Here's my take on the motivation for TS's that say that those with a choice aren't really TS.
I think many transsexuals don't want to hear that this is a choice for some, so they say that those with a choice are not real TS's because they are afraid that people opposed to their own transition will hear that it's a choice for some and assume that it was a choice for everyone. By trying to disassociate those who have a choice from transsexuals, I think that it's really an attempt to disassociate the misconception from themselves.
I know my parents have done this and said it was a "choice" for me even though it wasn't. For the most part, they refuse to have anything to do with me unless I "choose" to detransition, since they figured it was a "choice" in the first place that can be undone. The way my parents have treated me it one of the most painful things in my life and it is all caused by the belief that transitioning was a "choice" for me. :'(
Do you really want me to answer that? I don't wanna. :-\
Posted on: August 03, 2007, 10:07:29 PM
Actually, people who think they have a "choice" should listen to these folks:
Quote from: Renee Richards"It's not something for somebody in their 40s to do, someone who's had a life as a man, - - - If you're 18 or 20 and never had the kind of (advantages) I had, and you're oriented in that direction, sure, go ahead and make right what nature didn't. But if you're a 45-year-old man and you're an airline pilot and you have an ex-wife and three adolescent kids, you better get on Thorazine or Zoloft or Prozac or get locked up or do whatever it takes to keep you from being allowed to do something like this.''
"I wish that there could have been an alternative way, but there wasn't in 1975. If there was a drug that I could have taken that would have reduced the pressure, I would have been better off staying the way I was -- a totally intact person. I know deep down that I'm a second-class woman. I get a lot of inquiries from would-be transsexuals, but I don't want anyone to hold me out as an example to follow. Today there are better choices, including medication, for dealing with the compulsion to crossdress and the depression that comes from gender confusion. As far as being fulfilled as a woman, I'm not as fulfilled as I dreamed of being. I get a lot of letters from people who are considering having this operation...and I discourage them all."
Quote from: Danielle BerryDon't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say.
That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way. Despite following the rules and being as honest as I could with the medical folks at each stage, nobody stopped me and said "Are you honest to God absolutely sure this is the ONLY path for you?!" To the contrary, the voices were all cheerfully supportive of my decision. I was fortunate that the web didn't exist then - there are too damn many cheerleaders ready to reassure themselves of their own decision by parading their "successful" surgeries and encouraging others.
I can speak the transgender party line that I was a female trapped in a male body and I remember feeling this way since I was 4. But, it's never that easy if you look at it sincerely and without preconception. There's little question that a mid-life crisis, a divorce and a cancer scare were involved in at least the timing of my sex-change decision. To be completely honest at this point (3 yrs post-op) is not easy, however, I'm not sure I would do it again. I'm now concerned that much of what I took as a gender dysfunction might have been nothing more than a neurotic sexual obsession. I was a cross-dresser for all of my sexual life and had always fantasized going fem as an ultimate turn-on. Ironically, when I began hormone treatment my libido went away. However, I mistook that relief from sexual obsession for validation of my gender change. Then in the final bit of irony, after surgery my new genitals were non-orgasmic (like 80% of my TG sisters).
So, needless to say, my life as a woman is not an ultimate turn-on. And what did it all cost? Over $30,000 and the loss of most of my relationships to family and friends. And the costs don't end. Every relationship I make now and in the future has to come to terms with the sex-change. And I'm not the only one who suffers. I hate the impact this will have on my kids and their future.
Anyway, I'm making it sound awful and it's not. There are some perks but the important things like being comfortable with myself and having a true love in my life don't seem like they were contingent on the change. Being my "real self" could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice. I miss my easy access to my kids (unlike many TS's I didn't completely lose access to them though), I miss my family and old friends (I know they "shouldn't" have abandoned me but lots of folks aren't as open minded as they "should" be ... I still miss them) and finally, I hate the disconnect with my past (there's just no way to integrate the two unrelated lives). There's any number of ways to express your gender and sexuality and the only one I tried was the big one. I'll never know if I could have found a compromise that might have worked a lot better than the "one size fits all" sex-change. Please, check it out yourself before you do likewise."
Quote from: Sandra MacDougall
"Recently when I was walking down the road a man swore at me and told me to stay away from the children."
"People have been so cruel. I can't go anywhere now without being shouted and laughed at. Sometimes they don't say anything at all, just walk past me shaking their heads slowly."
"But I have to remember that I'm a woman and that it would not be a very lady-like thing to do," she said.
"Be more than 100% sure because once you've had the operation, that's it."
"I got so low about myself and the way I was being treated by people that I asked a surgeon if he could change me back.
"I knew in my heart that they wouldn't be able to do it but I thought it would be worth asking," she said. "I was so desperate for so many years to become a woman and now I am I wonder what it's all been for.
"Society is simply not ready to accept people like me. I don't even get treated like scum. I get treated worse than scum."
"It's not really something I'm interested in to be honest. I've had quite a few complications with the operation that I don't want to go into but I'm not that keen to embark upon any relationship.
Quote from: Samantha Kane'I was a traditional male. I was strong and tough in business and the provider for my family. My wife Trudi had never worked a day of her life. I shouldered the complete financial responsibility for her and the children,' he says.
'I was like any other man,' he says. 'I worked hard and did pretty much what I liked. I enjoyed spending time with men talking about football, the stock market and, of course, girls. I think my sex drive was above average. I had one or two affairs during my marriage..."
"I was robbed of my manhood for so many years" explains Sam/Samantha/Charles, ignoring the fact that it was his/her decision to undergo surgery."
All quotes extracted from
this link.tink :icon_chick:
hmm Tink,
I would of thought you could provide something more uplifting. I know I do not want to look into me being TS - but if I need to look there I will.
Alice
Quote from: Alice on August 03, 2007, 10:47:19 PM
hmm Tink,
I would of thought you could provide something more uplifting.
Alice
Alice, sometimes the truth is not so uplifting. I know that this is not what most of us want to hear but it is a possibility. Besides, I have posted this link in the past so it isn't new here at Susan's. My opinion is this: if I thought that transition were a "choice", I would look for the alternatives/reasons for not transitioning. I know that some of us may not find this link useful or uplifting, but on the other hand, some people may.... :)
tink :icon_chick:
I personally find the idea that some people here can get offended by someone saying they chose to transition as a little odd.
I'm happy saying that it was a choice for me. To take the "I didn't have a choice, it was something I needed and just HAD to do it" line just doesn't really gel with my way of thinking, I guess. As an autonomous human being, I made a choice to take actions that would hopefully make my life better, and to put it down to fate or destiny or "I just HAD to do it" completely devalues the struggle, the actions, the achievements. I'm proud that I transitioned - for me to say I didn't have a choice would mean that I wasn't responsible for my actions and that I would have nothing to be proud of.
I know this doesn't work for everyone (probably no-one but me, really), please don't think I'm applying this to anyone else but myself. I just fail to see why, having explained why I see it as a choice, anyone could then conclude "not TS" in regards to me. To tell the truth, I kind of can't help but find it a little funny when they do these days :).
Megan
In other words, what these women say is their opinion, it is up to each and every one of us to know if what we feel fits what they have said or not. People can say whatever they want but if we don't share the same feelings, nothing is going to change the way we view ourselves, our womanhood or "our" transition.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: MeganRose on August 03, 2007, 11:06:32 PM
I'm happy saying that it was a choice for me. To take the "I didn't have a choice, it was something I needed and just HAD to do it" line just doesn't really gel with my way of thinking, I guess. As an autonomous human being, I made a choice to take actions that would hopefully make my life better, and to put it down to fate or destiny or "I just HAD to do it" completely devalues the struggle, the actions, the achievements. I'm proud that I transitioned - for me to say I didn't have a choice would mean that I wasn't responsible for my actions and that I would have nothing to be proud of.
I know this doesn't work for everyone (probably no-one but me, really), please don't think I'm applying this to anyone else but myself. I just fail to see why, having explained why I see it as a choice, anyone could then conclude "not TS" in regards to me. To tell the truth, I kind of can't help but find it a little funny when they do these days :).
I feel the same way about this.
Saying that I didn't have a choice would imply to me personally that I don't take responsiblity for my actions and that I am unable to control my life at all.
Quote from: taru on August 04, 2007, 01:56:12 AM
I feel the same way about this.
Saying that I didn't have a choice would imply to me personally that I don't take responsiblity for my actions and that I am unable to control my life at all.
Nice to know I'm not the only one :).
Megan
Quote from: taru on August 04, 2007, 01:56:12 AM
Saying that I didn't have a choice would imply to me personally that I don't take responsiblity for my actions and that I am unable to control my life at all.
That is your opinion. My opinion is that you aren't transsexual. Ask transsexuals about this and see for yourself how many they think transition is a choice. Not many I'm afraid. The few ones are severe ->-bleeped-<-s with some cross-gender identification issues but not what the icd-10 or dsm would diagnosticate as transsexual.
Quote from: Tink on August 03, 2007, 11:06:11 PM
Quote from: Alice on August 03, 2007, 10:47:19 PM
hmm Tink,
I would of thought you could provide something more uplifting.
Alice
Alice, sometimes the truth is not so uplifting. I know that this is not what most of us want to hear but it is a possibility. Besides, I have posted this link in the past so it isn't new here at Susan's. My opinion is this: if I thought that transition were a "choice", I would look for the alternatives/reasons for not transitioning. I know that some of us may not find this link useful or uplifting, but on the other hand, some people may.... :)
tink :icon_chick:
I have always known that if I do transistion it will not be a choice. I have always known I would run away from this if I could but my depression was real and I need to deal with the issues.
Alice
Quote from: Blanche on August 04, 2007, 02:07:10 AM
That is your opinion. My opinion is that you aren't transsexual. Ask transsexuals about this and see for yourself how many they think transition is a choice. Not many I'm afraid. The few ones are severe ->-bleeped-<-s with some cross-gender identification issues but not what the icd-10 or dsm would diagnosticate as transsexual.
Well, I'm a transsexual, and I asked myself whether I had a choice and I said yes, so what does that mean? Since Taru was agreeing with me, I assume you are also pointing your "NOT A TS! GET AWAY BEFORE YOU POISON ME WITH ASSOCIATION" stick at me as well? Ooh, fun :D.
You know, now that you mention it, because I don't believe in fate , but believe that I have a concious choice in everything that I do, I mustn't really be TS. I might as well stop taking hormones, shave all my hair off, get a surgeon to cut off my boobs, change my name back to what it used to be and just go back to the way life was before. Trying to numb my pain by being out of my head on drugs 24/7 was SO much better than being a happy, well-adjusted woman and offending all the other happy, well adjusted men and women by believing in autonomy and taking pride in my choices and my actions. What was I thinking?
Seriously though, just because you don't think that you had a choice, doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't fit into your transsexual world view should be instantly dismissed. After all, transsexuals are people too. People think differently from one another, come from different backgrounds, and can have different opinions. Maybe you should think of that before you start trying to "diagnosticate" people who identify as TS as being something else?
