I am a thiest and it's hard for me personally to separate morality and good and evil from God, I think atheists are good people too, and I have absolutely no problem with them whatsoever.
There may have been several similar threads before, I apologize. I like to keep an open mind and would like to know where the concept of good and evil comes from. I am having difficulty seeing things differently, any insight would be greatly appreciated. Is there a scientific reason, is it human nature? And at some level do you think the universe doesn't care about right and wrong?
I believe the most important thing in life is to be a good person and beliefs don't really matter.
I'd actually argue that true morality is incompatible with any of the religions built upon a dualist (heaven and hell are probably most familiar to western eyes) afterlife philosophy. If somebody does the right thing because they anticipate posthumous reward, or avoids doing the wrong thing because they fear posthumous punishment, at no point is their decision ever based on actually doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing. Their judgment is about obedience which may or may not be socially constructive, but ultimately it can never, ever be about pure morality as long as their eyes are fixed firmly on punishment/reward from somebody real or imagined. It's also not exactly reassuring when the religious insist that the only thing keeping them from any number of crimes is their fear of mystical punishment. Many atheists try to do the right thing because we know this is the only shot we've all got and we tend to value it more highly based on the understanding that this is not a practice life. There have been some very spectacular exceptions, but most of them are better described as communist dictators.
Morality fairly certainly predates religion. It's varied a lot more than I'd like to admit over time, but there is a very consistent intent to treat your fellow human beings well. A lot of the shortcomings tend to involve who qualifies as "your fellow human beings." As a species we're very prone to tribalism any anything which exacerbates tribalism tends to dehumanize the other fellow and result in any number of atrocities. The original definition of "good" rhymes pretty well with "us" in much the same way that "evil" rhymes with "them." Sadly, we haven't really progressed as much on that axis as might have been desired. Still, our origins as a cooperative, tribal ape show in our hardwired responses. To that extent, it's certainly scientifically explicable. The fine points are really more in the realm of philosophy.
Quote from: Cin on July 04, 2016, 04:23:55 PM
Is there a scientific reason, is it human nature? And at some level do you think the universe doesn't care about right and wrong?
I would classify myself as more agnostic than atheist, but I very much view the world through the eyes of science. While I don't believe in anything supernatural, I won't definitively say that it doesn't exist and would be open if someone were able to actually prove something.
As far as morality goes, Humans are a social species. We benefit greatly from cooperation. All of the technology we take advantage of today is the culmination of thousands of years of cooperation...with the right about of competition to serve as extra motivation. We work together to solve problems. We pass our knowledge down to the next generation so that they may continue our work. Cooperating with others allows us to achieve fantastic things, things that may have once been considered impossible.
Individuals that radically depart from the spirit of cooperation, such as murderers or thieves, bring an element of chaos that is harmful to society as a whole. Too much chaos inhibits productivity. So the "bad" people are brought to "justice" in order to keep order and society chugging along.
All of that sounds kind of rosy and of course there's plenty of bad involved. Humans, like all animals, are inherently selfish. With the exception of children, our natural instinct is to always favor ourselves over others. But, cooperating with other Humans is often far more beneficial to ourselves than is breeding chaos. A lone Human being is a fragile creature. Billions of Human beings can redefine the definition of impossible.
As far as the universe goes, Human beings are an infinitely tiny speck of nothing on some remote planet in the middle of a vast expanse of blackness. The universe went about its business before Humans existed and will continue to carry on long after the Human species becomes extinct.
I think that religious people that are good, are good not because of their religion, but they are good despite their religion.
Quote from: Colleen M on July 04, 2016, 08:17:26 PM
I'd actually argue that true morality is incompatible with any of the religions built upon a dualist (heaven and hell are probably most familiar to western eyes) afterlife philosophy. If somebody does the right thing because they anticipate posthumous reward, or avoids doing the wrong thing because they fear posthumous punishment, at no point is their decision ever based on actually doing the right thing simply because it's the right thing. Their judgment is about obedience which may or may not be socially constructive, but ultimately it can never, ever be about pure morality as long as their eyes are fixed firmly on punishment/reward from somebody real or imagined. It's also not exactly reassuring when the religious insist that the only thing keeping them from any number of crimes is their fear of mystical punishment. Many atheists try to do the right thing because we know this is the only shot we've all got and we tend to value it more highly based on the understanding that this is not a practice life. There have been some very spectacular exceptions, but most of them are better described as communist dictators.
Morality fairly certainly predates religion. It's varied a lot more than I'd like to admit over time, but there is a very consistent intent to treat your fellow human beings well. A lot of the shortcomings tend to involve who qualifies as "your fellow human beings." As a species we're very prone to tribalism any anything which exacerbates tribalism tends to dehumanize the other fellow and result in any number of atrocities. The original definition of "good" rhymes pretty well with "us" in much the same way that "evil" rhymes with "them." Sadly, we haven't really progressed as much on that axis as might have been desired. Still, our origins as a cooperative, tribal ape show in our hardwired responses. To that extent, it's certainly scientifically explicable. The fine points are really more in the realm of philosophy.
Thank you colleen.
I suppose I associate good and evil more with God than religion but I get what you're saying.
The way you describe atheists way of life sounds perfect to me, but it makes human beings "not special" almost like there's no difference between human beings and other species, and that makes me feel strange cause it just makes it seem like it's all biology and evolution.
That's kind of a grim way of looking at things from my perspective, but I'm still perfectly fine.
I can't seem to find the right word to describe how I feel, but it makes human beings look "normal" which for some reason makes me feel disappointed or something like that.
Quote from: Semira on July 04, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
All of that sounds kind of rosy and of course there's plenty of bad involved. Humans, like all animals, are inherently selfish. With the exception of children, our natural instinct is to always favor ourselves over others. But, cooperating with other Humans is often far more beneficial to ourselves than is breeding chaos. A lone Human being is a fragile creature. Billions of Human beings can redefine the definition of impossible.
As far as the universe goes, Human beings are an infinitely tiny speck of nothing on some remote planet in the middle of a vast expanse of blackness. The universe went about its business before Humans existed and will continue to carry on long after the Human species becomes extinct.
Thank you for your reply, it was very eloquent.
The last part of your post I quoted because that's such a pragmatic way of looking at humanity, and by extension, yourself. Universe not caring bit gets to me fast, because part of me says why even bother if it's all for nothing.
I'm not saying you are wrong, I actually think it's pretty liberating to see the world that way and still find meaning and purpose in life.
It's either liberating or scary... Or both, I guess?
I almost forgot something important worth mentioning about morality and those of us who are godless. The U.S. Department of Justice has demographic data on its prisoners. Atheists are spectacularly under-represented in the American prison population, and the few of us behind bars are there generally for "white collar" or "victimless" crimes with virtually no atheists involved in violent crimes. It's not a perfect record we have there, but it is pretty darned good.
We weren't handed special on a silver platter and there's nothing about us which entitles us to special. But that's not grim, that's the wonderful part. Go out and be special on your own. Help somebody else be special. Earn it. Take pride in earning it. You're no more guilty from original sin than you are special from somebody else's achievements, but you can make your own fate and know that it's truly yours. If that's not special, what is?
Sure, the sun is going to consume the planet when it expires and this is probably the last solar system with this batch of stardust, and the bubble universe theory says existence as we know it could end at any time. Admittedly, there's a supermassive black hole at the center of our tiny little galaxy and there's a decent chance the entire universe will eventually suffer an energy death. You can look at those as grim reality. I'd rather look at those as challenges. What could be more special than solving those? And we'll never solve them by lying to ourselves about the universe or our place in it. But a century ago, they said the earth's population would exceed the planet's ability to feed. They were right, actually. So what did we do? We changed the rules and hydrogenated fertilizer, thus feeding the planet. We'll get past the next problems just as soon as we bust Einstein's speed limit and see what's out there. We are the alpha predators at the end of three million years of evolution. That's not what makes us special as a race; it's what gives us the chance to be special as individuals.
There are going to be some mis-steps, and we can all come up with a decent list of those. But at the end of the day we have a chance to try to be special as individuals purely on our own merit. Why would anybody want it any other way? It's not grim; it's perfect.
Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?
Do you feel strange that there is no superior being judging good and evil. Or even something like karma? If that's the case, then definition of good and bad becomes unclear?
I think telling right from wrong is just part of common sense that you learn over the years by interracting with others. It's not rocket science. Just think how you'd want to be treated and treat others the same way. I know that part's in the Bible as well but I don't think one needs religion to realize that.
Besides, human is a social species. We benefit if we get along with others of our kind and best way to get along with them is to treat them well.
Quote from: Cin on July 04, 2016, 11:33:34 PM
The way you describe atheists way of life sounds perfect to me, but it makes human beings "not special" almost like there's no difference between human beings and other species, and that makes me feel strange cause it just makes it seem like it's all biology and evolution.
The way I see it, humans are
not special. We are animals, primates, one of the big ape species. We have just evolved into this... mess we are today. Sure, we can talk and have all this nifty technology and whatnot but does it really count as being intelligent considering what we've done to this planet? I think not.
