So, this something I think a lot about, duhh, I think we all do. Let me say beforehand, I just want to have friendly discourse, here. Please no name calling, or hurt feelings. I'm sharing opinions and thoughts and looking for feedback, and I'm living this experience...and am pretty deep into it, so please don't think I'm trying to invalidate anybody here.
Please bear with me as I try to sort of...put proper words to this. I guess the way I see it is there are two sides to this..sort of concrete and abstract...sex and gender. Sex is something real and tangible and biologically determined that we can never fully change and gender is something abstract and socially created that we can change, through transition.
Transsexualism is the state of feeling like the opposite sex, likely due to some sort of hormonal exposure in utero, that caused feminization/masculanization of the brain structure. This internal mismatch could be a mild disorder that's easily ignored, were it not aggrivated by gender roles which tell us that each sex is wildly mentally different from the other and that there is something seriously wrong with our body.
At the core, our primal desire is probably to be biologically male/female...which is impossible. However, psychologically, likely starting n early childhoid, this translated into a psychological desire to be a 'man' or a 'woman' right?
I'm not sure if I'm putting this very well. But here is, I think, the key problem. Sex is real, yes. Sexes are different. And gender is a natural, primitive social reaction to these distinctions. But the problem comes in with gender *roles*...these are what cause dysphoria.
Transition, I suppose, in my view, is giving into these roles. By transitioning we validate a restrictive dichotomy so we can find a sense of internal relief...and, no, you really can't hate on anyone for that, because it's us who are most painfully affected by these distinctions. But if that's so, shouldn't *we* be the very ones advocating change, instead, seeing as we're the ones walking the line, here? Because it hurts everyone. It hurts a cismale who is told he's not 'masculine' enough and it hurts a cisfemale who is told she's beneath men because she has a vagina.
If genders weren't so distinguished from one another would transition be necessary? I'm sure thered be discomfort over feeling like we should be the opposite sex, but given the fact we can never have the internal plumbing of a biological female (or dude parts for FtMs), we could find coping mechanisms...and wouldn't that be preferable?
The way I see it, transition shouldn't be necessary, should it? I mean, yeah, it should be something we can do if we want to...but it shouldn't be something we have to feel is so necessary. And it shouldn't be so major.
The irony is that...it's the same system we validate through transition that makes transition both feel so important and be so difficult, both internally and externally.
Thoughts, opinions, etc?
Sexuality (for me)
I am bisexual strongly leaning to males. I am married to a female and she is my best friend. If having a male partner publicly was just fine 35 year ago then I would have been partnered with a male. So, my inability to express my desired sexual preference led me to my current sexual partner and life. I have a good life and cope with the primary desire.
Gender (for me)
I have a female brain and I fit under the umbrella where I see (with my eyes closed) a female. I feel like I am in the wrong body. HRT has saved my life, that and a lot of therapy. I guess society sees people in binary as "normal" and when role models and leaders are promoted and rewarded being other than binary is not rewarded. I feel pressure form both sides to conform and all I want is to be me.
Personality (mine)
I tend to conform and I am growing my personality to express who I am. Sounds simple but here is where it gets very difficult. I try to please everyone and fit in even when I please no one and do not fit in. The more I try to be me the more I do not fit in. I think personality ties sex and gender and other things together. I am expanding my definitions of sex and gender to accommodate me in my personality.
"If genders weren't so distinguished from one another would transition be necessary? "
The nut I've been trying to crack for a few years now. A large part of the difficulty for me has been I built this image of what M (especially so!) and F should be. After 30 years it practically morphed into a caricature. I therefore sort of have to conclude that My concepts of Male/Female are or were invalid.
A big part of the healing process, or dare I call it transition?, for me is bringing these two great aspects of my true self together to form one whole healthy happy person. It has been hard work but well worth it. I can present male and for the most part feel that I am being me. When I present female.... I feel genuine. Or, at the very least a lot more genuine since I am not fully transitioned. A big part of my life is cut off from the other me. Though I have achieved my life long dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman.
At work right now I am well respected, have fun, and the company rewards me for making them a lot of money. My quality of work, I believe, will remain the same if not improve if I present as Joanne. I have little doubt my personality will change significantly at this point in my transition. Yet, I know the presentation will certainly affect others and ultimately me.
I have, as well as all of us, a laundry list of reason or obstacles in the path of a full time transition that extend into all areas of life, not just "Passing". If we were all ascended masters none of these would matter. At this point in my Recovery I am happy to say that my list is far shorter than ever. The reasons left under Why Not I still see as very real for me and the life I want.
So Why? Simply to feel Genuine.
Transition was/is necessary for me. I spend decades as a gender non-conforming female, out dyke, knowing that I didn't identify as a woman. But I came out as a lesbian at an early age, and was influenced enough by the feminist rhetoric around "sex roles" that I believed that I could (and worse, should) live comfortably by just "being myself." Changed careers at 40-ish to a thoroughly non-traditional occupation, had good relationships, fine friends -- and it wasn't enough: I was depressed, angry, and finally suicidal. I'm now transitioning to male, and the difference in how I feel about myself and the world is... astonishing. I'm at peace (relatively speaking -- I won't pretend it's a cure-all or that all my problems magically went away), more relaxed, more outgoing, and generally a happier and nicer person. And at home in my body, even at a very early stage of transition, in a way I've never experienced: It's become something I value and want to take care of in ways I never really have.
Who would've thunk it?
I don't see transition as a necessity, but a choice that each person with gender dysphoria has to carefully consider. I'm going through transtition as I've never been entirely comfortable being a male. I know I will never have the 'plumbing' that biological females have, but I want to get as close as I can in every other department. Even if gender roles between men and women were indistinguishable I'd still transition, it's just something I know I have to do if I ever want to be happy with myself.
Gender is not the same as gender roles and, personally, I find it very insulting when people confuse the two. Maybe it's not such a big deal to anyone else, but I hate being called an idiot and, as far as I'm concerned, confusing my gender with illogical and arbitrary roles is the same as calling me an idiot.
Gender is also a biological thing. Brains are real, physical, biological organs. If I opened up your skull, I would find an actual physical brain. If I cut it open, I would find sexually dimorphic structures in the brain. There is no biological reason for gender roles, but again, gender is not the same thing.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am getting really tired of hearing this transphobic bs.
I am transitioning because I am a guy and I need to feel comfortable with myself. Other people and their stereotypes have nothing to do with it.
@Edge,
No, nooo! I didn't say that lol. I don't believe gender is the same as gender roles and I hate that tired out old argument.
I'm not sure if I worded myself correctly. What I mean to say that gender roles emphasis the separation of genders...they exist, but they're not soo different. So it's gender roles that cause dysphoria, in my view.
I believe that trans people ARE born with brains that are structured as the sex they identify with and the incongruency can cause discomfort. However, ithink a lot of the times dysphoria comes into play when strict gender roles demarcate the separation of male vs female and trigger the pyschological experience of being mismatched.
I guess that's just my view. Sorry, I don't word myself very well. I just feel like if we let everybody be themselves maybe we could accept things better. Ourselves, our bodies, our identities. I just feel like the way things are in our society are obviously bs and in a way a lot of what we do validates a stupid way of thinking.
I'm not saying people shouldn't transition in any way shape or form. But I'm saying the strict gender roles in our society make it very difficult for trans people who'd rather not to...well, not. And it shouldn't be that way.
I spent most of my childhood and teenagedom as a boy. I was allowed to by family. When I moved back with other family and had to cope with being called female and made to dress that way, I quickly turned angry and violent. I moved back with other family, been with them ever since and got a lot calmer. So unless I want to be angry, violent, and eventually end in a very not pretty way, yes. It's necessary. It's that simple for me. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about all that other stuff.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 09:45:38 AM
@Edge,
No, nooo! I didn't say that lol. I don't believe gender is the same as gender roles and I hate that tired out old argument.
I'm not sure if I worded myself correctly. What I mean to say that gender roles emphasis the separation of genders...they exist, but they're not soo different. So it's gender roles that cause dysphoria, in my view.
I believe that trans people ARE born with brains that are structured as the sex they identify with and the incongruency can cause discomfort. However, ithink a lot of the times dysphoria comes into play when strict gender roles demarcate the separation of male vs female and trigger the pyschological experience of being mismatched.
I guess that's just my view. Sorry, I don't word myself very well. I just feel like if we let everybody be themselves maybe we could accept things better. Ourselves, our bodies, our identities. I just feel like the way things are in our society are obviously bs and in a way a lot of what we do validates a stupid way of thinking.
I'm not saying people shouldn't transition in any way shape or form. But I'm saying the strict gender roles in our society make it very difficult for trans people who'd rather not to...well, not. And it shouldn't be that way.
Ah. I've got to admit, I don't understand that point of view. I understand that, for some people, that is the case for them, but it's not something I can wrap my head around.
For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 10:05:39 AM
For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.
mostly for me too...
I guess for me if I had my way I would have absolutely been born a cisfemale, with everything that goes with that, but that can never be. I can never have two X's ovaries or a uterus and that's...you know, something I HAVE to accept. Even if it's what I truly want it's impossible.
And transition..it's about changing your body to change your social gender. Because to me it's the roles that cause the most pain. They're the reminder that you are expected to act like something you feel you're not right? And tgats the painful part. Maybe some people can forget what they aren't and be happy with what they are if it weren't for that...cobstant twisting of the knife.
And transitions, it can't...like it has limitations. It doesn't meet the goal. It doesn't make you the desired sex. If you're lucky and work hard and dump a load of cash it gets your body as close to what you wish it was as possible. But...it's like the painting, this "This is not a pipe".
I don't see transition as something we do to be ourselves. I see it as something we have to do because we live in a society that reminds us constantly that we *aren't* who we want to be without it. It's a coping mechanism, really.
If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 10:27:35 AM
If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.
And thats what scares me the most...
Quote from: kate on May 04, 2014, 10:40:52 AM
That's true. Though the same could be said about CIS women as well :)
Truee, but to a lesser degree. I'm talking more about your bodys makeup..anatomy and whatever. Not looks. Most humans in our society have self image problems tho, I agree
I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.
That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x
I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.
The point is that, at the end of the day, people can do it because they want it and can prove it can make them happier. Being happy is the point, the why doesn't reallly matter.... there doesn't need to be a why! =o)
And i also think that there is life outside of transition even for people who are naturally like te opposite sex.. personally for me, it doesn't feel worth it, even if I can tell I have not fully developed as my cis sex.
i jdon't know... maybe i'm just tired & done with gender but, yeah. That's how i feel and it's just my personal opinion.
Abby, I agree that if there weren't gender roles, (I can't speak for all trans people, but ) I might not need to transition.
Like you I wish I had been born completely female but long ago I resigned myself to the fact that that will never be the case (in this life anyway)
I think that the portion of the trans population with severe dysphoria regarding their physical anatomy will still need to transition. For the rest of us, I think most of the dysphoria is caused by a deprivation of gender expression. If there weren't such a big divide between social genders, then our expression of gender would be much easier.
There is one caveat to my opinion. I am fairly young and have only been experiencing dysphoria for about 10 years. Perhaps if I were to continue living as my birth gender for 10-20 more years I would understand this dysphoria better and it's possible that even with more similar gender roles, it might not be enough.
That's my 2 cents anyway.
I think we shouldn't assume everybody else is the same as ourselves. Gender/sex variance comes in many flavors, I think. If your dysphoria is triggered only/mostly by gender things, or gender role things, then maybe transition is not necessary for you, or maybe it is the worst thing for you in some cases. I don't know, because that isn't my personal experience. For me, my body is wrong, that is the source. Yes, gender/gender role things contribute to my dysphoria, much more so prior to actually transitioning, but it is because they remind(ed) me that this body I have is wrong. In fact, the more in line my body becomes with my mind, the less I worry about gender or fitting into a particular role.
I don't mean I am a masculine female, but I mean, I could be, some people are, and there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. I personally like being female, and all that comes with it, but if I do have a couple typically male traits going on, they don't really bug me anymore. I am not changing my body to transition my role, the role transition is not the ultimate goal. If I just wanted to be feminine and kind of hang with the girls and do girl things, then I could do that as a male no problem. There are many guys that do this, I know several. Well maybe they do face problems, but the problems they deal with are old people hung up on how they think things should be, not problems within themselves.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 11:42:54 AM
I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.
That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x
I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.
The point is that, at the end of the day, people can do it because they want it and can prove it can make them happier. Being happy is the point, the why doesn't reallly matter.... there doesn't need to be a why! =o)
And i also think that there is life outside of transition even for people who are naturally like te opposite sex.. personally for me, it doesn't feel worth it, even if I can tell I have not fully developed as my cis sex.
i jdon't know... maybe i'm just tired & done with gender but, yeah. That's how i feel and it's just my personal opinion.
There's some. Something about the stria terminalis or whatever. But thereve been some tests to at least indicte that.
To me that doesn't really matter. That's more talking about the cause rather than the fact it *is*. I personally honestly couldn't care less about the cause, I was just working on that assumption for the sake of the argument.
But I do agree about that last bit. About finding the most happiness inducing outcome. But for me I've kinda come to realize there's not one for me haha. In my view of it, fundamentally, I am a male that wishes they were a full female. Maybe I could deal with that if it weren't for restrictive gender roles, but they F with my brain too much so I'm transitioning.
But really, it's only moving the problems. From something I have to deal with externally to something I fight internally. And I'm not sure which is worse at this point cuz not feeling real is pretty bad. And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.
And btw to be honest, if I'm talking about myself, I'm not sure exactly what causes my ->-bleeped-<-. But a large part of me thinks that for me, personally, it was mental illness or something to do with my childhood (even though it started very early). Or maybe my brain really IS feminized. Who knows. I have zero way of knowing, but it doesn't matter cuz it is and it's compliucated and stupid and it's evidently incurable.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 11:57:30 AM
And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.
I ve been wondering about this now...
but hhhm we are still young right?
that means our body hadnt masculinized (i dont know if this is even a word btw) completely...
and even like that we had tons of dysphoria...
Im sure I could have found coping mechanism with a body of a slim, unmuscular 18 years old guy...
but what about a big completely masculine 30-40 years old guy? hell I didnt even had a beard!
I could tell that it would only get worse from now on...
thats why I decided to transition, and even now that im 19 T has damaged me so much already...
So yeah...
Anyways Im much better with e in my system, all I want is the overall picture to be female which is not,regardless of gender identity
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 11:57:30 AM
There's some. Something about the stria terminalis or whatever. But thereve been some tests to at least indicte that.
To me that doesn't really matter. That's more talking about the cause rather than the fact it *is*. I personally honestly couldn't care less about the cause, I was just working on that assumption for the sake of the argument.
But I do agree about that last bit. About finding the most happiness inducing outcome. But for me I've kinda come to realize there's not one for me haha. In my view of it, fundamentally, I am a male that wishes they were a full female. Maybe I could deal with that if it weren't for restrictive gender roles, but they F with my brain too much so I'm transitioning.
But really, it's only moving the problems. From something I have to deal with externally to something I fight internally. And I'm not sure which is worse at this point cuz not feeling real is pretty bad. And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.
Yep. I don't know. *hugs* it is different for everyone. I definitely think the simpler status of being a boy is so good for me personally, even if I feel nothing like other boys or like I am supposed to be one.
And I so totally agree that we are the people who are most responsible for changing gender roles, cuz transitioning just supports them. I feel like I should be able to me without compromising at all... society is wrong for not letting me, not me (: you know? Changing who I am legally and with labels and stuff is just like... admitting society won to me.
Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 10:05:39 AM
For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.
That's how it is for me.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 10:27:35 AM
If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.
That's seriously what I've been dealing with hugely lately, as well as the fact that I've lost 30 years of the life I should have had all along. I'm still waiting to get hormones started, so maybe that'll change once on them... I don't know. I just know I'll never look in the mirror and have my image line up with my mental image, which makes me fear I'll never be fully rid of the dysphoria. I honestly can't imagine a life without the pain and torment I've lived with all my life. The whole thing has me teetering back and forth as to whether or not to transition.
But I'm not sure I really have a choice in the matter, either. I'm exhausted, and can't endure the pain any longer, and if I don't at least try to transition, then that's it for me.
Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on May 04, 2014, 12:12:36 PM
I ve been wondering about this now...
but hhhm we are still young right?
that means our body hadnt masculinized (i dont know if this is even a word btw) completely...
and even like that we had tons of dysphoria...
Im sure I could have found coping mechanism with a body of a slim, unmuscular 18 years old guy...
but what about a big completely masculine 30-40 years old guy? hell I didnt even had a beard!
I could tell that it would only get worse from now on...
thats why I decided to transition, and even now that im 19 T has damaged me so much already...
So yeah...
Anyways Im much better with e in my system, all I want is the overall picture to be female which is not,regardless of gender identity
I make up words, but not in this case ;)
http://i.word.com/idictionary/masculinize
But yeah, that's true. I think in my case id take anti androgens regardless. And I'm so tiny in terms of build think id stay fairly small, regardless.
But it doesn't really matter anyway gus I hate the idea of being 30 plus, regardfless. And now I feel like I keep wasting what little goid time I have on this bs.
I wish I never transitioned. I made up my mind not yo a gajillion times, but for some reason I did. I should have just gotten healthy and kept on the path I was on, but whatever lool.
QuoteYep. I don't know. *hugs* it is different for everyone. I definitely think the simpler status of being a boy is so good for me personally, even if I feel nothing like other boys or like I am supposed to be one.
And I so totally agree that we are the people who are most responsible for changing gender roles, cuz transitioning just supports them. I feel like I should be able to me without compromising at all... society is wrong for not letting me, not me (: you know? Changing who I am legally and with labels and stuff is just like... admitting society won to me.
Yupp. This, precisely.
Physical transition is necessary for my well-being.
Forget functioning in the world, I couldn't be comfortable alone in a locked room before. There's no gender roles or social things at work there. No amount of trying to accept my body would stop the constant feeling of physical wrongness. I did everything I could to distract myself and ignore it, which didn't fix anything. Professional treatment for "anxiety" didn't fix it. Exercising, eating healthier, trying to take better care of myself didn't fix it. A binder helped. Top surgery has helped enormously. Being on testosterone is helping. Whether it's a matter of "brain sex" or not, transition is having positive results where everything else failed.
QuoteThat's seriously what I've been dealing with hugely lately, as well as the fact that I've lost 30 years of the life I should have had all along. I'm still waiting to get hormones started, so maybe that'll change once on them... I don't know. I just know I'll never look in the mirror and have my image line up with my mental image, which makes me fear I'll never be fully rid of the dysphoria. I honestly can't imagine a life without the pain and torment I've lived with all my life. The whole thing has me teetering back and forth as to whether or not to transition.
But I'm not sure I really have a choice in the matter, either. I'm exhausted, and can't endure the pain any longer, and if I don't at least try to transition, then that's it for me.
Yiujust gotta do what you gotta do. I think there's always a way to live and to be happy. The person looking back in the mirror is you. It's always going to be. And you know, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, I bet Carmen Carerra has her struggles. Because it's not just about the image. It's everything. It's *being* the sex you wish you were. And you can look the part, suure, I do (at least cvlothes-on), but at the end of it's only a relief from a f-ed up reality if how you were born.
So it's all just a coping mechanism. Transition. Problem is, for some people, it's nit a very goid one.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 11:42:54 AM
I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.
That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x
I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.
If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies
Bingo, cuz I actually mostly agree with him, as well,we really don't know what causes these thinfs. I was just using that for the sake of the argument cuz thats the narrative, and it doesnt matter cause isn't relevant here
This is to no individual in particular. Just a response to the various ideas in the thread.
There are almost no functional differences between my body now and how it was before. I'm a little weaker, I can't pee standing up, etc. Transition, from my perspective, is essentially cosmetic. The shift isn't in how my body works, but how my body looks, feels, smells. That shift, in turn, alters the way that other people react to my body--from increased disinterest in my opinion to my girlfriend's desire to sleep with me.
