Is suicide a sin?
According to the Bible?
Most Christians just reference the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' in response to this question.
Or 'thy body is thy temple'.
Those scriptures are vague.
Is God really against suicide?
Is it a sin?
Will a person burn in hell for it?
This includes assisted 'Kavorkianesque' suicide as well.
Is wanting to be free from pain, to descend into a world of nothingness, so wrong?
And please spare me the alleged 'selfish' aspect of suicide. This is about sin, nothing more.
Non-believers welcome if they have something to contribute other than the standard 'I don't believe in God' statements.
I'd like to answer this, if I could, Nero. My own spiritual orientation doesn't encompass sin. It does recognize that people do cause harm to themselves and to each other. But also recognizes that life is intertwined and that causes and effects are difficult to track and determine at best.
So, I have to admit I don't know. I dislike seeing folks kill themselves, but is there a Hell of some sort ready to swallow them once they have done? I don't think so; but what do I know about that? Good question, if it makes me think. I just cannot think of an answer. *smile*
Yes, people quote that verse and say it is sin. So what.
God forgives sin.
Pastors also tell you that if you have accepted Christ, all sins past present and future are forgiven. That isn't a license to sin, but you are still saved.
People say being TS is a sin, God forgives sin.
I never feared death before I knew Christ, now I have questions.
Sarah L.
Having been a moth that strayed way too close to that flame, all I will say is that it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I have not read enough of the bible to give an authoritative answer for the suicide question. However, I have given it much thought over the years.
Sin, in my mind, is too unjust. It does not allow for circumstances.
I've spoken with priests who discussed such matters. For example is it a sin to kill your family? During WWII chinese families were butally massacred by advancing japanese soldiers. Knowing that you and your family were going to die a painful slow death, is it merciful to kill them quickly before that happens?
By strict interpretation, any killing is sinful. But which is merciful?
I do not think that the goddess I have come to know and be loved by would be so black and white about sin.
I would think that she would temper her interpretation based on circumstance.
So too suicide may be sinful if you are being selfish or hurtful. But, for example, if you are in unending debilitating pain, then perhaps it is not.
I think much of sin has to do with what *you* think is sinful. If you know you are doing wrong then you are sinning. This is where free will comes in.
A round about answer ending up with "maybe yes, maybe no".
-Sandy
if ur a Christian. suicide is a sin. the only person that can take life from u is God. if ur not a Christian u'll get other answers.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/julyweb-only/42.0.html
By what I believe, yes suicide is, in most cases, a sin. But not for the reason you might think. Sin, to me and quoting from Robert Heinlein, is hurting another person needlessly but hurting yourself is not sinful, merely stupid. The problem with suicide, again in most cases, is that it badly hurts those left behind. However in the case of a terminal illness at the point when there is absolutely no hope, then I do believe assisted suicide is not sinful.
Beverly
Hi Nero :),
Another interesting thread about death. I hope it is to satisfy a curiosity about the religious stance on suicide and not because you are contemplating this yourself. :eusa_pray: I would be a hypocrite to deny that I do not fight those demons from time to time, but there are two reasons I don't succumb - my loved ones I leave behind and because it is a sin.
My Catholic upbringing has drummed that into my head and I cannot escape those thoughts no matter how I try. With respect to euthanasia, there have certainly been good grounds to end life, where a terminal patient is beyond help and having insufferable pain, BUT the Church still looks at this as sin! BUT God will have mercy on your soul, and absolve you of sin, IOW, you will be forgiven! :o
We are supposed to repect life, and that begins with ourselves, (easy to say when you think you've run out of reasons to live), and wonder and marvel at how precious it is, because it can be taken at any moment! Many people kill themselves slowly with substance abuse and self-neglect, still a form of suicide.
Anyway, it's a tough call and if regarding suicide as a sin keeps you from taking your life, then let it be so. Around this time of year is the highest incidence of self-harm, please reach out cause there is always someone willing to listen. :) :) :) :)
Take care
buttercup :)
Hi Nero,
What a coincidence this question is. Earlier I was reading an article by a Unitarian Universalist minister who had to answer that question to the brother of a suicide. The answer is 'no', it is not a sin. The reasoning behind this is that we now understand severe depression and other states of mind to be real illnesses. The suicide is a result of the illness.
I am not recommending suicide, however, it really is wrong on many many levels. I can't tell you why I didn't just kill myself because I don't really know. I'm glad I didn't, though, because I feel good and I have been helping others. I believe that I knew that self termination just is not the answer. Personally, I could not let go because somewhere deep inside I knew the pain had to end. There is an end to everything whether it is good or bad. I think it came down to who was tougher; me, or the pain.
I agree with the minister that suicide is not a sin. Calling it a sin is to steal the dignity of a person whose suffering was obviously never resolved. We may as well go around punching sick babies for crying.
no offense or harm meant to anyone,
Rebis
I think Rebis is absolutely correct here:
QuoteI agree with the minister that suicide is not a sin. Calling it a sin is to steal the dignity of a person whose suffering was obviously never resolved.
I'm more concerned that someone is in such a state of dispair that they feel like they have no hope--no out--than suicide. Whether or not it's sin is so far beyond the reality that someone is dealing with some MAJOR problems that has brought them to a point that their entire world is closing in around them.
This site is a support site, so let's do what we can to support each other and leave the theological debates to the church leaders. In the end, the grace of God outshines them all.
If no person has ever met God how would anyone know what God's wants or does not want or for that matter what will happen if a person was to displease it.
Quote from: lisagurl on November 22, 2007, 03:49:45 PM
If no person has ever met God how would anyone know what God's wants or does not want or for that matter what will happen if a person was to displease it.
Ummm, that's a hard one to explain lisagurl. A practising Christian has God within themselves, he is not someone you meet in everyday circumstances, that will come after death. So in affect, you are hurting God when you choose to take your life. I don't want to sound like some sanctimonious bible-basher here, but this is what I was taught by the priests and nuns.
This thread is questioning whether suicide is a sin. Sin is usually meant in a religious context and I am just relaying the Catholic stance on this. But as I have said, God is forgiving, and for anyone to be desperate enough to take their own life, in my eyes is not a sinner, that is God's judgement and his alone, and it is for Him to forgive.
There are many who choose suicide consciously and it is planned meticously(terminally ill patients, unrelenting mental illness) and there are many who do it unconsciously, it is a bad judgement, ( they're lonely, confused, scared, broke etc, get drunk/drugs, jump off a cliff.) If they had their choice again, they would not do it! How can any of these people be sinners? I honestly believe no one wants to kill themselves, they just want to end the pain.
buttercup
Suicide is the prerogative of the individual. In this planet, in this world, people live entirely to suit their own purposes. This is a day of rights and personal liberties. Because of this, culture in general has lost a large amount of its commitment to others and commitment to morality simply for the sake of tradition.
If you can speak your own mind and go where you please, then you can do as you please too. Everything has a consequence, especially actions taken in this life. I think most people take this course of action for lack of true realization of the consequences.
Christianity embraces freedom of will and freedom of choice. By that method, suicide is supported by Christians.
I don't see any support for, "free will" in the Bible though. However, if that god truly meant suicide to not happen, he would not have made it a possibility and such a sought after escape for many people.
In the end, if you want to ask yourself if suicide is a sin or not, and if a confused person incapable of looking past the current tragedies in his/her life is going to go to hell, ask yourself how good your god is that he would allow such a thing or not.
I know this thread will bring a lot of minds to the subject at hand. Life represents all that is good, all that is hopeful, all that is wonderful and all that is miraculous. Even the bad things in life are good, for without the bad there wouldn't be the good. It isn't about what you can escape that I want those of you in trouble to focus on, but what you'll be missing. If you don't fit in with society because humanity isn't what it once was, then don't go. Stay and fight for that virtue, that compassion that's being lost with every new music video that's coming out and every new selfish politician appointed. Find that compassion that you feel deep within you after reading a beautiful poem, after visiting the museum, after a long talk with the elderly generation that's been through things like Hitler and Vietnam. It's the compassion that's reflected back to us everyday in nature, the beautiful sunset and the glimmering of the morning dew on the sweet bed of rosemary and lavender. There is so much to live for than to die for, and living is what makes it all worthwhile.
Whenever life gets tough, I say to myself something that means the absolute world to me.