Megan (or was it Matthew? I can't remember)
I consider transition a choice, and a viable choice at that. However, to me staying as I was was not a viable option, but I do not think that means I had no choice in the matter. Staying as I was was choosing to remain unhappy an unfulfilled. Where as transition is choosing to at least try and find happiness. Personally I find transition to be the only sane option, even if it is not an overly good one. But, this is my case and is not necessarily your own. That is the thing, each path is individual, what is correct for me will probably not be for anyone else. However, I think it still amounts to being a choice between the lesser of evils, but as such still a choice, even when there are no other viable options.
A large number of thoughts hammered and folded...
get a second opinion, even a third a fourth a fifth. You got a choice. what do you want to do this for? ???
Quote from: Blanche on August 04, 2007, 03:17:31 AM
get a second opinion, even a third a fourth a fifth. You got a choice. what do you want to do this for? ???
I chose to be happy. Why is that so confusing?
Megan
P.s. Megan, F is for Fabulous, like you.
Quote from: Kimberly on August 04, 2007, 03:34:07 AM
P.s. Megan, F is for Fabulous, like you.
Thanks honey, right back at you :)
Megan
True it was a choice for me. Transition or kill myself eventually.So yes it was a choice and I chose life!
Wow, some very interesting posts. Every time I bring up the issue, that it is a choice even if it is the only choice among the choices (one of one with the many eliminated), I get verbally pummelled, so it's refreshing to see others think we, as conscious and thinking people, make finding ourselves a choice. It is about being and the journey to personal fullfilment.
Quote from: DawnL on July 19, 2007, 11:37:56 PM
Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive. People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns. Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light.
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies. Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary. So it is (or should be) for severe GID. Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life.
Dawn
Seconded! Thank you so much for the words of wisdom again riot girl! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
QuoteWhy TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS
Because some people build an identity based on being victimized and martyred. Choice = responsibility, and they need to avoid responsibility at all costs lest they not be passive, helpless victims anymore. Plus it destroys the whole,
"Don't transition! It's the most terrible thing you'll ever go through and only people like me could do it!" bragging. Some people are self-destructive, and it manifests in both thought and action. Endless suicide "attempts," self-mutilations, drug addictions...
My guess is these people have never worked through their own internalized shame and guilt, so it HAS to be "no choice" so they and others can't "blame" them for the things they feel shameful about.
Personally, I think transition is a *beautiful* thing. It's not some awful death sentence, though these people do their best to paint it as some horrific experience in order to make themselves look like martyred, reluctant heroes.
Here's some thoughts:
1) Transition itself has it's risks and troubles. But it CAN be relatively easy to do IF IF IF you can get through your own guilt and shame about doing it. If I could go back and transition again, knowing what I know now and not needing to get over myself so much... aside from the damage to my marriage, it would pretty much be a non-event.
2) You don't have to "be a woman inside" to justify transitioning. All that stuff it political wackiness thrown about by people trying to justify something they feel insecure about themselves, IMHO.
Needs > Reasons.3) Just do what YOU need to do to "transition." Everyone's needs are unique, as is everyone's transition. For God's sake, don't get caught up in all the endless battles of what makes a "Real TS" and "Real Woman." Don't do something because some insecure person tells you
"All real TSs would..." Do you want to be a Real TS? Or a real YOU? Figure YOURSELF out, and let them have their pointless battles while you go off and fix what you gotta fix to be happy. You don't need to please THEM or fit someone's definitions to be happy... you just gotta be YOU.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on August 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
Personally, I think transition is a *beautiful* thing. It's not some awful death sentence, though these people do their best to paint it as some horrific experience in order to make themselves look like martyred, reluctant heroes.
Transition is not horrific per se. I viewed it as my
bridge to freedom if you will. It is the many obstacles you encounter along the way which make it seem impossible to accomplish at times. Crossing that bridge is NOT easy (in fact, it is one of the most difficult things anyone can do) and anyone who says otherwise is merely denying the truth. Setting your foot on that bridge for the very first time takes courage, determination, and a great deal of strength. Making your first step is
knowing that this is what you
have to do for there is no other way. The third step is more painful than the second, the fourth even more so than the one before (for you feel as dying every time you advance an inch more), but as you go through it, you become stronger, wiser, and when you see yourself at the end of the bridge, you realize that it was all worth it, but most importantly, you made it, you survived. So yes, we are winners, we are survivors, we are lucky, we are heroes indeed.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Kate on August 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
QuoteWhy TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS
Because some people build an identity based on being victimized and martyred. Choice = responsibility, and they need to avoid responsibility at all costs lest they not be passive, helpless victims anymore. Plus it destroys the whole, "Don't transition! It's the most terrible thing you'll ever go through and only people like me could do it!" bragging. Some people are self-destructive, and it manifests in both thought and action. Endless suicide "attempts," self-mutilations, drug addictions...
My guess is these people have never worked through their own internalized shame and guilt, so it HAS to be "no choice" so they and others can't "blame" them for the things they feel shameful about.
Personally, I think transition is a *beautiful* thing. It's not some awful death sentence, though these people do their best to paint it as some horrific experience in order to make themselves look like martyred, reluctant heroes.
Here's some thoughts:
1) Transition itself has it's risks and troubles. But it CAN be relatively easy to do IF IF IF you can get through your own guilt and shame about doing it. If I could go back and transition again, knowing what I know now and not needing to get over myself so much... aside from the damage to my marriage, it would pretty much be a non-event.
2) You don't have to "be a woman inside" to justify transitioning. All that stuff it political wackiness thrown about by people trying to justify something they feel insecure about themselves, IMHO. Needs > Reasons.
3) Just do what YOU need to do to "transition." Everyone's needs are unique, as is everyone's transition. For God's sake, don't get caught up in all the endless battles of what makes a "Real TS" and "Real Woman." Don't do something because some insecure person tells you "All real TSs would..." Do you want to be a Real TS? Or a real YOU? Figure YOURSELF out, and let them have their pointless battles while you go off and fix what you gotta fix to be happy. You don't need to please THEM or fit someone's definitions to be happy... you just gotta be YOU.
~Kate~
Honestly I think that this post says it all. Since coming here I have seen a progression of divides that really are disturbing. It's a shame that people think that thier experience is automatically "How it is".
Imagine for a second that two people were at the same party. One focused on a couple arguing the entire night and the other focused on this group of people having a bunch of fun. Because the human brain can only intake so much, neither persons' perception is entirely true.
Opinions based on experiences may be true, however they are not fact. One couldn't possibly get the whole experience and so people's experiences differ and the sad part is we are arguing over something so MINOR.
Transition and live your life, and stop arguing over how people phrase their experience.
Charlotte
Quote from: MeganRose on August 04, 2007, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: taru on August 04, 2007, 01:56:12 AM
I feel the same way about this.
Saying that I didn't have a choice would imply to me personally that I don't take responsiblity for my actions and that I am unable to control my life at all.
Nice to know I'm not the only one :).
Megan
You definately aren't the only one. It really is a choice for me. I'm weighing the costs (emotional, physical, health related, financial, and social) of pursuing transition with the costs (emotional, health related and mental) of not pursuing transition.
I pride myself on being a person that can take a lot of emotional and mental punishment so it remains to be seen if I can make due with just dressing as me and such. Day by day however the choice is starting to look like a choice between being a transitioned woman and being almost completely nonfunctional or even dead.
But that's still a choice.
And really, a transsexual is someone who has Gender Identity Disorder, not someone who believes they are fated to get surgery. Feeling that I do have a choice (even if its a really awful choice) doesn't make my GID any less real. It just means I'm willing to see my own responsibility for my actions as real.
Just because someone wants to play the victim or martyr card so they don't have to take responsibility for their life doesn't mean they ought run around telling people that their gender identity is invalid.
Posted on: August 04, 2007, 01:22:07 PM
Quote from: MeganRose on August 04, 2007, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: Blanche on August 04, 2007, 03:17:31 AM
get a second opinion, even a third a fourth a fifth. You got a choice. what do you want to do this for? ???
I chose to be happy. Why is that so confusing?
It really shouldn't be. For some reason people are refusing to see that even a very negative or awful choice is still a choice. There's no magical SRS fairy that sprinkles us with mind control dust and makes us go under the knife.
And our GID doesn't just teleport into the Abyss if we decide we can't afford the surgery or we decide that we can handle the pain of being in the wrong body structure. Its still alive and kicking no matter what you do.
personally, i had no choice to transition, but i had my choices in HOW i transitioned... i couldnt live as male, im a girl. end of.
BUT there is choice, as much as we try to claim were ->-bleeped-<-er or more female, and that there isnt. one could very well die a male, you could comit suicide, many have. the choice is to live, and to live is to be yourself.
R :police:
This is all just semantics here. A choice to transition or commit suicide is still a choice.
yarrp
R :police:
Agreed. I don't think it's a choice to transition or live unhappily as a male, but rather a choice to transition now or later for the transsexual. Choices yes, but transition (perhaps later) or suicide are the two inevitable results.
I started another controversial topic. :icon_joy:
hehe, wellcome to the contraversial club! good topic, make more like it!
R :police:
Quote from: Tink on August 04, 2007, 01:02:39 PM
So yes, we are winners, we are survivors, we are lucky, we are heroes indeed.
Quite so, and let me say that I DO realize that you, Cindy, Keira and many others DID go through hades to get where you are. I'd never want to dismiss your struggle and pain and the courage it took to forge through all that regardless of the cost.
BUT, I just think it's important to note that it's not always that way. Transitions are unique to the individual, their particular environment, and *especially* to their particular inner struggle within themselves to come to terms with this. THAT'S the main battleground it seems... how we decide to explain to ourselves who we are, what we need to do, and why we need to do it.
Yes, I too got to a "transition or death" point in my life. But transitioning was STILL a choice I made. I chose to accept my fate, I chose to accept this as my challenge for this lifetime. Taking that choice away from me takes away my self-esteem, as I'm unbelievably proud of myself for doing this in spite of all the dire warnings I received, both from others AND my own insecurities.
But looking back now, aside from my marital problems, all the battles and trauma and worries I went through were pretty much ONLY in my own head. THAT was my struggle, that was the only real problem. *I* was the problem, the hell, the torture... my own insecurities and fears which seem a natural consequence of bottling something like this up for four decades. Aside from that, nothing bad happened to me while transitioning. Strangers congratulated me, told me I'm brave, and even THANKED me for doing it.. saying it's inspired them to pursue THEIR needs.
I once asked my muse,
"This is just too good to be true... are you telling me I can do ANYTHING?"She just smiled that mischevious smile of hers, and said,
"No... but you can do THIS."And so I did. I DID it. My choice. And no one can take that away from me now: no "read" from strangers, no xy chromosomes test, no one telling me I'm not "real" because I'm not like them. If someone asks you,
"why did you transition?" and you reply with anything other than
"because I CHOSE to," then you're going to spend the rest of your life chasing a ghost and looking over your shoulder. If it was
"because I had no choice," you're going to spend decades defending that by being suicidal and self-destructive to prove it. If it's
"because I'm a woman inside," you're going to be locked in endless battles to defend your idea of what a "real woman" is. If it's
"because I'm a transsexual," then you're going to be constantly defining to people what a "real transsexual" is.