As you can see, I don't appreciate humans as a species at all. I suppose I'm a bit misanthropic.Quote from: Cin on July 05, 2016, 01:58:25 PM
Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?
There are future generations. We are at least trying to fix the mistakes we've done in order to make sure at least something of this world is preserved for the next generations. I'm sure our current efforts matter to them.
Quote from: Cin on July 04, 2016, 11:33:34 PM
how I feel, but it makes human beings look "normal" which for some reason makes me feel disappointed or something like that.
Pretty sure this right here is the root cause of all religion, people want to feel that they are special and "above" something else, be it other people or even just animals.
Lots of people really dont process the idea, that in the grand scheme of the universe they are fundamentally meaningless, very well.
Quote from: RedLila on July 05, 2016, 04:26:49 PM
Pretty sure this right here is the root cause of all religion, people want to feel that they are special and "above" something else, be it other people or even just animals.
Lots of people really dont process the idea, that in the grand scheme of the universe they are fundamentally meaningless, very well.
Aren't human beings the only creatures capable of believing in a higher power?
Humans also seem to care about the survival of other animals too, which I don't think I've seen in other animals
Quote from: Tossu-sama on July 05, 2016, 04:12:46 PM
I think telling right from wrong is just part of common sense that you learn over the years by interracting with others. It's not rocket science.
There are future generations. We are at least trying to fix the mistakes we've done in order to make sure at least something of this world is preserved for the next generations. I'm sure our current efforts matter to them.
Good points, I can't disagree with anything you're saying, but I think there must be more to good and evil than just good is advantageous and bad isn't. Id like to think so.
Quote from: Cin on July 05, 2016, 01:58:25 PM
Humanity seems to be going forward and evolving, but if there is no afterlife, that means your contributions don't really matter to anyone?
Do you feel strange that there is no superior being judging good and evil. Or even something like karma? If that's the case, then definition of good and bad becomes unclear?
With the understanding that several of us are tag-teaming you:
If an afterlife is required to validate this life, does that mean an after-afterlife is required to validate the afterlife? And which afterlife should we be preparing for? One with Odin and Valhalla before Ragnarok? Or do we need the coins to pay Charon? If we can't even reliably figure out which afterlife to prepare for, how can an unknowable afterlife be considered the yardstick for a life well lived? And what's wrong with a life well lived for its own sake? You're actually displaying one of the truly horrifying things afflicting people with religion here as it has made it harder for you to find value in your own existence for your own sake, which I find terrifying and frankly unforgivable (them, not you, so nothing personal ;)).
And I assure you that I find the idea of a superior being sitting in judgment to be rather odd, rather than the reverse. I have heard the case for any number of divine beings, and none of those cases are particularly compelling in terms of existence. As a general statement on moral standards, I find the polytheistic pantheons to at least have some deities who are more appealing than most of the monotheistic constructions, although obviously not universally. Without getting into specifics which are outside our scope here, or framing it as an authoritative statement on all monotheistic groups, I can say that I find the monotheistic deities I am familiar with to be lacking the moral credibility to judge me even if they existed. Several of them lack the moral authority to judge Stalin.
I'd also like to point out as far as morality being unclear without a divine reference, consider how unclear it can be made by a divine reference. The "eye for an eye"/"turn the other cheek" contradiction in one major religion springs to mind. I'm sure other disagreements just within any given single religious book can be produced as needed.
As another thought, Youtube is full of dogs nursing lion cubs or whatnot. Many social animals tend to be benevolent and cooperative as a default.
Ultimately, it's also worth asking if you're making decisions based on what you want and feel comfortable with, or on the reality we are faced with. At several points it sounds like the former, but I don't want to read too much into that.
As a non-atheist i find these discussions fascinating. "What is the basis for morality?" is an amazing and largely unanswerable question in my opinion. I really appreciate the atheists i know who ask these questions. One of the best answers i have heard that clicked with me is the societal consensus on a global and all inclusive basis. Sure you can take some societies and stand them up at a moment in time and say..."yeah that is immoral, I know it when i see it "but when taken as a mean measurement, you see a trend that is generally "moral" in a fairly consistent way on some fairly consistent things.
This idea also smacks the "depravity of man" folks fairly hard.
I wish i had taken more philosophy classes, cause i don't have a lot to offer on it but great discussion.
Quote from: RobynD on July 05, 2016, 08:35:38 PM
One of the best answers i have heard that clicked with me is the societal consensus on a global and all inclusive basis.
The "wisdom of the crowd" does a pretty good job guessing how many jelly beans are in the jar, so it's probably a reasonable place to start with morality. Particularly as it really is almost certainly the best we have to work with.
I don't feel like typing the many paragraphs I have to say on this issue, and others have already covered so much of it, so I will instead plug a show that has a lot to say on this issue. Look up The Atheist Experience, which has a lot of episodes recorded on Youtube. They get this question from their callers all the time and I feel they do a great job of explaining it most of the time.
Quote from: Colleen M on July 05, 2016, 07:30:16 PM
With the understanding that several of us are tag-teaming you:
If an afterlife is required to validate this life, does that mean an after-afterlife is required to validate the afterlife? And which afterlife should we be preparing for? One with Odin and Valhalla before Ragnarok? Or do we need the coins to pay Charon? If we can't even reliably figure out which afterlife to prepare for, how can an unknowable afterlife be considered the yardstick for a life well lived? And what's wrong with a life well lived for its own sake? You're actually displaying one of the truly horrifying things afflicting people with religion here as it has made it harder for you to find value in your own existence for your own sake, which I find terrifying and frankly unforgivable (them, not you, so nothing personal ;)).
And I assure you that I find the idea of a superior being sitting in judgment to be rather odd, rather than the reverse. I have heard the case for any number of divine beings, and none of those cases are particularly compelling in terms of existence. As a general statement on moral standards, I find the polytheistic pantheons to at least have some deities who are more appealing than most of the monotheistic constructions, although obviously not universally. Without getting into specifics which are outside our scope here, or framing it as an authoritative statement on all monotheistic groups, I can say that I find the monotheistic deities I am familiar with to be lacking the moral credibility to judge me even if they existed. Several of them lack the moral authority to judge Stalin.
I'd also like to point out as far as morality being unclear without a divine reference, consider how unclear it can be made by a divine reference. The "eye for an eye"/"turn the other cheek" contradiction in one major religion springs to mind. I'm sure other disagreements just within any given single religious book can be produced as needed.
As another thought, Youtube is full of dogs nursing lion cubs or whatnot. Many social animals tend to be benevolent and cooperative as a default.
Ultimately, it's also worth asking if you're making decisions based on what you want and feel comfortable with, or on the reality we are faced with. At several points it sounds like the former, but I don't want to read too much into that.
To be honest, I feel like I'm dealing with people who several times more knowledgeable than I.
I didn't think of there being so many versions of heaven, lol. It would be wrong to say my version is correct. I wasn't even thinking about other faiths until you pointed out, someone from a different faith could disagree with my version of heaven.
I've been conditioned one way, and it seems like a very brave way of looking at life. I can't speak for others, but what I hear from religion sounds wonderful. It's like every single human being that ever lived gets what's coming to them, no lives and dreams go in vain.
Do you study religion or faith as a hobby? Do you find it an interesting subject even as an outsider?
Personally, I can't say religion is really that interesting to me on its own merits. Now, I do follow religious movements the way I follow movements like fascism or mercantilism or any other -ism to note how they influenced people and nations over time. And I do recall a fair bit from when I discarded religion as that's not a decision to be made lightly, but I'm not making an effort to retain that knowledge as it's really quite useless. But I also love literature, and paying too much attention to specifics puts me in mind of the generally superior originals. I'll stack Utnapishtim against any of the copies just based on the loaves of bread being used as such a wonderful plot device.
I do try not to have a problem with honest questions, although a character flaw is that I often have trouble simply respecting several specific religions at all due to their excessive plagiarism.
And don't beat yourself up for forgetting alternative religions. You have no idea how many people present Pascal's Wager as their way of finding out that the answer to "What do you have to lose by worshiping my god?" is "I could annoy the other 4,199 gods by becoming an infidel, so what makes yours special?"
I agree that people are good not because of their religion and I don't think that fear is what keeps people on the straight and narrow.
but do you feel bad or powerless about all the bad things happening in the world? If there is no karma or judgement, then that means people can and are getting away with bad stuff and they never get punished..
Let me state my beliefs, I believe in karma and judgement. World seems fair even if justice isn't served in this lifetime.
Quote from: Cin on July 06, 2016, 04:42:14 PM
but do you feel bad or powerless about all the bad things happening in the world? If there is no karma or judgement, then that means people can and are getting away with bad stuff and they never get punished..
In regards to bad things happening around the world...something tragic is happening to somebody on Earth every second of every day. It is just a fact of life that we have to accept. If I chose to feel bad every time something bad happened somewhere in the world I would be miserable 100% of the time. This might sound callus, but unless something has a significant impact on my life and those I care about, I don't have the mental energy to spare to worry about it.