"Climb every mountain,
Ford every stream,
Follow every rainbow,
Till you find your dream."
Sister Maria, Sound of Music.
As a heads-up I am going to give you an indirect answer to this question.
Christianity has been around for several hundred years, and as such its teachings and beliefs have been altered, changed, and interpreted differently depending on who was passing it on.
I am a christian, however I am not really sure if there is a solid foundation of initial christian beliefs.
Take this into considerations, there are 25 versions of the Bible in English, all of them differing in some form or fashion...the differences even involve different words in certain areas.
So to kind of answer your question, there are going to be many different ways of looking at suicide in the christian faith...the thing you have to find out for yourself is what do you believe in your heart, since that is the only true answer.
Suicide isn't a sin. But I do believe it is a disappointment to God. If you have faith in God, then you trust him. If you trust him, you believe that he will help you weather the current storm.
I see suicide as giving up, throwing in the towel. To me it means admitting that the world is right, and that I will never make it as a woman. That there is no place for people like me, so why bother to change things? Top it off, what does it say to the next generation that has to deal with this, where do they take inspiration and hope?
Suicide hurts more then those left behind, it hurts those who you will never now meet and affect. It says God is incompetent with his children, and it dishonors him. So suicide isn't a sin, but it isn't looked upon kindly.
Quote from: Angel on November 25, 2007, 02:31:10 PM
It says God is incompetent with his children, and it dishonors him. So suicide isn't a sin, but it isn't looked upon kindly.
Funny, I was under the impression that disrespecting god was a sin.
I remember Elijah killing 40 youths for disrespecting him(they called him a bald man).
Pretty bad...
Quote from: kalt on November 25, 2007, 04:33:33 PM
Quote from: Angel on November 25, 2007, 02:31:10 PM
It says God is incompetent with his children, and it dishonors him. So suicide isn't a sin, but it isn't looked upon kindly.
Funny, I was under the impression that disrespecting god was a sin.
I remember Elijah killing 40 youths for disrespecting him(they called him a bald man).
Pretty bad...
I hate people who kill 40 youths. Are you sure they weren't "yutes"?
Quote from: kalt on November 25, 2007, 04:33:33 PM
Quote from: Angel on November 25, 2007, 02:31:10 PM
It says God is incompetent with his children, and it dishonors him. So suicide isn't a sin, but it isn't looked upon kindly.
Funny, I was under the impression that disrespecting god was a sin.
I remember Elijah killing 40 youths for disrespecting him(they called him a bald man).
Pretty bad...
Hmm, I stand by my earlier statements, but I also think that nothing in this world is black and white. Therefore suicide being a sin can't be a black and white answer. I think it depends on someone's situation.
My opinion is that those terms are not in fact vague, an really "Thou shalt not kill" pretty much sums it up. Shame it's not a bit more specific to casually omit the microbes with each breath and the animals/plants at each meal. But meh, tend to be critical of things that are handed to me by man that relate to the divine. Simply, I listen, I do not need man to tell me, ergo I am distrustful of the written laws and such, especially given that, while I know the Bible holds TRUTH I also know that there is not truth within, so, I avoid the whole deal ;) But that said, "thy body is thy temple" is all fine and dandy but certainly isn't saying that you should defile said temple. Just implying that it would be a silly thing to do. But, you have to realize that "Temple" to me is an typically in an Egyptian or Persian setting and oh those things were nice. An that this is just my take on the words presented only, not in their context. An oh don't we just love out of context stuff, but anyway...
<content removed>
P.s. It isn't a world of nothingness.
For what my thoughts are worth,
Sand in the wind...
Quote from: Chris on November 21, 2007, 04:59:41 PM
if ur a Christian. suicide is a sin. the only person that can take life from u is God. if ur not a Christian u'll get other answers.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/julyweb-only/42.0.html
Thanks for the link, but it seems to me it's saying that God doesn't think suicide is a sin but some faiths or churches may find it immoral, and only then if you narrowly define suicide so that it does not have any external forces effecting the individual and their choice, which we know is not realistic or true. We all live and make decisions, and then act, in the world. We don't exist and then die in total isolation.
I don't subscribe to the narrow definition of suicide, as it can easily be seen as someone simply dying by inaction or actions which will bring about death. If someone just gives up on life and dies shortly thereafter, is that suicide? If someone has an terminal illness or death and decides not to extend their life, is that suicide? If someone knowingly does something that has the certain risk of death, is that suicide?
Suicide, in my view, is simply another choice of death. And unless you have personally sat on the brink of it to understand it, it's not, in my view, fair or right to judge anyone who decided it was their only option. And no faith or religion can make it a universal sin because they want to. And no teacher/preacher/priest/etal of faith has the right to replace God as the judge of anyone. We're not answerable to another person about the value and meaning of our life, but God.
But that's my view.
Since Nero asked this question under the Christianity thread, I'll attempt to give an answer. But it may not be the one you like if you are looking for a simple yes/no answer.
First, what is sin? We have to decide that first or this conversation is meaningless. Quite literally, in Greek, "to sin" means to miss the mark. It is like an archer shooting at a target. There is one bullseye and many "sins". In other words, God has a will for our lives. When we turn aside from that path we "sin."
So, is it God's will that we live miserably? I don't personally believe we serve that kind of a God. I will go out on a limb and say that there is indeed a lot of sin surrounding any suicide. I see sin in the people whose bigoted views have made life so hard for us, sin in a society which refuses to act justly, sin in the life of a person who wants to end his/her life just to make things easier without taking into account the destruction left behind. I see sin in institutions who have made others feel like the only way out is suicide. I could go on, but there is enough sin to go around here.
Now sometimes, however, the circumstances are different. Think of a soldier who makes a choice to fall on a grenade to save his buddies. That is suicide. Is it a sin? Hardly. What about those who hid Jews during WW2 and faced certain death rather than give them up. That was suicide. Is it sin? I don't think so.
And what about suicide in the case of severe mental illness? Is that a sin? The water gets quite muddy here.
I also think it is a sin to hold on to this life at all costs when the quality of life has gone, such as the elderly with terminal illness. Here the water is quite muddy as well. But I do know that Christians believe in life after life. One of the greatest ways to act upon our faith sometimes is to let this life go, either for us or for a loved one.
What about in hospitals when a treatment is sometimes worse than the disease? Is is suicide to refuse treatment even when it will bring death? I don't think so.
As far as "sitting on the brink," I assure you that I have been there, too. I haven't gone over primarily, not because I am worried about what might happen to me, but because I could not leave the ones I love with that mess to clean up. Having been on the other side of things, I assure you, it's tougher than most people think. It is out of accordance with my faith to do such an unloving thing.
Now I've said all of this without quoting Bible passages, but as far as the "hell" question, I simply point to one verse which is one of my greatest comforts in this life:
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1
Peace, all!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Well stated Kristi, I agree.
Suicide is an act of desperation. We don't always have control over feelings of that type and most times others around us don't have time or are not interested in stepping in to help.
I have had to clean up after someone who did it, that is one thing that prevents me from that act, no matter how close I get I always worry about those who have to clean up my mess.
I have a friend who's son recently did it, after almost a year the mother has not recovered from it.
Sarah L.
Very well stated, Kristi. And like you, I've faced "that music" before. Like you, I couldn't do it because I realized that the family is the one left behind to deal with the damage.
My mother was terminally ill and not in full control of her faculties when she overdosed on pain medication. To this day, I believe that she's in heaven, that she's been forgiven for not completely realizing what she did at the time. But it took a while for me for accept the truth, and for a long time, I was left in a quandry of doubt. Did she sin? Only to the extent that it was still "her time" to go, I finally concluded.
Carol
ok.. im a christian.... so this will be kind of christian. :laugh:
i think that a lot of people misunderstand god. and misunderstand sin. most people who think of christianity think of an angry vengeful god. god is the opposite. God is love. love covers a multitude of sin. christ died to remove sin.
is it possible to go to heaven with sin in your heart or on your hands... yes. everyone since the beginning has sinned EXCEPT christ.
the problem with suicide is that it is a complete loss of hope and faith. both of which are hard to have if you think god hates you. the things that please god are love and faith. "good works" are a by product of love and faith, not a way of building a stairway to heaven.
so is suicide a sin? (missing the mark, missing the point) probably (because God loves you very much and has wonderful plans for you). is it forgivable? yes. from my understanding of the bible there is only ONE unforgivable sin. jesus refers to it as blaspheming against the Holy spirit. the best explanation that i have ever heard is that it means rejecting christ. a lot of people..especially christians get too caught up in the sin/law side of things... when what it is really about is the love... its all about the love.
