time are needed.  Hopefully I can be full time this summer. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 22, 2014, 04:07:58 AM
That's cool.  I just think that's a different thing than passing.  Passing is more about being able to convince people you are a cis girl.  I believe you have done that as well, but really your looks had to have played a role in them saying that.  Appearances do help give people clues to someones's gender.  And I would wager that your confidence and behavior contributed to passing, but your appearance was also an important part.  For example, you've shown us your before picture.  Would you feel comfortable trying to pass without the changes you have made?  I don't know, but I'd assume not.  That's why appearances matter with passing. Being confident and getting people to accept you as a women is great, it's just not exactly the same thing as passing or blending because it's sort of a seperate thing.

I'd probably have written 'Passing is more about other people seeing you as a woman.'

There are pics of me floating around the site.. Based on some of those, I was told I would never pass unless I took surgical options X, Y and Z. My life experience is different. Would you beleive I get correctly gendered even with stubble? So, for me, it appears that appearance, whilst it plays a part, is not the Holy Grail of passing. Having a personality that is known for entering a room before I do might have something to do with it, also.

You might not beleive the personality comment, but around here I play the blunt, cynical bitch - because sometimes it's needed.

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 22, 2014, 04:57:21 AM
I'd probably have written 'Passing is more about other people seeing you as a woman.'

There are pics of me floating around the site.. Based on some of those, I was told I would never pass unless I took surgical options X, Y and Z. My life experience is different. Would you beleive I get correctly gendered even with stubble? So, for me, it appears that appearance, whilst it plays a part, is not the Holy Grail of passing. Having a personality that is known for entering a room before I do might have something to do with it, also.

You might not beleive the personality comment, but around here I play the blunt, cynical bitch - because sometimes it's needed.

I believe you.  I'm sure all of these things play a role and that appearance isn't everything.  I'm just saying it's something and a big one if that.  But I think given enough changes to it, many of us have the potential to blend.  Hopefully I will be able to do that very soon for myself.

And you aren't a bitch Kelly.  I appreciate your feedback.  It's just hard for me to absorb this stuff and maybe my lack of experience shows why I can't fully appreciate all the comments and experiences.  I know I talk a lot and ask many questions, but I do try to learn from others even if it's hard for me to get passed my own drama. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 22, 2014, 05:08:50 AM
And you aren't a bitch Kelly. 

Damn.. I'll have to work harder at it.

what I will write here may be taken as harsh but such is the average onlooker on any given street.

Confidence will do you good, its a fact, however it will do nothing to how you appear to the keen eye of the person who is simply indifferent yet who posses one of the most fundamental visual brain functions, an ability to decipher gender in under a second.

If an individual lacks one or more of skills of BEING a WOMAN, then red light goes on and further interrogation will follow. Such as movement, facial and body geometry, tonality of voice, etc.

Since this is about the PASSING THREAD, and not how confident you carry your self, visual clues have nothing to do with confidence or lack of!

Unfortunately, most will have to settle for confidence and grow a thick skin, as the world isn't going to change as quickly as we might like it to, if ever. But as I have deciphered, it is possible to change who I appeared as, to stand congruent with the stereotype of the world we occupy. 

I now reap the fruits of the path paved with thorns, but I am on the other side now, and must say it was worth it!

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

The thing is, Joanna, that not all of us do pass completely visually. We might be more in the middle, and people can't necessarily tell whether we are women or men by first glace. And then confidence and other gender cues do become very important.

It goes in a heirarchy. First people look at you. If they can't tell what gender you are from that, that's when they start to look for other cues like how we walk, how we speak, our mannerisms, our voices, etc.

There were many times where I was looking at an extremely butch police officer, and couldn't tell whether she was a man or a woman, and it wasn't until she opened her mouth to say something that I mentally said to myself "oh, okay, she's a woman."

So you're right, for those who pass as cis visually, it is nearly impossible to not pass through mannerisms and other things. You may seem abrasive or weird, but people won't question your gender. But again, a lot of us, and just about everyone who is early in transition (which are generally the people we're giving advice to in the first place,) do not have that privilege. We have various body features that probably make people question us, and therefore they're looking for secondary gender cues in order to determine what we are. And in that early-in-transition state where you don't visually conform to the gender norm, confidence is EVERYTHING.

For example... I did not conform to the gender norm as a middle schooler. And people ripped me apart because of it, because I was a sensitive kid without self-confidence. And therefore when people teased me about my appearance, I was emotionally-fragile, and so people knew that they could get away with it. And everyone quarantined me as a weirdo, and I was not accepted. In college, however, there was a girl who basically you could NOT tell what gender she was just by looking at her. She wore long basketball shorts, baggy t-shirts, and huge shoes all the time, kept her hair short, and had no visual body curves. It took me almost an entire day to figure out what her gender was. (She does still identify as female.) The thing is, though, unlike me, she wasn't sensitive about it. She had more of what I'll call the "gay attitude" of always having some witty remark to give back to people who questioned her, and very much a social presence of "this is who I am. My lack of gender conformity doesn't matter to me, why the hell should it matter to anyone else either?" She was just so confident, so completely not caring what other people thought about her. And with that kind of mindset, it basically became impossible to say anything about her appearance and mannerisms, because you knew that she wouldn't care.

So yeah... although it won't change how people are seeing you, it will DEFINITELY change how they treat you. If you're sensitive and lack self-confidence like me, people take that as a free invitation to mock you and treat you like a weirdo. If you're like my college friend, though, people won't give two cares about it, because they'll accept that it's just who you are.

As others have stated confidence is key. A passing thread where someone gets complements and feedback is probably the most ideal way to go about it. Explaining why person X passes to you or what made person X not pass can be beneficial to their transition. However, I do think that things that indicated not passing should be stated in a way that isn't degrading. Ex: waxing brows will make your features look more feminine would be helpful feedback.

I think in the MtF forum there are more honest replies with better feedback. I think that the FtM forum could get some pointers from y'all because I think many times over there people aren't honest (or I am just good at picking out feminine features) or they don't mention what makes a person pass/not pass as well as you gals.

Quote from: David27 on April 22, 2014, 05:34:31 PM
As others have stated confidence is key. A passing thread where someone gets complements and feedback is probably the most ideal way to go about it. Explaining why person X passes to you or what made person X not pass can be beneficial to their transition. However, I do think that things that indicated not passing should be stated in a way that isn't degrading. Ex: waxing brows will make your features look more feminine would be helpful feedback.

I think in the MtF forum there are more honest replies with better feedback. I think that the FtM forum could get some pointers from y'all because I think many times over there people aren't honest (or I am just good at picking out feminine features) or they don't mention what makes a person pass/not pass as well as you gals.

I agree with you David and it's been good to get feedback from people who have been socialized female too. I've left some comments on the FtM pass thread and am mostly met with stone silence which makes posting there a bit discouraging. I suppose it's that some find it intimidating and perhaps others just dislike input from an MtF type.

Quote from: Shantel on April 22, 2014, 06:35:30 PM
I agree with you David and it's been good to get feedback from people who have been socialized female too. I've left some comments on the FtM pass thread and am mostly met with stone silence which makes posting there a bit discouraging. I suppose it's that some find it intimidating and perhaps others just dislike input from an MtF type.

I agree Auntie it would be a good idea for some FTM's to look at and give pointers on our MTF passing threads. Their unique position in life would provide a point of view many of we girls may or may not be seeing about ourselves.