In regards to karma...to me the concepts of good and bad are just constructs of the Human mind. On Earth, areas of high atmospheric pressure causes air to flow towards areas of low atmospheric pressure. There is an actual physical imbalance in the atmosphere that the planet is constantly trying to correct. Concepts of good and bad aren't like that. They aren't actual things. If I do something bad, there isn't going to be some kind of energy void floating around me that is going to attract some force to fill that void.
I can understand the appeal of karma though and why people choose to believe in it. It is definitely satisfying to watch someone get what is coming to them! ;D
Doesn't sound callus at all semira, everyone feels the same way, too much stuff happening in the world.
I believe in karma from personal experience, it has affected me too, I got what I had coming..
I actually do have an objection to karma beyond having no evidence to back up the belief. Karma states that if something bad happens to someone, they had it coming and they deserve it. It has actually been used as justification in that sense many times as well. I think that's kind of terrible and I wouldn't abide by it even if it were true.
Only proof I can find is my experience and experience of several others. Would that at least count as evidence? If I don't seem to be getting what proof or evidence is, can someone explain it briefly?
Quote from: Cin on July 06, 2016, 10:00:08 PM
Only proof I can find is my experience and experience of several others. Would that at least count as evidence? If I don't seem to be getting what proof or evidence is, can someone explain it briefly?
If it's evidence enough for you, then that is up for you to decide and nobody else can tell you otherwise. Nobody else can see things through your eyes. The problem is that there is an objective world. Either something is true or it isn't. If you want to convince others of what that reality is, you do have to find a way to show them that evidence. If you don't care to do that and only your own beliefs matter to you, then there's no reason to have that discussion.
At least that's how I see it. I don't care to go around telling others what is or is not real, but I do care that what I believe is true is in fact true. If you think otherwise, then I don't mind too much, but I would definitely be interested in hearing your thoughts just in case I am wrong. I am absolutely not right about everything and I like learning. My previous post was just my way of communicating my thoughts on karma and why I personally don't like it.
I wish I could prove it by sharing my evidence, but it seems I only have personal experiences that I can only share with people.
I guess I am late to the party here, but I think about the basis for moartilty quite a bit. I do not consider myself an atheist per se, but I am a Buddhist, and Buddhism is a non-theistic religion.
The western religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are unique in considering morality to be based on obedience. That is one reason I am not a believer. I revolted when I heard the story of Abraham and how his claim to greatness was because he was all set to obey God's order to kill his son. I couldn't accept that as moral. I think there is nothing inherently moral about obedience.
But I understand that, for people who have that belief, it must be mystifying to encouter people whose morality is not based on obedience.
In Buddhism, morality is based on compassion. An action is moral if it reduces suffering; an action is immoral if it increases suffering. (And, I personally would add, an act is evil if it is intended to cause suffering.) That makes it situational: you have to consider the consequences of this particular act in this particular circumstance. You cannot just make lists of "thou shalt nots" that apply in all circumstances. Though Buddhism has its precepts (it is generally good to not kill), they cannot be absolute.
But, even though it is situational, morality is not a free-for-all. You can't just make it up as you go along. There is a standard: the reduction of suffering. It requires intelligence and discernment to apply it. In fact, the act of considering the consequences of one's actions is morailty in action.
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 17, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
The western religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are unique in considering morality to be based on obedience. That is one reason I am not a believer. I revolted when I heard the story of Abraham and how his claim to greatness was because he was all set to obey God's order to kill his son. I couldn't accept that as moral. I think there is nothing inherently moral about obedience.
I hear ya about the Abraham and Isaac story! I think Bob Dylan said it all in "Highway 61 Revisited":
Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"
Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on"
God say, "No, " Abe say, "What?"
God say, "You can do what you want, Abe, but
Next time you see me comin', you better run"
Well, Abe said, "Where do you want this killin' done?"
God said, "Out on Highway 61"
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 17, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
I think there is nothing inherently moral about obedience.
...But, even though it is situational, morality is not a free-for-all. You can't just make it up as you go along. There is a standard: the reduction of suffering. It requires intelligence and discernment to apply it. In fact, the act of considering the consequences of one's actions is morailty in action.
I fully agree with you and I guess then with Bhuddism, but I never turned to Buddhism for it seemed like still too many rules for me.
truth and reality or not that obvious, everything has to be questioned always, and yes in its context
I posted on this thread before then removed it. I don't know why I'm doing this right now :-\ :laugh:
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 17, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
I guess I am late to the party here, but I think about the basis for moartilty quite a bit. I do not consider myself an atheist per se, but I am a Buddhist, and Buddhism is a non-theistic religion.
The western religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are unique in considering morality to be based on obedience. That is one reason I am not a believer. I revolted when I heard the story of Abraham and how his claim to greatness was because he was all set to obey God's order to kill his son. I couldn't accept that as moral. I think there is nothing inherently moral about obedience.
But I understand that, for people who have that belief, it must be mystifying to encouter people whose morality is not based on obedience.
In Buddhism, morality is based on compassion. An action is moral if it reduces suffering; an action is immoral if it increases suffering. (And, I personally would add, an act is evil if it is intended to cause suffering.) That makes it situational: you have to consider the consequences of this particular act in this particular circumstance. You cannot just make lists of "thou shalt nots" that apply in all circumstances. Though Buddhism has its precepts (it is generally good to not kill), they cannot be absolute.
But, even though it is situational, morality is not a free-for-all. You can't just make it up as you go along. There is a standard: the reduction of suffering. It requires intelligence and discernment to apply it. In fact, the act of considering the consequences of one's actions is morailty in action.
It is mystifying to me, cause there doesn't seem to be anyone judging from above, and good and evil definitions seem unclear to me in Buddhism, I don't know if some sins are more severe than others.
Thanks for adding to this thread, Buddhism is fairly new to me, and I don't know if there are other non theistic religions out there.
I don't actually follow any religion strictly, mostly into God, I read some questionable things in holy books that seem kinda cruel or unfair.
I just sort of follow the Christian model for sinning and afterlife, not 100% either.
I've always thought that if fear of punishment after death shouldn't really matter in this life, and people can be good people without fearing afterlife, but I wonder of its a bad thing if there are people out there who live by the rules only because they fear judgement.
Quote from: Cin on July 18, 2016, 07:42:35 PM
It is mystifying to me, cause there doesn't seem to be anyone judging from above, and good and evil definitions seem unclear to me in Buddhism, I don't know if some sins are more severe than others.
Thanks for adding to this thread, Buddhism is fairly new to me, and I don't know if there are other non theistic religions out there.
I may have one other suggestion. It's not really a religion, since it tries to be anything but that, but it does have a sense of morality to it. Take a look at the secular humanism movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)
Quote from: Eevee on July 18, 2016, 07:59:38 PM
I may have one other suggestion. It's not really a religion, since it tries to be anything but that, but it does have a sense of morality to it. Take a look at the secular humanism movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism)
Thanks, that's an interesting read. I was shocked to hear it has so many followers, yet this is the first time I'm hearing about this.
This is a strange question, but how do you people find out about these things, it's amazing. I don't really learn about stuff like this unless it's in the news
Quote from: Cin on July 18, 2016, 08:19:32 PM
Thanks, that's an interesting read. I was shocked to hear it has so many followers, yet this is the first time I'm hearing about this.
This is a strange question, but how do you people find out about these things, it's amazing. I don't really learn about stuff like this unless it's in the news
I can't speak for anyone else, but I started learning more when I started questioning my beliefs. The more you go out to seek answers to those questions, the more you learn about the world around you. The biggest mistake I see most people make is accepting the first answer they are given without really looking into it. Mimic children and keep asking "why" to find out more.
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 17, 2016, 07:29:01 PM
The western religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are unique in considering morality to be based on obedience. That is one reason I am not a believer. I revolted when I heard the story of Abraham and how his claim to greatness was because he was all set to obey God's order to kill his son. I couldn't accept that as moral. I think there is nothing inherently moral about obedience.
This is not an isolated incident in those sects, which really do simply replace morality with obedience. I've always believed their bible makes more (admittedly still not much) sense once you realize that Satan is an antihero and Jehovah is the villain. There are those who have done the math, and it seems Satan killed about 10 people--mostly involving Job--while Jehovah killed 2.5 million, give or take.
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
Do atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
To me books don't make that much sense, at least some parts of it.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
I actually understand the world more now. Belief usually means plugging God into all the gaps of human knowledge. The problem is that humans have learned so much since religious texts were first written. As our collective knowledge has grown, we've noticed that God doesn't really fit in all the gaps that we've stuck him in. Looking back into those gaps has renewed a sense of awe at the universe that was previously restricted for many people. The more we look, the more we learn. I personally think that is amazing.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Do atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
Not necessarily. Every atheist is different. All that is required is a lack of belief. It's usually because there's just not enough evidence to actually convince us. Now personally, I don't think the books make a lot of sense. I also don't think they describe morality very well in any of the characters, especially God. In fact, morality seems to be replaced with blind obedience to a sociopath.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
To me books don't make that much sense, at least some parts of it.