I recall an interview with Billy Graham a few years after his son committed suicide and he was saying how Oral Roberts came to him & his wife showed them in the Bible were suicide is not a sin because at the moment of the act the person is not in their right mind and God does not hold that against a person. I'm sorry I don't remember chapter and verse that Oral Roberts used but I'm sure he knew what he was talking about. So no it is not a sin, I hope this helps.
Quote from: ErickaM on December 26, 2007, 06:51:35 PM
I recall an interview with Billy Graham a few years after his son committed suicide and he was saying how Oral Roberts came to him & his wife showed them in the Bible were suicide is not a sin because at the moment of the act the person is not in their right mind and God does not hold that against a person. I'm sorry I don't remember chapter and verse that Oral Roberts used but I'm sure he knew what he was talking about. So no it is not a sin, I hope this helps.
Random thoughts on a specific question:
1/ I leave the judging to the Great Spirit. The Book of Proverbs says that, "The crucible is for silver, and the furnace for gold, but God tests the hearts of people."
2/ God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God and God in them. I believe that to be true so I will always have the guidance of my Creator in all matters, especially one as elemental as my own living and breathing.
3/ I am not for assisted suicide as it is another step towards eugenics. Just my opinion.
4/ I see suicide as the most desperate of actions in this world. I leave it to God to judge the person who commits suicide. It is not something that I ever see myself considering.
Respectful of everyone else's opinions, I remain,
Sincerely,
Wing Walker
Regarding number four Wing Walker.
Could god influence a person enough to commit suicide, hence God causing the person to take their own life?
Quote from: shanetastic on December 26, 2007, 09:55:00 PM
Regarding number four Wing Walker.
Could god influence a person enough to commit suicide, hence God causing the person to take their own life?
Hi, Shanetastic,
Regardless of what one might believe about the existence of the Supreme Being, I believe that the choice of life and death in this dimension is ours because we have free will. My belief is that God creates and, therefore, does not endorse suicide.
Let's remember that this is my opinion and like every other opinion, needs no defense.
Wing Walker
I understand completely. I was just curious as to your opinion on the subject, so thanks for taking the time to answer Wing Walker. Much appreciated.
Quote from: shanetastic on December 27, 2007, 02:30:03 AM
I understand completely. I was just curious as to your opinion on the subject, so thanks for taking the time to answer Wing Walker. Much appreciated.
I am most humbled and you are most welcome, Shanetastic.
Whether we work to fathom what infinity or eternity is like or we wonder what the Supreme Being might do, we are limited by the fact that we are wrestling with an unlimited entity using the best of our limited minds.
It never hurts to ask or to ponder, just know that we as finite beings in this world have limits.
Again, my opinion gained by my experience.
Sincerely,
Wing Walker
Intentionally leaving unfinished business behind you is a sin. Traumatising your loved ones when they find your corps is a sin. Forcing the grief of your passing onto your family and friends is a sin. The bare act of dying is insignificant compared to these other things.
Being careful not to misinterpret or apply this too broadly, (i.e. the use of the word certainly here is important), Martin Luther said,
"I don't have the opinion that suicides are certainly to be damned. My reason is that they do not wish to kill themselves but are overcome by the power of the devil."
Once you are dead it should not matter to you. It is the living that have to deal with your mess.
Quote from: Nero on November 21, 2007, 02:08:09 PM
Is suicide a sin?
According to the Bible?
Most Christians just reference the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' in response to this question.
Or 'thy body is thy temple'.
Those scriptures are vague.
Is God really against suicide?
Is it a sin?
Will a person burn in hell for it?
This includes assisted 'Kavorkianesque' suicide as well.
Is wanting to be free from pain, to descend into a world of nothingness, so wrong?
And please spare me the alleged 'selfish' aspect of suicide. This is about sin, nothing more.
Non-believers welcome if they have something to contribute other than the standard 'I don't believe in God' statements.
Hi, Nero,
My family has been Christian since about 950 C.E.
I have no intention of committing suicide or participating in a Kavorkianesque sort of thing. As I have no intent or desire for suicide, I have no problem, however, for those who *do* take their own lives, I leave it up to their Creator, my Creator, to be the judge. Last I heard, the Creator was still the judge.
Have some fun with the conundrum of capital punishment. Who faces judgment on what? Is the state liable to Divine judgment for an execution? What of the soul of the murderer? I am glad that I am not the Supreme being thinking these thoughts in this human mind and human body. Really, I don't even want to think about "playing God." It hurts my head.
Is there really a "just war?"
Wing Walker
I went to Catholic church for my mom and dad's sake, well it was more for my dad. So I continued attending church until I was at age of 16. I sat taking up a space on a pew so it felt, always near the back of the church. So there I sat, bored out of my gourde, I would count flies in the windows and whatever else that caught my fancy outside in the Church's front yard. Well once I was *16*, old enough to make my own decisions, well needles to say that it would be the last time anyone would see my body back in a church, unless my body had contracted a bad case of riggamortis. I just plane didn't like attending church, it was boring. But through the years since I have picked up many pieces of different beliefs, cultures and different forms of religions as well as from the Bible and Qabalah which all helped to enhanced and helped me to better understand the higher power of my understanding. A learning from my own perception which was ongoing from day to day. Some call it the awakening consciousness.
Cindy
Nero,
This is a hard question...
Suicide is often the result when the pain of living equals or outweighs the pain of dying. Suicide can also be seen as a way of balancing the books, if you will. It can appear to be a way of paying for the pain that you have inflicted on others by inflicting it on yourself. When either point is reached, suicide can sing a Siren's song - one that is warm and beckoning. When both ideas are in play, it is very hard to resist.
If there is a sin, it would be in losing faith that the Almighty will help you out of the depths of the darkness that brings a person to suicide. I would like to think that the Almighty would be disappointed, but wouldn't condem you to eternal damnation.
Chaunte
Nero: Is suicide a sin?
ellie: yeah.
Nero: According to the Bible?
ellie: yeah.
Nero: Most Christians just reference the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill' in response to this question. Or 'thy body is thy temple'. Those scriptures are vague.
ellie: your life is as just as valuable as any other life. to take one's own life is still killing. it's not at all vague.
Nero: Is God really against suicide?
ellie: yeah.
Nero: Is it a sin?
ellie: yeah.
Nero: Will a person burn in hell for it?
ellie: yeah.
Nero: This includes assisted 'Kavorkianesque' suicide as well.
ellie: putting someone out of their misery on grounds of mercy, where it is truly an act of kindness is just that: an act of kindness.
Nero: Is wanting to be free from pain, to descend into a world of nothingness, so wrong?
ellie: if the pain is psychological in nature, before giving up, you should try to assuage it by therapy and/or anti-depressants. that's what i do. *gulp!*
Nero: And please spare me the alleged 'selfish' aspect of suicide. This is about sin, nothing more. Non-believers welcome if they have something to contribute other than the standard 'I don't believe in God' statements.
ellie: the problem there is that suicide is so traumatic, that the death often obliterates the years of memories of the person's life that belonged to surviving friends and family members. so, they not only lose the person, but also cannot touch their memories, which is really hard.
Great topic Nero. I've learned a lot about the folks who responded. Kristi, thanks for the great definition. beth06, I greatly appreciate your thoughts as well.
I think so often, because of some mishandling scripture etc., that the word sin, and the depth of what it really is, has been greatly misunderstood. From a christian perspective, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." In that respect, we are all the same... the playing field is level. If one is a believer, the penalty of sin (hell/separation from God) has been taken on by Jesus - he, being sinless, met the debt of missing the mark perfectly.
To get to the point of seriously attempting suicide one has to be in a terribly desperate place. In my life, I've come close a few times. As a teenager, I slit one wrist before "snapping out of it". In my 20s I tried to overdose on speed - could actually see my heart beating through my chest (that was pretty crazy) before I passed out. Sometimes, because of the lifestyle I used to lead, I am amazed I'm still alive. Right now I've got all kinds of health issues - have been in and out of the hospital 3 times since October. What is funny is the peace I've had in the midst of it all - especially in contrast to all the turmoil of my youth.