For me, the primary goal of transition was to convince my brain that my body was no longer "wrong." To shift my self-perception from "monster" to "person." It is hard to describe exactly what I mean by "wrong." But the discomfort was enough to suppress much of my interest in life, as well as a good portion of my identity and personality. To me the pills I take and the surgeries I had were, at their core, the equivalent of a very powerful anti-depressant, with limited negative side effects (at least physically).
I have very little in the way of romantic notions of a natural form. I've spent too much of my life at war with my body in one way or another. I used to have a tag on my profile that said "100% artificial." I can't really bring myself to care that I am "less real" or some such than other humans. To me, I am an improvement over the screwed up mess of a body that I was gifted with. Every alteration to my form, every pill, every surgery, even each tattoo and piercing, is part of my effort to reclaim, recolonize my flesh. This is my body and I will make of it as I damn well please, nah? Perhaps that perspective is because of my disability. I don't know.
As to how I am perceived by my society? I find "woman" to be the path of least resistance. So my name is Sarah and I am legally female. But I would never have transitioned for that. And in a world that didn't offer sufficient tools to alter my flesh, I'd probably be dead now, I'm guessing. So it goes.
As to gender norms and roles and all that jazz? It will be something I struggle with and struggle against for all of my life. There will never be a comfortable place in this world for people like me. Not in my lifetime at least. But at least I am lucky enough to live in a time and place where I can walk down the street without being regularly harassed.
I think, as always, it important to remember that we have more differences than similarities.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
Yiujust gotta do what you gotta do. I think there's always a way to live and to be happy. The person looking back in the mirror is you. It's always going to be. And you know, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, I bet Carmen Carerra has her struggles. Because it's not just about the image. It's everything. It's *being* the sex you wish you were. And you can look the part, suure, I do (at least cvlothes-on), but at the end of it's only a relief from a f-ed up reality if how you were born.
So it's all just a coping mechanism. Transition. Problem is, for some people, it's nit a very goid one.
Exactly. It's not about the image for me, that just adds to it. What I want is peace, an end to the constant torment of the dysphoria that's there with or without the mirror, or the image. It's out of the disconnect from what my brain expects to feel in regards to my biology and what my biology actually is. And as you point out, transitioning has many limits, and I'm scared it won't be enough to end the dysphoria.
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.
If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU
There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.
But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me. ;)
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
The scientists who did the studies took that into account. More studies do need to be done, but the results so far strongly indicate that the brain thing is correct.
Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 11:49:01 AM
I think we shouldn't assume everybody else is the same as ourselves. Gender/sex variance comes in many flavors, I think. If your dysphoria is triggered only/mostly by gender things, or gender role things, then maybe transition is not necessary for you, or maybe it is the worst thing for you in some cases. I don't know, because that isn't my personal experience. For me, my body is wrong, that is the source. Yes, gender/gender role things contribute to my dysphoria, much more so prior to actually transitioning, but it is because they remind(ed) me that this body I have is wrong. In fact, the more in line my body becomes with my mind, the less I worry about gender or fitting into a particular role.
I agree with this.
True, my body will never be exactly how I want it, but it can be something closer to how I want it. Maybe I'll "never be happy," but I know for a fact I will never be happy if my body continues to be as wrong as it is.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.
If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU
There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.
But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me. ;)
Thanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.
Sorry to derail...
Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
True, my body will never be exactly how I want it, but it can be something closer to how I want it. Maybe I'll "never be happy," but I know for a fact I will never be happy if my body continues to be as wrong as it is.
^This. I don't know if transitioning will help me find peace and be happy and that alone is scary, but there's at least a chance it will. Which is more than can be said for not transitioning.
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.
If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?
Yeah, I just think it's weird to act like it needs to be something we can't help, esp before anyone really knows what we are talking about. It shouldn't need to be a brain sex thing, it shouldn't even absolutely need an explanation... it doesn't change people's feelings and experiences. Those are real, Those are what matters! :)
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU
There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.
But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me. ;)
I always see that link and I am confused what people are even saying it proved... :s it did not confirm that MTFs had female brains, or even, it confirmed that they did not, even if they were in between, (should we allow mtfs to be dykes and tomboys but not femme girls now?) ...and it was only a few parts of the brain, which they don't even know if those things are related to gender, and we don't really know much about the selection bias or how that sample represents the actual average trans person. or less standard trans people, or really anything at all. So... I still think that there is no proof yet, and there shouldn't need to be... sorry... :x
(Oh yeah, also the bias after the fact of only posting studies that find differences and ignoring studies that don't...)
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 04, 2014, 12:48:32 PM
Exactly. It's not about the image for me, that just adds to it. What I want is peace, an end to the constant torment of the dysphoria that's there with or without the mirror, or the image. It's out of the disconnect from what my brain expects to feel in regards to my biology and what my biology actually is. And as you point out, transitioning has many limits, and I'm scared it won't be enough to end the dysphoria.
Regardless, at the end, it's still you. The essence of you as a person. Truthfully, it won't end the dysphoria, I don't believe. It may..impair it. But if you're too obsessed with having a female identical body, again, you'll never be happy no matterf who you are. You could be fricken Carmen Carerra like I said. And still feel incomplete. Because, in a way, if your goal is a seamless transition to the other sex, you always will be...no matter how passable, no matter how pretty, no matter how many pills, surgeries etc.
I think the only way for a trans person to be happy is to forget gender altogether. Find the spot that's most comfortable and then let it go. Be you. Be a person. Be Colleen. And look at your body and say...this is what you've got. Sure amake any upgrades you want if thats what you think you need but at the end accept and love it regardless because it's yours, and it's all you've got for this time around.
PM me if you wana talk and hang in there boo!
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU
There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.
But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me. ;)
Thanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.
Sorry to derail...
From the studies I've read and looked into, gay and lesbian transpeople's brains are closer to that of their birth sex, but a number of differences in various regions and structures were still found. The conclusion being drawn is that the brains of transpeople are structured and wired differently than cisgender brains, even when they more closely match their birth sex rather than the gender they identify as.
Yeahh, I think we're getting too hung up on the cause. Regardless, it's something that takes place within your head right? Maybe physical maybe mental. Who cares. The cause doesnt matter i shoulda left that out, i was trying to avoid people bringing up to say "well this meaans blah bla" by saying it first.
It's the thoughts and feelings that are distressing, in whatever case. That and how to deal with them is what needs to be addressed.
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:59:35 PMThanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.
Sorry to derail...
I'm afraid all this research is really in its infancy. (Though, yes, differences between homosexual and hetero brains have been found since 1991.) Another 20 years and we may start getting some answers as to what makes us as we are.
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 01:02:51 PMI always see that link and I am confused what people are even saying it proved... :s it did not confirm that MTFs had female brains, or even, it confirmed that they did not, even if they were in between, (should we allow mtfs to be dykes and tomboys but not femme girls now?) ...and it was only a few parts of the brain, which they don't even know if those things are related to gender, and we don't really know much about the selection bias or how that sample represents the actual average trans person. or less standard trans people, or really anything at all. So... I still think that there is no proof yet, and there shouldn't need to be... sorry... :x
(Oh yeah, also the bias after the fact of only posting studies that find differences and ignoring studies that don't...)
From my perspective, it proved the need for further research into the subject. That there is "something" there, but we don't yet know what it is, or how it works, or why. I never believe that a lack of information is positive. I'm an information junkie.
And I have no interest in "proving" transsexualism. That is kind of an absurd concept really. I exist, ergo transsexualism exists. The end. I just would like to understand it better.
It's hard to answer the hypothetical scenario about living in a world where gender roles didn't exist. I never lived in such a world, so I can't say how I'd feel. To be honest, I feel it differs from person to person as dysphoria seems to be unique to each individual. In my eyes, I feel compelled to do it and would hate to have to live as a guy for the rest of my life. If I lived in a world where I could be a guy yet live and look exactly what a girl has, then maybe but I guess body dysphoria would always exist. I don't know because it's not reality. Transitioning just seems to make the most sense considering how I feel and what I want out of my life. Was I born this way? I don't know. Was I made this way? I don't know. All I do know is that this has been how I've felt for most of my life and I'm tired of letting it haunt me. No matter how much I tried to change myself it's been a part of me for whatever reason or explanation. All I want is for there to be a day that I can feel happy and free and transitioning seems the best way to offer this. It's not neccessarry for everyone, but it seems the best shot I got. To be honest, I don't even want to live in a future that would require me living as a man and I can't wait for this all to be over.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
I'm afraid all this research is really in its infancy. (Though, yes, differences between homosexual and hetero brains have been found since 1991.) Another 20 years and we may start getting some answers as to what makes us as we are.
From my perspective, it proved the need for further research into the subject. That there is "something" there, but we don't yet know what it is, or how it works, or why. I never believe that a lack of information is positive. I'm an information junkie.
And I have no interest in "proving" transsexualism. That is kind of an absurd concept really. I exist, ergo transsexualism exists. The end. I just would like to understand it better.
Yeah, I just don't understand when people link that and say, look, it's proven!! I feel like, yeah, again, that just distracts from the fact that people deserve to be happy, however they choose, and not to have to explain it at all. I think that is what's most i portant. Why do people need to know why?
Not that it hurts, but it's definitely not the only reason to give trans people the freedom they deserve :)
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 01:22:44 PM
Yeah, I just don't understand when people link that and say, look, it's proven!! I feel like, yeah, again, that just distracts from the fact that people deserve to be happy, however they choose, and not to have to explain it at all. I think that is what's most i portant. Why do people need to know why?
Not that it hurts, but it's definitely not the only reason to give trans people the freedom they deserve :)
I think most people feel they need to cling to it because otherwise they are forced to change by others. For example, my mom was quite serious about me going to reparative therapy at a point to fix both my gender and sexuality "problems". I even know someone in my personal life that had to do this for being trans. It's the same thing with being gay. People just are. You can't program one to change even if there is no real answer out there, but without a medical reaons it can b seen as something that is correctable or a disorder of some sort. Saying born this way allows to combat that stuff.
And then there is the fact that for many of us in the lgbt community it feels like we were made this way. Like we couldn't change it and we always just were. I feel that way myself, though I will never claim to know why any of us happen to be trans. It's pretty much the same thing with the rest of the lgbt community. Who knows, but it shouldn't matter either way.
I have a vested interest in knowing the cause of transsexualism because a) I'm a brain fanboy, b) I'm sick of people thinking I'm dumb enough to try to fit into an illogical, arbitrary stereotype, and c) I'm sick of the transphobic idea that we don't need to transition, will get better with some reparative therapy, and that we are wrong for feeling the way we do about our bodies.
Nothing is ever "proven" in science. That's not the way it works. We can, however, make inferences due to the knowledge we have so far. True, we need to do more studies, but the knowledge we've learned so far is still knowledge. It doesn't disappear just because we want more.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
Regardless, at the end, it's still you. The essence of you as a person. Truthfully, it won't end the dysphoria, I don't believe. It may..impair it. But if you're too obsessed with having a female identical body, again, you'll never be happy no matterf who you are. You could be fricken Carmen Carerra like I said. And still feel incomplete. Because, in a way, if your goal is a seamless transition to the other sex, you always will be...no matter how passable, no matter how pretty, no matter how many pills, surgeries etc.
I think the only way for a trans person to be happy is to forget gender altogether. Find the spot that's most comfortable and then let it go. Be you. Be a person. Be Colleen. And look at your body and say...this is what you've got. Sure amake any upgrades you want if thats what you think you need but at the end accept and love it regardless because it's yours, and it's all you've got for this time around.
PM me if you wana talk and hang in there boo!
The forgetting and ignoring, that was my coping mechanism. It doesn't stop the dysphoria. It may work for you, and I hope it does, but it didn't for me.
Also as I've said before, transitioning is a hope of finding peace and being happy for once. Of being allowed to be Colleen, without being called out anytime I relax and stop trying to act male, because god forbid my natural mannerisms happen to more feminine than masculine, and the taboo that that is. It is not an expectation to be identical to a ciswoman. If I gave the impression I was saying that was the reason I was transitioning, then I'm sorry, that's not at all what I meant.
The reason I'm transitioning now at 30 and not sooner, despite knowing what I was by the time I was 10, is because all the other coping mechanisms I've employed all my life have failed. This is my last option. I genuinely like who I am. Took years to build myself up and repair the damage done to reach that point of self-acceptance and love. Didn't stop the pain and discomfort of not having your brain and body line up. Transitioning brings the body closer to being inline with your identity, and for many, enough to trick the brain into feeling the body matches, thus greatly reducing or even, for some, getting rid of the dysphoria on a daily, constant basis.
That is all I hope for. Relief, and peace and freedom.
I get the impression, and might be wrong, apologies I am, that you define dysphoria as a body image issue. While that is a true and valid definition, it can be other things as well. For me and others, it's the discomfort and pain of the brain expecting to feel one body, and getting the signals from another. An amputee can learn to accept and love who they are now, missing limb and all, but doing so doesn't magically stop the phantom pains they experience. Amplify that phantom pain to be your whole body and it can become unbearable. It is a somatosensory issue as much, or more so than a visual issue.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 04, 2014, 01:36:12 PM
I think most people feel they need to cling to it because otherwise they are forced to change by others. For example, my mom was quite serious about me going to reparative therapy at a point to fix both my gender and sexuality "problems". I even know someone in my personal life that had to do this for being trans. It's the same thing with being gay. People just are. You can't program one to change even if there is no real answer out there, but without a medical reaons it can b seen as something that is correctable or a disorder of some sort. Saying born this way allows to combat that stuff.
And then there is the fact that for many of us in the lgbt community it feels like we were made this way. Like we couldn't change it and we always just were. I feel that way myself, though I will never claim to know why any of us happen to be trans. It's pretty much the same thing with the rest of the lgbt community. Who knows, but it shouldn't matter either way.
Just saying.. reparative therapy is... dumb. It has no merit if it doesn't make the patient happier, and it never did. So combatting that with born this way is giving legitimacy to an attack that shouldn't have happened in the first place. People who say people shouldn't have the right to transition are bigots, and they deserve to be treated like bigots. Don't accept the burden of defending yourself from that. Everybody owns their body and deserves to do what they want with it. Everyone deserves to be themselves and express their personality and to have access to equal opportunities to do that. Trans people are valid because they are. Because they deserve to be happy and to do what makes them happy, and if you make it so they need to have a medical condition to deserve it, you are just throwing people with no medical condition, who are still unhappy, under the bus. When the whole time, nobody even knows pretty much anything about the underlying biology in the first place, and nobody even knows that they have a medical condition. it just.. doesn't matter, and it's actually a really problematic and irresponsible assumption for a lot of social groups.
(I am not ranting at you btw... just trying to put how i feel out there... this topic makes me kinda upset cuz i just get so frustrated by prejudiced people... ugh)
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 01:10:31 PM
Yeahh, I think we're getting too hung up on the cause. Regardless, it's something that takes place within your head right? Maybe physical maybe mental. Who cares. The cause doesnt matter i shoulda left that out, i was trying to avoid people bringing up to say "well this meaans blah bla" by saying it first.
It's the thoughts and feelings that are distressing, in whatever case. That and how to deal with them is what needs to be addressed.
Sorry for derailing. :)
As to the OP, for me it's a physical thing. And while I would be happier in a world without gender roles, I'm pretty sure I'd still be unhappy in the body I had before. It's weird for me, because I really don't care much about not having certain genitals. It's the secondary characteristics that bothered me. Now that my chest is flat as a pancake and I have beard growth - I just feel a lot more comfortable.
I can't really think of a more comfortable physical state for me to achieve (besides being forever young and immortal :P). I don't think changing my genitals would do anything for me. While I probably would have preferred to be a cis male with all the works at birth - I don't care about having a penis now that I've had a vagina. :P
Anyway, I'm not much of a fan of either gender role. I'd rather be seen as male. But that's not perfect either. If I could pick the gender role for me, it'd be a mix. And there probably are people feeling pressured to transition because gender roles are so stifling. I'dve changed my body regardless however. I'm so much more comfortable. Showering isn't the hell it used to be. (seriously, it was like climbing Mt. Everest every time before).
Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 01:59:29 PM
Just saying.. reparative therapy is... dumb. It has no merit if it doesn't make the patient happier, and it never did. So combatting that with born this way is giving legitimacy to an attack that shouldn't have happened in the first place. People who say people shouldn't have the right to transition are bigots, and they deserve to be treated like bigots. Don't accept the burden of defending yourself from that. Everybody owns their body and deserves to do what they want with it. Everyone deserves to be themselves and express their personality and to have access to equal opportunities to do that. Trans people are valid because they are. Because they deserve to be happy and to do what makes them happy, and if you make it so they need to have a medical condition to deserve it, you are just throwing people with no medical condition, who are still unhappy, under the bus. When the whole time, nobody even knows pretty much anything about the underlying biology in the first place, and nobody even knows that they have a medical condition. it just.. doesn't matter, and it's actually a really problematic and irresponsible assumption for a lot of social groups.
(I am not ranting at you btw... just trying to put how i feel out there... this topic makes me kinda upset cuz i just get so frustrated by prejudiced people... ugh)
Agreed. I don't think there is a need to defend it like that. I couldn't care less if someone was born gay, became gay or chose to be gay. All of them are valid. Same thing with trans. It's just that people are going to use born this way to say it's a natural thing and thus there is no need to correct. Sadly, I think it makes it harder to help non-binaries and those who are outside of the general trans narrative for this reason. Really my own philosophy on life is to "do as thou wilt". I interpret it differently than it was meant, but the idea of follow your own heart is all that really matters. As for bigotry, I'm sad exists as well, but it always will. Really everyone should just be themselves and follow their heart, but people love to control others. There is no right way to be a man or woman though people will always attempt to dictate other people's lives.
That being said, I really do encourage research and mental health professionals to find out potential causes in the future. Maybe it's more diverse and differs person to person. Really, there is no sure thing. While I felt this since I was young, maybe my messed up childhood was part of the problem. Maybe I could have been a normal "boy" if things went differently. Maybe I was born this way? I really don't know. I just know who I am even though I'm plagued by the why. I doubt there will ever be much of an answer though and that's okay.
I just...I actually never hated my body as a guy. Quite honestly I liked it a good bit tbh. I was never dysphoric about what I have or didn't have. I feel like my desire to be female, tho always there, really reared it's head over feeling like gender roles I felt like I could never live up to. I dunno, it's complicated.
Just because you don't have body dysphoria does not mean others don't. Telling us that we'll "never be happy" and confusing it with body dysmorphia is pretty insulting.
Also, just because some of you don't care about knowledge and learning, does not mean others don't. Some of us like knowledge and learning.
I don't think either were meant to be insulting Edge.
It is quite possible that there was a misunderstanding about how varied dysphoria can get, and by this discussion a better understanding of all it can entail has been achieved. We all tend to define the world by how we experience it first, and require others to point out and show us how their experiences differ for us to expand our understanding of it. As such I don't think any insult was meant, or intended, and the misunderstanding has been resolved. There is no cause to get defensive.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:13:36 AM
If genders weren't so distinguished from one another would transition be necessary? I'm sure thered be discomfort over feeling like we should be the opposite sex, but given the fact we can never have the internal plumbing of a biological female (or dude parts for FtMs), we could find coping mechanisms...and wouldn't that be preferable?
The way I see it, transition shouldn't be necessary, should it? I mean, yeah, it should be something we can do if we want to...but it shouldn't be something we have to feel is so necessary. And it shouldn't be so major.
I get where you're coming from, but...
Because we can't transition 100% to a biological sex doesn't take away that we can transition ~50% to a biological sex, and that's way more than a century ago. If I was the last person on earth, I'd gladly take my 50% (hormones' cellular effects, breasts, vagina-shaped organ that feels and mostly functions like one).