But if you just say,
"because I chose to," the debate stops. That's it. Done. What's to attack? People can tell you they think it's a stupid choice, but so what? They're not me. Right or wrong, good idea or bad, I CHOSE TO DO THIS, and I stand by that choice the best way I know how...
By LIVING it as best I can.
~Kate~
Quote from: Jonni Smith on August 04, 2007, 08:21:51 AM
True it was a choice for me. Transition or kill myself eventually.So yes it was a choice and I chose life!
When I out myself (happens a lot on cruise ships), I try to make it a teachable moment. The way you describe choice is also the way I do it, Jonni. The choice is whether or not to pull the trigger or to swallow the pills. I too chose life.
Once diagnosed as TS, I didn't really consider 'choice.' I listened to the still quiet voice and took a next step when it felt right. Was I ever scared or nervous? Of course. If someone isn't doing some soul searching as the surgery date looms, that's a person I'd be worried about.
"On the gurney, Doctor? Mmmmm. Nice warm blanket. Count??? 100, 99, 98, ,,,,, 97,,,,,......____________"
Robyn
Tink,
Thanks for posting those links. I will always tell someone to turn away from this and never come back to it if they can. If you can make a choice to stay away, please do so. None of this is a happy path. There are many problems to deal with for the rest of your life.
Relationships, at best, are strained. My husband has to put up with all the old crap my family manages to come up with the dig up every few months. He's a sweetheart... somehow it makes our relationship stronger.... I don't know why. Still, I know it is very difficult for him.
In regards to transition, I did make choices. In my case, it would have been better I had made those choices much earlier in my life. I may have prevented much unhappiness for so many people. Still, I have no regrets. I know that I did the best that I could. Had I to live my life over, I doubt that my choices would have been much different.
I wonder for those who do manage to write of their regrets in transition, if a simple castration would have helped clear their head for a time. My best friend and I have discussed this at length. She wonders this for herself. She does not regret transition but she wonders about the influences of testosterone and the fetishes on people's choices to transition.
Certainly if you tend to sit on the fence and suddenly come to a realization that this is the thing to do, you might consider an orchiectomy first. After all, you probably don't want to have children being so messed up in the first place. If you can free yourself from the testosterone, perhaps it may help. I am not a physician and I'm just throwing this out as an idea to help prevent someone from falling into transition where they might not belong. Please don't consider this sound advice by any means!
Cindi
Transition can be thought as a form of choice when you're still undecided of what you are. Agree with Robyn. Once you know it isn't a choice anymore. Other peeps like me always knew we didnt have alternatives so it was never a question of choice. If I had had a choice, I would have decided to forget about transition. Nobody in their right mind and having a choice would want to subject themselves to this horrid struggle.
Quote from: Yvonne on August 04, 2007, 05:26:12 PM
Transition can be thought as a form of choice when you're still undecided of what you are. Agree with Robyn. Once you know it isn't a choice anymore.
I do agree with this... sorta.
Seeing The Truth inside ourselves reveals what must be done. And sometimes, people take it backwards and try to do things in order to make something true... which is when people get into trouble.
Still though, even though I only had one path before me, I still chose to take that first step... and the next.. and...
QuoteNobody in their right mind and having a choice would want to subject themselves to this horrid struggle.
Why not? It's certainly a gamble, but nowhere it is written in stone that ALL transitions are a horrid struggle or that
"None of this is a happy path". Maybe for some people, yes it is that way. But not always, not for everyone. Is it possible that it's our own internalized transphobia that makes us say it's not a choice? That only insane people would choose this?
Think about it: imagine someone coming here and saying,
"Hey, I was thinking... I'm curious what living as the other sex would be like, so I decided to transition and find out. Life is short, and I want to experience it from both sides."Can you IMAGINE the responses they'd get? I sure can. They'd be roasted alive. But WHY? Is changing one's sex THAT shameful, that "wrong" that it's only OK to do if we can justify it somehow through "no choice," or "I'm a REAL woman inside!" or whatever?
This whole thing is just one big ocean of shame and guilt... to the point I don't think people even SEE it anymore, just like birds don't notice the air or fish the sea. We're so USED to it, everyone has grown up IN it... it's like we're so used to thrashing around, trying to avoid drowning, we don't realize that we're in the shallow end and all we have to do is just... stand up.
~Kate~
I don't really appreciate it being alluded to that those who see themselves as having a choice are not in their "right minds" if they go ahead with their transition. Calling someone crazy because they made a decision to make their life better, instead of just feeling like they just had to do it and had no other option, is in no way a fair judgement to be making and it hurts me when people start to throw it out there.
There is still a decent part of the population who would say that we are all crazy for trying to change our sex, that we should just cop what we were dealt and just live with it. It doesn't help when the same sentiments start echoing around between TS people for what really seems to be the most petty of reasons. If you know you aren't crazy for transitioning, you know it would hurt if people started to think you were and make off-hand remarks about it. Please have some consideration before you keep posting things like this.
Megan
Quote from: MeganRose on August 04, 2007, 06:23:18 PM
I don't really appreciate it being alluded to that those who see themselves as having a choice are not in their "right minds" if they go ahead with their transition. Calling someone crazy because they made a decision to make their life better, instead of just feeling like they just had to do it and had no other option, is in no way a fair judgement to be making and it hurts me when people start to throw it out there.
*gives Megan hugs*
Personally I think its the strangest bit of irony that they allude to such a thing. Those of us that recognize that we're responsible for our decisions and that this is a choice (no matter how nasty of a choice it may admittedly be) are the ones that are in our right mind. Mainly because we are capable of actually admitting to reality.
Those that delude themselves into thinking that its fate, or make themselves think that they're so freaking crazy they don't have a choice because of they need some kind of ridiculous justification for something that shouldn't be such a huge social issue, those are the ones that frighten me. Its so horrifically self destructive to act as though "real transsexuals" have no choice at all and attach this specter of insanity to our actions just so one can justify it to one's own shame or the social judgments of others.
And I think we can all agree that belittling people that don't share our views and claiming their GID is not as valid or needs to be checked out because they view their responsibilities for their life in a different way is just vicious and wrong.
I may think that the people that are making all these nasty implications about me, and Megan and others may not have a firm grasp on reality and are setting themselves up for a fall long after transition, but I would never make the claim that their GID isn't valid.
Very shameful.
Know? No no, once I realized that being in the state that I was was the thing that was causing so SO much of the pain, I made a choice. But yes I did still have a choice, I think... it is not like there was much debate ;)
*shrug* Perhaps it is just differing perceptions.
Actually it probably is perception all in all. I know I was a girl in my last life, four footed and furred. An I know I almost was a girl in this life. What I did not realize until I decided to transition that in this life what was causing me so much pain is that I still am a girl and that mismatch of self, SELF and body was causing me a great deal of hurt. Mind, When I was still in grade school and realized that I would "swap sexes if I could have a proper body" I really, REALLY should have got a clue from that, lol.
But all in all I believe tolerances run differently. I, personally, am not going to try and judge how trans someone is, at the very least because I know I do not have enough information and frankly it isn't my business anyway. If someone hurts I am sorry, I do what I can and I CARE...
So, differing perceptions or differences of opinion not withstanding, does it matter?
Quote from: Yvonne on August 04, 2007, 05:26:12 PM
If I had had a choice, I would have decided to forget about transition. Nobody in their right mind and having a choice would want to subject themselves to this horrid struggle.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Its harsh to grasp but its the truth. Only someone who is a masochist or mental would choose to lose family, friends, jobs, spouses, children, and finances over all this. I did all that because there wasnt another option. Death was one but I didnt want to kill myself so I guess I made a decision at the end, I chose to live and be me.
I may be trying to come across as a martyr ::). Dunno what makes me more of a martyr; to say that I hadnt a choice or to say that I did have a
choice and that all that I cry over for what happens in my life now is because of that
choice I made.
Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then? Its what I have
chosen, innit?
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Its harsh to grasp but its the truth. Only someone who is a masochist or mental would choose to lose family, friends, jobs, spouses, children, and finances over all this. I did all that because there wasnt another option. Death was one but I didnt want to kill myself so I guess I made a decision at the end, I chose to live and be me.
Well, I didn't lose any friends, didn't have a partner, don't have any children, haven't lost a job, and my family are slowly coming to accept me. Sure I've had to spend a fair amount of money on the process, I've had to face a lot of ignorance as far as the general public goes, and there was a while where my family and I weren't on speaking terms, but that's it. Can you please explain why am I mental or a masochist
FOR CHOOSING TO TRY AND MAKE MY LIFE BETTER?I'm sorry, but no-one here has a right to call me crazy and it's really getting to me. I'm sure those who don't believe they had a choice, or a choice only between transition or suicide, would not appreciate being called insane for feeling that way, can you PLEASE step back and try and see that you are really offending quite a few people here who in no way deserve that type of treatment? Try and have some compassion, as human beings we
all deserve that.
Megan
Quote from: MeganRose on August 05, 2007, 04:22:59 AM
Try and have some compassion, as human beings we all deserve that.
Megan
To ask for compassion, peeps have to learn how to give it first. Have you considered the possibility that I might have been offended and hurt when you and others call transition a choice?
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 04:28:59 AM
To ask for compassion, peeps have to learn how to give it first. Have you considered the possibility that I might have been offended and hurt when you and others call transition a choice?
I'm in no way making universal claims. I stated that I saw MY transition as MY choice. And I specifically stated that this was my opinion, which I was only applying to myself. I have no issue with you if you feel that you had no choice, and I have in no way tried to devalue your feelings or your beliefs. Why you would feel hurt by what I believe about myself and no other individual I cannot understand. I'm sorry if others HAVE tried to do this, it's not fair and I would apologise on their behalf if I could.
But calling anyone who sees transition as a choice insane is NOT talking about the individual. You are labelling a lot of people in an offensive way because they have experienced things in a different way from you. I'm sorry, but I don't appreciate it. I find this to be directly insulting, to be devalued in this way for what seems like no rational reason. I can understand why you might be uncomfortable with the idea that some people can see transition as a choice, but that is no reason to make comments implying they are crazy.
Really, I'm offended because in my eyes you should know better.
Megan
I am unclear about something and forgive my lack of compassion.. ::)
I dont frequent this website everyday but I have read some very disturbing posts about the same people who now claim that transition is a choice. OK, maybe I am the mental case here or I am not understanding something correctly. People choose transition to be happy. Shouldnt their posts be about the happiness they have found instead of the horrid experiences they are facing now? what I read here doesnt match what I have read in other threads from the same posters. funny, innit? considering that transition is beautiful and a path people choose to be happy.