Is suicide a sin...? yes, as are so many things we do and choose. Is it the "unpardonable" sin? no.
Thoughtfully... LGF
Suicide comes out of despair. If something is a sin would mean you get punished then wouldn't it be better to at least earn the punishment ? Otherwise why would you care whether something is a sin or not ? It would make no difference anyhow.
To me sometimes it seems that no matter what you do you will suffer. If you're good you suffer a lot, if you're bad however you seem not to suffer so much. But what I always hear is "Be good or you will be punished !" You know what ... I am good and I get punished anyhow. So I think sometimes that I least should earn being punished then ...
NO ! Suicide is not a sin !
Quote from: Kristi on November 26, 2007, 10:07:47 AM
As far as "sitting on the brink," I assure you that I have been there, too. I haven't gone over primarily, not because I am worried about what might happen to me, but because I could not leave the ones I love with that mess to clean up. Having been on the other side of things, I assure you, it's tougher than most people think. It is out of accordance with my faith to do such an unloving thing.
When I sat on the brink, the thought of sin had no bearing on whether or not I would drink my "hemlock." I had every confidence that, while the Almight would be disappointed, I would still be welcomed home. The
only thing that stopped me was the lesson that this would teach my children.
That was God's grace that brought me back from the brink.
Chaunte
Kaeren,
Our particular emotional state at any one time is not the plumb line deciding what "sin" is. Emotions are not a reliable standard for anything - because they change so much from day to day, even moment to moment. From a Judeo/Christian perspective, sin is anything/everything that does not line up with God's word.
So, while I believe that suicide will not necessarily send you to "hell", it is still sin... in that the taking of a person's life is murder - which is certainly listed as a violation of God's law - you know, Thou shalt not kill/do murder. Murdering one's self is still murder. Saying that, one must also know that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I emphasized ALL, because that means the playing field is level. No one is better than another ... we are all in the same boat.
Hopefully clarifying, and most definitely thoughtfully... LGF
Quote from: littlegreenfly on June 16, 2008, 10:32:50 AM
Kaeren,
Our particular emotional state at any one time is not the plumb line deciding what "sin" is. Emotions are not a reliable standard for anything - because they change so much from day to day, even moment to moment. From a Judeo/Christian perspective, sin is anything/everything that does not line up with God's word.
So, while I believe that suicide will not necessarily send you to "hell", it is still sin... in that the taking of a person's life is murder - which is certainly listed as a violation of God's law - you know, Thou shalt not kill/do murder. Murdering one's self is still murder. Saying that, one must also know that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I emphasized ALL, because that means the playing field is level. No one is better than another ... we are all in the same boat.
Hopefully clarifying, and most definitely thoughtfully... LGF
Little green fly,
I understand there is a judeo/christian perspective. However there is also a reality perspective.
There is something unclear to me. I mean, God's word. I don't seem to understand that. And I also don't believe people who tell me they have a direct phone line with God and that they are the superpowers that know the truth. Because he/she doesn't seem to answer. I could imagine an answer of course but that would be my own emotions then of course. Yes, they do change all the time. As I don't want to play God I prefer to listen to what he/she has to say. On the other hand, he/she seems to answer immediately because there is a reality we live in. Strangely enough this reality is all about killing. I'm not talking about ten rules or so you have to live by. I'm talking about reality. We are here to die, to be killed by time. Who is the big sinner killing us ? And right you are, it is our obligation to fight that with every bit of energy we have.
If killing yourself is a sin. Couldn't you say that in reality the world around you killed you. You only pulled the trigger but in order to get that far a long way was gone. Who made the sin then ? The one who started it or the one who finished it ? You could even kill yourself by neglecting your reaction to an aggression.
Some old woman of 75 years old killed her husband recently in my country. You know why ? He bullied her for the last 50 years and she simply couldn't take it anymore. On a recent day he attacked her to kill her but she reacted this time. Did she commit a sin ? She finally killed her predator.
===============
I have another question. It bothers me a lot. Maybe you could give some advice what to do ?
I happen to be handicapped. My handicap is to have a conscience, and not even a small piece of sadistic pleasure in hurting others. It's just not my thing. I have even a bigger handicap. I work with a psychopath. I suppose we fit together as we are each others opposites. If you see her ( yes the psychopath is a woman ) you'd think she's an angel. Small lady also. However, make no mistake, the only emotion this person has is one of self-pity. She married one of her family. Genetically close to herself. I find that an important matter to understand the behavior. This person I work with is a top manager with strong political links and part of the elite financial international environment.
This is my life and it scaring. I should have seen it before but now it is too late. Do you have any advice to give me ? How do I escape ? How do I survive ? Staying would be killing myself and that is a sin.
In the world I live in killing is all around. Every moment is killed to be replaced by the next moment. I believe we call it life. Life and death seem to be the same while being opposites. It's confusing.
Kaeren.
Kaeren,
Wow, lots of stuff there. I appreciate your honesty and your questions. I would really like to take this discussion, if you're willing, a little more one-on-one through PMing. If you are comfortable with that shoot me a note. Maybe we could go through each of your thoughts and questions together and really unpack things - on both sides... I certainly want to understand you and your perspective, as well as sharing mine.
Available... hopefully a new friend,
lgf
I've suffered from severe depression since I was a child and thought about suicide at age 10. I don't think I ever heard anyone say suicide was a sin until I was in junior high and some of my Catholic friends mentioned it. My church just never said anything about it one way or the other. At least not that I ever heard. I've given the matter much thought over the years and have contempated suicide many times (but never actually attempted it). Each time I felt that God would understand if I did something like that while in the midst of so much pain. Looking at that sort of despair when there seems to be no end in sight is overwhelming. And yet each time, it was like He reminded me that there was hope and that I didn't have to resort to suicide. He's always given me the strength to hold on just a little longer, and I'm thankful for that.
Hmmm. I think that it is often considered a sin. But see, religion is about cultism. Spirituality, however, is about one's interpretation of religion. You don't have to follow the heard like a dumb sheep to believe in God, Jesus, etc. or to love them.
Is God against suicide? I don't believe so. Just like I don't believe God is against masturbation or homosexuality ("wasting the seed"). I think that is all stuff the church has added to the Bible. I don't think the Bible is an accurate source anymore. I prefer the scrolls as a reference. The scrolls of which the Bible originated from in their original Hebrew, Greek, etc. formats.
I don't believe in sin anyhow, so what a bunch of religious folk believe doesn't matter to me. If I want to make Kamakaze, I'll make my Goddamn Kamakaze. I hope despite my lack of belief I have contributed some useful insight.
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 07:11:36 PM
I think that is all stuff the church has added to the Bible. I don't think the Bible is an accurate source anymore. I prefer the scrolls as a reference. The scrolls of which the Bible originated from in their original Hebrew, Greek, etc. formats.
Hey big guy!
Just to let you know, I do have copies of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures in their original languages, along with all of the variants archeology has been able to find thus far. And yes, I do read them all. I don't necessarily disagree with where you came out (see my comments above), but it is not because the church or anyone else added to the Bible. It is very easy to check that today.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.
As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.
Do you mean like the scrolls that the lawgiver passed down to Zaius people?
I'd like to get my hands on those scrolls.
Which reminds me, doesn't one of the ancient laws say 'thou shalt not kill'? If so, should it be presumed that one of the things that thou shalt not kill, is thyself?
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:23:44 PM
Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.
As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.
As a matter of fact, I do, Elwood.
And as far as being complete, I think that it might surprise you how complete things are. Of course the original autographs are nowhere to be found anymore. This is a long and complicated subject, but the scholarly community has been very diligent to develop with is called the critical apparatus, which list all known possible variations to the texts from literally thousands of sources nowadays, weighted as to probability of accuracy. These can be anywhere from small papyrus fragments to complete vellum scrolls like the Dead Sea Scrolls. The new (5th) edition with the latest updates to the Hebrew scriptures is due out soon, and many of us are excited.
If you are interested, this is what I happen to use: (I've included some links for you to follow up if you want.)
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia)
Novum Testamentum Graece / Nestle-Aland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.
An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:43:39 PM
I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.
An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?