If gender roles were non-existent and there weren't even words for "man" and "woman", I feel like I'd still prefer having soft skin, fun mounds on my chest and inward genitals. :P
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 02:23:44 PM
I just...I actually never hated my body as a guy. Quite honestly I liked it a good bit tbh. I was never dysphoric about what I have or didn't have. I feel like my desire to be female, tho always there, really reared it's head over feeling like gender roles I felt like I could never live up to. I dunno, it's complicated.
I guess I had a love/hate relationship with it. My body. The dysphoria never went away but everyone kept liking me for my looks. (Mostly face and tits - as the rest of me really wasn't very feminine.) I realized I was a guy way before I knew about transition. In the end, it was the physical stuff that drove me to it. I suppose people just have different triggers.
What was it about gender roles you felt you couldn't live up to?
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
But if you're too obsessed with having a female identical body, again, you'll never be happy no matterf who you are. You could be fricken Carmen Carerra like I said. And still feel incomplete. Because, in a way, if your goal is a seamless transition to the other sex, you always will be...no matter how passable, no matter how pretty, no matter how many pills, surgeries etc.
Maybe it's unhealthy, but I embraced the desire to be fully biologically the right sex, and it drove me into biology and biotechnology. I may not be completely content in the meantime, but if there's even a chance I can help the next generation of trans people, I'm content with my discontent. That's well worth the sacrifice.
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 02:52:43 PM
What was it about gender roles you felt you couldn't live up to?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to chime in here.
The main thing that annoyed me, screwed with my head, etc, was this whole friggin macho/Jock thing that my dad always tried to impose on me. Hell, if I had been a genetic male, I never could have lived up to that because it just wasn't me. I absolutely hated sports because that ultra competitive vibe that sucks people in totally destroyed what was supposed to be a fun kind of activity. I just didn't get it. Plus, that whole macho thing was just...ugh.
Sure, I've seen the same things with women (not macho, of course, just the other side of the same coin.)
But the combo of the crap that my dad was throwing at me, the gender dysphoria, the crap from my peers, it just made my life totally suck. (Expect for when I was alone in my room with my stereo.)
Quote from: Inanna on May 04, 2014, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 01:04:06 PM
But if you're too obsessed with having a female identical body, again, you'll never be happy no matterf who you are. You could be fricken Carmen Carerra like I said. And still feel incomplete. Because, in a way, if your goal is a seamless transition to the other sex, you always will be...no matter how passable, no matter how pretty, no matter how many pills, surgeries etc.
Maybe it's unhealthy, but I embraced the desire to be fully biologically the right sex, and it drove me into biology and biotechnology. I may not be completely content in the meantime, but if there's even a chance I can help the next generation of trans people, I'm content with my discontent. That's well worth the sacrifice.
That's an interesting difference. I never really thought about it before. Because I had some pretty bad dysphoria. It doesn't really extend much to biology though. I'm pretty content with just having the secondary sex characteristics changed. I have some slight genital/sexual dysphoria and some regret at not being able to father a child. But nothing to write home about. I guess I'm lucky in a way.
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 03:08:27 PM
That's an interesting difference. I never really thought about it before. Because I had some pretty bad dysphoria. It doesn't really extend much to biology though. I'm pretty content with just having the secondary sex characteristics changed. I have some slight genital/sexual dysphoria and some regret at not being able to father a child. But nothing to write home about. I guess I'm lucky in a way.
Perhaps if I had started HRT before male puberty, secondary sex characteristics would've been enough to be content. But T is such a powerful hormone compared to E.
Quote from: Inanna on May 04, 2014, 03:16:33 PM
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 03:08:27 PM
That's an interesting difference. I never really thought about it before. Because I had some pretty bad dysphoria. It doesn't really extend much to biology though. I'm pretty content with just having the secondary sex characteristics changed. I have some slight genital/sexual dysphoria and some regret at not being able to father a child. But nothing to write home about. I guess I'm lucky in a way.
Perhaps if I had started HRT before male puberty, secondary sex characteristics would've been enough to be content. But T is such a powerful hormone compared to E.
True. You mean because you were already changed so much by T?
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 02:52:43 PM
I guess I had a love/hate relationship with it. My body. The dysphoria never went away but everyone kept liking me for my looks. (Mostly face and tits - as the rest of me really wasn't very feminine.) I realized I was a guy way before I knew about transition. In the end, it was the physical stuff that drove me to it. I suppose people just have different triggers.
What was it about gender roles you felt you couldn't live up to?
Just everything. It's not like I didn't *want* to be female, regardless, because i did. It's more that I just didn't hate being male, per se, except when gender roles came into play. For instance...I had to sign up for selective service when I got a drivers permit and it made me feel like absolute crap. 10 days later I was back on hormones. It triggered me into dysphoria because I couldn't handle a traditionally 'manly' gender role that was being forced on me, even though id been employing coping mechanisms and finding peace in my body.
I guess it's true that dysphoria isdifferent for everyon
I was simply sharing my opinion. It's not like I'm not transitioning or I'm talking from the outside. Y'all (not yoy, FA, the others) could have shared your points of view without jumping down my throat like always cuz I wa trying really hard this time.
I see people telling people they are delusional about this thing or that, but really it is probably just that we all aren't exactly the same, or in some cases even very similar.
I agree with Sarah, the physical transition is not only about how your body is shaped, it's everything--down to the chemicals. That is what has eased dysphoria for me. I mean I noticed it almost immediately after starting HRT, before any physical effects had happened, that my mind felt better. I know that isn't everybody's experience, but it was definitely mine.
Looking like I do now also has allowed me to act like myself and insert myself into certain social roles without raising eyebrows, and that is a bonus, but not why I did it. Same with being able to wear makeup and wear styles I love and look pretty, those things don't really do anything for my dysphoria per se, but they are super fun, and a really great cherry on top. I am pretty feminine, but if I wasn't, I think I would still need to be a woman, for whatever reason. Biological or otherwise.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 03:33:33 PM
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 02:52:43 PM
I guess I had a love/hate relationship with it. My body. The dysphoria never went away but everyone kept liking me for my looks. (Mostly face and tits - as the rest of me really wasn't very feminine.) I realized I was a guy way before I knew about transition. In the end, it was the physical stuff that drove me to it. I suppose people just have different triggers.
What was it about gender roles you felt you couldn't live up to?
Just everything. It's not like I didn't *want* to be female, regardless, because i did. It's more that I just didn't hate being male, per se, except when gender roles came into play. For instance...I had to sign up for selective service when I got a drivers permit and it made me feel like absolute crap. 10 days later I was back on hormones. It triggered me into dysphoria because I couldn't handle a traditionally 'manly' gender role that was being forced on me, even though id been employing coping mechanisms and finding peace in my body.
I guess it's true that dysphoria isdifferent for everyon
Wow, thinking of you signing up for selective service doesn't even compute. I can see where that would be troubling. The male gender role is so stifling. There's definitely some good to the female gender role despite it being a 'lower status'. The ability to be weak or need help, show emotion. Not have to be strong when you're not, etc. The male gender role doesn't leave a lot in the way of being a human being behaviorally. And just being female has advantages - people are more likely to trust you, help you, give you a ride if you need one. People are so much less likely to aid a man. (probably why 99% of the people holding signs on the street for food are male, at least in my city)
For me, the worst part of being female is the youth and beauty stuff. Being judged first and foremost on that. It's like men are expected to be perfect, less than human robots behaviorally. And women physically. I wish we could just all be seen as full human beings.
Actually, honestly, you know what, the thing is my original intent was to say that transition just shouldn't ge such a big bleeping deal. It shouldn't be necessary for most. I'm sorry, but it shouldn't. We shouldn't live in a society that tells us who we are is what's between our legs. Genders shouldnt be so distinguished from one another. And it shouldn't be something that's a major deal for those doo who want to do it.
Trans people feed into this through their transitions. Everything about 99% of transitions validates this f-ed up, traditional way of thinking. Look at the entire trans narrative...a woman/man trapped in a man/womans body. It's depressing! We have this whole tragic view of it and it IS tragic because we let it be! We feed into the very binary that's stifling us instead of saying, heyy, screw that! And then you yell at the ones who doo speak up. Trans people are so freaking binary.
If you wanna transition you should absolutely be able to, and nobody should give a crap. But it shouldn't make or break us. Gender should never be that important.
And btw, what about the non ops? Are they not women because they don't hate...or even like...their penises? What about the peeps whho can't physically transition because of health? Is their identity invalid because they don't change their bodies? Or is who they are about how they feel?
That's my view, and that's ONE view I will never apologize for.
Sometimes people are binary. Sometimes the trans narrative does fit. If you aren't binary, then the traditional, binary-based, approach may not be right for you. That doesn't mean it isn't for everybody.
@Jen,
Being trans and being binary is like being a gay Republican. The very definition of the word trans is Latin and it means 'outside' of something.
And as a general rule these kinds of narratives are harmful. Now it's nice for you, and hell even nice for me, because we're pretty girls who don't grab a second look. But that's not everyone. Why don't you go tell the unpassable transwomen who get beaten or even killed about how fantastic binary thinking is.
In other words...I'm checkin my privilege girl. Why don't you?
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings as many of us experience things differently to begin with. I came into this thread trying to answer the questions as best as I could (hypotheticals aren't easy for me), but I realize that some will feel differently than me as we are all unique people that don't necessarily share the same feelings or life circumstances. Anyway, I think this was an interesting topic with many valid viewpoints and different experiences to back them up, but I will apologize if I upset anyone in the process of participating.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 04, 2014, 04:04:06 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings as many of us experience things differently to begin with. I came into this thread trying to answer the questions as best as I could (hypotheticals aren't easy for me), but I realize that some will feel differently than me as we are all unique people that don't necessarily share the same feelings or life circumstances. Anyway, I think this was an interesting topic with many valid viewpoints and different experiences to back them up, but I will apologize if I upset anyone in the process of participating.
Don't be such a goose :p! You needa little more confidence girl ;)
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
@Jen,
Being trans and being binary is like being a gay Republican. The very definition of the word trans is Latin and it means 'outside' of something.
And as a general rule these kinds of narratives are harmful. Now it's nice for you, and hell even nice for me, because we're pretty girls who don't grab a second look. But that's not everyone. Why don't you go tell the unpassable transwomen who get beaten or even killed about how fantastic binary thinking is.
In other words...I'm checkin my privilege girl. Why don't you?
Trans means across or the other side. That is why we use that prefix, but who cares about that, really?
I fit into the binary, am I wrong for being that way? I don't really get it?
I'm not telling people they have to be binary when they aren't, why would you tell me I can't be when I am?
I do agree with you that the idea that the binary is the
only way is harmful to people, and I don't support that kind of thinking. You be you, I'll be me?
Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 04:10:35 PM
Trans means across or the other side. That is why we use that prefix, but who cares about that, really?
I fit into the binary, am I wrong for being that way? I don't really get it?
I'm not telling people they have to be binary when they aren't, why would you tell me I can't be when I am?
I do agree with you that the idea that the binary is the only way is harmful to people, and I don't support that kind of thinking. You be you, I'll be me?
The binary shouldn't exist to fit into to begin with, that's what you don't understand. It's harmful for everyone. I see it as an elaborate form of bigotry that's ingrained in our society, and harms anyone who falls outside it or on the low end of the totem pole (which trans people innately do, despite your quivel over semantics).
If you fit into it...which, as a transperson, you only give the image of fitting into it, you don't, truly (and that's what slays me about binary thinking trans people)...but if you do thats by coincidence. Or at least it should be. It shouldn't be a standard.
This is the problem...when you dissect this you see that it's a systemic way of thinking. We like to complain about the bigotry in society but we've internalized so much of it many of us are no better. And we indirectly validate it through our transitions all for the sake of finding peace in a f-ed up sense of normality that shouldn't even be there in 2014.
I haven't had time today to read the entire thread, but I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that transition isn't (usually) necessary.
My transition had, and has, nothing to do with gender roles. I never felt the desire to be male because I wanted to be "treated like a man." I did spend a number of years trying to be a stereotypical female because I didn't want to "encourage" my transgender feelings, but when I realized that I was probably only making myself feel worse, I actually went out of my way to do everything I wanted to do as a female. That, for me, was the litmus test - could I be entirely myself without changing sex? Obviously that would be preferable, less chance of discrimination, less financial burden, etc. I spent about 5 years doing everything I wanted as a female. I wanted to do something "masculine"? I did it and never once was sorry, even when I got dirty looks. I wanted to do something feminine? I did it, and felt no better when I got approval from others. And for the most part, people treated me with more respect because they saw me as someone who was in charge of themselves and wasn't about to take any crap.
But I still felt equally dysphoric, even though I was fulfilling the role I wanted to. Even though my life, even by my own estimation, was perfect. Because I know, on some visceral level, that I am not meant to have a female body. That's it. There's nothing secret or special to it, I just have never been comfortable with a female body. Beyond that, I've always known my body should be male. Hormones have done nothing but confirm that. The more male characteristics I develop, the less foreign and alien my body seems to me. I've also been consistently more balanced on hormones than I was before, when I really didn't even expect them to affect my disposition.
I wouldn't have been happy as a female, no matter how much I perfected my "role" in society. To me, it's almost akin to saying to a lesbian "yeah, you might prefer being with women, but couldn't you just get used to being with a guy? Why do all this gay stuff? Is being with a woman really necessary? I mean what really is the difference between being with a guy and a girl?" Yeah, for the lesbian, it is necessary, and it is different, because it's the difference between spending a life half-assing a relationship, never feeling true and complete love, and feeling slightly ill to your stomach when you look at the person you're supposed to spend your life with. For me, transition is necessary, and being a man IS different than being a woman. Because it is the difference between spending my days avoiding the unfamiliar face in the mirror, having parts that feel alien hanging off my body, and trying to balance my life and live a full life while dealing with the pain and discomfort I feel inside.
I've noticed a lot of this sort of stuff coming out - that dysphoric trans people are reinforcing the binary. I seem to remember that a lot of conservative, transphobic people have said that to me. "Why would you become a man, can't you just be a lesbian?" or "Can't you just be a masculine woman?" "Can't you just delay the transition, why does it matter, it's not necessary, it's cosmetic." "Why can't you just learn to accept having breasts and a vagina?" How are these kind of discussions any different? That it's somehow wrong to feel that your body is incorrect and to seek ways to feel better within it as the opposite sex.
I guess I have to be the one who says it. A good Therapist can help you answer most of the post's in this topic. My Therapist and I have gone over nearly all the points in this topic over the last 9 months and that is why I don't have these thoughts and battles in my mind. I am now free of all the questions and what if's and can concentrate on being the new me, er, old me, however you look at it. The point is all these questions and attempts at justification for transition have been answered. I am now free to live the rest of my life without regret or pain. :)
See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.
It's because we're told that this is how one gender is supposed to act...and in trying to escape one crappy stereotype we run toward another, or at least many of us do. Instead of saying "->-bleeped-<- you" to both sides.
And my god, woman, you and your therapist obsession, lol! I'm not crazy. I don't need a therapist to tell me how to think, and mines a dolt (but she's all I got). And you know what, a lot of therapists who are feminists and have studied gender issues would agree with me. This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".
Abby I never said that at all. I was just saying how my questions were answered, nothing else. :(
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 04, 2014, 04:31:49 PM
Abby I never said that at all. I was just saying how my questions were answered, nothing else. :(
Ohh, please don't take offense, I'm just feeling sassy. I love you, girl, you know that ;)
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.
At the end of the day though, you don't have to do or be any of those things if you don't wish to. Yes, society does pressure women to act stupid and shallow, and does cast an eye of suspicion on women who are unabashed by their intelligence. But society can't make that choice for you. I reached a point where in terms of gender roles, I truly didn't fit in as a female or a male. As a female, I was a little too headstrong, a little too low-maintenance, a little too lesbian. As a guy, I'm a little too timid (yes, despite being seen as a badass female), a little too much into the music of Katy Perry, and a little too gay-appearing (yes, despite being read as a lesbian constantly as a girl). But it's me. I'm a man, and society sees me as such. Could I change to be a manly man? I'd probably get more social acceptance. But to me, it really isn't worth it. I'd rather deal with ignorant people who think I'm too effeminate as a male, and find out whop my real friends are. Because my real friends love me, no matter how much I perform the role that is expected of a man.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
See, look at me? I can write like a grown up. I'm not an idiot. I'm intelligent. But I portray myself as this image...this image of a dopey, doe eyed 19 year old girl for the sake of fitting in. Because society tells me 19 year old girls are stupid and vapid, so I emulate that and I lose so much of myself in it. Lots of us do.
It's because we're told that this is how one gender is supposed to act...and in trying to escape one crappy stereotype we run toward another, or at least many of us do. Instead of saying "->-bleeped-<- you" to both sides.
And my god, woman, you and your therapist obsession, lol! I'm not crazy. I don't need a therapist, and mines a dolt, but she's all I got. And you know what, all of therapists who are feminists and have studied gender issues would agree with me. This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".
Yeah it's pretty great to just start being you for you and not care about these ridiculous gender roles. They are ridiculous and harmful too. Even if they're trends, they sure as heck shouldn't be roles. They sure as heck shouldn't be getting imposed on anyone. People do it subconsciously even too, on others and on themselves. One a,azing thing to me has been how much policing i have gotten on this very site since deciding to be a boy. Even trans people have a very narrow field of acceptance... So i don't know, I am a boy with a basically female body, who has long hair and girl's clothes and accessories and is feminine and crazy and and emotional and can also be really thoughtful and intelligent and on occasion, badass too. :) None of those things are wrong and i won't apologize for them either. If people stereotype me, then screw that... not worth spending time thinking about.
Transition would have been necessary for me even in the absence of social dysphoria, because for me it was at least somewhat about what my body looked and acted like in the absence of other people. I'm comfortable with that, and with the fact that my narrative will be misused to support the binary (I'm not HAPPY about that fact, but I'm not going to lie so as to not give ammunition to those people who claim trans people reinforce the binary - it's catch-22 anyway, since if I do lie, those same people use it as proof that trans people are liars).
Similarly, I agree that getting obsessed with every detail of your body and comparing it to a cis person's is a good way to drive yourself nuts. However... my body IS about 99% what I wanted in terms of gendered traits. If I'd been born with a uterus and ovaries, I'd be lobbying to have them removed, and I can't see my chromosomes so aside from occasional mopey moments that doesn't bug me either. (The 1% is that I do have a bit of brow bossing, though to be honest my mother does too, if less.) I get frustrated sometimes when the generalizations come out about how no trans person can ever be content or be "close enough" or whatever, because not everyone is cut from the same mold.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:28:21 PM
This is about perspective, please let me share mine without saying "you're crazy, go away".
I will be the one to go away. Sorry to interfere in your topic. Take care. :(
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 04, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
I will be the one to go away. Sorry to interfere in your topic. Take care. :(
Don't be like thaat, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings :( I think you're great and I always value your input and perspective. I just feel like sometimes I get buried under therapy suggestions because I'm maybe not 100%...mentally okay. But this isn't one of those times, is all I meant. You know?
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?
Sorry, I didn't see that part earlier. I don't think someone should kill themselves because they are dysphoric. You don't have to transition to be a man or a woman, but I think it's awfully hard to feel entirely content with yourself if you are trans and can't transition, regardless of the reason. I've wondered a few times what I'd do if for whatever reason I had to stay female...I would have stayed alive, because I'm stubborn and weird and drag things out to the very end lol. And I'd have done my best to be happy in as many areas of my life as possible. But that doesn't mean the dysphoria would have ever gone away. I'm happy for people who don't have dysphoria, regardless of how they got there - if they can be happy with no transition, or a "partial" transition (as in, not doing certain surgeries or procedures), more power to them. But that doesn't mean people who need to go "all the way" and have all the surgeries are doing anything wrong either. Some people have severe gender dysphoria which can only be relieved by medical transition, and for those who can get it, there's nothing wrong in seeking that. For those who can't for whatever reason, I would hope they could be happy with themselves, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did cause some sense of wrongness or unhappiness within themselves.