Life isn't all beauty, puppies and happy thoughts, I imagine you would understand that though.
Just because I decided to do something to be happy doesn't mean that there are now no bad things in the world, no people to hurt me, nothing to get upset about, that's its now all sunshine and rainbows 24/7/365. I'm still a human being, I'm still living a human life and it would be ridiculous to assume that because I chose to do something to make me happy that I'm happy all the time?
I'm happier though. A lot happier. Just because every post I write on this forum isn't about how overjoyed I am to be a beautiful creature living a beautiful existence in a beautiful world doesn't mean I don't have my moments. And I think the same could be said of everyone here, more or less.
Megan
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
Dunno what makes me more of a martyr; to say that I hadnt a choice or to say that I did have a choice and that all that I cry over for what happens in my life now is because of that choice I made.
This, I believe, is close to the source of the current fighting. I get the distinct impression that you, and others who claim there was no choice, think that a
choice would be free of outside constraints. Those who argue there is a choice (like me) tend to think that the freedom in that choice varies a lot from one person to another.
It's clear that for some the choice really is that between life and death; not much freedom there. For others, though, it may not be quite as restricted, even though the choice is not completely free for most of this group either. Some of these others still transition, and fulfill the diagnostic criteria for transsexuality.
Now, could we move on to something else?
Nfr
Quote from: Kate on August 04, 2007, 12:38:38 PM
QuoteWhy TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS
Because some people build an identity based on being victimized and martyred. Choice = responsibility, and they need to avoid responsibility at all costs lest they not be passive, helpless victims anymore. Plus it destroys the whole, "Don't transition! It's the most terrible thing you'll ever go through and only people like me could do it!" bragging. Some people are self-destructive, and it manifests in both thought and action. Endless suicide "attempts," self-mutilations, drug addictions...
My guess is these people have never worked through their own internalized shame and guilt, so it HAS to be "no choice" so they and others can't "blame" them for the things they feel shameful about.
Personally, I think transition is a *beautiful* thing. It's not some awful death sentence, though these people do their best to paint it as some horrific experience in order to make themselves look like martyred, reluctant heroes.
Here's some thoughts:
1) Transition itself has it's risks and troubles. But it CAN be relatively easy to do IF IF IF you can get through your own guilt and shame about doing it. If I could go back and transition again, knowing what I know now and not needing to get over myself so much... aside from the damage to my marriage, it would pretty much be a non-event.
2) You don't have to "be a woman inside" to justify transitioning. All that stuff it political wackiness thrown about by people trying to justify something they feel insecure about themselves, IMHO. Needs > Reasons.
3) Just do what YOU need to do to "transition." Everyone's needs are unique, as is everyone's transition. For God's sake, don't get caught up in all the endless battles of what makes a "Real TS" and "Real Woman." Don't do something because some insecure person tells you "All real TSs would..." Do you want to be a Real TS? Or a real YOU? Figure YOURSELF out, and let them have their pointless battles while you go off and fix what you gotta fix to be happy. You don't need to please THEM or fit someone's definitions to be happy... you just gotta be YOU.
~Kate~
I really love your views on these things.
To me, it just comes down to priorities.
No offense meant to anyone here but If I had children, I would put all of this on the back burner and soldier on for them. If I honestly believed that this was against my religious beliefs, I would do the same thing. Hell, I am constantly looking for a comfortable medium between killing myself and killing this thing that all the people that I love have become so ->-bleeped-<-ing attached to, that thing being me as male.
If you are the most important thing to you, than God bless. But how dare some of you attempt to berate others just because them be trying to go a different route or have their values somewhere else. As anyone who has been to the bottom knows well enough, you would be surprised what one can go without. Their is resilliance is no shot at you so stop shooting at them.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 04, 2007, 05:21:58 PM
I wonder for those who do manage to write of their regrets in transition, if a simple castration would have helped clear their head for a time. My best friend and I have discussed this at length. She wonders this for herself. She does not regret transition but she wonders about the influences of testosterone and the fetishes on people's choices to transition.
Certainly if you tend to sit on the fence and suddenly come to a realization that this is the thing to do, you might consider an orchiectomy first. After all, you probably don't want to have children being so messed up in the first place. If you can free yourself from the testosterone, perhaps it may help. I am not a physician and I'm just throwing this out as an idea to help prevent someone from falling into transition where they might not belong. Please don't consider this sound advice by any means!
Cindi
While I'm not so sure of the effects of testosterone on fetishes and people's subsequent choice to transition, I do believe that your advice on getting a castration first is sound. I don't know about the whole "choice" thing in regards to being TS (and I know this was said before, but just to restate since I agree with this), but I do know that everyone makes a choice in regards to
how they will transition, not
if they will transition or not. I feel that to say otherwise just defies reality because as an individual, by saying you don't have a choice means you aren't willing to take responsibility for your actions. You may not have a choice in being TG/TS, but you certainly have a choice in regards to how you will handle being TG/TS.
An Orchiectomy is the path I am seeking Cindi, because I feel that a TG transition is right for me. At first I wanted a TS transition - SRS, FFS, etc - but now after 5+ months HRT, I don't need FFS because hormones have changed my face enough where I pass. I don't feel SRS will make me any happier. These are the choices I've made to deal with my gender dyphoria.
Just adding my two cents.
~Fae
I don't believe that there has been much research in the effects of an orchiectomy where we are concerned. That's why I've thrown it out there as a valid possibility.
That, my friends, IS a choice!
Cindi
Quote
Why TS's say that those with a choice aren't really TS
What difference does it make? I mean, who cares what anyone thinks. The question has a built in presumption TS's don't have a choice, which is by no means a certainty. So it's asking why those who dont feel it's a choice would say anyone that has a choice is not. Well that seems real simple too. We all want to justify and validate our own beliefs. I agree with what Kate said about it.
The bottom line is this, I don't know about anyone's gender identity except my own. And despite what anyone might say, they don't know about mine. It's all self diagnosed. It all boils down to what a person feels inside. There are always choices, perhaps some of the choices are not so pleasant, like being dead, but none the less, it's still a choice. People don't accidentally transition. It takes a great deal of effort. Once must choose to put forth the effort.
I see "I had no choice" as a metaphor more than an actuality. It means that for that person, it was the only viable choice to create some kind of happiness in their life and end the suffering. Those who transition and warn others not to can be taken in two ways. On one hand we can see a some of the element of "I did it, but it's too hard for you" and on the other hand "Transition is painful both emotionally and physically, make sure you are really hurting before you take this path."
In the end though, each person has to accept their gender identity and decide what to do about it. I just don't believe in absolutes because I can see no evidence of it anywhere else. Why would transsexualism be any different? All women are not the same, all men are not the same and all transsexuals are not the same. That will be true of any subculture within the human race, as far as everyone in any group being the same.
We each have our own experience and what we do about it. I am not sure why people who consider themselves to be "true transsexuals" want to tell others they are not transsexuals, but I suspect that a lot of what Kate said is true. I also am very skeptical of any advice that comes in the form of anyone telling anyone who or what they are. I just don't believe anyone can know. Too much of what we experience as human beings is abstract. It's a miracle we can communicate at all, but it's unlikely we can know how anyone feels. We can't even know that the words we use have the same meaning to all of us.
I have a policy about "free advise". Take what is useful to me, and leave the rest. I can't say what anyone else is experiencing, but if they can not see my point of view, it's obvious they are not experiencing the same thing as me or I am not making myself clear. In either event, it won't change the experience either of us have. I come here to see how others cope with this and what they have done. If the object is to influence me to not transition because I am not a "true transsexual", being insulting and condescending will not meet that end.
Opinions are nice, but they are based on a person's own experience, which usually make them useless to anyone else. That is why it is so important to know when someone is espousing an opinion or fact. And when it comes to transsexualism, there seems to be a real shortage of facts. That means everyone has to become their own expert. The problem with this is that this particular expertise only applies to ourselves and not others. We can only offer our experience as one of many for others to consider.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
Quote from: Yvonne on August 04, 2007, 05:26:12 PM
If I had had a choice, I would have decided to forget about transition. Nobody in their right mind and having a choice would want to subject themselves to this horrid struggle.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Its harsh to grasp but its the truth. Only someone who is a masochist or mental would choose to lose family, friends, jobs, spouses, children, and finances over all this. I did all that because there wasnt another option. Death was one but I didnt want to kill myself so I guess I made a decision at the end, I chose to live and be me.
You made the right choice for you in bolded. But you did still make a choice. A very good choice, but one nevertheless.
And not everyone's transition is going to be a horrific trial of doom. Some are really bad and others are actually relatively easy. That's the thing there, every transition is different.
Quote
I may be trying to come across as a martyr ::). Dunno what makes me more of a martyr; to say that I hadnt a choice or to say that I did have a choice and that all that I cry over for what happens in my life now is because of that choice I made.
Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then? Its what I have chosen, innit?
Well just because you made a choice doesn't mean that you can't bemoan the difficulties of the world. Its not your fault that society is so vicious to transsexuals. Being angry or upset that the choice is such a difficult one is perfectly valid.
Posted on: August 05, 2007, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 04:28:59 AM
Quote from: MeganRose on August 05, 2007, 04:22:59 AM
Try and have some compassion, as human beings we all deserve that.
Megan
To ask for compassion, peeps have to learn how to give it first. Have you considered the possibility that I might have been offended and hurt when you and others call transition a choice?
I think you're getting caught up in the idea that a horrible awful option and a really good option in comparison aren't choices because you'd never pick the horrible awful option and figure that very few people would pick that option either. The fact is you did make a choice. You made a choice to live. In your case that was your options.
Not everyone has a horrific transition, as shown by Megan's experiences and others. Not everyone has to chose between death and losing family, friends, finances and children. Some people have better options, lived in better areas with less bigotry or even received training to deal with psychological and emotional pain and trauma in a way that reduces the impact of GID.
Acting as though the most painful transition path in existence is the only thing anyone would go through when transitioning is showing a lack of perspective. Not everyone is you. Not everyone is me. And some people don't have the exact same options, worldview and life you did.
Posted on: August 05, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 05, 2007, 02:48:40 PM
I see "I had no choice" as a metaphor more than an actuality. It means that for that person, it was the only viable choice to create some kind of happiness in their life and end the suffering.
You put it so much better then I did and in two sentences.
I'm jealous.
;D
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then? Its what I have chosen, innit?
ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 04:54:19 AM
I have read some very disturbing posts about the same people who now claim that transition is a choice. what I read here doesnt match what I have read in other threads from the same posters.
are you talking about their blogs or the cold-hearted comment they made about mtf puberty being a
breeze? >:D
i know what you mean. talk about being mental, eh? :D i stopped reading their confusing threads several months ago. i'd
ignore them if i could but i can't. ;)
hey fer, if you chose transition, why the hell are you complaining about not passing, being read in your job and losing your spouse. you chose it didn't cha? deal with it damn it! >:D stop acting like a martyr!
this quote from renee richards is enlightening;
QuoteIt's not something for somebody in their 40s to do, someone who's had a life as a man, - - - If you're 18 or 20 and never had the kind of (advantages) I had, and you're oriented in that direction, sure, go ahead and make right what nature didn't. But if you're a 45-year-old man and you're an airline pilot and you have an ex-wife and three adolescent kids, you better get on Thorazine or Zoloft or Prozac or get locked up or do whatever it takes to keep you from being allowed to do something like this.
Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say. That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then? Its what I have chosen, innit?
ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!
so because i chose a path that will make me happier in the long run, i can't complain about the obstacles that others (even entire societies) put in my way? although we see two paths we know that one will lead to a paradise and the other to a hell. But the one leading to the paradise is plastered full of the litter of other people (like broken glass.. which can really hurt if you step on that)! We chose the path but i think we should still complain. If we complain, the path might be cleaned and not only for us but for others too. And if we complain we might get a helping hand who can guide us around the parts that hurt of the path. But the best part of that path are those little lookouts which are scattered all over the way and lets you get a glimpse of that better place. We could have chosen the painless path, but its a long one that leads farther and farther into the dark depressing woods until you get to a cliff, fall and land in hell.
hell, should i give an example from a book/movie (actually movie, gives more imagery)? Lord of the rings! Frodo chose to take the ring to mount doom, so that all evil would perish. Other people stopped him on the way, evil orcs, gollum, Boromir, Faramir. Misguided and also bad intentioned people. It always got more difficult. He complained and Sam helped him. He CHOSE to take the ring to mt. doom for the ultimate good, shouldn't he have complained? You make it seem that as he chose to do that that the path shouldnt hurt him, but it did...
Or you could say that he didn't have a choice, he was the only person who could take the ring that far.
telling myself that i had a choice in everything i did, makes every choice more meaningful and makes me think harder about everything i choose. there were too many people who "knew" there was no other choice than to transition, and then regretted it. i wanted to be sure that i wouldn't be one of those people, and now i am certain at the end of which path hell lies, and know that i have to take the other one. Does the other one take me to my paradise? i hope so, if not, its still a lot better than the other path(s) (you, know, theres still the androgyne path, and the crossdresser path and so on, but their destinations aren't much better than the male path either)
if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy". really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen". period.
Quote from: Melissa on August 04, 2007, 03:32:55 PM
I started another controversial topic.
That you did, but all this discussion about choice forgets one point. To have choice you must have opportunities to choose among. If a transistion was not possible, such as 50+ years ago or in some places in the world today, what difference would it make if you want to transistion, the choice doesn't exist. It's because of medical technology (psychological help, drugs, surgeries, etc.) and legal status that a transistion is a possibility. If none of this existed, what choice(s) would you have, because transistion wouldn't be among them?
*sighs*
I was really trying not to get involved in this one because I believe this is a semantics argument - at least the way it's written.
But seeing as this topic just won't die and keeps popping up at the top of my post list... ::)
So, what exactly is the question here? Is this just a semantics argument about whether one person defines 'transition or die' as a choice or not?
Or a question of 'transition or blow your head off' vs 'transition or just live as your birth gender'?
Well this is food for thought after reading all the responses. For me it would have to be choice weather or not I decide to transition fully and not so I can wear womens clothes, I can do that right now after carefully applying makeup and pass. I would transition to make myslef feel whole as a woman. I may have lived my life as a man and not to happly either, but I know I can live out the rest of my life as woman and make many friends along the way. If I decide to transition fully it will be my choice and my choice alone. Given the factors, finacial, pain, hurt, lonleyness, loosing family and friends I have now, I think making a full transition may or may not be a good thing, but I dont know what the future looks for me. I may very well get the support I need from some family. I think my sister would support me I dont know about the rest of my family. As for friends, well if they support me fine if not then I will make new friends. Not a big deal really as I have been lonely most of my life.
Linda Ann :angel:
Love being female
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
Quote from: Fer on August 05, 2007, 03:07:12 AM
Moreover, if I had a choice and chose to transition, why shall I cry over the hardships of transition then? Its what I have chosen, innit?
ha ha ha ha ha right on the nail!
Because most of those hardships are independent of the transition itself and are caused by our asinine society. That's something that should be changed and should be seen as bad. Complaining about it isn't as useful as working to defeat these social inequalities, but accepting them as inevitable (and invariably doing nothing to remove them) is just as bad, or even perhaps worse.
A person who transitions to be happy and realizes they hate having breasts shouldn't complain. A person that transitions and hates the way people treat transsexuals has every right to complain, because society is filled with jerks and what they do to us is not right.
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy". really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen". period.
Lol do I cry too bloody much? ;) I do. Sorry. I deserve it. I chose it.
muaaaahhhhh
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy". really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen". period.
I may be acting a little self-centred here, but I assume that since I was the one who actually made the point of saying I transitioned to be happy, you are referencing my blog and other previous posts? If that is the case, I'd like to say something before I regret over-reacting.
Have you actually
read anything I have ever written on this forum? Go ahead, sift through my blog if you think it won't make you too physically ill. Yes, I've written some pretty depressed "why is this happening to me" type stuff - and really, I have every right to. What, you think I should be overjoyed by something like feeling like I'm losing my family, or feel happy that I was alive to experience something wonderous and beautiful like being drugged and assaulted at a party and then being told by a doctor that it was my own fault? I'd really like to see you justify that, I really would. Tell me to my face I have no right to be upset about feeling alone, worthless, and being in pain. I'd really like to know if you could actually be that heartless, come on, prove it to me.
I'm sick of this, I really am. Why I'm expending energy on people who obviously think I'm less than them, deserving of being labelled as insane, deluded and of possessing some kind of martyr complex, simply because I see my life and the directions I have taken it in differently to them, I have no idea. I'm obviously not going to convince anyone that I'm not insane, or that I'm deserving of the same respect that you would treat others with, who have already decided that I am. In my eyes, those of you posting comments like this are no better than the person in their car, leaning out the window and screaming "->-bleeped-<-got" as I walk past. My only doubt is over which is really the more bigotted, discriminatory view.
Megan
Everything in life is a choice, some choices are just heavily weighted in one direction to the extent where it doesnt look like a choice.
R :police:
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy". really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen". period.
i understand why you say that it isn't a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let's use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it's somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can't handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn't complain about the bad quality?
ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you'd have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don't actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice "welcome... idiot". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as "clothes for freaks") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn't file a complaint?
mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions
i think its less to do with insainity, its more that some people belive they must state they felt one way, to be accepted as 'truely transexual' by the ->-bleeped-<-stapo...
R :police:
Quote from: Ell on August 06, 2007, 09:00:39 AM
those who say they had no choice will be respected by the caregivers following SOC guidlines, if they can show that their desperation is not caused by some innate reason of insanity.
those who say they have a choice will be respected by the caregivers following SOC guidelines if they can show that their decision is well-founded and not caused by some innate reason of insanity.
in both cases, SOC guidelines require the patient to be fully aware of the consequences of, and accept personal responsibility for their decision(s).
so, unless, heaven forbid, you're insane, the SOC will treat both types of patient with the same respect.
While my therapist and my endo made me fully aware of the consequences of my actions, the word "choice" never came up, but nevertheless I did choose to see a therapist for my gender issues, and I chose to begin HRT after sorting out issues with my therapist. Both fully respect me and the decisions I've made to better myself.
Yes there have been some consequences, but mostly I haven't had much to complain about, so I don't (aside from the occasional day where the hormones make me feel moody...I swear it's PMS :laugh:) unless I'm feeling sad or someone treats me badly for no reason.
I think I have the right to do that much.
Quote from: Anaya on August 06, 2007, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you "chose" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you'd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don't know who you are trying to fool with this "i chose transition to be happy". really? well, then i don't want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have "chosen". period.
i understand why you say that it isn't a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let's use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it's somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can't handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn't complain about the bad quality?
ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you'd have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don't actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice "welcome... idiot". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as "clothes for freaks") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn't file a complaint?
mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions
I love those comparisons Anaya.
It's like if you lived in a really bad, polluted city and had no means to move. There's no real alternatives to make the air cleaner. You know that because you need to breathe in order to live, you breathe, knowing full well that the air is polluted so badly that it will cause serious health complications. Does that mean you make a choice not to breathe? Of course not, that'd be silly. But that doesn't mean you don't complain about the bad air quality.
The same applies for transition. For some people (myself included) the situation got so bad it came down to
a choice to transition or to continue suffering (a.k.a. dying). Nobody wants to choose the latter, right? It's like my air quality example, it's just silly.
However you look at it, you made a choice, but that doesn't mean that you can't complain. There are factors we need to consider IMO. If, for example, you have been on HRT for several months and pass most of the time, have been to therapy on a regular basis, decide to go full-time and are relatively stable (holding down a job, attending school, have a support base, etc.), then if people treat you poorly you have a right to complain because they're just being rude and inconsiderate. You do the best you can, but it doesn't mean there aren't hardships you just forget about as if they don't bother you.
BUT, if you were to jump right into living full-time without HRT, without therapy, and were not relatively stable, and people harassed and even outright threatened you, then I would say you have created your own personal little hell, and don't really have the right to complain because you're at fault.
And please, this is all IMHO, and I ask that you respect that and think before anyone attacks me for my opinion.
~Fae
Choosing to transition is like choosing to breathe. You can choose not to breathe just like you can choose not to transition. Sooner or later you'll have to because the instinct to breathe or transition is built into us. Some people choose not to hold their breath until they run out of air and some people choose to hold their breath as long as possible until they nearly pass out. Some of the people realized holding your breath as long as you could was pointless, does not mean that they "chose" to breathe whereas the ones who held it as long as possible didn't "choose" to breathe, but just had to. Regardless of when the people started breathing, they still all needed to eventually breathe at some point.
I believe that this is just an argument of semantics. Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
Cindi
you mean we cannot all be sensible and listen to others??? :o :o
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 06, 2007, 09:07:06 AM
i think its less to do with insainity, its more that some people belive they must state they felt one way, to be accepted as 'truely transexual' by the ->-bleeped-<-stapo...
R :police:
Exactly.
The elitist bs is entirely what is going on here. Telling someone their GID is less valid because of worldviews is just the psychoelitist ->-bleeped-<-stapo trying to push everyone else down. Heaven forbid someone has a relatively uneventful transition. Heaven forbid someone sees their transition as a choice. Heaven forbid someone not follow gender stereotypes or be attracted to the opposite gender post HRT.
All of these ridiculous and stupid little rules we apparently have to follow to avoid being torn down by the people that
should understand the most what we're going through. Its sickening and frankly I see these elitist scumbags as no better then the hicks that ride past screaming "->-bleeped-<-got!" or "dyke!" or "chick with a dick!" out a window at us.
Its all the same kind of screwed up idiocy.