No, the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are instructions to the Qumran community about how to run it's affairs, instructions for daily living, jurisprudence, and so on. The only part they considered to be scripture were the same books as in the Old Testament.
Quote from: Kristi on July 19, 2008, 09:43:09 PM
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblia_Hebraica_Stuttgartensia)
Novum Testamentum Graece / Nestle-Aland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece)
I'll show my age by saying I remember being excited when those two were first published.
a legitimate ancient scribe is more likely to sue over copyrights.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 19, 2008, 09:48:59 PM
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:43:39 PM
I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.
An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?
No, the majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls are instructions to the Qumran community about how to run it's affairs, instructions for daily living, jurisprudence, and so on. The only part they considered to be scripture were the same books as in the Old Testament.
There are parts that include scripture, therefore they are relevant. The instructions, if they are words of God, are still words of God. It was interesting how those Scrolls say a lot of Earth shattering things that the Bible doesn't.
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:43:39 PM
I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.
An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?
Have you actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls? I have. Both in Israel and here is the US. I have also been to Qumran to see where they were unearthed and visited the ruins of the Essene community there. The most remarkable thing about them is how amazingly consistent they are with the Hebrew test the Hebrew Masoretes were able to preserve.
As far as telling which texts are accurate and which are not, this is a really deep subject. Some of the criteria are the comparison with other known texts, the setting in which it was found, and the difficulty of the reading. This would take a very long time to explain, and is an art, rather than an exact science. However, two things must be said: First of all, the variants are there for virtually anyone who wants to look and make an informed decision. Second, almost none of the variants are substantive in nature. In other words, few of the variants would significantly change the meaning of the text, no matter which was chosen.
Feel free to pm me if you want to talk about this more.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 19, 2008, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:23:44 PM
Wait, so you know Hebrew and Greek? Most Christians I know don't go so far as to actually check.
As for the Bible in those languages, it still isn't complete. It's really only complete when one reads the ancient scrolls. A lot of them people don't consider part of the Bible, but they are. The Bible is an abridged version of the scrolls.
god hebrew and greek is MISERY
i had 8 graduate hour requirements of hebrew and i did 12 of koine greek, being a glutton for punishment. i still remember some of the greek, the hebrew is long, long gone
(hands ancient scribe business card, offers to represent for 30% contingency)
That is wicked awesome.
Posted on: July 19, 2008, 08:01:59 PM
Quote from: Kristi on July 19, 2008, 10:00:26 PM
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 09:43:39 PM
I am not entirely sure of what scrolls you speak.
An obvious one is the Dead Sea Scrolls, but most people think they aren't part of the holy scripts. If not, what the hell are they? Ancient counterfeits? And how do you tell the difference between a legitimate ancient scribe and an ancient liar?
Have you actually seen the Dead Sea Scrolls? I have. Both in Israel and here is the US. I have also been to Qumran to see where they were unearthed and visited the ruins of the Essene community there. The most remarkable thing about them is how amazingly consistent they are with the Hebrew test the Hebrew Masoretes were able to preserve.
As far as telling which texts are accurate and which are not, this is a really deep subject. Some of the criteria are the comparison with other known texts, the setting in which it was found, and the difficulty of the reading. This would take a very long time to explain, and is an art, rather than an exact science. However, two things must be said: First of all, the variants are there for virtually anyone who wants to look and make an informed decision. Second, almost none of the variants are substantive in nature. In other words, few of the variants would significantly change the meaning of the text, no matter which was chosen.
Feel free to pm me if you want to talk about this more.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Yes. They were in California and I was in there for hours reading what I could. Unfortunately, on their displays they had English texts. I was hoping they'd also have a clear version of the actual text as well. Their translations were pretty close to accurate, but still simplified and specified for the English language. It was pretty disappointing.
It's amazing that the Scrolls are in the condition they are in. They were taped together some time after they were unearthed (the morons!).
Some of the variants are actually different enough that many traditional religious views and rituals are thrown out the window.
Well, I'm sticking with the lawgiver's version. He ain't steered me wrong yet.
Quote from: Elwood on July 19, 2008, 10:04:38 PM
Some of the variants are actually different enough that many traditional religious views and rituals are thrown out the window.
Such as?
I'd really have to look back at my resources. I apologize for the inconvenience because I'm sure you really had a curiosity on what I had to say (as you seem to study the stuff). However, I am 500 miles away from all of my books. I can't possibly remember any of it off the top of my head... :-X
I think that I would never wish to argue about this (Bible editions, that is) with Kristi! She knows her stuff. However, if we ever do get together Kristi, I would love to have you tell me all about it. I'm a sponge when it comes to ancient history. I eat it up!
I try to catch all the documentaries that are put out. It is fascinating stuff. Think of it.... this is some of the first recorded history.
Cindi
Cindi
Posted on: July 19, 2008, 08:49:00 PM
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 19, 2008, 10:40:46 PM
if i recall, the isaiah scroll is almost word for word accurate with modern texts.
That.... and parts of the LDS church's "Book of Mormon" .... ;)
Cindi
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 19, 2008, 10:40:46 PM
if i recall, the isaiah scroll is almost word for word accurate with modern texts.
You are correct, and that is a tribute to how meticulous the people who made all the copies were. Some of the marginal notes in the Masorah are for the next set of copyists to use. They contain things like, "this verse contains exactly X letters and the middle letter is Y." If after copying the verse, the count and middle letter didn't match, the new scroll went into the lumber bin to be used as fuel to heat the Synagogue.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 19, 2008, 10:50:05 PM
That.... and parts of the LDS church's "Book of Mormon" .... ;)
Cindi
LOL
Well let's see, I have to dig out my Urim and Thummim and check it out.
If you are interested in some of the comparisons, including the Isaiah text mentioned, here is a link you might wish to follow up on:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266 (http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/266)
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Suicide a sin?, I have no idea as I stopped believing that reconstructed-hebrew-death-cult a long time ago. I do believe it isn't a good idea as you can't come back if you change your mind about it later .. :)
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 20, 2008, 05:23:18 PM
and, i hear, an ancient list of ingredients for "smores."
Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian. Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.
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Quote from: Kristi on July 20, 2008, 05:30:27 PM
Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian. Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
I'm not convinced that anyone ever wrote in it either!
Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity. I think he made them up. But hey... .what do I know?
Cindi
I think he made them up.
I'm pretty sure its all made up.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 20, 2008, 09:44:20 PM
Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity. I think he made them up. But hey... .what do I know?
Cindi
Actually you know quite a bit. Sorry about the rather tongue-in-cheek humor. Hope it wasn't offensive. It wasn't meant to be.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on July 20, 2008, 09:56:20 PM
Actually you know quite a bit. Sorry about the rather tongue-in-cheek humor. Hope it wasn't offensive. It wasn't meant to be.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Oh... you are too kind. There are certain things that will blow my stack. But no one will ever know what they are. Because I refuse to pass that feeling on to someone else. I just cool off and let it pass.
But Kristi, I doubt that anything you would ever say could get me upset. I found your urim and thummim comment pretty funny.
While I have no wish to offend anyone with their personal beliefs, I feel that a bit of light humor is never out of line.
I fear that we have steered way off topic though in this thread. What was it? .... oh yes...
Is suicide a sin?
I don't believe in the concept of sin. You reap what you sew. You don't get an education, you don't get a job. You steal from a bank you go to jail. You steal from millions of consumers, you get a $20 million bonus. The world is not fair. Life is not fair. Bottom line is you just have to make your way the best you can.
If you do yourself in, then the world is a poorer place without you. Of all the people that I knew who killed themselves, there was not one that wasn't a feeling and caring person. What sadness to lose a beautiful life. I am saddened that we can't find a way to preserve the precious when there is so much ugliness in this world.
I do contemplate the end of my life from time to time. It is uncomfortable to talk about here. But I realize that there is much to do. I believe that I have made a difference somewhere somehow and that I may continue to do the same. There are people who love me and I love them. I can't leave all that.
Cindi
Hi Cindi, maybe I am just wasting my time again, lately I feel like I'm wasting my time submitting posts and getting nothing in return. Your posts have never failed to arouse my interest, I love reading them. As usual, this post has brought tears to my eyes.