I guess the point is that it differs for each one of us and that we all have to be careful and empathetic when considering this. I really don't like absolutes and believe it's up to everyone to find their own path, but often the trans community has definitive answers for individuals that might not fit their solutions. It's just I can't see myself personally being happy without transitioning at some point and can't imagine the hypothetical scenario of a world free of gender roles. Would I feel this way? Would the body dysphoria exist or is it part of the social conditioning? How can any of us objectively answer that without experiencing this world? Personally, it's way too hard for me to assume, but it's certainly "possible" that I would feel differently under alternative conditions. However, I can only really know for sure about how feel at this time. At this moment, I do see a path that doesn't involve transition that allows me to feel free or happy in some sense. That doesn't mean that what's right for me is right for another person and vice versa. That's why I say "do as thou wilt". We all have to follow our hearts and do what's best for ourselves.
As for those who can't medically transition, no they shouldn't kill themselves. I know some great people that have much to contribute to this world that can't transition. I won't put myself in their shoes and say whats best for them, but like everyone else, they need to find their own meaning and path under those circumstances. They set their own course, just like you do, just like I do and every one else does. I just don't think there is any acceptable solution we can apply to anyone else, these things have to come from within the individual themselves which is why I caution everyone to think about their path before setting forward.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?
Unfortunately, there are some on this board in this very predicament. The way I see it, trans people have always been around. And most couldn't do anything about it through the centuries. Especially female borns. Male borns could more easily cut off the T (ouch :P). The female body was a lot harder to do much about. While I know some women lived as men before modern medicine, that wouldn't have been an option due to my face and tits.
I think gender role changes may have helped alleviate some of the pain in earlier times and cultures. And some cultures made allowances for this. Those of us who can make medical changes are really very lucky.
I don't know where you got the notion any of us were saying that anyone unable to transition or decides not to is invalid. I don't see one person saying that at all on here.
You're defending those who don't want to or can't transition by condemning those who are transitioning and feel apart of the binary. Why invalidate anyone at all? Why are you invalidating those feel they fit the binary? This just feels like more policing imho.
No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can. It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves. They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them. Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone. Not remotely. Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently. Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work.
I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.
Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?
It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.
"No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can. It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves. They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them. Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone. Not remotely. Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently. Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work."
Yes, precisely this. Brilliantly put.
I'm not in the business of telling other people how to live their lives; I have my hands full figuring out my own. :)
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 04, 2014, 05:01:12 PM
I don't know where you got the notion any of us were saying that anyone unable to transition or decides not to is invalid. I don't see one person saying that at all on here.
You're defending those who don't want to or can't transition by condemning those who are transitioning and feel apart of the binary. Why invalidate anyone at all? Why are you invalidating those feel they fit the binary? This just feels like more policing imho.
No one is answering your what should those who can't transition but wish to do, because no one can. It's tragic, and heartbreaking and only ones that can answer the question of what they should do are themselves. They need to find their own solution, the one that works for them. Because no matter what solution anyone presents here, it won't work for everyone. Not remotely. Everyone is different, and experiences their dysphoria differently. Using a blanket solution to fix everyone in one category will never work.
Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!
The idea was to establish whether transition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition is often performed in a way that validates said binary. Ergo, transgender people hurt themselves by helping themselves.
Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:01:32 PM
I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.
Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?
It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.
I think it's a question that can only be answered by those found in those situations. I don't want to speak for them because I can't imagine being in their shoes. the existentialist in me says that individuals create meaning for themselves. Like I said, I only know how to speak for myself and my own feelings.
Before we go too far with the topic of those who can't transition, I would just caution everyone to remember that this is getting into a topic that may be very sensitive to people in that situation. Please let us remember there are many of them that exist in this world and be respectful of their feelings in this debate as well. Sorry, I just have to say this in advance.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:07:58 PM
Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!
The idea was to establish whether trasition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition I often performed in a way that validates said binary. Those desiring transition are some of the most affected by it.
Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.
Oh, that I can agree with for the most part. Transition isn't something that "must be done". I think that's a flawed premise and something I would never advise on this site. Sadly, I do see the transition fix all solution getting proposed a lot. It's not going to solve everything and it hasn't for me. It's a different question to say "do you feel it was neccessary for you" and to say "it is neccessary for everyone. Most of us answered the first and would agree with you point on the later.
Also? I've established a gajillion times why binary thinking is harmful. They say all dichotomies are false dichotomies, and it's true. Saying it's coolio to fit into the binary implies that manner of thinking should exist to begin with. If it's harmful, why should it?
It's like saying people should accept racism because not everyone has to be a racist if they don't feel that way. Racism is still bad, even if you are one.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:07:58 PM
Negative. I am not. I said multiple times that I support anyones right to transition. The premise of the argument wasn't about whether people who want to transition should be able to. Helllo, 6 months on E, here!
The idea was to establish whether transition is necessary. Why. Why not. And whether it should or shouldn't be. The goal being to argue that it shouldn't be necessary for those who are transgender but would prefer NOT to transition to remain sane. The manner of achieving this is to quit validating the binary. Transition is often performed in a way that validates said binary. Ergo, transgender people hurt themselves by helping themselves.
Quite a conundrum. But the only solution is change. That means challenging the trans narrative, sadly.
Then what is it you are suggesting? If the act of transitioning hurts us while helps us, then what is it you suggest we do?
You support everyone's right to transition, which I fully believe and am not saying you don't, but if transitioning for most only furthers the binary, then what should be done differently? If a transwoman truly enjoys wearing dresses and make-up for her own reasons, and not because they are associated with a feminine stereotype should she not wear them? Or should she be true to herself regardless?
To answer your question about if it is necessary, depends. For some, it is very necessary, for others it's not. Like those who decide and choose not to transition. Transitioning is not necessary for them. For others it is fully necessary.
I've done my best to explain my position and that's all I can do. This is my life and I'm choosing my own path. Everyone else chooses their own and it's not important to me how they lead their life nor should it be important to others about how I lead mine. It's as simple as that, so I don't see why there needs to be judgement of binaries when most are stating people should be free to be themselves, whatever that is. Shouldn't that opinion go both ways? Either way, that's what I see on this site, support of people of all stripes within the trans community and that's what we should be here. In any case, it's been an interesting discussion but I don't feel I can add anything else to this discussion and will leave with that.
I'm not really sure. Maybe not pressure everyone so much into transition, for starters, but instead see if they can find ways to express their gender identity and make an example of the complexity of identity, itself. Because it's not right for everybody. Medically changing your body is a big deal, you know, it's no small thing. Give a little more attention to non-transitioners and non-binaries instead of sweeping them under the rug because they don't go with the image. And, hey, give a little more spotlight to the Lana Wachowski's of the world instead of just the Carmen Carrera's.
Or hell, even the Sad Panda's. Good example. Pretty dude with boobs who wears makeup, girls clothes, and has long hair. But still a dude, because that's who he is. Show that there's a difference between all of these things we've discussed...identity, roles, presentation, body image, varying degrees of dysphoria/comfort levels and find some way to bring them all together. Starting with smashing roles all together.
I feel like if I lived in a different society...I'm not sure what I'd want to do. And I bet a lot of people wouldn't be. On one hand I like the idea of being content with the body I was given. Having parts that work the way they should. Cohesion. It's natural and simple. And if gender roles weren't so rigid, then I may not mind the mismatch so much. Because I could express myself however I liked without editing my body in drastic ways. Which is ultimately preferable for many, I imagine. However, at the same time, if gender roles weren't so enforced transitioning itself would be easier for those who still wanted to go that route, because there would be less judgment in it.
All I know is...transitioning into a massive stereotype, does absolutely nothing to cure that stereotype...in other words, I'm part of the problem and thusly a hypocrite. But I'm a hypocrite who knowss I'm a hypocrite.
And I know it sounds idealistic. And it probably won't happen in your lifetime or even mine. But I kind of like to think that's how change happens. Doing what you can to make an impact on the future, even if you'll never see the results.
but then again im just a dumb 19 year old girl and i shouldnt talk about this stuff cuz i have noo idea what im saying lolz
Not dumb at all sweetie. It's a good question. I think there are peeps who for whom transition wouldn't be necessary in an accepting world and those for whom it still would. I'm one of the latter (unless I internalized gender roles at a young age to the point I had physical dysphoria).
Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 05:54:17 PM
(unless I internalized gender roles at a young age to the point I had physical dysphoria).
That's the question, isn't it xD
What Abby is raising here is the idea that one of the fundamental binaries of our society, man/woman, is also fundamentally harming our society.
Often when we talk about gender, we talk about a spectrum. Basically that means a line going from "man" on one side to "woman" on the other. Everyone in-between is termed "non-binary." People who don't fit into either of the two standard, normative models. Attached to those concepts of "man" and "woman" are a whole slew of ideas of what they are, ranging from body parts, to ideas and actions, to roles in society, to biological function. It's one of the really, really fundamental divides we acknowledge.
However, over time with the assistance of science, we have slowly discovered that fewer and fewer of the things traditionally associated with one gender or the other has any basis in "nature," but instead is an artificial construct of our society. It has then been argued, and in many cases proven, that these issues have caused harm to individuals within our society. For example, something as simple as the fact that men whose wives earn more than them are more likely to commit suicide. That is evidence of the gender binary doing damage to people. That trying to squish people into these binary models causes a great deal of misery, death, loss and pain. Including for many trans people.
Some people, like Abby, have suggested that doing away with the binary entirely is necessary to move forward. And that any effort to support it's continued existence is problematic. I.e. that simply offering the space in between man and woman for people who don't fit is insufficient. That instead we should see gender as something far more amorphous and non-linear. Some have suggested seeing it as a galaxy of points, with each person making a unique decision regarding how they prefer to present and be regarded. Others have suggested that the path should be towards minimizing the value of gender entirely--stripping away more and more things that we place into the gender binary. I.e. making clothing non-gendered or encouraging the use of genderless pronouns.
The problem for trans people is that we are frequently forced into an awkward situation where we are pushing out certain pieces of the binary. I.e. we are almost exclusively responsible for the concept that your chromosomes and sex characteristics don't necessarily determine your gender. While at the same time we frequently aggressively uphold other types of binary thinking: in an effort to validate ourselves, to reclaim lost opportunities, to fit in better with our target gender, to be perceived as cis, and other reasons. It is also one of the things that most frequently places us at odds with the concerns of cis LGB folks, many of whom are fighting against the same binary gender issues that we support, while supporting the same binary gender issues that we are fighting.
It is easy to say "I'm just feminine and binary, that's how I am" (or "I'm just masculine and binary, that's how I am"). But that COMES from somewhere. Nobody just likes a thing for no reason. There is ALWAYS a reason. Even if you don't know what it is. And even if you don't know what it is, I bet I can tell you where it comes from. Because it all comes from the same place, from our society, from the binary itself. It is essentially impossible to escape. Even those of us who actively work against the binary, we still exist in relationship to it. It's just that massive and that big a thing in our world. Sexism is an endlessly ongoing battle, the binary is the basis on which sexism exists in the first place. It means fighting how we perceive other people on the most basic level. Being constantly aware of what gendered behaviours you have or opinions you hold, and considering what they mean and how you express yourself.
And even then you WILL get sucked in, even more so because of the added pressure of being trans. And that process of being sucked in, leads quite a few trans people to make decisions against their own self-interest. To choose interventions of their lives and bodies that bring them to harm. Because we, like the binary categories of man/woman, present transition as this boxed package of "all the things you need to do to be better." And anyone who can't achieve it... they hurt for that, on top of any hurts they may already have. The issue isn't so much "what about people who can't transition?" in the sense of "shouldn't we accept them"? It's "what about people who can't transition" in the sense of what our little community of transitioners makes them feel--failures as men or women. Much like many non-binaries force themselves into binary categories to avoid that feeling of failure. Because it is expected, it is normal, it is the "right" way to do things > HRT, wear girl/boy clothes and makeup/no-makeup, change your IDs, live as a man/woman, get surgery, forget you are trans.
And if you fit that pattern? Why do you fit it, nah? Because it is right for you? Or because it is right enough? Or because it is the path of least resistance? Or maybe it is perfect for you, and you love it. Great. But try to remember how many people get mangled in the system that is right for you. The argument here isn't that you SHOULD NOT do those things. I mean, I am pretty close to the living embodiment of that path, and I'm pretty happy with it. And I will fight tooth and nail to let any person do whatever they desire with their life and their body. But you should choose it as an individual, as a personal path. Not as part of a system that hurts other members of our society.
Jen, it doesn't need to be that I am non-binary and you are binary. It might simply be that you chose one path that entailed a certain set of things. And I took a different path that entailed a another set of things. That there is no true dichotomy there. Just people, blundering around trying to find what bits and pieces fit for them.
And that is what, in the end, Abby is pointing at. That the brutal truth is: none of us fit. That is what makes us trans. None of us fit any more or less than any other. We are all the flotsam and jetsam of a broken system, binary or non-binary, post-op or non-op, transitioner or non-transitioner. None of us fit the traditional model for "man" or "woman." Otherwise we wouldn't be here.
Finally, I hope nobody will be offended by my words. It is not my intention, and I apologize sincerely if you are hurt by them. I only wish to maybe suggest you think about it. To keep your eyes and your mind open in this world. To try to protect yourself, even if for no other reason. All my love,
Sarah
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 04:43:41 PM
But, yeah, everybody keeps talking about the physical end but nobody has answered my question about people who are unable to ever medically transition. Should they like...just kill themselves?
Like trans people before the 20th century... they cope. Like we all did before we transitioned. Human beings can cope with almost any possible situation. It's how we evolved. This doesn't mean we aren't suffering; it just means we're focusing on something else.
You know what, who knows? Maybe there's a way for most trans people to not only cope, but thrive with the bodies they have. Who am I to discount possibility? Yet with half a decade of introspection, I haven't found anything that lasts.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:42:30 PM
I'm not really sure. Maybe not pressure everyone so much into transition, for starters, but instead see if they can find ways to express their gender identity and make an example of the complexity of identity, itself. Because it's not right for everybody, you know.nMedically changing your body is a big deal, you know, it's no small thing. Give a little more attention to non-transitioners and non-binaries instead of sweeping them under the rug because they don't go with the image. And, hey, give a little more spotlight to the Lana Wachowski's of the world instead of just the Carmen Carrera's.
Or hell, even the Sad Panda's. Good example. Pretty dude with boobs who wears makeup, girls clothes, and has long hair. But still a dude, because that's who he is. Show that there's a difference between all of these things we've discussed...identity, roles, presentation, body image, varying degrees of dysphoria/comfort levels and find some way to bring them all together. Starting with smashing roles all together.
I feel like if I lived in a different society...I'm not sure what I'd want to do. And I bet a lot of people wouldn't be. On one hand I like the idea of being content with the body I was given. Having parts that work the way they should. Cohesion. It's natural and simple. And if gender roles weren't so rigid, then I may not mind the mismatch so much. Because I could express myself however I liked without editing my body in drastic ways. Which is ultimately preferable for many, I imagine. However, at the same time, if gender roles weren't so enforced transitioning itself would be easier for those who still wanted to go that route, because there would be less judgment in it.
All I know is...transitioning into a massive stereotype, does absolutely nothing to cure that stereotype...in other words, I'm part of the problem and thusly a hypocrite. But I'm a hypocrite who knowss I'm a hypocrite.
And I know it sounds idealistic. And it probably won't happen in your lifetime or even mine. But I kind of like to think that's how change happens. Doing what you can to make an impact on the future, even if you'll never see the results.
but then again im just a dumb 19 year old girl and i shouldnt talk about this stuff cuz i have noo idea what im saying lolz
Maybe we have run in other circles, but I haven't seen anyone pushing anyone else to transition on here. I hear claims that it happens in the trans community, but haven't witnessed it myself yet so I can only go off what I have seen, which is people being supportive to those who don't fit and are figuring it out still or deciding what they should do.
Transitioning is a huge decision that I don't really think many people makes lightly. Definitely not something that should be made lightly, and it has to be made personally for every person. We should to do what is right for us, whether that is transitioning, or not transitioning. Sad Panda's example is great. For the reason you stated, that's who he is. And those who are similar to him so explore that. It may work for them. What if it doesn't work for them though? We can't push that on people anymore than we can push transitioning on them. We can only encourage people to find what works for them.
And that has to include transitioning as much as not transitioning. Just because transitioning is right for someone, doesn't invalidate them, or mean they were pushed into it, or are the enemy for inadvertently promoting a stereotype. Transitioning to physically match the gender they identify with; to be a boy in a boy body, or a girl in a girl body doesn't make them any more or less than those that don't transition and remain a boy is a girl body, or a girl in a boy body.
By making transitioning out to be a huge issue that does more harm than good does invalidate those for who it is the right path. Those who need it to be themselves truly. Some don't need it, some do. Both should be free to do what they need to in order to be themselves and not belittled because by doing so, by choosing to transition it also happens to support a gender binary in the views of society.
Yes I fully agree with you in a better society, a less restrictive society, many may not chose to transition, but many still well. All depends on what is right for them, and nothing more. A person isn't a hypocrite or wrongly promoting stereotypes because they transition. Sad Panda is a great example, but doesn't work for everyone. It's right for Sad Panda. And transitioning is right for someone else. Both are valid and neither is wrong for doing what they need to.
Sarah...I so much agree I can't even like...wow, just wow, dude! That was awesome. Very eloquent, it's like you gave the perfect shape to the concepts I was trying to convey on every point. Like that post actually made me emotional to read because it's literally one of the first things I have read in I don't know how long that I completely agreed with.
I'm pretty stunned at the general brilliance, there.
The way I see it, transition shouldn't be necessary, should it? I mean, yeah, it should be something we can do if we want to...but it shouldn't be something we have to feel is so necessary. And it shouldn't be so major.
When I was younger, it was not absolutely necessary for me to transition. I could suck it up to where it just bothered me occasionally and I found ways to cope, including denial, shame and guilt. I didn't want to be a freaking transsexual. No effing way. I feared what would happen if I ever tried going there, and I did not so much as wear women's clothing until age 43. (But I always wanted to from a young age.)
The dysphoria got so bad that it began to consume my thoughts and the girl in my head became impossible to ignore. I literally heard a voice in my head that screamed "SEX CHANGE!!!" all day long. I felt incredibly conflicted about it all, mostly due to fear of the unknown. I began to drink heavily, and a few times I tried to get so drunk that I wouldn't wake up. Well, I failed. So much for plan "A".
Plan "B" was to get a therapist. I really didn't want to have to transition and I hoped that my problem was something other than being transgender, so I tried the estrogen, which unfortunately turned out to be the magic bullet for me. I was able to get off the antidepressants and antianxiety meds. Originally I thought that I could just take a little E and still just be a guy socially and wear girly stuff in private when I wanted to, but it didn't work. After some weeks of sober introspection, I felt that a full transition would really be best for me. I hated everything about being a dude and realized that every step I took towards feminization felt exactly right. The girlier I was, the happier I was, so I continued on the transition path.
I didn't choose transition as much as it chose me, I guess.
I am sure I didn't make myself clear. I am saying I happen to fit into the binary model, for whatever reason. I don't even understand fundamentally why. Maybe I was born to be this way, maybe it's what I wanted and that bias drove me to be this way, and it worked out. I don't even know. I don't even know if it is relevant, in fact I think probably it isn't. But I am this way. I do fit the binary model. I can't help it, or if I can idc it's who I am and I am happy with it. I felt like people were saying it wasn't okay to be how I am. I don't appreciate anybody telling me that. I don't ask much from anybody, but I do ask, I am adamant actually, that you let me be who I am and not try to make me feel bad about it.
The issue of the binary model in society is a separate issue from fitting it, or, in other words, somebody telling me I should not be how I am. I get that the whole system is a social construct and that it causes great, great harm for people that don't fit into it, psychological and physical, and it's awful. If you read what I said, you will see that I never said I am in favor of this prevailing model, because I wouldn't say that, I just said I fit it, because I do. Does the binary system benefit me personally because I happen to fit into it? Maybe in some ways. It also has lost me many loved ones because they felt that just by being trans I was challenging it, and therefore I was now human garbage. It doesn't feel good. Actually it really hurts. I will never tell you the social construct of gender should be adhered to, or that the whole system isn't harmful. That was never my point.