There might be a reason for that. The more you read into them, the less sense it all makes. In fact, actually studying the bible is what turned a lot of ex-Christians into atheists. That's exactly how it happened for me.
If you try to see the world as it is and not as you would like it to be then it seems chaotic where it is chaotic and orderly where it is orderly. Whether or not there is a God doesn't change that.
I don't think that most people really believe in God either. Rather they believe in the idea of God. An idea they read in a book, or that someone else told them about. If God is real can he then be limited to any single book?
I think people that are atheist come to that position for a variety of reasons. For some it is through their reason. For others it is because of religion. The second is probably especially true with Christianity with its multitude of contradictory sects each claiming to have received the unique truth revealed to them by God himself. For still others it is the Bible. For many, maybe most, the Bible is God's mind so that a thinking person either has to reject reality as it is, reject that there is a God, or come to a new understanding of what the book represents.
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Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
Most gods are arbitrary meddlers at best. For example, the entire Greek pantheon is basically a giant soap opera which occasionally leaves mortals as collateral damage. Most derivatives of Aten (especially the Abrahamic tradition) are simply psychopathic jerks. I'd argue the world makes much more sense when you remove superstition from it and begin to explain why things actually happen rather than relying on primitive animism. How many peasants have died young from disease throughout history, leaving grieving, bewildered (and starving) families? Those were written off for centuries as "god's will" or "karma" or whatnot. Remove the cop-out supernatural "explanation" from the equation, and you can begin to address the actual disease process. If you go to the hospital today and get a diagnosis of congestive heart failure, the good news is that it's not the sheer random chaos of "being struck down by god" but now it's explicable. And because it's explicable, it might even be fixable to some extent. Same thing with lightning strikes, or shipwrecks, or wars, or really anything. This is not only making things seem
less random and arbitrary, over time it makes life absolutely better when you cast off the infamous "goddidit" crutch for every event.
And if there really are no gods, as certainly seems to be the case, the real question is not what we want to be true, but: "How does lying to ourselves about it really help?" Really, how scary the world is with or without gods pales to insignificance next to the truth of whether or not there are some. Reducing the question to one of whether or not we have the courage to grow up as a species and let go of our imaginary friends is simply irrelevant when pondering whether or not the imaginary friends are real in the first place. Reality doesn't even have the capacity to care whether or not we like it, and the quicker we figure that out the more we're going to be able to take our own steps to make sure we do like the universe we're in.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AMDo atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
You'd need a grand total of three atheists to give you three different answers to this question. You might get four in that group. Personally, I do agree with the assertion that gods are a phase a species goes through when it's smart enough to ask questions about the universe but not smart enough to answer them. Religion, taken as a whole, is unquestionably evil, although polytheistic religions clearly much less so than the monotheistic cults. The books are a mixed bag. The Abrahamic books are outright abominations which set the tone for some utterly despicable faiths, while the more contemplative Eastern philosophies manage to generally not be actively evil, at least.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AMTo me books don't make that much sense, at least some parts of it.
Most of the books are so derivative it's appalling. The problem is that so many of the books were not only written by committee, but plagiarized by committee. You get everybody's favorite parts of older stories from differing mythologies, and it is unsurprisingly a mess. Literary criticism is unkind to the vast majority of religious texts.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
I call that random chaos evolution. If you take a closer look at it, there's really nothing random about it. Everything happens for a reason, it just may be hard to see.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Do atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
My main problem is with religion, more specifically organized religion. It's just another way for a small group of people to control the masses and it's almost always based on fear (if you don't believe, you go to hell etc). The books are just an extent of this control, just like a rule book.
Religions have been used as the reason to start wars, treat minorities like s*it and to keep basic rights from other people simply because they are the way they are. Sure, if there were no religions to begin with, I bet the same things would happen due to some different thing. However, in this world that's not the case, it's religion.
I don't think I could even have a problem with some deity I don't even believe exists.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
Chaotic? Yes. Random? Not really: everything happens due to causes and conditions. It may be hard sometimes to discern what the causes are, but they are always there.
QuoteDo atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
I can't speak for (other) atheists. For myself, I am not able to believe in a creator god in general. Even if I did, I don't think I could accept the God described in the Bible.
The books are interesting quasi-historical, quasi-mythological texts, but don't seem particularly relevant to me.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Doesn't the world seem chaotic and random if there's no God?
unless one is blind, or their filters are so strong (religion), the world IS chaotic, whether there is any god or not, and has been since before Homo Sapiens, since before Neandertal, since before apes. Well obviously, life on Earth was there a log time before Homo Erectus.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Do atheists have a problem with God OR religion or the books mainly?
I personnaly have a problem with religions, dogma, proselytism, rules, the way the books are interpreted and the way they were forged to exclude what (the texts) didn't fit, and other things invented by religion like purgatory...
I spent most of my life not as an atheist, believing in some sort of universal mind or vibration, searched, read stuff, always wondering, maybe... Then I studied autism and read scientific books that gave me details about the evolution of the human brain that I had not before realized explaining clearly there could be no god that created the world, or then if there is, it's working quite chaotically, for how to explain the brain and body evolved that way, like the vagus nerve that's outside of the spine which doesn't make any logical sense, but it did make sense when we were fishes and that our eyes were on the side (they migrated to the front slowly, and our brain had to adapt little by little to that), and there was no need for the ancestor of the vagus nerve to be inside the spine then, like the other nerves... Nature doesn't go back, it adapts. The world looks even less like anything organized to me since I understood that.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
To me books don't make that much sense, at least some parts of it.
It's fiction, totally invented by humans, based on earlier tales, the Mesopotamians... It's a nice read, but what about the apocryphe books that were rejected as early as 300 After J.C.? They are a good read also. But it's fiction, tales... I heard the Coran is mainly a guide to read the older writings, but I didn't read that one.
Thank you for your replies.
I'm just having a hard time accepting that world is chaotic, it seems like it just didn't fall into place. Strangely I can sort of see chaos everywhere else but earth. Evolution is a strange concept, to me, it feels like evolution must be intelligent to change us to what we are now. I'm trying to remove God from this equation, and what I can't see is evolution not happening without some intelligent force.
Anyway, I have a hard time with religious books, I have to take other people's word for it, some say the bad stuff I hear are just misinterpretations and quotes taken out of context.
That's why I stopped bothering. It's a just book anyway, there are some good stories in it, but I don't see it as absolute truth.
Is there a religion that states what God was doing before life was created on earth? I realize now that religions I know are kind of Earth centric and human centric.
Lots of religions talk about what happened before life on Earth. The Greco-Roman myths start with Titans before the gods, then eventually get around to life as we know it. The Norse legends IIRC start with Asgard before getting to Midgard. That's just off the top of my head, anyway.
I don't recall a mythos which has our sun as the third one from our bit of stardust, though.
Evolution makes pretty good sense too after you understand the processes and the immense time scales involved. I have never heard an argument against it that was very good.
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Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 05:01:00 PM
I'm just having a hard time accepting that world is chaotic, it seems like it just didn't fall into place. Strangely I can sort of see chaos everywhere else but earth. Evolution is a strange concept, to me, it feels like evolution must be intelligent to change us to what we are now. I'm trying to remove God from this equation, and what I can't see is evolution not happening without some intelligent force.
I see exactly what you mean, I felt pretty much like that all my life, but since I never really was someone who is theist, I came to think maybe we are experiments from other galaxies playing with genetics, like we'd be the result of a science fair contest, something... at least something, otherwise it just became a big blur in my mind. There had to be something.
well no, I found out that chaos brings the new, brings evolution. If everyone followed the rules religiously, there would never be anything new. So what creates? Chaos. Yes :P
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 05:01:00 PM
Thank you for your replies.
I'm trying to remove God from this equation,
I tried that too and it didn't work. I even read many books written by leading atheists and I know their arguments inside and out. And many of their arguments are valid and very good too. Most were of things I had already been considering.
What I noticed though is that the vast majority of the arguments aren't against God per say but against the idea of God in the Bible and the Quran.
You cannot quantify or define God. To me it simply a spiritual reality you feel or not. It does not depend on a book although books can be useful. They would say I suffer from "religious hysteria." Maybe they're right. But I don't think so.
For evolution in a nutshell, look at the peppered moth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
Long story short, the moth was mostly white and the occasional genetic freak black moths were eaten by predators before they could reproduce. Then the industrial revolution coated England with soot and altered the environment. In those conditions, the white moths stood out and were eaten by predators, while the genetic freak black moths prospered and multiplied. So now the peppered moth was black and the white moths were the mutant freaks. They've now cleaned up the countryside a bit and the white moth is making something of a comeback.
We observed a specific instance of evolution in the wild and then replicated it in the lab (several times, with varying degrees of professionalism). That's fairly definitive.
Quote from: Deborah on July 21, 2016, 08:29:33 PM
I tried that too and it didn't work. I even read many books written by leading atheists and I know their arguments inside and out. And many of their arguments are valid and very good too. Most were of things I had already been considering.