Quotethe concept of sin. You reap what you sew. You don't get an education, you don't get a job. You steal from a bank you go to jail. You steal from millions of consumers, you get a $20 million bonus. The world is not fair. Life is not fair. Bottom line is you just have to make your way the best you can.
If you do yourself in, then the world is a poorer place without you. Of all the people that I knew who killed themselves, there was not one that wasn't a feeling and caring person. What sadness to lose a beautiful life. I am saddened that we can't find a way to preserve the precious when there is so much ugliness in this world.
I do contemplate the end of my life from time to time. It is uncomfortable to talk about here. But I realize that there is much to do.
My own feelings put into words by a cyber sister. But I will never take my life with my own hands, there is just to much to live fore. But what could have happened to Wing Walker a couple of days ago I can't say I didn't entertain the idea. I have no desires to living alone.
You don't need to feel that you have to respond to this post, no one else does anyway.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on July 23, 2008, 01:18:34 AM
You don't need to feel that you have to respond to this post, no one else does anyway.
Cindy
You know doll, that I wonder about such things as well. I can't tell you how much I write. Some of my drivel ends up in the forums here. I was reminded recently by a dear friend that she doesn't seem to get responses either from her writings. Yet she told me that many people read, understand, and appreciate these posts. I know that you have been a comfort to me on more than one occasion. So, know that you do make a difference.
Cindi
Hi Cindi, after all the crap you been through and you still come up swinging. Such is the life of a gentle warm hearted lady. I have on many occasions have related to what you submitted in your posts. Sweets, I will pray with all my heart that such will be that you are never alone. I fear that it is this very possibilety that could end our lives.
There is no need and it is senseless to commit suicide but on the other hand I am terrified of ending up alone. I can thank Great Spirit that I am healthy as an ox hmmmm..... well a very small ox. What you have shared with us I have treasured, sister, and have learned much from those writings. I especially loved the science one and all you have shared about your small observatory. I do read your posts, hon.
Have a wonderful day!
Cindy
Hey now Cindy
thats twice in two days you have been down, your posts are some of the most welcome here and mean alot to alot of people i know for sure, i love to read other peoples life experiences it helps relating to my own and the hard steps you haveto take to move on with one's own transition.
Please dont stop posting or feel your not valid, relevant, ignored or even loved on this board. Its hard sometimes with so many voices and so many people crying out for help to hear what everyone is saying but i have found it sometimes takes 20 posts just to get one person to hear what your really trying to say.
I hope wing walkers feeling better and hey now smile your like a ray of sunshine in what is usually a very grey world.
As for suicide what girl hasnt felt alone enough to contemplate that at one time in their lives i know i have, thank god for The Samaritans. For my part its only recently i have managed to find a shred of support but to takes ones own life yes a sin but not to religion, its a sin to take your own life and everytime someone does the world dies just a little bit more.
Vanna X
Thank you Vanna. You asked for it, here is one of my stories of a time past that is still quite real and alive in my mind. And please don't worry, I don't think I will be going to far hon, girl scouts honor. It was just the last couple days have kind of stressed me out some. I don't stay in a depressive mood or stay down for very long, to boring, I love playing word games and humor and dancing on the side walk when Wing Walker and I go for walks, unfortunately I guess she won't be doing the walks for a while. I ain't going to dance on the sidewalk for a while but I am not going to give up my walks either though :( But I do so love making Wing Walker laugh, and anyone else who might happen to be around as well, like the girls at Tim Horton's coffee shop, in the stores, gas stations, bank at work, don't mater much to me where, but goodness gracious isn't it wonderful when you can put a smile on someones face, that makes my day.
I guess my gift for humor I inherited from both my mom and dad, I had a pair of comedians for parents. My mom was slap shot humor and my dad.... well jack Benny style, you know, and he was quite capable of dry humor as well. You know he just loved the good old Irish songs, The father to my future foster daughter would occasionally bring his bag pipes with him, my mom just loved the pipes. Bill played the pipes and my dad sang, what a duo. but neither my mom and dad were Irish, they were both originally from Quebec spoke french fluently and there was also a mix of Iroquois on my moms side. Anyway at these parties my sister would occasionally join my dad in a sing along. Sometimes they would serenade the folks at the party by singing Bing Crosby songs or Frank Sinatra and such. Oh my, I beleive my dad could have given Fred Estair a good run for his money in a dance-athon. My dad was also an excellent figure skater, me? Not so good, I would spend more time on my little butt on the ice then I did on my skates.
When my moms friend Clare came to the parties I was on her lap no sooner that she connected with the couch. I sometimes would get a brush from the bathroom and spend goodness knows how long brushing and styling her hair. I was around six years old then, but I realy did a good job of her hair for a six year old. When I was done doing the hair brushing I would sit beside her and talk her ears off then fall asleep siting up leaning against her side. Mom would ask Clare if she would like to be relieved of me, but she would not hear of that, so I guess kid and mommy's lady friend kind of hit it off pretty good. I had someone else to suck up to. ;D I felt secure and I truly loved and I trusted this lady.
"Ahhh childhood wonders huh," I don't think I forgot one moment of it, even vaguely remember when my mom held me in her arms when I was little she had my head on her shoulder, I could hear her heart pumping in the large vein in her neck and feeling the softness of her hair and smelling its fragrance. Well enough of that huh, must let this thread return on topic. But anyway hon, I have just shared another small slice of my childhood days with you. See, this helps me to accept who I am, not remembering who the previous me was I have gradually been replacing this no longer existing person with a red headed be-freckled little girl missing a front tooth. That is who I was and that is the little girl that grew up to be me...... well, fortunately, with all my teeth. "Hee, hee, hee"
Cindy
Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 20, 2008, 09:44:20 PM
Quote from: Kristi on July 20, 2008, 05:30:27 PM
Yes, but it is written in Reformed Egyptian. Sorry, but no one around any more can read it.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
I'm not convinced that anyone ever wrote in it either!
Smith did actually write down some of the symbols.... they exist no where in antiquity. I think he made them up. But hey... .what do I know?
Cindi
Sure they exist. You just have to see them with eyes of faith. Just like the EDS eldars saw the bras... er... golden tables that Moroni gave Smith.
But that's just my jaded sense of humor, and noone should take offense at it.
Quote from: cindybc on July 23, 2008, 06:03:35 AM
Thank you Vanna. You asked for it, here is one of my stories of a time past that is still quite real and alive in my mind. And please don't worry, I don't think I will be going to far hon, girl scouts honor. It was just the last couple days have kind of stressed me out some. I don't stay in a depressive mood or stay down for very long, to boring, I love playing word games and humor and dancing on the side walk when Wing Walker and I go for walks, unfortunately I guess she won't be doing the walks for a while. I ain't going to dance on the sidewalk for a while but I am not going to give up my walks either though :( But I do so love making Wing Walker laugh, and anyone else who might happen to be around as well, like the girls at Tim Horton's coffee shop, in the stores, gas stations, bank at work, don't mater much to me where, but goodness gracious isn't it wonderful when you can put a smile on someones face, that makes my day.
I guess my gift for humor I inherited from both my mom and dad, I had a pair of comedians for parents. My mom was slap shot humor and my dad.... well jack Benny style, you know, and he was quite capable of dry humor as well. You know he just loved the good old Irish songs, The father to my future foster daughter would occasionally bring his bag pipes with him, my mom just loved the pipes. Bill played the pipes and my dad sang, what a duo. but neither my mom and dad were Irish, they were both originally from Quebec spoke french fluently and there was also a mix of Iroquois on my moms side. Anyway at these parties my sister would occasionally join my dad in a sing along. Sometimes they would serenade the folks at the party by singing Bing Crosby songs or Frank Sinatra and such. Oh my, I beleive my dad could have given Fred Estair a good run for his money in a dance-athon. My dad was also an excellent figure skater, me? Not so good, I would spend more time on my little butt on the ice then I did on my skates.
When my moms friend Clare came to the parties I was on her lap no sooner that she connected with the couch. I sometimes would get a brush from the bathroom and spend goodness knows how long brushing and styling her hair. I was around six years old then, but I realy did a good job of her hair for a six year old. When I was done doing the hair brushing I would sit beside her and talk her ears off then fall asleep siting up leaning against her side. Mom would ask Clare if she would like to be relieved of me, but she would not hear of that, so I guess kid and mommy's lady friend kind of hit it off pretty good. I had someone else to suck up to. ;D I felt secure and I truly loved and I trusted this lady.