Posted on: August 06, 2007, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 06, 2007, 12:12:28 PM
I believe that this is just an argument of semantics. Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
It really is a semantics argument in the end. I just find it disgusting that some people use these semantics to be "->-bleeped-<--er then thou" and perpetuate the elitist bull that taints the transsexual community at every turn.
in a place where people hate thier penis, they must find something else to measure....
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on August 06, 2007, 12:27:40 PM
you mean we cannot all be sensible and listen to others??? :o :o
R :police:
no that would imply that the others might be right too, and that would make our side look less right. That is unacceptable!
sympathizing with the enemy... you must be one of them! trying to twist our minds! You want to take our souls! WITCH! BURRRRN!
yeah guess some of us (me? noooo) are overreacting
Quote from: Rachael
in a place where people hate thier penis, they must find something else to measure....
R :police:
my index finger is 8.5cm big, how big is yours? ;)
... damn it do i really have such big fingers?
and the 'omg provide evidence' people when someone lists a unexplainable given such as 'some people regret transition thus might not be suffering gid in the first place thus gid must not be the only cause of trans'
Quote from: Anaya on August 06, 2007, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you chose transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but youd better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i dont know who you are trying to fool with this i chose transition to be happy. really? well, then i dont want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have chosen. period.
i understand why you say that it isnt a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
lets use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it\\\'s somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i cant handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldnt complain about the bad quality?
ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you\\\'d have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i dont actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice welcome... idiot. So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as clothes for freaks) . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldnt file a complaint?
mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions
Lol forgive me for laughing but that is just the most absurd comparison Ive ever heard, more so if you take GID as an example. DVD, walmart, audio? Lol That was cute though, really cute. Thanks for the laugh.
Quote from: Anayammh i really should stop making so many comparisions
I think you should unless you want to pursue a career in the comedy business. :)
Quote from: Pia on August 06, 2007, 07:14:27 PM
Quote from: Anaya on August 06, 2007, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 07:26:05 PM
if you say that you \\\"chose\\\" transition to be happy, yet you sound unhappy in 95% of your threads, posts, and personal blog. Hey, sorry but you\\\'d better set your priorities right or stop acting like a martyr. i don\\\'t know who you are trying to fool with this \\\"i chose transition to be happy\\\". really? well, then i don\\\'t want to hear your whines about not being able to handle what you have \\\"chosen\\\". period.
i understand why you say that it isn\\\'t a choice, i do, but i just see it differently. *sigh*
let\\\'s use another comparison.
Theres a DVD i want. I heard it\\\'s somewhat badly made, but the movie is awesome and i just have to watch it. So thinking i can handle the problems of the dvd i buy it and play it back. Turns out i can\\\'t handle it. The AUdio frequently changes between english aaaand... mmhm spanish (some language you are remotely familiar with, but are really bad at), the subtitles are completely out of sync with the video and the video quality at certain points is just horrible.
So i watched the movie and liked it very very much, but as i said it had many problems. i chose to watche the movie knowing it had problems, so in your opinion i shouldn\\\'t complain about the bad quality?
ok another one:
Theres a Walmart with real bad costumer service, the kind that insults you and even might beat you up. But it is the only store with the brand of clothing items that you are not ... allergic to. You could say, that you\\\'d have no choice and have to buy those clothes (walking naked in public is of course not possible. Bart Simpson taught me that). I say that i could just go to the real friendly store on the other side of the road and live with a horrible rash and be sick all my life, and probably die early in life.
But i don\\\'t actually want that, so i choose to go over to walmart.
there you are greeted with a nice \\\"welcome... idiot\\\". So you go directly to those special clothes (marked there as \\\"clothes for freaks\\\") . You take them, turn around and suddenly see some walmart guy there who insults you and then proceeds to beat you up. things go on similarly all the way back to the exit of the store. Now, i chose to go to walmart although i knew that they would treat me that way, so according to you i shouldn\\\'t file a complaint?
mmh i really should stop making so many comparisions
Lol forgive for laughing but that is just the most absurd comparison Ive ever heard, more so if you take GID as an example. DVD, walmart, audio? Lol That was cute though, really cute. Thanks for the laugh.
you're welcome.
i always surprise myself with what i come up with when im real sleepy. Usually i don't even understand what i meant, but im sure it makes sense. :D
Quote from: MeganRose on August 06, 2007, 04:01:14 AM
I may be acting a little self-centred here, but I assume that since I was the one who actually made the point of saying I transitioned to be happy, you are referencing my blog and other previous posts?
megan, i wasn't referring to any of your posts or your blog, yet i think that didn't matter anyway since you said what you wanted to say. i said:
Quote from: Katia on August 05, 2007, 06:30:54 PM
i stopped reading their confusing threads several months ago. i'd ignore them if i could but i can't. ;)
;)
Quote from: Tink on August 03, 2007, 11:10:26 PM
In other words, what these women say is their opinion, it is up to each and every one of us to know if what we feel fits what they have said or not. People can say whatever they want but if we don't share the same feelings, nothing is going to change the way we view ourselves, our womanhood or "our" transition.
tink :icon_chick:
Tink, I know you watched Taboo last night, I forget who it was that said "It was not a choice!" This is the one clear mindset that separates the women from those who might have something else going on.
I would have to be completey out of mind to choose to start transition at 54, my whole life I knew what I was, I just didn't think it was possible, (I had a lot of bad information, it wasn't until the internet was available to me that I found out it was possible)
Of course, when and how to transition,what to do first, etc. are choices, I think some here who say it is a choice get caught up in semantics as well, my strong feeling is that if you do your soul searching and fundamentally still think this is a choice, it is likely that the best choice is not to transiton or, at least, consider every other alternative before you transition.
Posted on: August 09, 2007, 10:44:53 AM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 06, 2007, 12:12:28 PM
I believe that this is just an argument of semantics. Let's add some strong emotions to the mix and you have a boondoggle that can not be answered to everyone's satisfaction.
Cindi
I understand that some of the arguments are semantic, again, when to start transition, what to do first, do you have the financial capability, those are choices, it is like what people have always said about the music business, to succeed, you have to want it more than you have ever wanted anything and be prepared to make every sacrifice imaginable, then still know that the chances of making it are still almost non-existent. Fortunately, the chances of a successful transition are better than becoming a rock star. I am a successfully transitioned woman, not yet a rock star! :)
So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead!
Do not transition!
As a community though, could we come to a compromise on the matter of "choice?" I personally think, that:
As individuals, we don't have a "choice" in the matter of being born with gender dysphoria. I don't think anyone in their right mind would chose to deal with gender identity issues. So I think we can safely say there is no choice in being TG/TS.
HOWEVER, I want to make a clarification on what our choice IS. We do have a choice in how we handle our gender identity issues. If that is to transition, great. If it is to find some other way other than transition, awesome. But we do have a choice as responsible human beings.
Those who say "TS's with a choice arn't really TS" are, IMO, making a statement that just doesn't make sense. The real issue here is what their choice is regarding how they will handle their gender issues, NOT if they are TG/TS. If someone identifies themselves as TG/TS, then no one else should think they can take away that person's right to self identify just because they don't fit some kind of standard.
~Fae
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 10:55:35 AM
"It was not a choice!" This is the one clear mindset that separates the women from those who might have something else going on.
So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!
Agreed fully.
Quote from: Jeannette on August 09, 2007, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 10:55:35 AM
So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!
Agreed fully.
Why? Is it really
that awful?
Mind you, I am currently acting just the way you suggest: trying to figure out a way to cope with my GID without transitioning, and being pretty optimistic about the chances to succeed in this. Nevertheless, from what several people have said or implied, both here and elsewhere, transition isn't necessarily nearly as bad as you make it sound. In some cases this can even be predicted with a fair degree of certainty. In such a case, why could the person not choose to transition, if they were realistic about the risks and benefits?
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 09, 2007, 12:02:31 PM
Quote from: Jeannette on August 09, 2007, 11:23:56 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 10:55:35 AM
So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!
Agreed fully.
Why? Is it really that awful?
Mind you, I am currently acting just the way you suggest: trying to figure out a way to cope with my GID without transitioning, and being pretty optimistic about the chances to succeed in this. Nevertheless, from what several people have said or implied, both here and elsewhere, transition isn't necessarily nearly as bad as you make it sound. In some cases this can even be predicted with a fair degree of certainty. In such a case, why could the person not choose to transition, if they were realistic about the risks and benefits?
Nfr
I didn't say anything at all about my transition. You are assuming things that were not said. My transition was successful beyond my wildest dreams but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
Now, all you choice people who have not transitioned can choose to attack me or argue with my POV or you can try to understand my viewpoint as a successfully transitioned post-op women, not that you have to agree, just consider what I say as well as all those who innately know this is not a choice. Are we better or more truly "transsexual" than the choice people. Not at all, we just know how we feel.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
...but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely.
Well said Melissa90299.
Sarah L.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 09, 2007, 01:09:06 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
...but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely.
Well said Melissa90299.
Sarah L.
Thanks, I try very hard to convey what I have to say without trying to sound elitist.
What baffles me is that there seems to be an envy among some of the choice people of the non-choice people. It is like there seems to be some badge of honor that goes with being unequivocally transsexual. Usually, when I see baffling posts, I go back and read that member's other posts and realize that those people are very different (different not better or worse) from me in other ways as well.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
All right, I think I get it; the real difference in our points of view is just what we mean by 'choice'. At the point you describe, I would still consider it a choice, although an extremely limited one; and similarly, I most definitely would not suggest anyone to choose transition unles they were very very sure that it is the right choice for them.
All in all, I have a strong feling that we agree, except for the definition of one lousy word.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 09, 2007, 01:41:26 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
All right, I think I get it; the real difference in our points of view is just what we mean by 'choice'. At the point you describe, I would still consider it a choice, although an extremely limited one; and similarly, I most definitely would not suggest anyone to choose transition unles they were very very sure that it is the right choice for them.
All in all, I have a strong feling that we agree, except for the definition of one lousy word.
Nfr
That seems like the crux of the misunderstanding doesn't it?
The people that say that they didn't have a choice considered the option of transitioning versus the alternative (which is probably dying) as such an unviable option in comparison to the former that they have a hard time seeing a choice as a choice. A metaphor for a situation in which viability only lies in one option exactly.
They believe that by acknowledging that there are other options beyond transitioning (even if all those options suck or are just not viable) it means you aren't to the point where your choice is between transitioning and dying.
The people that say they do have a choice are simply stating the reality in a rather blunt and honest fashion. Killing oneself is an option, just an awful awful horrible one. So when they look at the choice between killing oneself and transitioning, they still see it (by definition) as a choice. The choice to die may be one that none of us would pick, but its still there.
These folks believe that by claiming you had no choice, you are acting as though fate is guiding your hand or that you aren't in control of your own actions.
Both groups are stable and intelligent in relation to their own views and off base completely in their assessments of their opponents. It would do us all good (myself included), no matter what your view is on this, to
actually read the opposition's posts before you assume what their reasoning is.
Megan and company (including myself) recognize that everything we do in our lives is a choice even if all the options but one are untenable.