However, don't tell me I can't be who I am. The whole point of transition is to find who we are and be authentic as we can to whatever that is. If that isn't your goal in your transition, then you are doing it wrong. I will not have people on a site that has been there to support me through my transition tell me I should be somebody I am not because it isn't like them or it happens, by luck or whatever, to be supported by a system they don't like, that I also acknowledge is harmful. If you do that, you are no better than my loved ones that have turned their backs on me for trying to be myself.
If I am dense, and not understanding something, then fine. I am sorry. But I am just telling you how all of this is making me feel. Which is... kind of sad, I guess? :(
This subject again... I don't want to step on any toes, but if anything is going to kill our chances of being accepted into society, it'll be the trend of "we'd all be fine if not for gender roles."
For some people, if gender roles did not exist, they would probably be fine. Maybe even most. Who knows. If gender roles were gone, would it help us? Yes, absolutely. Would it solve our problems? No. Would we still transition? Some might not. But gender roles do not explain the severely stressful disconnect between brain and body. Not all people experience this disconnect. For some, it's not so bad. For others, it's brutal. Even if gender roles were switched - not just gone! - I would still be transgender, I would just be an unusual man. I don't "feel like a guy." I am a guy.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 05:01:32 PM
I think it's awfully hard to be trans and feel content with yourself, period, but it can be done.
Soo, what I'm getting is...people who can't transition can still find happiness? Interesting. Would it ease the burden to socially transition? And if they passed well, could they be equally happy to a medically transitioned transperson, despite not making alterations to their body?
It's interesting because this the nuance to the debate. Beyond the narrative.
If it's so easy to be trans and feel content with yourself, why are you here? Just because you couldn't handle it doesn't mean the others on here are on a path to failure. If you can't find contentment, that is your issue to deal with, your path to pursue.
I couldn't care about social roles, gender roles and how most of the world perceives me. I transitioned because my body map did not match what I knew to be right. I transitioned to be me, an authentic me and not some git who was angry at what nature had done to me.
You must live a sheltered life if you think that people fit into a binary. Nature doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't have sea slugs that could photosynthesize like plants, or male seahorses that gave birth.
If you want to fit your binary, thats on you. Don't make the mistake that Trans people are sheeple and with suddenly realise they are doing something wrong. The biggest reason for transition was stated quite eloquently by William Shakespeare:- This above all: to thine own self be true.
Quote from: Rainbow Brite on May 04, 2014, 10:18:15 PM
If it's so easy to be trans and feel content with yourself, why are you here? Just because you couldn't handle it doesn't mean the others on here are on a path to failure. If you can't find contentment, that is your issue to deal with, your path to pursue.
I couldn't care about social roles, gender roles and how most of the world perceives me. I transitioned because my body map did not match what I knew to be right. I transitioned to be me, an authentic me and not some git who was angry at what nature had done to me.
You must live a sheltered life if you think that people fit into a binary. Nature doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't have sea slugs that could photosynthesize like plants, or male seahorses that gave birth.
If you want to fit your binary, thats on you. Don't make the mistake that Trans people are sheeple and with suddenly realise they are doing something wrong. The biggest reason for transition was stated quite eloquently by William Shakespeare:- This above all: to thine own self be true.
Just to let you know Abbyxo is against the binary, not for it. One of her big points here is for the abolishment of a harmful binary system.
Before everyone explodes, please remember we are all on the site for one thing and that's support. This should be true no matter where you fall on the spectrum. Please don't let this turn into a war when we really shouldn't be fighting each other. Personally, I felt very judged as a binary today and that hurts considering all the support that I try to give on this site to everyone regardless of where one sits on that spectrum (I know I'm a mess up and can't do much to help other people but I try really hard regardless), but I really hope we can all move passed this discussion. We all have the right and freedom to be who we are, whatever that may be. Please let's support each other for who we are and not battle against each other. Please.
Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 09:44:34 PM
I am sure I didn't make myself clear. I am saying I happen to fit into the binary model, for whatever reason. I don't even understand fundamentally why. Maybe I was born to be this way, maybe it's what I wanted and that bias drove me to be this way, and it worked out. I don't even know. I don't even know if it is relevant, in fact I think probably it isn't. But I am this way. I do fit the binary model. I can't help it, or if I can idc it's who I am and I am happy with it. I felt like people were saying it wasn't okay to be how I am. I don't appreciate anybody telling me that. I don't ask much from anybody, but I do ask, I am adamant actually, that you let me be who I am and not try to make me feel bad about it.
The issue of the binary model in society is a separate issue from fitting it, or, in other words, somebody telling me I should not be how I am. I get that the whole system is a social construct and that it causes great, great harm for people that don't fit into it, psychological and physical, and it's awful. If you read what I said, you will see that I never said I am in favor of this prevailing model, because I wouldn't say that, I just said I fit it, because I do. Does the binary system benefit me personally because I happen to fit into it? Maybe in some ways. It also has lost me many loved ones because they felt that just by being trans I was challenging it, and therefore I was now human garbage. It doesn't feel good. Actually it really hurts. I will never tell you the social construct of gender should be adhered to, or that the whole system isn't harmful. That was never my point.
However, don't tell me I can't be who I am. The whole point of transition is to find who we are and be authentic as we can to whatever that is. If that isn't your goal in your transition, then you are doing it wrong. I will not have people on a site that has been there to support me through my transition tell me I should be somebody I am not because it isn't like them or it happens, by luck or whatever, to be supported by a system they don't like, that I also acknowledge is harmful. If you do that, you are no better than my loved ones that have turned their backs on me for trying to be myself.
If I am dense, and not understanding something, then fine. I am sorry. But I am just telling you how all of this is making me feel. Which is... kind of sad, I guess? :(
I think you are perfect as you are, Jen.
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 10:35:47 PM
I think you are perfect as you are, Jen.
And I, you <3
Gender roles are not the reason for my needing to transition. The fact that my body is deformed for a man is.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 05, 2014, 04:31:34 AM
Gender roles are not the reason for my needing to transition. The fact that my body is deformed for a man is.
Same for me. It's always been a body dysmorphic feeling that I can remember having as far back as 8y/o.
Transition has greatly helped to alleviate that mental itch, and I no longer feel ashamed for wanting my body to be different than what I was genetically given.
If society were more open to non-binary, I might have gone for a more androgynous presentation because I never cared so much about having breasts at all. However, I have always pined over having larger hips and a feminine face.
Mentally, I feel that I don't really identify with any specific gender identification. I don't really seem to care. I am me. I love doing what I love to do and it is quite a mix of ebb and flow from "male" to "female" and everything in between.
Firstly, to the sheltered comment, all I can say is screw you. Sorry, I've been trying to be civil but my life has been the opposite of sheltered, I've lived more than people 5 times my age. And if you
actually *read* my comments, babe? You'll see how laughably idiotic yours is considering I spent like 90% bashing the binary.
Anyway, here's the problem I see in this thread and this community, and I can recognize my part in it. It's a one size fits all narrative that so many of you regurgitate without even thinking. Okay, yeah, for you it may very well be a body
issue, granted. And in another kind of society you may still WANT to transition. But you also might not. The body issue may have come about as a result of pressure from gender norms. We have no way of knowing.
And even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find
peace. Not that this binary thinking narrative that tells them they can't makes it easy on them.
And you can moo and moan about my points and say they're invalidating all you like. It doesn't take away that the very fact that we live in a society that makes transition waay harder than it should be is a large part of why we need to in the first place. Not that we shouldn't be able to, either way...I'm all for body modification. Just that it shouldn't feel like life or death.
Go ahead..read that, get your rage up, react instead of listening. I'll wait.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 07:45:28 AM
And even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find peace.
Have to argue this point. If those who can't transition for one reason or another are at peace then why is the suicide rate so high?
The answer is that for some transition IS a live or die situation.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 07:58:41 AM
Have to argue this point. If those who can't transition for one reason or another are at peace then why is the suicide rate so high?
The answer is that for some transition IS a live or die situation.
Umm, because the pressure is still there? And then add in the pressure from the trans* community. They don't belong to a society or community that allows them to find peace with their bodies. But that's a bit touchy to bring up, don't you think? Considering the members who can't transition, let's respect their feelings too *hug*
Also, to the others, binary bashing isn't bashing the identities that adhere to it. On the contrary. It celebrates them. But as one of many. Not a standard to appeal to that causes isolation and pressure to conform for those who don't. It should be one of many threads in a diverse tapestry.
Can't yousee the arrogance? My identity superficially appeals to the binary, and thus the system is validated even if it harms others..
Your opposition says...my identity doesn't appeal to the binary and thus I am told I should conform, be an outcast, or cease to exist.
When in reality each identity, though different from one another, should be allowed to coexist without one being portrayed as standard. Like Jen, who you are is awesome and amazing and beautiful and shouldn't change one bit...but it's not better than who anyone else is. And I know you're not saying it is, at all, but saying that it's binary and that's somehow a good thing, does indirectly say that.
None of you are dense. None of you have had average lives, evidently, or you wouldn't be here. I won't assume you're...sheltered. So you can obviously grasp this if you try.
Abby,
No one is saying you don't have valid points. It's just we aren't the enemy nor are you mine though some of the phrasing is very targeted. I can only live my own life and strive to get what I want out of it. I'm miserable and would like to finally find peace, that's all. I wish the same for others here, including you, whether they are binary or not. Everyone should find their own path that suits them and we shouldn't dictate the path they pursue. I'm not here to dictate what they do and will always support people finding their own way. That was all I wished to say. Maybe people like me fail on here, but many of us support non-binary's here and allow them to choose their own fate. And I may fail at that on a personal level, but I wish it would be acknowledged that many of us try to do our part and help others find their own way. That's all I can do as person. I'm not the system nor are the other binaries here.
In any case Abby, I wish you well and hope the rest of your transition goes well. I don't want to be your enemy and fight with you. I'll apologize for any personal failures and continue to try and do my best while on here. It's all I can do.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:10:44 AM
Your opposition says...my identity doesn't appeal to the binary and thus I am told I should conform, be an outcast, or cease to exist.
I don't oppose anyone or what they want to be at all. I am simply explaining how some have a biological or other urge which makes transition necessary. Society certainly had no impact on my transition, I did it for me to ease my medical symptoms.
I won't assume you're...sheltered. So you can obviously grasp this if you try.
This was very insulting to me personally. I am not sheltered or stupid and have worked the streets for 28 years learning more than the average person does. I have seen much more of life's tragedies and loss than probably you have.
I just, I think it's funny how transpeople shoot themselves in the foot you know? And eat their own. You throw non-binary people under the bus in favor of transsexuals for the same reason the LGBT community throws transsexuals under the bus in favor of gays, for the same reason cishets throw gays under the bus. It's these layers...fold after fold that trickle down, and it's all for appealing to an f-ed up sense of normalcy.
It is normalcy, too! What's our slogan? We're just normal people. Who are our darlings? Beautiful young women. We complain about bigotry but validate that bigotry by trying desperately to appeal to an ideal that is responsible for it...and we never will, not as long as that standard exists.
And you know, instead we could say screw that ideal, let's make change this time. Let's solve the problem at a fundamental level. Pull it out from the roots instead of scratching the surface through our transition and PR campaigns.
But you won't do that. Because it takes one person to do it and another person to follow. And nobody is going to be that first person, or the one to go off with the loner, on principle. And neither will I, probably. I'm a pretty, uber passable girl, I'll probably end up going stealth one day. The ultimate hypocrisy. Demand change in words but live a life of actions that are anti-thetical to these principles. When, really, it's actions that matter.
So I guess that's it, then. Not much left to say. I'm hurting myself by trying to help myself the same as all you. Except I'm able to feel the pain, and that's what sucks.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:10:44 AM
But as one of many. Not a standard to appeal to that causes isolation and pressure to conform for those who don't. It should be one of many threads in a diverse tapestry.
This I fully agree with. There shouldn't be a standard at all. Many different paths for many different people.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 08:26:15 AM
I just, I think it's funny how transpeople shoot themselves in the foot you know? And eat their own. You throw non-binary people under the bus in favor of transsexuals for the same reason the LGBT community throws transsexuals under the bus in favor of gays, for the same reason cishets throw gays under the bus. It's these layers...fold after fold that trickle down, and it's all for appealing to an f-ed up sense of normalcy.
It is normalcy, too! What's our slogan? We're just normal people. Who are our darlings? Beautiful young women. We complain about bigotry but validate that bigotry by trying desperately to appeal to an ideal that is responsible for it...and we never will, not as long as that standard exists.
And you know, instead we could say screw that ideal, let's make change this time. Let's solve the problem at a fundamental level. Pull it out from the roots instead of scratching the surface through our transition and PR campaigns.
But you won't do that. Because it takes one person to do it and another person to follow. And nobody is going to be that first person, or the one to go off with the loner, on principle. And neither will I, probably. I'm a pretty, uber passable girl, I'll probably end up going stealth one day. The ultimate hypocrisy. Demand change in words but live a life of actions that are anti-thetical to these principles. When, really, it's actions that matter.
So I guess that's it, then. Not much left to say. I'm hurting myself by trying to help myself the same as all you. Except I'm able to feel the pain, and that's what sucks.
Are you OK today sweetie? I am a little worried about you to be honest. :( PM if you need to talk. I will be here for you.
No one is throwing anyone under a bus here. People come here for support and learn how to transition. That is their choice and what you are saying is that is the wrong choice for them. No one makes them transition at all. It is free will and following what their bodies are saying is right for them. No one here has ever said if you are a member here you HAVE to transition or we will remove you. I see support for everyone from still questioning members to the whole spectrum of identities.
you have some really valid points and some interesting things to say. However, I'm a bit confused.
For on thing, you talk about transition. I think clearly defining what you mean by transition would be good. From what I've seen transition itself is a spectrum. Some people transition without surgery. Some people have some surgery but not all. Some take hormones. Some live in stealth and some don't. So when you ask if transition is necessary, what are you really asking? Are you asking if it's necessary to be binary? To have surgery? I'm not judging what you are asking, I'm honestly confused.
I think the other thing that makes this hard is that the question is that it's an either/or. Is transition necessary. I think if the conversation was more about what is transition and how does society affect your decision to society, it would be a less heated and it would maybe get to more of what you are thinking. It doesn't have to be an either/or. I think you will find people here who are going through some form of transition but are also not embracing "normalcy".
It's sad that everyone is one the defensive now. I think there's a lot of common ground within this community and in this conversation. It's hard because this is such a personal, painful journey for most of us so that fear and pain can carry over our conversations. I would love to hear about the people here who are not embracing normalcy. Who are taking their own path in some way and not being binary. Ironically, it was the knowledge that it didn't have to be binary that finally gave me the ability to begin my own transition.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 08:37:16 AM
Are you OK today sweetie? I am a little worried about you to be honest. :( PM if you need to talk. I will be here for you.
No one is throwing anyone under a bus here. People come here for support and learn how to transition. That is their choice and what you are saying is that is the wrong choice for them. No one makes them transition at all. It is free will and following what their bodies are saying is right for them. No one here has ever said if you are a member here you HAVE to transition or we will remove you. I see support for everyone from still questioning members to the whole spectrum of identities.
I am okay, Jessica, but thank you for asking, you're a sweetheart. I'm just in a weird space at the moment. And feeling maybe a liittle bipolar, haha (out god help me, if).
It's just...to be completely honest, I reaaally, really don't want to transition, haha. It just doesn't suit with...me. My inner sense of self. Not in terms of being female, because I would rather be female. I'm talking in terms of the actual process itself..changing my body this way. I never devalued my body, before, despite wanting to be female. So this...this bringing everything so out of sync with itself and its intended purpose. It's not me. It's not how I want to be.
For you guys I'm sure it's brilliant. I can picture, it must be like a godsend if you hate your body. But for me, it's not..organic, enough, I guess. It's...very..something. but I'm not brave enough not to. And it would take more bravery. I can't..be male with society being the way it is. With all the concepts on what a man is to remind me of what I would prefer to be but am not...and to remind me of a standard I can't appeal to.
And it's like. These days, everyday is different. My breasts are...uhhh...round and full and noticeable. My hairs getting longer. I'm on this path toward being..more beautiful. And I'm at a point where every day practically brings a change and I'm losing myself in it.
And then there's society again. Being what appears to be a pretty girl in this society. I feel like a liar. So inauthentic and fake. I feel obbligated to every come on, every smile,every wink, every stare. I'm fooling them into believing I'm something I'm not. But in another society none of that would matter, right? I might not have to transition in the first place, and even if I did I wouldn't have to feel fake.
So basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.
It's a luttle problem see? Just one with no manageable solution I can see.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 09:07:55 AM
I am okay, Jessica, but thank you for asking, you're a sweetheart. I'm just in a weird space at the moment. And feeling maybe a liittle bipolar, haha (out god help me, if).
It's just...to be completely honest, I reaaally, really don't want to transition, haha. It just doesn't suit with...me. My inner sense of self. Not in terms of being female, because I would rather be female. I'm talking in terms of the actual process itself..changing my body this way. I never devalued my body, before, despite wanting to be female. So this...this bringing everything so out of sync with itself and its intended purpose. It's not me. It's not how I want to be.
For you guys I'm sure it's brilliant. I can picture, it must be like a godsend if you hate your body. But for me, it's not..organic, enough, I guess. It's...very..something. but I'm not brave enough not to. And it would take more bravery. I can't..be male with society being the way it is. With all the concepts on what a man is to remind me of what I would prefer to be but am not...and to remind me of a standard I can't appeal to.
And it's like. These days, everyday is different. My breasts are...uhhh...round and full and noticeable. My hairs getting longer. I'm on this path toward being..more beautiful. And I'm at a point where every day practically brings a change and I'm losing myself in it.
And then there's society again. Being what appears to be a pretty girl in this society. I feel like a liar. So inauthentic and fake. I feel obbligated to every come on, every smile,every wink, every stare. I'm fooling them into believing I'm something I'm not. But in another society none of that would matter, right? I might not have to transition in the first place, and even if I did I wouldn't have to feel fake.
So basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.
It's a luttle problem see? Just one with no manageable solution I can see.
Yeah, ouch. All I can offer is a biiig hug. Hah, we are just too similar though.
The way you described it reminds me of another of these issues I am inescapably bound in... weight. Gotta be thin. so much pressure to be thin. So much that I hate my body, and I really want to be thin, I wanna be thinner than anyone else, cuz thin =beautiful.... most guys don't even agree with that statement. But society had been slamming this down my throat since the day i was born and in the end it doesn't matter. I have to be thin. I have to wear smaller sizes. I hate this disgusting fat body of mine. I hear and believe that it is wrong to be who I want to be in any other size. It is lesser. It is loathsome. So I'm caught in a cycle of EDs and then self harm when I screw it up, I fundamentally detest myself so much that I hurt me to punish me, over not being able to be thin, this thing that shouldn't matter anyway, and wouldn't in another culture, not one bit. There is no way i would want so dearly to be thin if I lived in one of those cultures. it's a feeling about my body but it comes from standards I inherited and so it is right out the door. It makes me hate myself to control me and it does. Even finding a peace with the trans thing, I can't let go of the being thin thing. I don't think I will ever be okay with not striving to beat my body into thinness, even if society moves on, it has become a ruler for my self worth.
I know you suffer from the same thing abby, with this issue too. It's cuz this is what they did to us. They told us what to be if we want to be the type of ourselves that matters. I want to be thin. I want to be a pretty, shallow, thin, dumb ass little lady who loves a good ride, cuz that's what society put in me. And told me i had to do that to be happily me. Cuz those are what it told me are the best versions of the labels I belong to. All I can do to fight it is not reinforce it in other people. But look what other people do to me. Even in the trans community, the place that is supposed to know all this. I mean in a weight loss community they know it's a load of BS, they know it shouldn't matter but they all desperately want to be thin anyway. The trans community doesn't even get it for the most part. I post my pretty lil face and what do I hear from trans people? You can't be a boy like that. You can't be what you were born as. liar, you don't want to detransition. Something must be crazy with you for wanting to... do what you want but I totally don't understand, I don't support your deviance. Why don't you try harder to look like a boy, stop doing things a girl does, and I'll be able to see it.