"Ahhh childhood wonders huh," I don't think I forgot one moment of it, even vaguely remember when my mom held me in her arms when I was little she had my head on her shoulder, I could hear her heart pumping in the large vein in her neck and feeling the softness of her hair and smelling its fragrance. Well enough of that huh, must let this thread return on topic. But anyway hon, I have just shared another small slice of my childhood days with you. See, this helps me to accept who I am, not remembering who the previous me was I have gradually been replacing this no longer existing person with a red headed be-freckled little girl missing a front tooth. That is who I was and that is the little girl that grew up to be me...... well, fortunately, with all my teeth. "Hee, hee, hee"
Cindy
Hi Cindy
awwww god bless you, thats such a lovely set of memories, enough to make me cry which isnt hard i know but still i really really enjoyed reading that and although i somewhat lack any similar memories it did remind me of when i was 8 years old. My auntie Phylis used to come visit from Ottawa and always made a big fuss of me calling me her little marine and hugged me at every opportunity. She sadly passed away 2 years later but still its these memories that are so precious.
Your parents sounded like such nice people and i hope you still have that level of love in your life and they managed to pass on the same caring and laughter, there isnt anything better to make a person smile i can so relate to that. You sound like lifes really as it should be, too short for sadness and laughter and happiness are the best medicine's :)
Thanks hun, really made my day coming home and reading this post.
Hugs to you both
Vanna X
I have heard that a chimpanzee in a Japanese zoo disarmed his guard this week. Soon all of your ancient scrolls will mean nothing, for the one true lawgiver is soon to appear before us and we shall receive the only scrolls that matter.
sumpin's a Lil' fishy smelling' here.
wasn't it Rebis who had a crush on Zira from the original Planet of the Apes?
Quote from: Rebis on July 24, 2008, 08:07:02 PM
I have heard that a chimpanzee in a Japanese zoo disarmed his guard this week. Soon all of your ancient scrolls will mean nothing, for the one true lawgiver is soon to appear before us and we shall receive the only scrolls that matter.
Hey, no monkey business! This is a respectable place!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: David W. Shelton on November 21, 2007, 07:23:08 PM
I think Rebis is absolutely correct here:
QuoteI agree with the minister that suicide is not a sin. Calling it a sin is to steal the dignity of a person whose suffering was obviously never resolved.
I'm more concerned that someone is in such a state of dispair that they feel like they have no hope--no out--than suicide. Whether or not it's sin is so far beyond the reality that someone is dealing with some MAJOR problems that has brought them to a point that their entire world is closing in around them.
This site is a support site, so let's do what we can to support each other and leave the theological debates to the church leaders. In the end, the grace of God outshines them all.
Thanks Dave, you make a very good point here. Having been ready to die, having had a plan, a means, and even the desire to get up off the floor and carry that plan out makes it utterly unimportant what anyone but I was thinking.
Now, also not to engage in theology, but to simply share my feelings and experiences I want to talk about October of 1961 in a hotel bathroom in Denver.
I was raised a good little Catholic girl under Vatican I. Went to church every Sunday, came from a well off, successful family and had a pretty good life until my life went horribly, horribly wrong. What I remember of church from those days was EVERYTHING was a sin. Yeah, Santa made a list and checked it twice, good little girls and boys got presents and the others didn't get coal, they got an express ticket to hell.
I hit a rough patch. And then some. Why isn't important. But I also had a plan then, and followed it. I considered the prospect of going to hell for sin and remember thinking, and feeling, that I was already in hell, so I might as well get it over with. I had a very flippant, who the hell gives a damn if it is a sin because I was already in more pain than I could handle. I was hoping, praying, and banking on just being death and feeling NOTHING anymore. I was in so much agony, and had so little control over my own life, that suicide seemed like the one final thing I could control about my life.
I very clearly remember everything I was thinking and feeling as I placed that knife and pulled hard. The pain of the knife felt good I was in so much other pain. I had control of something finally!!! I did it a second time just to be sure. I remember the cold I felt as I was slipping into the black of unconsciousness.
I also remember the shock I felt when I woke up with a start and couldn't figure out what went wrong. I remember being stuck in the bathroom with my dead body for several days before they found me. I remember the feeling of the ANGER that hit me like a train. The anger I'd been internalizing which turned into life threatening depression and eventually cost me mine.
If it's a sin, and the claimed express ticket to hell, then I'm pleased to report I screwed THAT up so well. In 1964, well I wound up with this body, and the journey I've been on now.
If you even have to ask the question, and worry about it being a sin, I'd suggest another question for you. "Why can't I get someone to HELP ME? How do I get a doctor to help me balance my brain chemistry so I don't think dying is such a good idea?"
Okay, that was two. But ask them. I fought taking meds until I was ready to die. I wanted to die, needed to die. I hadn't yet remembered my last lifetime in that kind of detail yet. Believe it or not, my sister actually cajoled me into getting me on meds. She made me promise to give her a month, just one month, and if at the end of that month I still wanted to die, she'd let me. And while you're giving me a month, take one of these every morning and don't ask what they are until the end of the month.
Two weeks later I was terrified at what I was finding, feeling, how my view had changed, and what I'd nearly just done. My life STILL SUCKED. Nothing about my life had change except that it was two weeks later and I'd taken that little white pill every morning like she asked. That crazy, drug pushin' menace had saved my life.
Depression CAN AND WILL kill. It cost me my life once, almost twice, and cost my husband his life.
If you are worried about it being a sin, take my word for it, you're brain is playing tricks on you. Get to a doctor, ASK for help, and for goodness sake, take the pills for a while. See if anti-depressants can or will make a difference?
Doesn't matter if it's a sin or not, fight for your own health. You are so worth it!
Sam
This thread continues to trickle on...
As a result of this thread, I started a poll in the POLL section here at Susans about suicide. The data should be posted by 7/28/08. If you haven't answered, I would ask you to take a look at it. I will say that the numbers look rather interesting.
Chaunte
If I may add my 2 cents, I think that if one follows the Christian ethic literally, then maybe it IS a sin, as long as you accept the accepted view of what sin happens to be.
I have always interpreted the Christian texts thus.......God has given mankind 'free will' therefore does taking what is ones own stealing as in life itself? Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal etc could be taken many ways and I recall my former boss ( Jehova's Witness ) telling me that suicide is a ticket to damnation and an eternity in the fires of hell.
On a person level, there have been frequent times when I considered suicide to escape the agonies that I endure following my strokes, something only stroke survivors would understand and never at any time had I a thought as to whether it was sinful.
I know little of the texts of Islam and Judaism but tentatively assume them to have similar teachings given the links between the faiths and realise Hinduism respects all life. For myself, I consider life to be a journey and we make of it what we will. Some of us will sail through without problems, others will have difficulties along the way such as with my medical history and also with our gender difficulties.
I have heard from other transfolk of people choosing to kill themselves because of their transgender feelings and the lack of care and understanding etc and I feel for them but I find myself continuing my colourful journey in life, yes, strokes, transsexualism included and ask 'normal' people how intersting and varied their own lives are when they offer abuse and hatred towards me? If I could add another 2 cents, suicide would be such a waste and maybe yes, it could be considered a sin to the deity of choice :)
Interestingly enough in Hinduism, everything is about Karma and what you bring with you to your next life. So it's almost like "hit points" that you get from life to life. In Hindu thinking, if you end your own life early, you have to start the cycle of lives over, and lose any built up good karma.
Judaism has no hell, but Oy, have we got guilt! The amount of guilt you'd get for taking you own life, makes Catholics look like posers, wannbe's when it comes right down to it. Ever had your mother hounding you about guilt? Jewish mothers are worse, take it from me, I know...
You make a good point though. Frankly though, anyone close enough to be worrying the sin aspect would probably be much better served by a caring and compassionate doctor who will really help.
Sorry to hear about your stroke issues, I lost a friend young to a handful of strokes, and I wouldn't wish what she went through after her first one on anyone. How are you doing now?
Sam
Quote from: Chaunte on March 17, 2025, 12:08:11 AM
This thread continues to trickle on...
As a result of this thread, I started a poll in the POLL section here at Susans about suicide. The data should be posted by 7/28/08. If you haven't answered, I would ask you to take a look at it. I will say that the numbers look rather interesting.