Melissa and company recognize that when every option but one is completely horrific it becomes difficult to see them as options at all and sometimes when people can see them as options it implies a greater number of viable options.
Have we all learned something from each other now? Or is the bickering going to continue?
imo, transition is a choice, you decide when you do it. i mean, people have said hey have felt the need to in thier teens, but only been able to when they were older, or when they found out. so following that logic, if you state you knew and waited, then there IS a choice...
R :police:
Quote from: Seshatneferw on August 09, 2007, 12:02:31 PM
Why? Is it really that awful?
IMO, living as female in and of itself is not awful. In fact, I can't think of anything better. :) However, being that you are not a GG is what makes it so much harder. The transition itself and the losses you suffer during it can be too much for even the strongest person. Many people have to relearn socialization from a female perspective (often without any guidance) in a very short time. It costs a ton of money do successfully transition (and mine has been relatively cheap). Oh and let's not forget physical pain that will be endured such as electrolysis/laser and healing from surgery. Coming out on the job can be quite risky too. What about the time lost when having SRS and healing? Once you are done with the transition, the fun doesn't stop there. Did you know that you are supposed to dilate for the rest of your life? What about continuing hormones the rest of your life or going off of them and experiencing menopause?
After transition, you have issues to cope with that you have never had to (and this is assuming you pass perfectly). Such as explaining to people why you are unable to have children (or pretending to know what childbirth feels like without ever having experienced it if you do have kids like I do). You have oh so many records that needs to be changed once you legally change your name. Your previous name will come up on job searches and if somebody has a bias against you (or TS in general), they will disqualify you immediately for some "other reason", so you effectively limit the number of jobs you can ever apply to. You will have to work hard on your voice and it will never come naturally like it does to a GG. If you are trying to hide your past, you would have a an noticeable lack of childhood photos. What if you want to have a relationship with somebody? Coming out to a partner can be scary and you risk throwing away the entire relationship. There are some accepting people still, but the choices are much more limited. What if you are pre-op out and about and find yourself becoming a rape victim? What will happen to you when the rapist discovers that you have different genitalia than he was expecting?
As you can see, it doesn't look so bad on the surface, but if you REALLY look at what you are getting yourself into, you can see that there is a lot more costs hidden in the fine print.
i must admit, im getting to the stage where im wanting to get intimate with a guy i like, and i cant, because he doesnt know, and im afraid to tell him, its heartwrenching....
but your right mel, its a choice, its just a rathr difficult one to decide more than one way :P
If you take a strict literal view, everything is a choice, but it should be easily understood, at least I thought it should have been, that those on the "no choice" side are speaking metaphorically. Otherwise, we would be expecting people to believe that people are holding our mouths open and forcing premarin down our throats or kidnapping us and performing BAs and SRS on us without our consent.
Some level of comprehension was assumed by me that isn't there.
Posted on: August 09, 2007, 05:05:43 PM
Melissa 1 makes some good points, I have had four surgeries now, the surgeries themselves aren't that big a deal but the recovery is, in the case of SRS, my surgeon recommends that one take off 8 weeks after surgery, that is nearly three months altogether! Luckily, I have a great disability plan. Most people don't. In fact, I doubt whether or not most people would even be allowed to take that much time off and still have their job.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 10:55:35 AM
Tink, I know you watched Taboo last night, I forget who it was that said "It was not a choice!" This is the one clear mindset that separates the women from those who might have something else going on.
It was Dr. Marci Bowers who said that.
Quote"The Body is a fluid vehicle for the Soul.
Transition is just a catalyst for
spiritual emergence."
Marci L. Bowers, M.D.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 10:55:35 AM
So if you are not prepared to make every sacrifice, if you are not prepared to lose everything, if you think you can choose something else to help you get by, do that instead! Do not transition!
Can someone point me to some information that tells me how
I can live as a happy male?It seams my option are to live as a happy TG person (something I am trying), transistion or the other unthinkable option. No-one has told me how to be a happy male and I am affraid that I sometimes find it hard to live as a cross dresser. What should I do given I have not done anything to transistion. I wish I had a choice but in the end I may only have the 'choices' everyone else had found.
Alice
Quote from: Alice on August 09, 2007, 10:15:42 PM
Can someone point me to some information that tells me how I can live as a happy male?
Um, well I do not know of anything of the nature personally; I do not believe I really had that option; I could have contained as a male and been miserable but really once I figured out what was hurting so much ...
*shrug*I think the end result is that you will have to listen to yourself to find what path you should take; I really do not think which exact path matters all that much as long as it is the correct one for you. An be mindful that people relate to things differently; Any such 'how to live happily as a male' guide is unlikely to work when, such as my case, one isn't male.
I think the short form is hang on an go with the flow, just don't close your eyes...
*HUG*
Quote from: Alice on August 09, 2007, 10:15:42 PM
Can someone point me to some information that tells me how I can live as a happy male?
It seams my option are to live as a happy TG person (something I am trying), transistion or the other unthinkable option. No-one has told me how to be a happy male and I am affraid that I sometimes find it hard to live as a cross dresser. What should I do given I have not done anything to transistion. I wish I had a choice but in the end I may only have the 'choices' everyone else had found.
Alice
That's where gender counselors are supposed to help. Not to tell you what to do but to help you decide for yourself.
And always listen to that still, quiet voice within, which is your spiritual connection speaking truth.
Decisions come easier to some and harder to others. Frequent meditation should help.
Best wishes to all are our equally valid journies.
Robyn
I can only speak for myself. Goddess, that is sometimes hard enough to get right and be understood. I cannot imagine trying to speak for anyone else and getting that right!
In the Dao de Xing there is a saying: QuoteEveryone speaks the truth; you must learn to hear the truth they are speaking.
In our arguments it seems like sometimes we forget to listen for the truth being spoken by the other writers.
Yes, I have lost a 17 year relationship. I have lost my family, except for my sons, who like their other mom (me) better, they say, than they ever liked their dad. I lost a job.
I probably could have soldiered on. Would I have committed suicide? How would I know. When I made the decision, the first one, to pursue transition I was not on the verge of killing myself.
I got to that place, once, after I had been on hrt for a year. The medical doctor and the psych both thought that may well have been due to T having a lessening effect on my depression when I had male levels. When the T was down to low female levels, the prophylactic was gone as well. I went through my only clinical depression. But, statistically speaking, clinical depressions are more frequently visited on women.
Has transition made me happy? No. Has life made me happy? No. But, I am content.
I struggle with things other women who are raising their children alone struggle with: money, jobs, school, food, car repairs, etc.
On T boards I have been on in the past I have read many women write about how miserable their lives are, but also that they did not have a choice except to transition or die. None of us have choice in dying, only the choice of when.
It seems to me that what some of us may do is to disregard the fact that we also have a choice to live. A life like any other man or woman: full of uncomfortable events and full of events that take my breath away with the beauty and poignancy of their occurrence.
My happiness, or contentment, cannot, imo, rely on the good graces of others. Nor can it rely on the possibility that life might be around simply so that all the things I imagine that would make my life perfect will flow to me.
What I do know, is that I lead a life like any other woman might lead hers. With that I am content. Often I am happy.
My life and my experiences cannot possibly speak good or ill of the lives of any one else. Their lives I allow to do that.
Transition? For me, yes! The best choice I could have possibly made. I can be Nichole and live with myself comfortably. I could not do that being him.
So, for me transitioning was the absolute right choice. If someone else were to ask me to give her or him advice about transitioning, I could only tell them to do what I have done: Follow the deepest voice of your own heart. And make sure that you listen to it.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
I didn't say anything at all about my transition. You are assuming things that were not said. My transition was successful beyond my wildest dreams but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
I don't think any of the choice people have listed living as a happy male (for mtfs) as an option.
Thus which option should we pick? Being miserable and on too many psych meds or suicide? Seems like by your logic all transpeople who view e.g. suicide as an option should rather pick it than transition to be happy.
Nichole W. that was a beautiful post.
Quote from: taru on August 10, 2007, 01:12:21 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
I didn't say anything at all about my transition. You are assuming things that were not said. My transition was successful beyond my wildest dreams but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
I don't think any of the choice people have listed living as a happy male (for mtfs) as an option.
Thus which option should we pick? Being miserable and on too many psych meds or suicide? Seems like by your logic all transpeople who view e.g. suicide as an option should rather pick it than transition to be happy.
I know I sure as hell do not consider being a "happy male" a viable option. In fact, being happy as a male is something that is impossible for me to achieve. I'm just the kind of person that tries to strip all metaphorical illusions from my life. And allowing myself to give credence to the metaphor that one difficult and harsh option versus a truly horrific and untenable option is not a choice at all is not something I do.
Its perfectly fine for others to do so, if they wish. They can use it to show how extreme the consequences are of not transitioning are represented to them. But for me, I don't do that with metaphors. I straight out tell people what my options are, Brave the difficulties of transition, be hopped up on as much anti depressants and mood adjusters as possible or kill myself. Why create a metaphor to show the harshness of the choice I have to make when I can let the options speak for themselves?
It just seems so very unnecessary to me.
And for those that think I shouldn't transition? You're way off on my mental state. My calling this a choice is not because I think I have lots of great, wonderful and viable options. Its because I don't believe in using metaphors to get a point across.
So if someone calls it a choice, their need to transition is still just as valid as yours.
If someone doesn't call it a choice, they are not invalidating the sacrifices and the responsibility you took in making your choice to transition and live.
Plain and simple. Why is it so easy for people to offend each other over things that really aren't offensive?
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 09, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
I didn't say anything at all about my transition. You are assuming things that were not said. My transition was successful beyond my wildest dreams but I never thought I had a choice. For those who think this a choice, choose wisely and err on the side of NOT transitioning and wait until you reach the point of knowing it is NOT a choice.
This would lead a lot of people who later transition to regret not starting earlier. Particularly younger TSs where getting on HRT/blockers early can make a big difference to their passability (and their looks).
Choice/no-choice is a mindset. For me it would ALWAYS be a choice, even if I delayed transition till a point in the future where my options narrowed to immediate transition or immediate suicide, that would still be a choice according to my mindset. My choice to transition was based on knowing my options would narrow to those two paths at some point in the future so I may as well start now rather than delaying and forever regretting it.
How many people on this forum wish they had seen the inevitability of their situation earlier? I'm guessing a LOT.
QuoteThus which option should we pick?
Why would you let others decide what course you should seek?
QuoteAnd for those that think I shouldn't transition? You're way off on my mental state.
Who is it that thinks you shouldn't transition?
QuotePlain and simple. Why is it so easy for people to offend each other over things that really aren't offensive?
No one is offending you. I know it is not possible for anyone to offend me as I do not allow anyone the power to offend me anymore than I let a piece of chocolate cake force itself down my throat. You are offending yourself. It is not any more possible for someone to offend another than it is for a piece of cake to force its consumption upon you.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 08:50:04 AM
No one is offending you. I know it is not possible for anyone to offend me as I do not allow anyone the power to offend me anymore than I let a piece of chocolate cake force itself down my throat. You are offending yourself. It is not any more possible for someone to offend another than it is for a piece of cake to force its consumption upon you.