What I noticed though is that the vast majority of the arguments aren't against God per say but against the idea of God in the Bible and the Quran.
You cannot quantify or define God. To me it simply a spiritual reality you feel or not. It does not depend on a book although books can be useful. They would say I suffer from "religious hysteria." Maybe they're right. But I don't think so.
The Abrahamic deity is just low-hanging fruit. He's familiar to the western world, we're quite certain he's derivative plagiarized fiction, we know he's a bad guy, and we know he's been used as the excuse for a staggering amount of evil by a variety of churches. That's a pretty good explanation for why the poor dumb schmuck is just destined to be Public Enemy Number One.
Still, there's not really any need for divine intervention in any field of science. Even cosmology and biogenesis may not know everything, but there's not really enough room left in what they don't know for anything deserving to be called a god. At this point Occam's Razor argues against divine beings as they're really just overcomplicating otherwise elegant explanations. Admittedly that's not definitive, but we're simply running out of places for "the god of holes" to hide.
I'd also point out that positively arguing against any divine being anywhere any time is a fool's errand and you're not going to see the brightest even attempt to prove a negative. That's simply too amorphous a target to even pretend you're not punching water. I may not be able to prove there is no god, but I also can't conclusively prove that there is
not a teakettle orbiting Mars. Still, why would anybody ever expect me to prove there isn't a teakettle orbiting Mars without some minimal reason to believe there at least
might be one up there? The same standard applies with gods, as the Invisible Pink Unicorn satirizes. Properly, the burden of proof in a logical argument rests with the positive assertion and I've heard of very few theists even attempt to pick that up. None have ever actually even gotten close to succeeding. If theists can't make a compelling argument in the first place, how can atheists be expected to refute what doesn't exist?
Still, I'm reminded of the atheist joke to the effect that, "I prefer to believe that we are both atheists, I simply believe in one fewer god than you do." If you don't believe Loviatar exists, or Dagda, or Quetzlcouatl, or Aten, or Crom, or any of a few thousand other examples, what makes the one you do believe in different? There's a reason the "Obviously Zeus is a myth but Jehovah is real" view is compared to "Obviously Batman and Superman are comic book characters but I have a personal relationship with Spiderman."
Quote from: Colleen M on July 21, 2016, 08:53:54 PM
For evolution in a nutshell, look at the peppered moth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
Long story short, the moth was mostly white and the occasional genetic freak black moths were eaten by predators before they could reproduce. Then the industrial revolution coated England with soot and altered the environment. In those conditions, the white moths stood out and were eaten by predators, while the genetic freak black moths prospered and multiplied. So now the peppered moth was black and the white moths were the mutant freaks. They've now cleaned up the countryside a bit and the white moth is making something of a comeback.
We observed a specific instance of evolution in the wild and then replicated it in the lab (several times, with varying degrees of professionalism). That's fairly definitive.
Interesting, but now I'm confused cause it seems white moths went extinct, so it's extinction or evolution?
My understanding is that evolution is some kind of external entity acting on biological creatures, and changing them in appropriate ways.
I know things cannot be disproven, but I've always thought there's a difference between unicorns and God, because so many religions have God of some kind In their books, which makes it more credible.
Is it safe to say we cannot see evolution actually happening in real time or is there some animal that evolves fast that has been observed?
I have heard that science has incomplete fossils, like a head or a tail, and they imagine the rest of the creature, isn't that kinda like faith? Sorry, don't mean to sound anti science.
I have a better understanding of morality now. It's all about society, we like living together since we're social, and killing and stealing was thought to be detrimental to society, and it kinda started from there. I guess early man started punishing people who committed crimes and it just became good and bad as we know it.
So that pretty much wraps up morality then. If you want to know the depths of evolution, we might be able to add some insight, but I doubt any of us are experts. What really helps there is delving into some deeper research. Just like morality, it doesn't work if you just fill in the blanks with something without evidence. Here's a great website that goes over it:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html)
Also, you asked about any evolution that we have actually observed. We have actually set up a speciation event with fruit flies in a lab.
Evolution includes extinctions. White moths still happen, but the species is now black. If white moths never happened and were truly extinct at this point, we still have a species of black moths which appeared due to a change in environment. But consider neanderthals, Australopithecus, and so forth. They used to walk the earth, they don't anymore because Homo Sapiens Sapiens (that's us) was better able to survive and prosper. Admittedly, neanderthals appear to have done some cross-breeding with Europeans before disappearing. One species going extinct and another taking its place in a changing ecosystem happens a lot in evolution. The most vivid is the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event. Something like 75% of all animal species alive before perished during the event, but the 25% remaining diversified and flourished. No tetrapod over 25kg made it.
In non-biological terms, did you know that Studebaker was the only American carriage manufacturer to survive the transition to automobiles? One kind of business disappeared when the market changed, because another kind of business was better able to please customer demand in the new environment. The only survivor changed and became unrecognizable in the process, but it was still Studebaker. It's not entirely the same as animals, but it's broadly very similar kinds of forces at work. Although we have to be careful with "social Darwinism" as it's led to some very ugly (Auschwitz, for example) places. Please treat it as only a broad analogy intended to illustrate rather than a pure translation.
And (Ken Ham's Ark aside) unicorns generally aren't the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn specifically. "We know that she is invisible because we can't see her, and we have faith that she is pink." And perhaps most importantly--this is the reason she was invented--she can't actually be disproven any more than Allah, Jehovah, etc. She's a satirical exercise purely to put the shoe on the other foot and demonstrate how ridiculous it is when theists shift the burden of proof and demand atheists prove an imaginary being doesn't exist rather than being able to make a solid argument themselves.
Quote from: Cin on July 21, 2016, 11:58:22 PM
Interesting, but now I'm confused cause it seems white moths went extinct, so it's extinction or evolution?
Evolution is a loaded word. It describes the outcome, not the process. The process is natural selection, which is the survival of those individuals best able to survive. And, yes, extinction (i.e. failure to survive) is one of the main mechanisms of natural selection.
Thanks again for all the replies.
I don't meet atheists regularly, and I kinda ignored science in school and I'm giving it another try. I always thought evolution was true though, but man Is unique.
If I didn't have God, I would have a hole or a feeling of emptiness. I have always had this question in my mind, and that is if being atheist, makes you feel lonely?
From your point of view, life is just the sum of its parts. I.e, we developed morality cause we started differentiating what's beneficial to us as a species and what is not. Nothing more, nothing less.
.
I'm going to admit I still think worrying about loneliness is irrelevant. It's like worrying whether being sober will make you unhappy, when the real question is what do you have to do to be a healthy responsible adult.
That said, why on Earth would being an atheist make anybody lonely? We aren't counting on some mystical being to bail us out at the end, which is why atheists (generally, there are exceptions) tend to worry more about what we can do to make this life more pleasant rather than muddling through and expecting the next time around will be better. We appreciate life on a level that theists will never grasp because we commit to it wholeheartedly with no reservations and nothing held back for the next level. Our friends and lovers are the only ones we'll ever have and we appreciate them all the more for it. We have true companionship and need neither gods nor gigolos, holding their inauthentic company to be of equal value, and for the same reason.
And don't sell short the sheer joy of life without gods. Theists see the human body and imagine it's a perfect work of divine art; we see a work in progress and imagine how we can make it work better and longer. We can both look at a rainbow and see beauty, but there are more suns in the sky than there are grains of sand on the Earth, most of them with several planets. For a theist, the rest of the universe is mere filler as our own planet is by definition the only special one. An atheist sees so much more in those billions and billions of unique stars with each one special in its own right. For example, we see planets which rain diamonds just in our own solar system and can only imagine what kind of marvels await throughout the universe. We are on a spectacular life-altering journey of wonder and discovery, and while there are many things we don't yet understand, the only thing we will never comprehend is why theists not only don't want to come with us, but often want to hold us back.
Similarly, morality is a concrete effort to improve the human condition on this planet. The Dark Ages certainly suggest that many theists at one time saw little nobility in attempting to better people's living conditions, but I'd hoped The Enlightenment brought at least a few around to our point of view. For an atheist, morality really is its own reward in a better social environment. I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that a fanciful posthumous reward is even equal to that, let alone better somehow.
I say loneliness, cause hope, prayer, God, these things play a significant role, so if you took that away from me, I would have a giant void in my being.
What is hope to an atheist? When I hope something goes my way, I have God in mind.
As for space, I know it's amazing but we have so much to discover but we're never going to live long enough to know everything, so unless our conscience lives on, it just comes to an abrupt end.
I guess problem lies in me because who knows if things do come to an abrupt end.
I believe in both kind of modalities really, being a good person so that everyone can benefit from each other, also heaven and stuff cause it seems kinda fair...
But I'm looking at my own version of heaven, some say I'm already a sinner, but that would make God kinda messed up. I don't know all the answers, and I don't get along with theists much.