It's not that people are doing that to be nefarious. I know they are well meaning. But what kills me is they can't even tell how much they are infecting people with because they're so helplessly infected themselves. They tell themselves that if they just live as an inferior version of other people who can be all the things they want to be, they will be happy. Maybe they will, but it's not how it should be and not how it has to. Being trans is a self-hating thing. You can't get away from that. and the only way to fix it is to stop believing in it. Well, I stopped believing in it, and it's still gonna be a fight, but i have to believe that at the end of the day, the world is minutely better for my choice.
Yes...yes, yes. What we fail to realize in all our mooing about bigotry is that we're the product of that society. We were born into a society that views things this way and like it or not we've internalized so much of that to a fundamental level that even in our attempts to fight against it we try to appeal to it.
Infected is exactly the way to describe it. It's systemic and it's disgusting. And yes, weight issues as well, all of it. I know exactly how you feel. My BMI was 27 once...I look back on that with sheer and utter disgust. I remember it made me feel so inhuman. Until my BMI was 16.3 and I was nearly hospitalized for anorexia.
And you know, it never ends. I have this ideal of beauty I try desperately to appeal to. When I feel like I don't, I feel worthless. Like I have no reason to be sucking in air. When I feel like I do, it's all my worth. That image on the glass is the sum of my being. I empty out my personality for the sake of it. I downplay my intelligence because it doesn't portay a vapid ideal of the ditzy, doe eyed pretty little girl (and in the end...I'm still not enough. because I have a penis). Beauty isn't bad, not at all, it's wonderful, but it should be something personal we portray because it makes us happy...instead its an obbligation to affirm self worth.
And you know what, I don't even want this. I don't want to have to change my body this way. I'd prefer to be female but I'm not, not in the way I want to be. Can I accept that? No. Because we live in a society that says a male has to be a man. And I can't. I don't know how to be a man. Why can't I like my body, and like my face, and be male and still be soft, and feminine, and delicate? Cause society says so. So I throw it a way to make these massive, unfufilling alterations to portray an image that allows me to be myself...and I lose myself in it.
But yeah, nobody can tell you who you are SP. You don't have to cut your hair...it's lovely, so please don't! You don't have to dress a certain way or act a certain way to be a boy. So don't listen to anybody says otherwise, okay?
I'm glad I made this thread. I think we got to the core of some things, here, which is no easy task. Y'all definitely gave me some food for thought and working through this stuff was healthy.
I think...at the end...we all have the same common goal. And that's freedom. Freedom to change your body if you want. Or not! Freedom from pressure to be something you aren't. To conform to molds. Freedom to live the life that makes you happy.
And I think...some of us, or all of us, actually, get lost on the way. We don't realize exactly what it is we want or where it comes from. We're happy with the scraps we have because it's all we know. This insistence of ->-bleeped-<- as something life or death...it's looking for justification for something you have no need to justify. Changing your body is your right. And if it feels like life or death, that probably is a product of the way our society portrays gender...you may have body dysphoria, but that's probably the product of how you internalizd gender roles.
And even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.
I would like to live in an age where transition is just a cosmetic procedure. Something like plastic surgery. Something people do because it makes them feel better about themselves. A little change.
All the insistence on how horrible it is to have a wrong sexed body just proves how overblown the distinctions between us are. Maybe your body is the wrong sex, but it shouldn't be suuch a big deal. It's this dichotomy society has installed that makes you feel you are fundamentally wrong. That makes you hate your body so much. Again, not saying you wouldn't still want to change it...but it wouldn't be so major.
But yeah, our goal is the same. We all want freedom for all of this. I'm as sad to live in a society that made me feel like I had to change my body as you all are to live in one that says you shouldn't. So who's the enemy here? You have to surrender your narrative because it's the product of harmful thinking.
We'll call me old fashioned but I transitioned for the simplest of reasons, that I should have been born a girl. All throughout my younger years I knew I should have been a girl. I started going out as a teen. I lived through the abuse and BS. Later on when I got to a point where I could no longer function in society, I transitioned. I wanted to be as close to female as possible so I had the usual rounds of surgery we all hear in this site. Now I live a girls life in girl world in a girl body and I'm happy. My transition made me a happier and better balanced person more inclined to actively participate in society, meaning adopting a female role but without having to live with the trans label.
I see it as a very simple and very black and white when it comes to me personally. I should have been born a girl so I did what I needed to do. Simple to me.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:11 AM
And if it feels like life or death, that probably is a product of the way our society portrays gender...you may have body dysphoria, but that's probably the product of how you internalizd gender roles.
And even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.
I think this thread was good to, and has gotten me to consider things from a different perspective.
I just wanted to reiterate another option to this. While you are certainly correct for when it's body issues, and I think we all suffer from that to varying degrees. My point here isn't to disagree with this statement at all but add to it with a possibility that can and may often work in tandem with the body image issues.
Consider the fact that long after someone has lost a limb, and come to terms with that, the brain's expectation of the limb persists. Not finding that limb causes extreme duress which manifests as pain. We call it phantom pain and phantom limb syndrome. For some it may in time go away, for others it never does.
In short our brains expect us to physical match it's body map for us, and when there's something missing or something is different than it should be it does cause duress and pain.
We have what is called proprioceptive sense. This is our sense of ourselves. It is the sense that tells us where each and every part of our body is in relation to the rest. Close your eyes and raise your hand, its the proprioceptive sense that still lets you know your hand is above your head. Close your eyes and put your hand on your hip, or touch your noses. This sense is what allows you to do so without missing. You feel and know where each part of you is at every moment of the day, without thinking of it. We barely pay attention to this sense, give it conscious thought, because we don't have to. Our brain does it for us.
This sense is used by many areas and section of the brain, and works in conjuntion with many more. All it takes is one part to be built expecting the a different body map, one matching the gender we identify as, to cause duress that manifests as pain.
Food for thought. Personally, I don't think dysphoria is just body image issues, at least not for everyone. Conventional therapy has been proven to work for body image issues, whereas it hasn't had much of a success rate in treating trans issues or the dysphoria. There always is the possibility that for us, the body image issues are a great deal stronger and thus resist conventional therapy, but personal I think for many something else is at play, something out of our conscious mind.
There are as many ways to be transgender as there are transgender people. There is certainly no "one size fits all" approach and what works for me probably isn't going to be exactly what works for you. We are like snowflakes, some flakier than others. :P We all must do what we need to do in order to squeeze as much happiness out of life as possible.
This has been a public service announcement.
I've watched this thread, silent, from the beginning and much of it has been painful.
It reminds me of two great controversies I watched from the sidelines. In the late 60's early 70's many people in the Women's Liberation Movement invalidated the choice of other women to choose a more traditional homemaker role for themselves.
In the 80's the general cant among gays of both genders was that bisexuals were just gays too timid to commit.
Both of these were resolved in favor of more freedom. I don't expect this one to be any different. Be the transgendered that you are and respect that others will do the same.
Even though we're the "T" in "GLBT" we're not really like them. They're defined by who they love. We're not. Nothing brings us together except the need for an understanding ear and informed advice. We can be them, additionally. We have a condition that we have to deal with as best we can. Some lucky ones might come to an accommodation with our condition that allows them to walk through life without that condition being exposed. Many of us will not.
If we don't support each other unconditionally we have nothing.
im really interested in your thoughts abbyxo, since im in front of the decision of transition. But why blame society for gender roles? the gender binary is complete biological. i always read about a feminine male or masculine female but it always comes down to: cis and normal and therefore not comparable to trans. i know hetero and feminine males and no one blame them or say they are gay or something. if you change their sex you could say they are stereotype woman. they dont have problems with their gender because society is not the problem. society is a problem for being trans and not for living a gender role.
i had a gay?, maybe he was trans?, in my class. he was always on a bad mood and one day he start to polish his nails, wear pink shirts, etc., and since then he appear balanced and happy. we(my classmates and me) dont know if he was gay or trans or just different or whatever he realize and no one really care. he act like a female but no one blame him for this or thought that he have a mental problem or anything else. so for me it is far-fetched to say that you cant life the role of the opposite gender because of society. i experienced it different not just one time. so i cant say i want to transition because i have to be female to live a female role. if i just live a female role i will be accepted by society. if i start the transition the acceptance will be over. so transition because society say i am not designated to act female as a male...?
and coming back to the binary: being trans hurt the biological binary and this is why we mostly have mental issues. we could only be trans in sex and never cis. so it is a difficult question of selfacceptance. i dont see a link to society or socialization here.
greetings
Quote from: AbbyxoAnd even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.
I would like to live in an age where transition is just a cosmetic procedure. Something like plastic surgery. Something people do because it makes them feel better about themselves. A little change.
There are a whole lot of "shoulds" here; and elsewhere in your arguments, Abby.
The thing is, life isn't constructed from "should," it's constructed of "is." Sometimes what we mean by "should" is "I wish that things were different, but I recognize that they're not." But sometimes what someone means when they say that people
should feel, or act in, a certain way is that they
ought to feel or act a certain way, and that there's something wrong with them if they don't. I'm finding a lot of the latter sentiment in your arguments.
Yes, gender roles are mostly socially constructed. Yes, standards of beauty are mostly socially constructed. Yes, it would be nice if those things were less rigid than they are, and if it were easier for people to be free from the constraints that they pose. And yes, it's fine thing that some people have the energy to push back against that system, because it is possible for things to change.
Here's a little story: I got involved with the gay liberation movement over 40 years ago, when things were way worse for gays and lesbians than they are now for trans people. We wanted to change society, and we did: gay marriage is now legal in several states, including mine, and I never thought I'd live to see that. But we also wanted a revolution in the expression of sexuality: many of us saw that marriage was the product of a patriarchal system and that it had more to do with property rights than with human happiness, and we wanted to create a society in which people were free to be sexual in any way they wanted, with whoever they pleased, and in which sex roles (think butch/femme here, for starters) would be abolished.
But most gay and lesbian people didn't want that. Most people, whether they're gay or straight, just want the freedom to be themselves within society as it exists. So as it became more acceptable for gay people (and lesbians -- I just get bored with typing "g&l, g&l" over and over) to be out of the closet, the focus of the movement shifted from revolution to reform: people fought for the right to adopt children, for the right to serve in the military, and for the right to marry. Many of my lesbian friends are now married, and I'm happy for them.
But it's hard for me not to be disappointed that they want that; they
should want non-traditional relationships; they
should want to destroy the patriarchy; they
should want to smash the state. But they don't, and it's on me to accept that. Most people are conformists; they just want to fit in and be accepted by the society they live in, and that's both natural and inevitable -- if it weren't, it would be hard for any society to sustain itself, and humans evolved as social critters.
So with transgendered people; some, given their sense of who they are, don't believe in the gender binary as constructed by society, and want to smash it, and if they have the energy to work for that, fine. But if some people want to conform to gender norms as they exist, that's fine too. It's destructive and hurtful to blame them for not living up to your own ideals.
And the whole thing
isn't socially constructed. Sexual dimorphism exists as a biological reality, and that ain't gonna change. I have always wanted a male body: the bone structure, the muscles, the facial hair, the deep voice, etc. Some of what feels wrong about my body isn't fixable, but some of it is, and I will feel much more comfortable in the world when I am consistently read as male. My behavior won't change much, and that's fine. I've been gender non-conforming all my life, and I've tried my damnedest to make that work for me as a woman, and it hasn't worked.
I'm a guy, and I need a guy's body -- that's very conformist of me, and I don't give a [bleep].
Quote from: Dee MarshallIf we don't support each other unconditionally we have nothing.
Exactly.
(I'd say "That's my $0.02," but I think I'm up to about five bucks now. :icon_redface:)
If we just allowed everybody to have the agency to believe in their own nonsense we wouldn't fight as much.
Bleh, idk that is probably an easy/privileged thing for somebody that is in the less marginalized group to say. But still, most heated arguments happen because both sides won't just do that simple thing.
But it is a fact that everybody here is a part of a larger, marginalized group, and that no matter how well we fit the binary model, the outside world sees us as defying it, just for being trans. And I think it is heartening that most of the people fitting the binary here are not supporting the model itself, which btw hasn't always been true here. Maybe that isn't enough, idk.
Oh and one other thing. That the way I am undermines some of the feminist messaging makes me feel conflicted, because I am a pretty hardcore feminist, but honestly I think it is where some feminists (not the cool ones, of whom are most) get a little misguided. i feel feminism should be about working towards the ideal of women getting to be whoever and whatever they want. If a woman conforms to norms, that should be okay. Not that you would have to fight for the right to conform to norms, but if you force somebody to be something they don't want to be, then you've come so far you are now on the other side, being quite similar to what you were fighting against in the first place.
Oh and I too have apperciated the discussion. Hearing differing views to your own is how you open your mind to new ideas and perspectives.
There is a leap that people make sometimes from artificial to fake. There is this essentialist argument inside us that says if the origin was not birth, pre-birth, hardwired into the very code of our being that it is not the truth. It is not true to us.
It is what makes people say that XY = male and XX = female. Or any such nonsense.
We are born with little. No language, few thoughts. We become what we are through our world around us. Our brains shift and shape as we learn, as we grow. As we become who we are now.
Society creates us. Without it we would not think the way we do. We would not speak. We would not have hormones or surgery or any of the miraculous tools we have at our disposal to make our lives easier or better or less broken. The very concept of altering our bodies is a product of being taught that we can alter them.
Society is not evil. It is imperfect. As all things are.
That we do not fit and it wants us to fit... that is unfortunate. And uncomfortable for us. But it is as it is. Society shifts slowly, achingly slowly. And while it shifts, we live within it. There is no shame in that. No shame in being as it has made us. I do not know the origin of the pain that led to me changing my body. I know it is in my body, because all the things that I am are in my body. I know its expression has been through my society, because all the things that I do are through my society. But it does not matter. All that matters is I hurt less now than I did 5 years ago.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:11 AMAnd even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.
This does not matter. The reason why it nearly killed me makes little difference. Only the ways to stop it from happening and the ways to make it easier for the next person who must survive it. I would live in a world where nobody ever had the experience that I did. That would make me happy. But I will settle for trying to make it easier to live for myself and for others.
People sometimes idealize a "natural state" where these problems that our complex world has thrown on us would not exist. My best friend lives through the technology of this world. He would have died as a child otherwise. I, myself, am only able to function due to medication. Without it I would not be able to work or think or by now, possibly draw breathe. (No, that has nothing to do with my transsexualism.) Some of us are born broken, some of us are broken by our world. But whether accident of birth or accident of life, no pain is more or less real. Would we suggest that to be born into a wheelchair is more true than to be broken in a car accident? The same is true for us. We hurt. That is all that matters. There are just different problems and our muddled attempts to make this better, to make things hurt less.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 09:07:55 AMSo basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.
You are kind and sweet and care deeply and generously about others. That is part of what our world has made you as well.
Yes, our world has problems. And, yes, our actions often support those problems. Intentionally or not.
My best friend, it uses up hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources to keep him alive. Maybe 10 or 20 times what the average person in my wealthy country has to live on each year. If he had been born in a poor country, he would be dead. And my country is only rich because those countries are poor. It is unfortunate, and yet also fortunate.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that many things are that... complex. That they can be both a good and a bad. That you can enjoy your youth and beauty and still question the system that values them. That you should respect your efforts to make your life easier, even if you wish it was not necessary.
You can't live pulling yourself apart from the inside. And you shouldn't have to.
Abby, what's frustrating is that you're also saying those of us who transitioned/are transitioning "don't need to." That is invalidating, no matter how you want to paint it. Even if wasn't a "live or die" scenario for some of us, it is a "thrive or wilt" scenario in nearly every case. In your quest to make society a better fit for people like yourself, you can't make it worse for others, and living under the belief that we don't "need" to transition and only do it because of gender roles is the type of belief that leads to transgender people being excluded and ostracized as freaks who mutilate our bodies needlessly. You can want to get rid of gender roles without going to that extreme.
@Sarah,
I know society isn't aall bad. I guess it's a little more complicated for me cause I live in a small, Southern town with, I think, 9k people. So I see the worst segment of society.
In some ways transition has improved stuff for me. I don't get called a dyke or a ->-bleeped-<- anymore. Unless I wear boy clothes, then I'll get called a dyke. But yeah.
But still. Things are rough because even if people are nicer now it's cause they don't know.
Take a good example. Every now and then I hang out with my brother and his friends. I just shoot the breeze with them, nothing serious but I know for a fact a couple of them like me. They have no idea I'm trans.
Now...these are big, Southern, Christian right winger farmer dudes. Do you know what it's like like...I don't know. Like hanging out with them I'm consciously aware of how delicate it is. Like tiptoing around sleeping lions...one wrong move...
Thats just an example that springs to mind. So to me I think, society is on my mind a lot lately because I feel a little bit like I have no right way to turn and theres all this baggage. Add in the fact I'm still not 100% sure of transition and just a lot of other stuff and it just...gives me this thirst for change.
So I can't enjoy being young and beautiful completely because, yeah...I don't know if this is the body I wanted and even if it is it's a very dangerous way to be, where I am (especially given the way everybody knows everybody, and I knew some peeps pre transition).
And I just...there are soo many people in my situation. Sad Panda for one. Tons others. And it's just...not right, I guess.
Didn't realize you were in the south, Abby. If there's any way you can move, you would have a very different experience in New England, especially further north. Gender roles are blurred in most areas here and nonexistent in a few.
Quote from: Declan. on May 05, 2014, 02:08:05 PM
Abby, what's frustrating is that you're also saying those of us who transitioned/are transitioning "don't need to." That is invalidating, no matter how you want to paint it. Even if wasn't a "live or die" scenario for some of us, it is a "thrive or wilt" scenario in nearly every case. In your quest to make society a better fit for people like yourself, you can't make it worse for others, and living under the belief that we don't "need" to transition and only do it because of gender roles is the type of belief that leads to transgender people being excluded and ostracized as freaks who mutilate our bodies needlessly. You can want to get rid of gender roles without going to that extreme.
People are free to mutilate their bodies tho. If you want to put it like that. Getting cosmetic surgery is a common thing. They may even really need it (there are a lot of serious mental disorders intertwined eith too much cosmetic surgery)
But why always the whole package? why can't someone just be a female who needs a guy's body? Why should people be forced to find their place in the binary if all they have is body dysphoria for example? Or forced to change their body if all they have is social dysphoria?
We lumped trans people together who are not similar and forced them into the same treatment path. Cuz the gender roles are smothering.
It's like telling people who like tribal piercings that they have to go thru a coming of age ritual and get a letter from an african tribal chief. if it's not a social identity then... why do we say you have to be this thing if you want to look this way? Threy should be separate, but they are not, and nobody's really trying to separate them because trans people often don't actually want this thing or that thing. They want the stereotype itself. They want something society told them to be and want.
Declan, I didn't mean to say that, I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry for seeing things the way I do, so I'm unable to apologize for that, even if you disagree.
There are cases where transition may be necessary *foor* specific reasons. If somebody is severely suicidal and transition is the only 'medicine' to cure it, then in this case, transition is a necessity, just like depakote, celexa, risperdal, prozac, whatever.
However, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.
How is feeling like your body is the wrong sex any different from other body image issues? The difference is, that although we as males and females aren't so very different physically, society imposes very separate expectations on each as opposed to the other.
Following on an earlier thread...I suppose it could be said that...if a pretty girl were to develop a condition that caused her to gain weight...lipo suction or any other cosmetic procedure to reduce the girls weight because the distress that *feeling* like the pretty girl she is but being trapped in an ugly girls body and even worse enduring the treatment of being such is enough to induce suicidal depression.