I don't know about that. I get attacked by chocolate all the time. I find cold beer to be quite predatory on hot, sunny days too.
Dennis
Many of our detractors believe that being transgender/transsexual, along with GLB, is a choice as opposed to that we're born as who we are. Also, if it were a choice, under current system it's harder to get insurance to pay for treatment. I'm guessing these could be among the reasons why those who believe that being TS isn't a choice, trying to counter these kinds of attitudes. I personally still believe it's a choice. Not one to take lightly, for some it is indeed life or death, but still a choice.
Zythyra
Hmm, that makes sense Zythyra. I think much of that attitude may stem from people's misconception that transitioning/SRS is what defines us as transsexuals, rather than the fact that we strongly identify as a different gender different than our birth sex (which means we've always been TS) being the reason for transitioning/SRS. How do I know that's how they think? That's what I was taught growing up and also caused was a major factor in me not addressing the way I felt.
If people are seeing transitioning as being synonymous with being TS, then the line of thought that we choose to transition can easily be translated into us choosing to be TS. Every single transsexual knows the truth that being TS is not a choice and perhaps by saying that transitioning is not a choice, it is merely an indirect means of conveying the truth (i.e. Transitioning is not a choice, so therefore being TS is not a choice). That makes sense to me at least.
BTW, I started this thread more to analyze why some see it as a choice and why some don't. I think we may be making progress. :)
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 08:50:04 AM
QuoteThus which option should we pick?
Why would you let others decide what course you should seek?
I think that was more a rant on people telling them that they shouldn't transition.
Quote
QuoteAnd for those that think I shouldn't transition? You're way off on my mental state.
Who is it that thinks you shouldn't transition?
There are a few who have implied it. And since I consider transitioning a choice (even if its a choice between transition or suicide) and numerous people have stated that if one considers transitioning a choice one ought to not transition, I'd say its safe and logical to conclude they think I ought to not transition, eh?
Quote
QuotePlain and simple. Why is it so easy for people to offend each other over things that really aren't offensive?
No one is offending you.
You're putting words in my mouth Melissa. I never said
I was offended. It just seemed to me that people were getting offended by non-offensive things.
Quote
I know it is not possible for anyone to offend me as I do not allow anyone the power to offend me anymore than I let a piece of chocolate cake force itself down my throat.
You've obviously never been attacked by chocolate cake.
Quote
You are offending yourself.
Oh am I? I must be truly and epically talented if I can do that when I'm not offended in the least. Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about what people are thinking.
Quote from: Melissa on August 10, 2007, 01:29:34 PM
If people are seeing transitioning as being synonymous with being TS, then the line of thought that we choose to transition can easily be translated into us choosing to be TS. Every single transsexual knows the truth that being TS is not a choice and perhaps by saying that transitioning is not a choice, it is merely an indirect means of conveying the truth (i.e. Transitioning is not a choice, so therefore being TS is not a choice). That makes sense to me at least.
BTW, I started this thread more to analyze why some see it as a choice and why some don't. I think we may be making progress. :)
Yes Melissa, that makes sense to me too. Thanks for starting the thread. I get tired of seeing transpeople fight amongst ourselves, but also sincerely believe it's a good thing if we all engage in honest dialog. I think we're making progress as well, I'm gaining a better understanding of how others with different viewpoints think and feel. And if we can all understand each other, we have half a chance of gaining acceptance in the world for who we are.
QuoteYou've obviously never been attacked by chocolate cake.
Sophia, chocolate is indeed insidious and will stop at nothing to infiltrate :D
Zythyra
i remember being attacked by a victoria sponge once.... i still have the nightmares.... *shudders*
R :police:
Quote from: y2gender on August 10, 2007, 02:59:45 PM
Quote from: SophiaYou've obviously never been attacked by chocolate cake.
Sophia, chocolate is indeed insidious and will stop at nothing to infiltrate :D
M&M's are worse. Little things come in swarms.
Quote from: Rachael on August 10, 2007, 03:17:30 PM
i remember being attacked by a victoria sponge once.... i still have the nightmares.... *shudders*
Pound cake can do a number on you. A friend of mine lost his father in Vietnam to pound cake. Little thing got on the helicopter and stuffed itself into the poor man's throat. Didn't stand a chance.
:'(
QuoteCan someone point me to some information that tells me how I can live as a happy male?
It seams my option are to live as a happy TG person (something I am trying), transistion or the other unthinkable option. No-one has told me how to be a happy male and I am affraid that I sometimes find it hard to live as a cross dresser. What should I do given I have not done anything to transistion. I wish I had a choice but in the end I may only have the 'choices' everyone else had found.
Alice,
I sure don't know how to do the happy as a male thing. 14 years after first transitioning, I still haven't found an answer. I think that I know who I am, and have some ideas of what I could do to be happy, but given the constraints of society, these aren't easily done. Hope you can find your path.
Zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on August 10, 2007, 12:12:19 PM
Many of our detractors believe that being transgender/transsexual, along with GLB, is a choice as opposed to that we're born as who we are. Also, if it were a choice, under current system it's harder to get insurance to pay for treatment. I'm guessing these could be among the reasons why those who believe that being TS isn't a choice, trying to counter these kinds of attitudes. I personally still believe it's a choice. Not one to take lightly, for some it is indeed life or death, but still a choice.
Zythyra
Again, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically. We have been hashing this over for weeks on three or four different threads and the same semantics keep being repeated.
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.
QuoteAgain, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically.
I'm curious if any other people on the no choice fence are actually speaking metaphorically as opposed to literally about this issue. Many have expressed their opinions quite adamantly.
Zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on August 10, 2007, 11:18:40 PM
QuoteAgain, those who say they don't have a choice are speaking metaphorically.
I'm curious if any other people on the no choice fence are actually speaking metaphorically as opposed to literally about this issue. Many have expressed their opinions quite adamantly.
Zythyra
You don't have to be curious because, literally speaking, of course, there is a choice. (she says, as the waters continue to be muddied)
Language is not precise and the longer this goes on without understanding the difference between literal and figurative, the more the message is lost. I am afraid at this point we have become cats chsing our tails. This medium has always been a poor one to discuss complex issues. If we all met and talked face to face we could come to a consensus in minutes probably.
QuoteYou don't have to be curious because, literally speaking, of course, there is a choice. (she says, as the waters continue to be muddied)
Language is not precise and the longer this goes on without understanding the difference between literal and figurative, the more the message is lost. I am afraid at this point we have become cats chsing our tails. This medium has always been a poor one to discuss complex issues. If we all met and talked face to face we could come to a consensus in minutes probably.
Melissa,
I'm a musician, composer and songwriter, words and their meaning, both literal and metaphorical, are an important part of my work. I strive for communicating and expressing my thoughts in a clear manner, knowing full well that I often fail miserably.
No doubt we'd all understand each other much quicker talking in a room, however we're here on this imperfect internet medium, and dialog is happening. I personally believe we're getting somewhere, I'm understanding opposing points of view better than I had at the beginning of this conversation. I'd even say that there are some people on this forum whose posts I use to dread, who I've recently grown to like ;D
Zythyra
Certainly with that kind of literacy, you can see my point that the POV that "no choice" is figurative even if those who promote that view aren't aware of it.
Way, way back when, I made the statement that pushing this as a choice is political suicide and that point has been lost.
How about this? Transition is a choice; the overwhelming urge/need to transition isn't.
Quote from: Melissa on August 12, 2007, 06:18:13 PM
How about this? Transition is a choice; the overwhelming urge/need to transition isn't.
How about this?
2 + 2 = 4
(or)
2 + 2 = 5
;)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.
What kind of options would those be? Could one with gender dysphoria "choose" to live as an effeminate man and be perceived by others as gay? I've heard lots of people mention "other viable options," but have yet to find out how one who hates living as a man could choose any other path than to transition - be it a TG transition or a TS transition.
~Fae
Quote from: Fae on August 13, 2007, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.
What kind of options would those be? Could one with gender dysphoria "choose" to live as an effeminate man and be perceived by others as gay? I've heard lots of people mention "other viable options," but have yet to find out how one who hates living as a man could choose any other path than to transition - be it a TG transition or a TS transition.
~Fae
How would I know? Ask the people who have the choices they have to make what the alterenatives are.
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 16, 2007, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: Fae on August 13, 2007, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on August 10, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
And again, for those who really think they have other viable options, choose them, don't transition.
What kind of options would those be?
How would I know?
Now this is, in a nutshell, what I really don't get in the 'no choice' viewpoint: you make it sound like transition was so awful that given the option, one should instead choose anything you can't think of. I'm sorry, but that does not sound right, but then I might be misreading it (yet again).
Transition is certainly something that involves hard work, serious discomfort, and eventually medical procedures that cannot be reversed. It should not be attempted lightly. Nevertheless, the criteria are ultimately related to one's quality of life: if the life after transition is likely to be better than it would be without transition,
and if one is pretty much certain of not having second thoughts afterwards, then go for it. Even if it would be possible to figure out how to survive without transition. There's no need to be suicidal, just thoroughly realistic about the consequences of both transitioning and not doing so.
For me, the option I eventually ended up with was to lose faith in the binary gender system. Others are likely to continue seeing me as male, but that's ultimately their problem -- I'm doing what seems comfortable, whether it is fixing a bike or putting on nail polish. If it was just up to me I'd like to have SRS, but it's not an all-encompassing need and the social drawbacks are at the moment (and in the foreseeable future) sufficient to keep me from seeking medical treatment. In my case, a TG transition was never an option: it was either full TS or nothing, in either case with a pretty androgynous social role. I've chosen the latter, but it's also very easy to see how my personal history could have been different, with different results. The hardest part in figuring things out was understanding the emotional issues involved: analysing something that is very non-rational in nature was not an easy thing to do.
I guess it all depends in part on the intensity of one's GID, but also on one's position regarding the social gender system.
Nfr
Quote
How about this?
2 + 2 = 4
(or)
2 + 2 = 5
2+2=4 is a valid equation
2+2=5 is false and can't be solved
did i pass the test? ;)
Well, I recently figured out that this premise of "transition or die" or even "transition or be miserable" is actually something called a Hobson's Choice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choice), which is basically a choice between 2 undesirable options. So then it technically IS a choice (albeit a
special kind of choice); it's just not the same kind of choice which is commonly thought of when people hear the word "choice". So in this case, the word "choice" is actually a misnomer.
Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 05:59:22 AM
Quote
How about this?
2 + 2 = 4
(or)
2 + 2 = 5
2+2=4 is a valid equation
2+2=5 is false and can't be solved
did i pass the test? ;)
But if you apply logic, using "or", it can be simplified into "true OR false" and with logic rules, this would translate into "true". :) Sorry, that's the programmer in me, although I did take a philosophical logic course in college and did very well.