Quote from: Cin on July 22, 2016, 03:05:02 PM
I don't meet atheists regularly, and I kinda ignored science in school and I'm giving it another try.
I dont think I've met anyone in real life who is religious in many years. I suppose there must be some, and I'm just not aware of it. It seems strange to me to think what it must be like in a religious community. I can't imagine it.
Quote from: AnonyMs on July 24, 2016, 04:10:16 PM
I dont think I've met anyone in real life who is religious in many years. I suppose there must be some, and I'm just not aware of it. It seems strange to me to think what it must be like in a religious community. I can't imagine it.
My experience is the opposite. If I go out to lunch with any of my friends from work, the vast majority prays before they eat.
Quote from: AnonyMs on July 24, 2016, 04:10:16 PM
I dont think I've met anyone in real life who is religious in many years. I suppose there must be some, and I'm just not aware of it. It seems strange to me to think what it must be like in a religious community. I can't imagine it.
It's like any other community. I don't really follow any religion and I can't quote from the book, I can't take the book too seriously, some people give me a hard time about it, but other people are very kind. Overall, I like it.
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 03:59:47 PM
I say loneliness, cause hope, prayer, God, these things play a significant role, so if you took that away from me, I would have a giant void in my being.
What is hope to an atheist? When I hope something goes my way, I have God in mind.
This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.
That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.
Quote from: Deborah on July 24, 2016, 04:15:50 PM
My experience is the opposite. If I go out to lunch with any of my friends from work, the vast majority prays before they eat.
I've never seen anyone do that. Is this the USA?
Quote from: AnonyMs on July 24, 2016, 04:26:18 PM
I've never seen anyone do that. Is this the USA?
Yes it is the USA. It is very common where I live in the Southeast. When my daughter was finishing 6th grade in school there was a dinner at the school for the parents and their children. The Principal led the entire assembly in giving thanks before we ate. So it is just the cultural norm.
Quote from: Eevee on July 24, 2016, 04:22:14 PM
This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.
That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.
I agree with you, that made a lot of sense to me. Thanks.
It's obvious you people did a great deal of research about psychology and human nature, I feel like I'm asking silly questions, but I'm receiving great answers.
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 04:43:50 PM
I agree with you, that made a lot of sense to me. Thanks.
It's obvious you people did a great deal of research about psychology and human nature, I feel like I'm asking silly questions, but I'm receiving great answers.
No problem :). There's no such thing as a silly question. I respect anyone who asks questions no matter what angle it comes from.
Quote from: Colleen M on July 24, 2016, 11:30:39 AM
. For a theist, the rest of the universe is mere filler as our own planet is by definition the only special one. An atheist sees so much more in those billions and billions of unique stars with each one special in its own right. For example, we see planets which rain diamonds just in our own solar system and can only imagine what kind of marvels await throughout the universe. We are on a spectacular life-altering journey of wonder and discovery, and while there are many things we don't yet understand, the only thing we will never comprehend is why theists not only don't want to come with us, but often want to hold us back.
Similarly, morality is a concrete effort to improve the human condition on this planet. The Dark Ages certainly suggest that many theists at one time saw little nobility in attempting to better people's living conditions, but I'd hoped The Enlightenment brought at least a few around to our point of view. For an atheist, morality really is its own reward in a better social environment. I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that a fanciful posthumous reward is even equal to that, let alone better somehow.
I know there are plenty of strange planets out there but, I don't know if it makes any difference if we didn't discover them.
Also the fact that life hasn't been found elsewhere, it makes it seem like earth is special to me.
That life hasn't been detected is mainly due to the vast distances involved and the age of the universe. Given the distances, it would be surprising if we did prove there was life somewhere. And given the age of the universe, thousands of civilizations could have risen and fallen before the dinosaurs here were extinct. We may be unique in the universe, but not finding any life yet doesn't prove that.
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 03:59:47 PM
I say loneliness, cause hope, prayer, God, these things play a significant role, so if you took that away from me, I would have a giant void in my being.
What is hope to an atheist? When I hope something goes my way, I have God in mind.
There's no loneliness etc for me, because I've never believed, so I have no void to fill.
QuoteAs for space, I know it's amazing but we have so much to discover but we're never going to live long enough to know everything, so unless our conscience lives on, it just comes to an abrupt end.
We might not live long enough to know everything, but there's a certain joy in learning something new, however insignificant it might be. And we would not have the science and technology that we do if everyone had that attitude.
I love this thread. I used to be always the one asking silly questions that would anger the teacher in college and U. (not wanting to lose time on details), I felt kind of stupid but then, everyone started to tell me they appreciated I asked them cause they wanted to but were too shy to do so, so I kept on. Makes a very interesting thread.
I said earlier I never believed in a god that would have created the world and rejected religions early on in my life, but I kept believing in some sort of spirituality of some sort, not knowing exactly what, or any other explanation like that we are the result of an experiment from another civilization, and ...
when I realized a few years back there was nothing, that we were just the result of evolution of life that spread because of unusual ideal conditions and elements, a coincidence, well there was a hole. There is nothing, there is no meaning to life, so we actually have to forge it, that meaning (lots of work pfff, look at the state of the world), and since we are not doing that, what are we doing exactly? Still searching... It has been a great fall I had. I mean I wasn't surprised there was no god, I kind of knew that, but that we and all of Earth is only a coincidence, multiple coincidences... That made my meaning of life approximation search for some sort of new hand to hold my leash that was now totally loose. I'm missing the right words, this is not my language.
So I totally understand the loneliness Cin talks about. I felt it big time and I'm not even a theist.
on the other hand, this kind of great gap one falls into can be of great creativity, it has been for me, for what it's worth... Art and creation in any form still seems to me like the only really good thing humans can do. That's what I do, plus constructing myself as a trans, a new person, same but... working on me and my stuff, what more can I do? I'll leave writings, thinking.
Quote from: Eevee on July 24, 2016, 04:22:14 PM
This isn't my original idea, but I think it's appropriate to use here. Imagine I promised to give you a million dollars and you had all the hope in the world that I was going to keep my word. Would that hope serve you any purpose if that million dollars never actually existed? You can hope all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll actually get anything out of that hope. In fact, that hope could be harmful. You might start planning your life as if you were going to be a millionaire soon, which would mean being frivolous with your current spending. That hope doesn't look so shiny now.
That's exactly how I see a hope in a god or an afterlife. If you live your life hoping for it to be true, you are wasting a lot of your life in potentially harmful ways. If you lose hope in something that doesn't have much validity, it can actually be very liberating. Suddenly you can focus more on what you can be more sure of in this life.
in the years before I started my transition, my therapist would tell me I have to aim at being a woman, claim to, with the help of HRT and surgeries, it is possible, and that is the goal... On my side, I was seeing what she was saying pretty much on the same level as religion. Like it's a hope, a belief, a faith I must have... And that faith would rely not on surgeries or my body reshaped by HRT, at least not according to me as I saw it then (and still), but on the society, the others, to let me in their herd if they wanted to, if they so decide I pass. And if not... Great fall. So I rejected her plan. I really felt it then as some kind of a religion, just like all the other religions I had rejected one after the other after studying them. If I do things right, if I don't sin, I will be accepted... And then, I've always been a feminist and I knew very well that many feminists don't see trans from the good eye... I figured I never could claim that I'm a woman, that it would be some kind of an imposture. So I rejected this and I never aimed to become a woman starting HRT, I aimed at being myself and better with myself. There will always be someone to tell me I can't be a woman, just like there will always be someone to say god does not exist.
I'll work on my stuff
I do not believe
anymore
I'll just be
I'm noticing that most of you or all of you believed in something at some point. I must say I went through a phase where I didn't believe in God, but it just didn't work for me but I also felt the grace of God and he communicated with me. That might happen to other people, or not, but it's not really something I can control.
I have days where I wonder if prayer even works, but then prayer either makes me feel better or something happens because I prayed.
If prayer, fear etc means nothing to you, then that means you must have a lot of time on your hands, I can see how it can be liberating, but also could be scary,
What I've noticed is that is some people say humanity is evil and selfish but soli, you sound like you have some kind of "spirit", you are more than just biology, and you made your choices in life and you are confident. Maybe others feel this way too, but I am not seeing it, maybe they are not as cynical as they seem.
I don't really like discussing God with other people, I just sort of see god as this combination of all good qualities from many religions I know, but a lot of traditional religious people obsess with sin too much, and try to condemn other people. I would never dare coming out to any of them as trans.
Anyway, I have believed in creationism for my whole life until maybe a year ago. It's worrying me that I still prefer creationism because it answers why, I don't why I'm so concerned with how life started, just one big bang doesn't make sense to me.
When I think about outer space and stuff, I feel like morality is just an illusion human beings believe in. I'm happy I can at least see where you're all coming from. When you start thinking about galaxies and planets, you feel really small and insignificant
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 11:17:15 PM
Anyway, I have believed in creationism for my whole life until maybe a year ago. It's worrying me that I still prefer creationism because it answers why, I don't why I'm so concerned with how life started, just one big bang doesn't make sense to me.
the Big Bang and the initial creation in Genesis are not dissimilar.