You all keep saying "but I'm a guy/girl in x body thats why this is so horrible" like it should have weight...but to me it doesn't. Because to me gender should be unimportant. The two aren't so very different.
Declan, interesting, I wish I did live there truthfully. I would probably have never transitioned tbh.
I guess for me I've never turned the dysphoria toward my body. As I said, I rather liked it as a guy. I'd waay prefer a cisfemale body if I could have had it, but that was fine too. One is as good as the other.
My dysphoria wasn't so much over hating being male per se but hating that I had to be a man and all the expectations that came with that. Ever since I was little I found strength in femininity and felt if I could be a woman then things would be so much better/easier...I could be allow myself to be fun, strong and outgoing and vibrant and it would be okay that at my core I am soft and feminine and delicate if I were a girl. Because I could never be manly, tough or what have you. So as a boy I felt both vulnerable and weak and 'less than' for being that way.
But in many ways I was right. I am all of the things I thought I could be as a girl. But I realize now I shouldn't have had to become a girl to get them. I shouldn't have had to change my body to get them.
But I've posted on this topic enough....thanks for the food for thought everyone.
I loathe gender roles. These forums are toxic to me sometimes, in the sense that I read stuff like "I should have been a girl" or "I'm a woman! I feel like one"... It's so invalidating. People are way more than boys and girls, ugh, identity is so vast and encompassing, you can't sum any human being as male or female. That's what I dislike. Transgender folk view the world in black or white, but in reality there's so many shades of boys and girls, that in the real world it should matter little what you are.
This is the problem for me. I find people out there to be way more understanding and less conforming than most transgender individuals, particularly MtF's, who perpetuate all sorts of notions that are nauseating to me. I get dysphoric when I hear people preach about men being brutes and women being "delicate", it's just so absurd and out of contact with reality, but still it makes me feel weird. I'd say men and women act the same, at least in my age group, seriously. It's a a blurry line nowadays... I want to not feel like I need to transition, I want to like my body, I want to feel like I can be myself without changing my identity, but that seems a little impossible... Whenever I try I inevitably fail and just hate myself for not being "a woman", as if changing what others perceive me as is a pre-requisite for being how I already am.
But yeah, some posts here seem straight out of the 1950s, with men and women being regarded as almost different species.
I don't care if people see themselves as men or women, I refuse to see people that way. They're people. I address them by whatever pronoun makes them happy, but I don't particularly care who's what.
Ugh I feel weird now... It's as if not even the transgender community is acceptant of being "different", I just see played-out stereotypes... And yeah, I'm feeling really frustrated if that wasn't obvious.
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 02:26:00 PM
People are free to mutilate their bodies tho. If you want to put it like that. Getting cosmetic surgery is a common thin. They may even really need it (there are a lot of serious mental disorders intertwined eith too much cosmetic surgery)
But why always the whole package? why can't someone just be a fema,e who needs a guy's body? Why should people be forced to find their place in the binary if all they have is body dysphoria for example? Or forced to change their body if all they have is social dysphoria?
We lumped trans people together who are not similar and forced them into the same treatment path. Cuz the gender roles are smothering.
I didn't say they should be forced to find their place in the binary or change their body. I'm fine with a world where people who don't feel the need to transition don't, and the people who do need to transition go through with it. I'm not fine with a world where the people who do need to transition
aren't legally allowed to because of misguided activists. The only reason we're allowed to transition is because transition is the only way to treat most of us. If the trend of "we only need to transition because of gender roles" persists, it's a very real possibility that we will no longer be
allowed to transition.
QuoteHowever, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.
It's not the only explanation that makes sense. It doesn't explain the phantom feeling of genitalia that isn't there, or feeling your chest and feeling something different from what your brain is telling you should be there. For some, that's a reality. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with other males. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with females, either. Just about all of New England is progressive, but I live in a pocket where gender roles are not at all a part of society and not forced on anyone. If you were blind and everyone sounded the same, you would not be able to tell male from female here. Even though there are a few people who do fit the "typical" gender roles found in other parts of the country, the majority don't.
QuoteHow is feeling like your body is the wrong sex any different from other body image issues? The difference is, that although we as males and females aren't so very different physically, society imposes very separate expectations on each as opposed to the other. You all keep saying "but I'm a guy/girl in x body thats why this is so horrible" like it should have weight...but to me it doesn't. Because to me gender should be unimportant. The two aren't so very different.
I don't feel like my body is the wrong sex. My body is deformed, not "the wrong sex." Even if gender roles were eradicated, most men will still be born with male bodies, and most females will still be born with female bodies.
QuoteI guess for me I've never turned the dysphoria toward my body. As I said, I rather liked it as a guy. I'd waay prefer a cisfemale body if I could have had it, but that was fine too. One is as good as the other. My dysphoria wasn't so much over hating being male per se but hating that I had to be a man and all the expectations that came with that. Ever since I was little I found strength in femininity and felt if I could be a woman then things would be so much better/easier...I could be allow myself to be fun, strong and outgoing and vibrant and it would be okay that at my core I am soft and feminine and delicate if I were a girl. Because I could never be manly, tough or what have you. So as a boy I felt both vulnerable and weak and 'less than' for being that way. But in many ways I was right. I am all of the things I thought I could be as a girl. But I realize now I shouldn't have had to become a girl to get them. I shouldn't have had to change my body to get them.
I'm not a doctor, but I'm not so sure that's gender dysphoria. There are many men and women who feel that way as well - especially women, I would say. Do you think every woman who wants to be equal with men wants to
be a man? If that were the case, feminism wouldn't exist. Feminists would have transitioned instead. I think your life would improve drastically if you moved and got out of the suffocating environment you're in. The cookie-cutter society of the south can't be good for someone like yourself. :-\
We goin' in circles, y'all.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 02:30:35 PM
However, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.
Well, I don't think there's really a way to know. For some of us, this all started early. I don't think I knew enough about gender roles as a toddler when this first started to manifest. But who knows really?
I think the physical dysphoria for me at least, comes from the inside. It wasn't something like I thought 'breasts and periods are for girls, so this is wrong'. It wasn't anything like that. It was just this terrible feeling of wrongness about my body at puberty. At that point, I didn't think about which gender I wanted to be, I just wanted those parts gone.
Personally, I'd rather have lived socially as a girl without breasts and having facial hair than as a guy with breasts and no hair. If that was the choice. So, it's partly about being recognized as a guy and called 'he' and stuff. But mostly about feeling comfortable even moving around in this body for me. I was never comfortable in my body after puberty. Changing clothes was painful. Showering was excruciating. Even moving around in a body that felt wrong bothered me. That has all changed now. It doesn't hurt to perform these simple tasks anymore.
If the physical dysphoria is some kind of internalized gender role thing, then it was very deep seated and present from a very early age (for me anyway). Which my parents never pressured me one way or the other. So it didn't come from them.
Anyway, I agree with a lot of your points, but the physical dysphoria for me was very real and tangible. I don't think I got it because of preferring a boy's social role.
Declan, wellll I mean it was dysphoria, I think. Because I really *did* always wanna be a girl since I was little and I would get upset if I was forced to be a boy. And if I had my choice I'd still def be a bio female, but thats not possible.
But to me it wasn't really about body. I mean, yes I wanted to look like a girl and wear makeup and stuff, but that shouldn't be gender specific number 1. And number 2 I didn't hate that I couldn't and I never hated my body, genitals, and yeh. You get it. The closest I had to body dysphoria was not wanting to get haircuts but pre transition I even had a couple nice, short cuts I liked...I was very comfortable with my body as it was.
But no what really provoked transition was the roles and the constant reminder of what I was expected to be. It didn't let me forget, I guess you could say. But, yeah, I agree about the South :\
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 03:18:26 PM
Declan, wellll I mean it was dysphoria, I think. Because I really *did* always wanna be a girl since I was little and I would get upset if I was forced to be a boy. And if I had my choice I'd still def be a bio female, but thats not possible.
But to me it wasn't really about body. I mean, yes I wanted to look like a girl and wear makeup and stuff, but that shouldn't be gender specific number 1. And number 2 I didn't hate that I couldn't and I never hated my body, genitals, and yeh. You get it. The closest I had to body dysphoria was not wanting to get haircuts but pre transition I even had a couple nice, short cuts I liked...I was very comfortable with my body as it was.
But no what really provoked transition was the roles and the constant reminder of what I was expected to be. It didn't let me forget, I guess you could say. But, yeah, I agree about the South :\
That does help me understand where you're coming from. Just keep in mind that your experience isn't really "typical" of transgender people - however, I think part of the problem is we're all lumped in together in spite of being so diverse. Everyone falls under the same umbrella, and it leads to misunderstandings such as the ones on this thread. I understand that's a controversial opinion and one I could be wrong about. When we're all treated the same way, we argue, fight, and divide. If we weren't, and we were all able to pursue what's best for each of us as individuals instead, there would be discussion and support. In any case, I hope you find peace. You seem on your way to it, at least. If you ever manage to get out of the smothering South and you do move up here, you would find friends in us.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 07:45:28 AMThe body issue may have come about as a result of pressure from gender norms. We have no way of knowing.
Maybe someone's dysphoria is the result of parental attachment or abandonment issues, or abuse. Maybe it's denial of being gay. Maybe it is the result of autosexual attraction. Maybe.
We can actually believe what others are saying and not psychoanalyze their motivation.
QuoteAnd even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find
peace.
A person with myopia can find peace without glasses or lasik, as a person with overbite and crooked teeth can find peace without braces. A person with a cleft palate can find peace without surgery.
You know, the whole Serenity Prayer idea.
QuoteAnd you can moo and moan about my points and say they're invalidating all you like. It doesn't take away that the very fact that we live in a society that makes transition waay harder than it should be is a large part of why we need to in the first place. Not that we shouldn't be able to, either way...I'm all for body modification. Just that it shouldn't feel like life or death.
Go ahead..read that, get your rage up, react instead of listening. I'll wait.
You're point entirely rests on the premise (in bold) that gender norms induce dysphoria in trans people as a category. You're projecting a personal truth onto others as a universal truth.
Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 09:07:55 AM
And then there's society again. Being what appears to be a pretty girl in this society. I feel like a liar. So inauthentic and fake. I feel obbligated to every come on, every smile,every wink, every stare. I'm fooling them into believing I'm something I'm not. But in another society none of that would matter, right? I might not have to transition in the first place, and even if I did I wouldn't have to feel fake.
I'm just throwing this out there, but perhaps society has made us too concerned about the divide between artificial and natural. To me, this is just as harmful as the gender binary ever has been. We are more defined in the first 10 seconds of life (race, sex, genetic gifts, place of birth, parents, etc.) than everything combined we do in life thereafter.
I'm starting to care less about the dichotomy between fake and real. Isn't the mind everything?
This has been a very interesting thread to watch. Thanks for posting it Abby. It seems to be nearing the end, but I figured I might as well give my two cents anyways.
For myself I feel that my physical dysphoria is somehow innate, but greatly exacerbated by gender roles and expectations. I see gender identity as innate, but much more amorphous than some solid male or female. I think that it is something that makes you lean more to one direction or another for what social gender cues you absorb. If its not set from birth it probably becomes fairly close to set within the first few years of life. Because of this there are probably a number of trans people who wouldn't need to transition if there was no gender binary, but some still would.
In my case I have to physically transition. I passed 100% even before starting hormones. In fact in middle and high school I had to work to be seen as male. I grew breasts so had to wear a binder. I mastered wearing baggy clothes and layers to hide my body shape and kept my hair buzzed. I even had to try to lower my voice because it never dropped. For me social transitioning was stopping all that and putting on tighter fitting clothes. Yet social wasn't enough. I still needed to start hrt and I need gcs surgery. I can still remember when I was 4 years old and my testicles dropped. It freaked me out so much that I still haven't forgotten because it felt so wrong for them to be there. I was convinced something was wrong with me. I have to ignore the urge I've had since childhood to castrate myself everyday. I regularly have the sensation of a phantom vagina and can sometimes forget what is really there until something reminds me. All the other things I dislike about my body I feel are caused by societal rules for beauty, but I can't believe that my genital dysphoria since early childhood is caused by social causes only.
Also I don't view myself as a woman in a man's body. I feel I have a horrible birth defect between my legs because that has always been the only thing that genders me as male. Now that I'm at the end of this I guess you could argue that my dysphoria is caused by society saying boys have penises and girls have vaginas. That still wouldn't explain why I have never felt male though.
Quote from: Declan. on May 05, 2014, 03:00:50 PM
I didn't say they should be forced to find their place in the binary or change their body. I'm fine with a world where people who don't feel the need to transition don't, and the people who do need to transition go through with it. I'm not fine with a world where the people who do need to transition aren't legally allowed to because of misguided activists. The only reason we're allowed to transition is because transition is the only way to treat most of us. If the trend of "we only need to transition because of gender roles" persists, it's a very real possibility that we will no longer be allowed to transition.
It's not the only explanation that makes sense. It doesn't explain the phantom feeling of genitalia that isn't there, or feeling your chest and feeling something different from what your brain is telling you should be there. For some, that's a reality. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with other males. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with females, either. Just about all of New England is progressive, but I live in a pocket where gender roles are not at all a part of society and not forced on anyone. If you were blind and everyone sounded the same, you would not be able to tell male from female here. Even though there are a few people who do fit the "typical" gender roles found in other parts of the country, the majority don't.
I don't feel like my body is the wrong sex. My body is deformed, not "the wrong sex." Even if gender roles were eradicated, most men will still be born with male bodies, and most females will still be born with female bodies.
The point is, why do you need to transition socially when you have a body problem?
Why is your name declan and not your female name? Why do you call yourself male?
Cuz it's not just about your body. It's not just about the feeling of your brain vs your anatomy. It is turned into something social by society saying you have to be something socially if you want to look a certain way. What if someone had body sysphoria but became super socially dysphoric being forced into a male social role in transition? It shouldn't be a package deal but it is, and just cuz you are okay with that doesn't make it right. Everyone should get the treatment they need, not the treatment they are told they would need if they were depressed in the correct way.
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 08:45:06 PM
The point is, why do you need to transition socially when you have a body problem?
Why is your name declan and not your female name? Why do you call yourself male?
Because that is what HE prefers.
and just cuz you are okay with that doesn't make it right.
To you it might not, but to him it is. Quit telling people they are not right to feel what they do.
If this is going to be a free for all this topic will be locked. :police:
I'm sorry Jessica but you didn't understand what I said at all.... :/
I know that's what he prefers. Point is even if he didn't, society would force him to in order to change his body. And that is NOT right. It is not.
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 08:53:18 PM
I know that's what he prefers. Point is even if he didn't, society would force him to in order to change his body. And that is NOT right. It is not.
Society can only force you to do something if you let them. Society and others opinions had no bearing or deciding factor in my transition. I did it for me and how I wanted to. No one coerced or had any input into it. I think that is the big sticking point here. Side A-Says society influenced or decided for us. Maybe those people did get guided into it. Side B- Says society and its rules and stereotypes did not have any bearing in their decisions. We all have to agree that we all have opinions, but neither is going to be proven right because it cant be proven. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 08:59:09 PM
Society can only force you to do something if you let them. Society and others opinions had no bearing or deciding factor in my transition. I did it for me and how I wanted to. No one coerced or had any input into it. I think that is the big sticking point here. Side A-Says society influenced or decided for us. Maybe those people did get guided into it. Side B- Says society and its rules and stereotypes did not have any bearing in their decisions. We all have to agree that we all have opinions, but neither is going to be proven right because it cant be proven. :)
T is a controlled substance, you cannot get a script without proof that you need it and that means going thru a social transition. There is no legal way to change your body to fix body dysphoria without also going thru a social transition. Same to get surgeries. So yeah society pretty blatantly forces that. It tells trans people they are invalid unless they want the whole package, and that comes from our view of what a man or woman is supposed to be.
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 09:04:49 PM
T is a controlled substance, you cannot get a script without proof that you need it and that means going thru a social transition. There is no legal way to change your body to fix body dysphoria without also going thru a social transition. Same to get surgeries. So yeah society pretty blatantly forces that. It tells trans people they are invalid unless they want the whole package, and that comes from our view of what a man or woman is supposed to be.
Nitro tabs are a controlled substance also, but society doesn't make me not want it if I am having a massive coronary! I still have to prove with EKGs and labs I am having one. Dysphoria is the same way. You have to prove you need it.
I certainly didn't need society to tell me I needed to transition fully and end up with the whole shebang. My own brain said so. I originally tried to buck the whole binary thing, avoid transitioning socially and just maybe do my own thing, but it seems I won't likely be satisfied until my body matches what my brain thinks it should be like. Besides, trying to act and dress like a guy caused me pain and grief to the point of almost killing myself. Or like my therapist said, "Severe gender dysphoria". For me it was literally life or death, for others it is clearly not. There seeem to be degrees of masculinization/feminization of the brain at play here.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 09:07:40 PM
Nitro tabs are a controlled substance also, but society doesn't make me not want it if I am having a massive coronary! I still have to prove with EKGs and labs I am having one. Dysphoria is the same way. You have to prove you need it.
I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude I just really don't feel like we are on the same page here D:
What I am saying is you shouldn't have to prove anything, and the proof should be that you are depressed and psychologically disturbed by being unable to change your body, not that you have to want to live as a man.
For example... I am a boy, that is how I identify and nobody can take that from me. I have long hair, i wear girl's clothes, I have a body and face that looks female to everyone. People tell me that i can't or shouldn't be like that and also call myself a boy, and that is wrong of them. Nobody should be able to tell me that i have to look like a boy to identify as one, and the same goes for if i only wanted to change my body and not my identity. Does that make more sense? :S
Ok, I'm curious as to what you would say I should do. My female body has always felt wrong. Not because of gender roles but because it just felt wrong. I'm thinking back to when I was about 4. I didn't understand why I was so much shorter than all the boys. And when the boys decided to have a peeing contest, I couldn't do it. I was doing everything they did and not feeling judged for it, so it wasn't that I wanted to do what they did. I hate my breasts. I have the fact my muscle mass doesn't match how I feel. I feel like I should have more hair. So physically, my body doesn't fit me. No, using medical science to make changes won't solve everything but it will get me a lot closer to how I feel inside.
As far as gender. I have never identified as female. I'm sure some of this has to do with how I feel about my body and some probably does have to do with gender roles. I'd been identifying as pangender for quite some time. I have also identified as genderfluid. That still works. As a child, I consistently identified as "tomboy" and that truly felt right. There have been cultures that have identified up to 4 genders. Who knows, there may have been cultures that had more.
Recently, I've been calling myself male. I will admit, some of this is me more strongly stating (through gender preference) that I am not female. And I'm going to enjoy that because it's the first time I've truly gotten to do that out loud. Legally, I am choosing to change my gender to male because the options are male or female and I do not feel like a female. I have no plans of living in stealth. I will be open about my transgender journey and I feel this is my chance to make a statement. I spent my first 4 decades with a female body and gender designation, living largely in the male gender role. No one who knows me well has been surprised by my transition. I will now spend time living with a male body (eventually) and a legal male gender designation but I'm not going to hide any "girly" traits I have. And I live in a small town and work with the public so there is no hiding. All sorts of people are going to have to deal with my transition and how I am after I'm legally/physically male.
So would you have me not transition? And what would you have me not transition. My body? My legal gender? If you say change nothing, is that going to help our society move forward to a less binary place?
Its just that non binary people who dont want the whole package will always have to deal with society one way or another...
you will always have to be either male or female in your passport etc even if you dont feel like that
etc etc Im not going to analyze everything but you get the point...
for me its not that society forces anything, its that Im not able to feel free enough because everything is build up upon the gender binary...
@christopher thats a decision only you can make
change things that make you feel uncomfortable and sad dont try to fit into a role just because that role is there, be who you want to be
I am trying to understand this and all I keep coming up with is more of an anger at the process involved in transition or being forced to accept a certain gender.