Chaunte
For reference the mentioned poll is here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,39601.0.html).
I see I functionally gutted my initial words on the topic. But since there has been reference of lives past since I will chime in again to say very little, but that my last was what could be thought of "assisted suicide" -- I went and played with a pack of hyena, and lives further past have been more direct. As best I know I have never suffered "ill effect" from exiting a life early. This said I still do not believe in "sin" (the concept of indulgences really spoils it, I think.), but ignoring my why what intangible evidence we seem to have on the subject would seem to hint at suicide NOT being a "sin". However, it is just as probable I am not playing by the same rules too...
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 24, 2008, 08:53:11 PM
Quote from: Rebis on July 24, 2008, 08:07:02 PM
I have heard that a chimpanzee in a Japanese zoo disarmed his guard this week. Soon all of your ancient scrolls will mean nothing, for the one true lawgiver is soon to appear before us and we shall receive the only scrolls that matter.
did the chimp know kung fu? were aliens involved somehow?
hmmmmmm.
No. It just outwitted a human being... Until they found a banana to lure it off the roof.
Posted on: July 25, 2008, 08:35:47 PM
Quote from: ell on July 24, 2008, 10:11:33 PM
sumpin's a Lil' fishy smelling' here.
wasn't it Rebis who had a crush on Zira from the original Planet of the Apes?
Yes. And if I thought killing myself would bring zira and I together, I would do it in a second. I wouldn't see it as losing my life, but as gaining the heavens.
Signed,
Zira loving Bat-Corn
Hey all well I am strong in my faith and I know for sure the answer is it is a big sin to commit suicide no matter the problem. Of course I don't judge and say this one will go to heaven or hell because only God knows but it isnt right, mostly due to the fact that a person committing suicide is ruining any future plan God had for them, therefore taking the power out of God's hands for their own interest. Of course, I terribly feel for those in such deep suffering that they would rather die than feel the pain, and I know because I (as many of us here) have felt the same way. But thinking about it, if I had killed myself many years ago, I would have never touched the lives of the people I know today who have a completely different understanding of transgender people. And because of that, they have learned to no longer judge others. I thank God everyday I did not give in to such a horrible thing because that kind of agony we feel in that small moment when life seems so hopeless washes away over time.
Also, here's an interesting story of a woman who had a near death experience / miracle after committing suicide. This site is filled with evidence of how God exists whether it be through miracles/ NDE's/ etc. Check it out http://bibleprobe.com/angiefenimore.htm
Hi, Princess_Jasmine, hon. This is not just the heart of a woman but of an empath as well.
I quit the church when I was sixteen and just developed my own beliefs through the years, but for some reason in later years when I was going through some very troubling times with depression, bipolar, and yet again later, throw in GID, the thoughts of suicide often came to mind.
The memories of the master of hell, *satan* and the lake of fire and little devil beings poking one with their forks came to mind and that was what deterred me enough to change my mind. Cheeeeeez whiz, reading "Dante's Inferno" in high school was also one to curl..... well uncurl my hair back then.
**Not to judge,** boy, that wasn't the easiest sport to give up. But then I have better things to do besides picking whoever's seat in hell for them. I was never aggressive or feeling the need to have revenge, I was never confrontational, *peace at any price, as I see it*, nor did I ever have the desire to physically hit someone; thought about it, maybe, but it never went further than just a thinking about it. But I was certainly guilty of wishing different stuff on them. If I had a magic wand I would hate to think how much the toad population would have grown!
Bless my trespassers, I pray they only got back what was due them in Karma.
When I first started to forgive my trespassers by prayer I would pray for them when they would get their Karma. I did my amends to those I needed to do amends to in the same manner, then did an honest one later on. Now when someone gets under my skin I just say to myself, "God bless your soul" then I make a small nodding gesture, smile and move on. Do you know how many times I said the, "May God bless!" or post a message telling them I will send prayers for different individuals here on this board? Well, sometimes I get to hurting emotionally for someone here, sometimes for some silly-ass reason, but I still say say a short prayer and go on with something else.
And yes, every day we influence someone in some way or another, whether it be in a negative or positive way, or in a great way or in a small way that may feel to you practically insignificant, but to that person, you just handed then a gold mine. I suppose that is the way we should look at it when no one appears to notice our post on the board, as some have here lately, myself included. This is the reason I started a blog, I started it in the hopes someone can pick up something useful from it and I don't expect responses unless someone finds the urge to do so. The main purpose for this blog is an attempt to teach some of my own experiences and to help others to find their own way.
Cindy
yeah....what sam said. it's an academic question for those of us who aren't suicidal, but for someone in the throws..what's in a sin? isn't all of life just one big sin? why should death be any different, but...if you're in such pain as to be willing to give up your life academic stuff is really just so trivial. sin or not...if one has judged with compassion and mercy during this time here, when Jesus issues His judgment it will also be with compassion and mercy. comforting...in an academic sort of way.
I haven't read all the answers, but the bible says:
John 10:27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 8:39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So my conclusion is that nothing can separate us from God, cause it is not a matter of what sins we have done, are doing or will do that makes us saved or not, but the love and mercy God has given us by Jesus and Him carrying the sins of all humanity on himself.
Just my opinion :)
Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on July 24, 2008, 08:53:11 PM
did the chimp know kung fu?
kung fu? i don't think he needs it. an adult chimpanzee can be about six times stronger than a man.
-ell
Six times stronger, or six times smarter?
Six times stronger, or six times smarter?
Six times stronger, way more than six times smarter, as anyone who has ever watched chimps fling monkey poo at visitors will know.
If chimps have monkey poo, they must be shipping it in.
I think they are working on a trade agreement there in the zoo.
And this is the zoo where a tiger that killed a kid and mauled a few more a few years ago was shot last week after getting out again.
It's easier to kill a problem than to deal with it.
I'm speaking on all levels here.
Quote from: Rebis on February 08, 2009, 03:40:31 PM
It's easier to kill a problem than to deal with it.
I'm speaking on all levels here.
"Nothing is missed, until it is gone..." --Johnny Dowd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6m20tmEI9s#noexternalembed&related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6m20tmEI9s#noexternalembed&related)
Quote from: Rebis on February 08, 2009, 03:40:31 PM
It's easier to kill a problem than to deal with it.
I'm speaking on all levels here.
Perhaps it is easy to kill a problem so long as the person carrying the problem is also killed.
The challenge lies within the person and their ability to recognise 1) The problem
2) The ability to accept one has a problem
3) Ones willingness to accept help
4) Understanding of the potential solution
5) Trust
Please forgive me if I seem to show a juvenile simplicity and innocence but it appears a simple pathway to me but suicide ( the point of this thread ) seems a very drastic and final course of action to take. I have had very serious involuntary medical issues to deal with and although my life remains a major battle through disabilities, I like life as it is because I retain and have ownership of it.
Oh my Godlessness!
I forgot this is the suicide thread. I advise against suicide.
Does it count as suicide if I pretend to be somebody and I kill them?
I'm not particularly the religious type. So I can't really comment weather suicide is a "sin" or not. It is a difficult subject for me. I suppose it is easier for me to talk about it with people I will probably never meet and probably never really know.
I've lost some friends to suicide. It is something I wrestle with in my own mind on a nearly daily basis. I often wish I could stop thinking about it.
When I was about 10 yr.s old my mom found a hanging noose in my dresser drawer. She also wondered who broke the branch off the tree in the front yard. I didn't have the heart to tell her. So I said that I'd found the rope and blamed the neighbors for the broken branch.
I then proceeded to get involved in several situations were I should have been killed and several others did try to kill me. But, alas I'm still here; scarred up , stiff and sore.
Now I'm at an age were I figure I'll probably just fall over dead soon anyway. So I try to keep busy and not think about it too much. I'm also seeing a therapist. That seems to help some
I personally dont see it as a sin. End of.
Well the last time I set foot in a church was 47 years ago. I drank alcoholically for twenty years of my life before I found sobriety twenty years ago. The last ten years of that drinking spree I was suicidal and the only thing that kept me from committing suicide was the fear of discovering that there was a Hell waiting for me on the other side. That was enough to deter me from committing suicide. I'm still not in any hurry to find out if there is realy a Hell.
Cindy