The Big Bang posits that there was a singularity that in an instant expanded to form all that is.
Christian theology posits that God, a singularity existing alone, spoke creation into existence that in an instant expanded to form all that is.
From that point I'll depart from the self identified creationists and all their pet theories and biblical literalisms.
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 10:41:26 PM
I'm noticing that most of you or all of you believed in something at some point. I must say I went through a phase where I didn't believe in God, but it just didn't work for me but I also felt the grace of God and he communicated with me. That might happen to other people, or not, but it's not really something I can control.
I was raised an atheist. In my teens, I did explore various religions including christianity, judaism and islam. All required that I believe in some kind of ephemeral being, which I could not bring myself to do. I also saw the divisions within each group, another negative - if they can't agree, which one is right?
QuoteI have days where I wonder if prayer even works, but then prayer either makes me feel better or something happens because I prayed.
From an atheist perspective, prayer is simply a psychological tool that makes people seem to feel better about things.
QuoteIf prayer, fear etc means nothing to you, then that means you must have a lot of time on your hands, I can see how it can be liberating, but also could be scary,
You must spend an awful lot of time praying then. I don't spend any time on prayer and yet I have a full life.
QuoteWhat I've noticed is that is some people say humanity is evil and selfish but soli, you sound like you have some kind of "spirit", you are more than just biology, and you made your choices in life and you are confident. Maybe others feel this way too, but I am not seeing it, maybe they are not as cynical as they seem.
Individuals are often greedy and evil. However, in order to function in a group, like the social animals we are, you find that the extreme examples of that are tempered by what is often called "common sense" or "group think". I'm cynical as hell, particularly about other people - a situation caused, in large part, by people of religion.
Here's something to ponder. If I went to a mental health professional and stated that I was hearing a voice, that was not my own, giving me instructions, I would likely end up medicated, in long term therapy and perhaps held in a secure facility - for my own safety. However, if I claim this voice is God, Allah, Jesus or some random Saint, I'm likely to get a pat on the head and be sent on my way..
Quote from: Cin on July 24, 2016, 11:17:15 PM
When I think about outer space and stuff, I feel like morality is just an illusion human beings believe in. I'm happy I can at least see where you're all coming from. When you start thinking about galaxies and planets, you feel really small and insignificant
Try looking though a decent telescope and you'll really feel insignificant.
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 25, 2016, 12:41:13 AM
I was raised an atheist. In my teens, I did explore various religions including christianity, judaism and islam. All required that I believe in some kind of ephemeral being, which I could not bring myself to do. I also saw the divisions within each group, another negative - if they can't agree, which one is right?
From an atheist perspective, prayer is simply a psychological tool that makes people seem to feel better about things.
You must spend an awful lot of time praying then. I don't spend any time on prayer and yet I have a full life.
Individuals are often greedy and evil. However, in order to function in a group, like the social animals we are, you find that the extreme examples of that are tempered by what is often called "common sense" or "group think". I'm cynical as hell, particularly about other people - a situation caused, in large part, by people of religion.
Here's something to ponder. If I went to a mental health professional and stated that I was hearing a voice, that was not my own, giving me instructions, I would likely end up medicated, in long term therapy and perhaps held in a secure facility - for my own safety. However, if I claim this voice is God, Allah, Jesus or some random Saint, I'm likely to get a pat on the head and be sent on my way..
I've always had an issue with religion, since there are many, I got the feeling that every religion at some level teaches that it's the only right way to god. I may be wrong, but even within a religion, there are people with differing opinions, so I decided just to ignore people, and I associate religion with people
As for prayer, well, prayer IS life, at least a big part of my life. It's like mental preparation for me, and also comfort, but I think other people have trained themselves to the point where mental preparation comes easily.
I never really thought of the hearing voices thing, that's interesting. I don't think God can talk to me, I don't hear voices, but I see signs of god helping me out, but it's a subjective thing. Mostly just incredible coincidences happening at the right moment to make things better for me.
I know man can be destructive, but does science tell us why we care for our pets and other animals? Is it beneficial to us?
Quote from: AnonyMs on July 25, 2016, 01:38:53 AM
Try looking though a decent telescope and you'll really feel insignificant.
If I feel insignificant, "why even bother?" is the question that comes to mind.
But some of you people have said why does it even matter if life has no meaning. I think that's a good point but I don't know how long it would take for me to change myself or if it's even possible.
Please don't mind me sharing a personal experience, there have been times when things looked really bad when literally, just prayer sorted things out for me. No amount of prayer has fixed my gender for me, but when I was younger I did believe prayer could help with that, but I am extremely fortunate and lucky in other ways, I feel blessed. I don't know how this sounds to others, but praying and not worrying too much has helped me a lot.
I've done a lot of stupid things in my life, just when I think things cannot get any worse, they get better. I know prayer doesn't work for some, I can't say "pray harder" or "you're not doing it right" but I must say I'm fortunate.
I guess to see any benefit in prayers, one has to believe strongly beforehand that the prayers will have an effect. When I was kid, I was being bullied all the time, so my first reaction was to pray it doesn't happen. I tried to believe what my mama said. I was a good kid, doing nothing wrong, no harm to others and the others were attacking me. I don't know if I didn't believe enough... Prayers didn't work. Actually, I think that's what I was told, that I didn't have the faith enough... Really :-\ I was very skeptical to say the least.
I remember one time I was sitting in the snow with my jacket half torn, my nose bleeding, one of my boots way over there in deep snow... and I was pondering the sayings of Jesus they were telling me he had said, to offer my other cheek if I get slapped. I must have been 8 years old. I couldn't understand, couldn't make any sense out of it. Belief in whatever didn't make any sense, my mom's sayings, any god's... I figured then that I was on my own and that humans were generally bad. What I was seeing and going through and the wars the humans had done in the past and still didn't align with what they were telling me that god was good. Well how so? I couldn't see how this god or any other could be good. Obviously some people were starving (I saw on TV)... All this was not reasonable
The funny thing is I now understand the offer your other cheek part. I'm totally a promoter of non-violence and that is what I thaught to my children: don't fight back, violence brings violence. I read the New Testament a couple times since. There are sayings in there worth reading and thinking about, whoever said or wrote them.
so from early on in my life, morality as explained to me didn't make any sense, it didn't align with what seemed reasonable and good in my point of view, which naturally seemed to be the right point of view. I understand now this might have been the result of a brain with autistic traits, being certain I was right. So that's another thing: how we understand god and morality has to do with many things, one of them is the brain to process it. All human brains don't function the same way. Autistic people have a hard time believing. In whatever. They have to see a reasonable explanation first. I figure believing is probably easier for some humans than others.
just a thought:
in my understanding, Jesus was basically saying: You have to change, you read the writings the wrong way.
He was a rebel and didn't agree with the morality system in place in his time. Wasn't he?
I liken prayer to the placebo effect. If you believe in it enough you will convince yourself events are conspiring to fulfill them. The Human brain is wired to see patterns, even if a pattern doesn't really exist.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 03:06:11 AM
I know man can be destructive, but does science tell us why we care for our pets and other animals? Is it beneficial to us?
There are many studies that show that people benefit greatly from having pets. Stress relief, companionship, entertainment, and they can even help strengthen our immune response. Then there is the practical side of why people started to use various animals which benefit us. Humans are relatively slow compared to other animals, so we adopted the horse. Humans are fairly weak, so we adopted large animals to haul stuff. Humans don't have the greatest sense of smell so we use dogs.
All my questions are being answered. It seems the answers were simple. There are practical reasons for everything we do.
I can't say prayer is for everyone but I don't think it can cause any harm.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 02:54:55 PM
I can't say prayer is for everyone but I don't think it can cause any harm.
Prayer that is offered with good intentions never does harm. I am never offended if someone who means well offers to pray for me. I appreciate the intention even though I am not a believer myself.
Quote from: Soli on July 25, 2016, 09:21:53 AM
. Autistic people have a hard time believing. In whatever. They have to see a reasonable explanation first. I figure believing is probably easier for some humans than others.
Doesn't science involve a little bit of faith or believing? If it's a theory based on an assumption, it could be wrong. I read somewhere that we may be imagining dinosaurs wrong, but most people trust science so much, it's always the best option for them by default.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 03:17:29 PM
Doesn't science involve a little bit of faith or believing? If it's a theory based on an assumption, it could be wrong. I read somewhere that we may be imagining dinosaurs wrong, but most people trust science so much, it's always the best option for them by default.
No. Faith is believing without evidence. Science uses observation and testing to make judgements about the universe around us. It's not assumption-based at all. Any guess that science ever makes is placed into the hypothesis category, which still has at least correlation to promote it. To go beyond that hypothesis in any way, scientists test it and make sure it actually works. This is what eventually leads to scientific theories, which I will add have nothing to do with the common use of theory that most people assume it does.
Quote from: Soli on July 25, 2016, 09:21:53 AM
I guess to see any benefit in prayers, one has to believe strongly beforehand that the prayers will have an effect.