Transition, like it or not, is a medical procedure that has protocols for medical professionals to follow. Society is not to blame for that. What I am gathering is some of you think the protocols and gatekeeping are societies way to control or punish trans people. I don't see it that way as a retired medical professional. I see severe complications to one's mind and body if adequate controls are not kept on this procedure. Society doesn't dictate that, the health services do. I am with Jill in the way no one had any influence in my decision at all. When I recognized the symptoms I knew I would have to go through stringent controls. I accepted that as looking out for my whole well being and not societal control. No one on this Earth makes me do anything I don't want to and I am like I am because I want to be. I want to be feminine and dress accordingly because I want it, not because someone forced me to. :)
Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on May 05, 2014, 09:24:05 PM
@christopher thats a decision only you can make
change things that make you feel uncomfortable and sad dont try to fit into a role just because that role is there, be who you want to be
Oh yes, I know that :) And I'm pretty clear on my path. I'm just trying to understand the point sad panda and abby are making. I'm curious as to what their take is.
The worst thing in the world is an echo chamber, where everybody in the room agrees with each other. We all tend to lean into our biases, and without dissent pulling in the other direction we'll veer off the road and into the ditch, and then through the field and then right off the cliff and into oblivion. Such things create polarization, which creates tribalism, which creates homogenization within the tribes, which then ultimately creates outright war between all the tribes. The internet has made it very easy to curate your own echo chamber, and many people do just that, because we are hardwired for tribalism, it's in our genes. It is, to me, the most threatening thing about these internets, because when you are old as me, it's easy to see how much more polarized society is now, compared to how it used to be.
So, while it has been a little heated, and at times has made me feel emotions I'd rather not feel, I am thankful for this thread. Many very good writers and thinkers contributing, and a very heady topic, created by a 19 year old, and that's pretty cool! If nothing else I feel threads like this keep me on the road and not off-track coming to weird conclusions that fit, not reality, but only my own limited worldview. I don't feel like many people have given an inch in this discussion, and it's path has become a big circle, but just knowing there are smart people out there that see things differently than we do is enough to keep us all grounded. And knowing we could face pushback for expressing our viewpoints on these sorts of topics is enough to keep us from forging forward with expressing new opinions that press the limits of reality even further. And I think that is a good thing. A gift really.
It has been kept relatively civil up till now, and I hope it stays that way, because that is the key to keeping dialogs open going forward, even in future threads, and people honest with their feelings.
I'm in agreement with quite a lot of the things being said. Non-binaries shouldn't have to do anything they want. No one should have to transition. No one should have to do something they want. That's all fine with me and I try to carry those beliefs onto the forum and see many others do the same. However, don't think binaries should be blamed as people when we are only doing what we need to be happy. And the thing is, many people have been supportive of all, so I feel a lot of statements are misdirected and unfair. To be honest, that hurts cause some of us tried to befriend you all and support your decisions. Maybe the system is skewed, but remember individual people aren't the system. We can only do what we can. I try to do that on my own part and not force the binary narative on anyone and try to support those for different backgrounds, but I can't and won't sacrifice my transition because someone else doesn't want me to. No one has the right to tell me what to do with my body and no one has the right to tell you want to do with yours. This feels like a blame game that is unfair in it's core.
Everyone should do what's best for themselves and no one should be pressured. Do what's best for themselves. I realize all of that is easier said than done, but if there is a way to make it easier I'm all for it. Look, don't we all feel pain. Don't we all feel misery? Maybe not, but I do. All of us should be allowed to be ourselves to get passed this. I don't want to take that from you, and I'd hope you wouldn't take that from me. Again, I realize this is all easier said than done, but let's care about each other and not make this into a battle against each other. why can't we all support each others quest for happiness? I realize society makes these things hard, but they make it hard for all of us. We are all fighting the same battle, just in different ways.
I guess simply put, can't we all support each other and get along. I may be a simpleton who feels too much but I do want everyone to find happiness through their own individual path and hope everyone here would hope the same for me.
Abby, you don't have to transition if you don't want to. Do what's best for you as a person, which only you can know for yourself. Seriously, I know you may think many bad things about me, but I do care and hope you find what you want out of this life. Believe me, you don't want to suffer with all of this longer than you should. Be you and follow your own path. You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. And I'd say the same thing to Panda. Good luck with everything to the both of you and I hope it works out, whatever it is.
Quote from: christopher on May 05, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
Ok, I'm curious as to what you would say I should do. My female body has always felt wrong. Not because of gender roles but because it just felt wrong. I'm thinking back to when I was about 4. I didn't understand why I was so much shorter than all the boys. And when the boys decided to have a peeing contest, I couldn't do it. I was doing everything they did and not feeling judged for it, so it wasn't that I wanted to do what they did. I hate my breasts. I have the fact my muscle mass doesn't match how I feel. I feel like I should have more hair. So physically, my body doesn't fit me. No, using medical science to make changes won't solve everything but it will get me a lot closer to how I feel inside.
As far as gender. I have never identified as female. I'm sure some of this has to do with how I feel about my body and some probably does have to do with gender roles. I'd been identifying as pangender for quite some time. I have also identified as genderfluid. That still works. As a child, I consistently identified as "tomboy" and that truly felt right. There have been cultures that have identified up to 4 genders. Who knows, there may have been cultures that had more.
Recently, I've been calling myself male. I will admit, some of this is me more strongly stating (through gender preference) that I am not female. And I'm going to enjoy that because it's the first time I've truly gotten to do that out loud. Legally, I am choosing to change my gender to male because the options are male or female and I do not feel like a female. I have no plans of living in stealth. I will be open about my transgender journey and I feel this is my chance to make a statement. I spent my first 4 decades with a female body and gender designation, living largely in the male gender role. No one who knows me well has been surprised by my transition. I will now spend time living with a male body (eventually) and a legal male gender designation but I'm not going to hide any "girly" traits I have. And I live in a small town and work with the public so there is no hiding. All sorts of people are going to have to deal with my transition and how I am after I'm legally/physically male.
So would you have me not transition? And what would you have me not transition. My body? My legal gender? If you say change nothing, is that going to help our society move forward to a less binary place?
Well, personally, I think you should change everything you want and only what you want. You also shouldn't be made to change things you don't want... and that can happen in a lot of ways. Thru explicit or imagined pressure from other people, thru legal or medical standards that you are forced to comply with but don't fit you, or thru judgments you make about yourself because of internalized gender roles. It is really awesome when you can have the transition that gives you everything you want. But, not everybody can, because not every transition, or every personal change, is considered legitimate by our society. Our views of gender force people into boxes, even force people to put themselves in a box, like how you have to become legally male even though you are polygender. And I think as you socialize more as a male, you may find other ways in which the binary tries to force you to give up your own ideas and assimilate. It is inescapable in the current world, anywhere. It is inescapable even just cuz those standards exist and you are aware of them, which can change how you feel about yourself even just a little bit.
Again, it's great for the people it works for.. but it only works for some people, and it is very harmful to others. It's just like how women are beaten with messages to be thin and pretty. Some women manage to still have self confidence, but there is still a serious effect in that many women internalize those ideas and become depressive, disordered or suicidal when they wouldn't be otherwise. It's just irresponsible for people to say, it works for me, so we don't need to change it, it's not wrong. You know?
And to make this productive, what can we all do to simultaneously support one another? How can we turn this into something productive where I can support you, you can support me and the world can support all of us? I'm up for solutions that allow this and sure all of us are too. I realize the system is part of the problem, so how do we change the system and be able to support each other?
We can start by not discounting personal success stories no matter how the person achieved the goal or what guided them to it. Personal opinions are fine until they lead to blanket statements concerning everyone in a certain group. If one group has success don't say it was because they were pressured or assimilated due to interests of others instead of their informed opinion. That is a start. :)
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 10:04:15 PM
We can start by not discounting personal success stories no matter how the person achieved the goal or what guided them to it. Personal opinions are fine until they lead to blanket statements concerning everyone in a certain group. If one group has success don't say it was because they were pressured or assimilated due to interests of others instead of their informed opinion. That is a start. :)
I think that's a start here, and that's what I'm hoping for how we view and treat one another, but I don't think that addresses systematic issues for non-binaries. I think rather than us turn against each other, we can turn to each other and maybe find solutions together. I may be hard headed and have binary-privledge, but I have a heart and do care about people hoping that it will be possible for them to attain their dreams. I just don't know what I can personally do or how we can take on the system as we are being called to do.
What system are we talking about taking on? I am blonde so work with me. Are we taking on society? Healthcare? Personal opinion? I am confused. ??? I am not sure who we are taking on. ???
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 09:54:15 PM
Well, personally, I think you should change everything you want and only what you want. You also shouldn't be made to change things you don't want... and that can happen in a lot of ways. Thru explicit or imagined pressure from other people, thru legal or medical standards that you are forced to comply with but don't fit you, or thru judgments you make about yourself because of internalized gender roles. It is really awesome when you can have the transition that gives you everything you want. But, not everybody can, because not every transition, or every personal change, is considered legitimate by our society. Our views of gender force people into boxes, even force people to put themselves in a box, like how you have to become legally male even though you are polygender. And I think as you socialize more as a male, you may find other ways in which the binary tries to force you to give up your own ideas and assimilate. It is inescapable in the current world, anywhere. It is inescapable even just cuz those standards exist and you are aware of them, which can change how you feel about yourself even just a little bit.
Again, it's great for the people it works for.. but it only works for some people, and it is very harmful to others. It's just like how women are beaten with messages to be thin and pretty. Some women manage to still have self confidence, but there is still a serious effect in that many women internalize those ideas and become depressive, disordered or suicidal when they wouldn't be otherwise. It's just irresponsible for people to say, it works for me, so we don't need to change it, it's not wrong. You know?
well society certainly tried to get me to assimilate but that never worked. Off and on I would bend to the pressures and try, but never for very long. I suspect that will be true on this side of the spectrum too. I'd love to say I'll never have any moments where I give in to pressure, but I know that's mighty hard. The thing is, this isn't a race with a finish line. It's a journey. As we travel, we are able to adjust what direction we are going.
From my end here's what's happening. Using your example of western society's F'ed up messages about women being thin and beautiful. You are saying this pressure to be a thin beautiful woman is super harmful and no woman should try to be thin or beautiful. Most everybody here is agreeing that the idea that the only good way to be thin and beautiful is wrong, but some folks are saying "I was born thin and beautiful" and feeling like they are being judged for that. so people are fundamentally agreeing with each other, but feeling attacked.
Well, I do think one thing we can do is be cautious before recommending someone transition nor should we ever really do that. It really isn't needed or helpful in every case. It's true that some people feel pressured into doing so, and that's not right. I don't think that's a big issue here, but I do see some comments that probably should have been more cautious. That's a part where WE can take responsibility and try to make things better. Transition doesn't have to be the only solution if it's not needed or desired in any capacity by a member. We can support our own transition without needing to act like it's the only cure, it's more of an individual one. Again, I don't think most people do this here, but it happens and I support us being careful before pushing anyone one way or the other. Make sure that we support everyone here rather than one group.
Quote from: learningtolive on May 05, 2014, 09:58:03 PM
And to make this productive, what can we all do to simultaneously support one another? How can we turn this into something productive where I can support you, you can support me and the world can support all of us? I'm up for solutions that allow this and sure all of us are too. I realize the system is part of the problem, so how do we change the system and be able to support each other?
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.
People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps! :)
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.
People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps! :)
If we stop all this we might as well shut this site down. People come here to ask our opinions and get advice and support. If they ask and get no opinions why are we here? You have not left anything for us to talk about. If someone asks our opinion should we say go away I am not answering? ???
I personally do not see anyone here giving out malicious or damaging advice. People ask, we answer as to our experiences. What they do with that advice is totally up to them.
Quote from: christopher on May 05, 2014, 10:17:51 PM
well society certainly tried to get me to assimilate but that never worked. Off and on I would bend to the pressures and try, but never for very long. I suspect that will be true on this side of the spectrum too. I'd love to say I'll never have any moments where I give in to pressure, but I know that's mighty hard. The thing is, this isn't a race with a finish line. It's a journey. As we travel, we are able to adjust what direction we are going.
From my end here's what's happening. Using your example of western society's F'ed up messages about women being thin and beautiful. You are saying this pressure to be a thin beautiful woman is super harmful and no woman should try to be thin or beautiful. Most everybody here is agreeing that the idea that the only good way to be thin and beautiful is wrong, but some folks are saying "I was born thin and beautiful" and feeling like they are being judged for that. so people are fundamentally agreeing with each other, but feeling attacked.
Well, for example, saying I want to be thin and beautiful is fine, but saying I don't feel like a woman if I am not thin and beautiful is not great. Cuz that reinforces a gender stereotype about what a woman should be. It's bad for us to link our own gendrr, sexuality, body and stuff, to norms that exclude people. That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it. I'm not attacking anybody though, definitely not! :) I want everyone to be happy and to help other people be happy and love themselves.
Quote from: Jessica MerrimanWhat system are we talking about taking on? I am blonde so work with me. Are we taking on society? Healthcare? Personal opinion? I am confused. ??? I am not sure who we are taking on.
In many people's minds, all of the above, all at once... which is a bit of a tall order. I wonder if part of the problem is that many of us have been brought up to believe that we are entitled to whatever we want, right now. Just because we may not buy into the binary doesn't mean that we're automatically immune to that sort of "consumerist" mentality.
But change is a slow process, and needs to be taken in small chunks. Take the healthcare system as an exanple: things are changing. At my clinic, they take pains to welcome folks whose identities don't fit the binary model and treat them appropriately. Some of the staff are non-binary folks themselves. About the first question my doc asked me about starting on hormones was, "What are your goals? Do you want to go for full masculinization, or are you aiming for a more androgynous presentation?"
It's frustrating when people treat you badly and cause you pain because they're hostile or just don't "get it." But you can create tiny increments of change just by insisting on who you are, as much as is possible for you. In the meantime... yeah, you may have to compromise a bit. But change happens, eventually.
Quote from: sad pandaIt's bad for us to link our own gendrr, sexuality, body and stuff, to norms that exclude people. That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it.
This. We do need solidarity among ourselves. "Divide and conquer" is an ancient strategy, and we'd be fools to allow ourselves to be divided from one another so much that we don't offer mutual support. If we can't support each other, who will support us?
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:33:19 PM
That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it.
An example of this here would be...................................
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.
People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps! :)
So what you're saying is everyone has to confirm to your standard and ideals, regardless of whether or not that works for them? I mean yeah, your method is great, "be yourself" The problem is the automatic dismissal of so many people's being themselves because in your opinion, who they are is impossible.
Am I saying that everyone fits that bill? No. You can be fully right about it for many. But not all. Never all. However, you dismiss all as impossible, and force them all to a whole other standard instead of letting them actually say "this is who I am"
Let them be who they are, who they say they are and want to be. Don't force them into your box just because you think they are following the pied piper into a different box that you don't agree with.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 10:25:19 PM
If we stop all this we might as well shut this site down. People come here to ask our opinions and get advice and support. If they ask and get no opinions why are we here? You have not left anything for us to talk about. If someone asks our opinion should we say go away I am not answering? ???
I personally do not see anyone here giving out malicious or damaging advice. People ask, we answer as to our experiences. What they do with that advice is totally up to them.
Again, it is possible to give advice that is helpful and does not uphold stereotypes and the binary and transition or die and things like that. Just because you have the freedom to give whatever advice you want, doesn't mean that some advice is not more hurtful than others.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 10:38:57 PM
An example of this here would be...................................
Like, I was told here that I'm too beautiful to present as a boy (also, in another thread that I don't act like a boy) The advice giver didn't mean anything bad, I'm sure, but it was not constructive, and it reinforced a stereotype about how a boy is supposed to look. Just because i can ignore that advice, doesn't mean it was worth saying in the first place. The more of an environment of unacceptance or binary-normativity there is, the more people will feel that they can't be accepted as they are, that they have to change themselves to fit in. I am a boy, so telling me I am too beautiful to present as one is hurtful. It implies that I should change my identity, or change my presentation, because I am not acceptable as I am.
Also frankly I am getting pretty uncomfortable from your hostility, Jessica, so if you have a problem with me personally, can you please PM me?
Do you have a Therapist? That is not meant any other way except they could get to the bottom of what is troubling you. If I am correct here you asked a question, got an answer, felt offended and cant let it go. Am I right or off base here? :)
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.
People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps! :)
Well, I'm sorry sad panda if you feel this has been done to you while you have been here. On my part, I will apologize for any personal short comings and will reflect on these these things. Sorry you felt pigeonheld into the binary. Seriously, if you felt that from me, I will say sorry and the same thing to Abby.
All I can say is that my own judgement of myself is a much different thing. To be honest, I can only be who I am or say how I feel about myself. I can't lie to make other people feel better. If something truely upsets me about my body or life, it's going to upset me. If I really feel something, I'm not going to change it in order to make people feel better. We all have different views, beliefs and triggers. That's part of what makes us a diverse community and that's a better thing in the end. No one is better or worse for being anything. And I can't change who I am nor should I in the end. The same goes for you and everyone else. Judgement of all kind needs to be stopped here. Though I caught the ending and see what's really being said.
Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 05, 2014, 10:39:16 PM
So what you're saying is everyone has to confirm to your standard and ideals, regardless of whether or not that works for them? I mean yeah, your method is great, "be yourself" The problem is the automatic dismissal of so many people's being themselves because in your opinion, who they are is impossible.
Am I saying that everyone fits that bill? No. You can be fully right about it for many. But not all. Never all. However, you dismiss all as impossible, and force them all to a whole other standard instead of letting them actually say "this is who I am"
Let them be who they are, who they say they are and want to be. Don't force them into your box just because you think they are following the pied piper into a different box that you don't agree with.
I'm sorry Colleen but I think you are misunderstanding my point. :S I want everyone to be who they are, that doesn't mean they can't be careful to avoid reinforcing gender stereotypes and binary-only thinking.
Topic locked.
Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:47:10 PM
Again, it is possible to give advice that is helpful and does not uphold stereotypes and the binary and transition or die and things like that. Just because you have the freedom to give whatever advice you want, doesn't mean that some advice is not more hurtful than others.
Like, I was told here that I'm too beautiful to present as a boy (also, in another thread that I don't act like a boy) The advice giver didn't mean anything bad, I'm sure, but it was not constructive, and it reinforced a stereotype about how a boy is supposed to look. Just because i can ignore that advice, doesn't mean it was worth saying in the first place. The more of an environment of unacceptance or binary-normativity there is, the more people will feel that they can't be accepted as they are, that they have to change themselves to fit in. I am a boy, so telling me I am too beautiful to present as one is hurtful. It implies that I should change my identity, or change my presentation, because I am not acceptable as I am.
Also frankly I am getting pretty uncomfortable from your hostility, Jessica, so if you have a problem with me personally, can you please PM me?
The thing is, I do see what you're saying and where you are coming from. And yes, people should be accept as they are if that's who they are. But the way it keeps sounding like in many posts by more than just you is that if you don't accept yourself as is, and decide to transition, to change themselves to be who they feel they are, then they are feeding the binary and playing into stereotypes.
Because it sounds to me as if in your opinion, body and social issues caused by the binary are the only reasons for the dysphoria, and in a better society no one would chose to transition because they they wouldn't mind having an overtly male body as long as they can wear whatever clothes they want. That a real disconnect between the body and the mind and the pain it causes doesn't exist, it's merely a byproduct of society. And if anyone of us says differently, because that's true for us, we're wrong and playing into the stereotype and binary automatically.
Which is to say, what you're doing by that is no different than you being told you're too pretty to be a boy. Invalidating a person's experiences and right to define themselves by holding them to a new standard, and saying they're wrong if they don't conform to it.
Maybe you aren't saying that But time and time again posts seem to suggest that anyone who feels they couldn't be happy with their untransitioned body is automatically part of the problem.
Topic got locked, but don't want you to be unable to reply or defend your pov, so feel free to pm me to reply.