I believe 100% now, but only after doubting it in the past. I just accepted that not all prayers are answered.
Is placebo effect proven or not? All articles I read makes it sound like a miracle.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 04:51:35 PM
Is placebo effect proven or not? All articles I read makes it sound like a miracle.
Here's what I do know about it: the rate of success of prayer does not exceed the rate of chance any time it has been tested. That doesn't mean there aren't some positive effects of prayer in the right scenarios. Prayers do help people who believe in it to calm down, which can increase their rate of survival in some bad spots. This is the placebo effect, which isn't always a bad thing. Placebos are only bad when they are used as a replacement for more direct help. If I give you a sugar pill to cure your cancer as a replacement for actual medical aid, that's certainly not doing you much good. I don't see a problem with anyone using prayer along with proper treatment if that's their belief though. I should also add, though, that prayer isn't the only placebo that may help in this exact way.
Quote from: Eevee on July 25, 2016, 04:59:35 PM
Here's what I do know about it: the rate of success of prayer does not exceed the rate of chance any time it has been tested. That doesn't mean there aren't some positive effects of prayer in the right scenarios. Prayers do help people who believe in it to calm down, which can increase their rate of survival in some bad spots. This is the placebo effect, which isn't always a bad thing. Placebos are only bad when they are used as a replacement for more direct help. If I give you a sugar pill to cure your cancer as a replacement for actual medical aid, that's certainly not doing you much good. I don't see a problem with anyone using prayer along with proper treatment if that's their belief though.
Very interesting, this is one of the strangest things in science, I think.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 03:59:46 PMI just accepted that not all prayers are answered.
The way I heard one believer put it, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is no.
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 25, 2016, 07:03:56 PM
The way I heard one believer put it, God answers all prayers. But sometimes the answer is no.
That may be true.
Things have been going well with prayer for me, all my prayers have been answered recently, but I don't expect God to make all debt disappear or build a new home. That's too much.
I've been reading about objective and subjective morality, there are so many faiths, I think that's one of the things that puts off atheists. I am a sinner in some peoples' books probably, it's a real problem cause there are so many faiths and they all say they are true.
I have friends who tell me I should be more open minded, and I should learn something just for the knowledge. For example, learn from a science book, but don't feel like it's trying to change your beliefs, it's not an easy thing to do.
One thing I notice that some people try to do is treat science like an either/or situation. Like science is its own religion and you can either believe in science or believe in God but you can't do both. That's not the case at all. Science is just a method of gathering information about the universe, nothing more. Religion deals with a spiritual nature that lies beyond the confines of the universe and thus is (sorta) outside the realm of science. I personally have no problem with people turning to religion to find comfort in things that science has yet to answer. The only problem I have is when people answer a question with "God" when science has already provided the actual answer. If someone asked "Why is the sky blue?", "God did it" is no longer sufficient when we know why the sky is blue. Molecules in the air scatter blue light more than red light.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 10:24:26 PM
I've been reading about objective and subjective morality, there are so many faiths, I think that's one of the things that puts off atheists. I am a sinner in some peoples' books probably, it's a real problem cause there are so many faiths and they all say they are true.
It seems you think that being an atheist is hard.. It's not, it's really quite simple - especially when I was never indoctrinated as a child.
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 26, 2016, 01:02:12 AM
It seems you think that being an atheist is hard.. It's not, it's really quite simple - especially when I was never indoctrinated as a child.
it is kinda new to me. I thought everyone had some kind of prayer or ritual or something like that, but atheists don't have that, and you don't feel like you have a void, so, I'm just fascinated by how you deal with.. Say bad stuff happening in your life, i look for reasons, but you don't. I feel like my brain works very differently, that's why it seems hard to me.
Quote from: Semira on July 25, 2016, 11:56:47 PM
One thing I notice that some people try to do is treat science like an either/or situation. Like science is its own religion and you can either believe in science or believe in God but you can't do both. That's not the case at all. Science is just a method of gathering information about the universe, nothing more. Religion deals with a spiritual nature that lies beyond the confines of the universe and thus is (sorta) outside the realm of science. I personally have no problem with people turning to religion to find comfort in things that science has yet to answer. The only problem I have is when people answer a question with "God" when science has already provided the actual answer. If someone asked "Why is the sky blue?", "God did it" is no longer sufficient when we know why the sky is blue. Molecules in the air scatter blue light more than red light.
I like to believe God made human beings or God accelerated our evolution cause we're so different from other animals, it's the only logical explanation to me. For the most part, I believe in evolution. I'm also OK with the thought that God made life on earth, after that it was just nature and evolution. I can't seem to change my need for some kind of creator, because life seems so complex.
That's the pretty much my only issue with science vs God,
I also must admit that if I don't understand something, I go for the simpler explanation and it's usually from religion.
Quote from: Cin on July 26, 2016, 02:13:31 AM
it is kinda new to me. I thought everyone had some kind of prayer or ritual or something like that, but atheists don't have that, and you don't feel like you have a void, so, I'm just fascinated by how you deal with.. Say bad stuff happening in your life, i look for reasons, but you don't. I feel like my brain works very differently, that's why it seems hard to me.
Hmmm.. Bad stuff happens.. You mean like my GF died? Yep, it was bad. Why did it happen? That's easy, liver failure due to chronic alcoholism. There's the reason. Yes, it was hard, but my friends and family helped me through it.
Quote from: Cin on July 25, 2016, 10:24:26 PM
I've been reading about objective and subjective morality, there are so many faiths, I think that's one of the things that puts off atheists. I am a sinner in some peoples' books probably, it's a real problem cause there are so many faiths and they all say they are true.
A lot of us like some gods. Bacchus could probably throw one heck of a party, for example. Ptah seems like a solid guy. I'm sure there are others, but I like them the same way I like Han Solo. Also, polytheistic religions are much less Manichean and don't suffer nearly the "us vs. them" intolerance problems monotheism creates, so you're a "sinner" in fewer religions than you think.
At the end of the day, a good working definition of religion is "the lies we tell ourselves because we're afraid of death and don't understand the world around us." I submit that cowardice, ignorance, and deception make a poor foundation for anything.
It's so hard to change your ways. I'm trying to be more rational, but every time I make progress, I seem to hit the reset button subconsciously and I feel like I'm back where I was.
I am happy with God, but what I want to be like is what semira said, I want to be able to have both science and faith.
Also, colleen M, I can't disagree with anything you're saying, I can see where you're coming from but it is not easy to change.
You cannot have both a fundamentalist faith built on biblical literalism and science at the same time. I tried that once and there is too much mental discord involved in trying to simultaneously believe two things that are mutually exclusive. So do some study on both and you will come to realize what is true and what is not. I do not find it difficult to retain a belief in God. As I've written elsewhere, God is as valid an explanation for some of my life experiences as any other explanation. But I did have to abandon any notion of biblical literalism. That's not such a huge step either. Christian writers from nearly 2000 years ago were doing the same thing.
Anyway, if being created in the image of God refers to the intellect, as Christian theology has always proposed, then it seems foolish to me to abandon the intellect in order to appear pious.
For me, none of this has anything to do with a fear of death. It did at one time but not any more. Ceasing to exist simply means the pain in this life is finished and that's nothing to fear. So at some point in the future I will close my eyes and either find out that the spirit continues in some fashion or all cognizance will cease and there will be the peace of nothingness.
Quote from: Cin on July 05, 2016, 05:06:42 PM
Aren't human beings the only creatures capable of believing in a higher power?
Humans also seem to care about the survival of other animals too, which I don't think I've seen in other animals
Animals long associated with us as partners and companions such as dogs and cats do as well.
Quote from: Cin on July 04, 2016, 04:23:55 PMI like to keep an open mind and would like to know where the concept of good and evil comes from. I am having difficulty seeing things differently, any insight would be greatly appreciated. Is there a scientific reason, is it human nature?
I would suggest the concept of good and evil is ideology, which is informed by culture, and culture is informed by basic biology.
What is good and conducive to human survival and harmony (harmony being conducive to survival) is considered to be good. So there would be the origin of "thou shalt not kill (indiscriminately)", "thou shalt not_____" (steal, rape, abuse children, etc.) because what all of these things have in common is that they lead to psychological damage, physical harm, social disharmony, therefore are bad/evil. The concept of the seven deadly sins is almost self explanatory in that all of these psychological states are states that can precede bad decision making, obsession, or are otherwise unhealthy in excess, so we discourage them.
There are many caveats but on the most basic and fundamental level what almost all cultures consider to be evil are indeed bad for humans and their society if overindulged, and most religions promote the idea of temperance, turning the other cheek, charity, fidelity, family etc. because these things tend to have been good for our health on the whole.
The origin of "good and evil" appears to be directly derived for the most part from what has been good for the human animal's survival, proliferation and social cohesion.
Sometimes it goes off the rails and becomes detrimental (i.e. original sin, pathological and unwarranted fear of hellfire etc.) but for the most part most things we think of as good, or as "goodness" are actually good for us.