It seems there is a lot of insecurity and concern here about passing, especially among the pre-ops and I was thinking after reading another thread* that one of the reasons I don't have that insecurity (Or at least dwell on it like I used to) is that I know I pass naked.
After being in locker rooms and saunas with other naked women, after having been intimate with men and not having them question or give any indication that I am anything but what I am, a woman, the obsession with passing passes. People who know what to look for can usually spot something about the vast majority of us that might give them a clue but who cares? I know what I am and who I am. And I believe having the experience of "passing naked" and knowing that I don't have anything to hide anymore is a major influence in that confidence and security.
*
QuoteI will never forget the feeling I had after my workout when I went to the women's locker room, took off my clothes and went into the group shower with two other women. I even chatted with them about the weather or something mundane like that. I was never concerned again about "passing".
Terri
This is a good subject.....and I think it is harder to pass naked no matter if you are pre op or post op..
female bodies are different to male bodies, the pelvis is different on females are more prominant and wider. I have done a bit of study on this comparing a genetic female and transsexual of the same height and similar builds. The both looked totally different...
Close scrutiny will show the differences but a casual observer may not be looking for these differences unless the person is supected of being TS..
There should be more opportunities and operations to narrow this gap other than breast augmentation, lipoocuction and genital surgery..
Quote from: Berliegh on December 21, 2007, 12:25:01 PM
female bodies are different to male bodies, the pelvis is different on females are more prominant and wider. I have done a bit of study on this comparing a genetic female and transsexual of the same height and similar builds. The both looked totally different...
Perhaps in some cases. But the range of "normal" for both males and females overlaps. In my own case, I have a feminine bone structure. That includes the hands, the feet, and the hips. Are there women with bigger hips than mine? Sure. There are also lots of them with smaller hips. I was looking at myself from the back last night using two mirrors. From that direction, I am perfectly passable naked.
Re: female bodies different from male bodies. A vagina usually gives it away.
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 21, 2007, 01:24:14 PM
Re: female bodies different from male bodies. A vagina usually gives it away.
Not really. I do fine in men's changing rooms - guys don't look at each other. And people don't see what they don't expect to see.
Dennis
you know why being preop erks me so much? is it people having xray vision? nah, its me knowing its there, and feeling shameful of my own body... the more female i look, the more it hurts me. having that thing, NOT being a complete, normal, girl, like all my friends breaks my heart. Does grs matter? nobodys gonna see it!
yeah
it does to me.
and Passing naked doesnt effect how one lives ones life tbh....
being happy does, but having a vagina sure helps in the shower i guess..
R :police:
For many, sexuality is not important post-op,
for those, there's not really much difference with other women with little sexuality.
As for lockers or whatever, there's always a way to change that will hide you
and I've never liked showering in public and doubt this will change.
I'll just go to the high places where they've got private seperate shower enclosures
(this helps with undressing too).
I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?
Quote from: Sarah on December 21, 2007, 11:50:58 PM
I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?
that's true we are mostly dressed......but what about in the summer in a low cut swimsuit?
our bodies are different no matter what you do to them. Even extensive abdomninal surgery doesn't eradicate the difference in shape and weather you are post op or pre op, it has nothing to do with your bodyshape.
There are some exceptions like Transsexuals who started hormones at 12 before puberty who's development could alter the pelvis but this is quite rare..
But Berleigh, there's PLENTY of women with "boy" bodies, at least 20%,
so even if you have the greatest of curves, so WHAT!!
You still do quite OK naked or almost completely naked.
BTW, did you see my swimsuit pictures. I don't want to post them again here
and be accused of turning this into a picture galery. I think I've
got plenty of shape and I'm not a GG. 26.5 inch waist and 37 inch hips.
(10 inch diff is the normal women average so my proportions are OK).
So, I don't have "boy" hips, but like I said, plenty of women have too.
Just look on fashion sites online. They all have advices with women with little curves.
Quote from: Keira on December 22, 2007, 12:36:54 AM
But Berleigh, there's PLENTY of women with "boy" bodies, at least 20%,
so even if you have the greatest of curves, so WHAT!!
You still do quite OK naked or almost completely naked.
I'd struggle if I was naked! I know I would have problems..
Quote from: Keira on December 22, 2007, 12:36:54 AM
BTW, did you see my swimsuit pictures. I don't want to post them again here
and be accused of turning this into a picture galery. I think I've
got plenty of shape and I'm not a GG. 26.5 inch waist and 37 inch hips.
(10 inch diff is the normal women average so my proportions are OK).
No, I haven't seen them.
Quote from: Keira on December 22, 2007, 12:36:54 AM
So, I don't have "boy" hips, but like I said, plenty of women have too.
Just look on fashion sites online. They all have advices with women with little curves.
It may look like it but most women in the street have much bigger hips and thighs no matter what their shape or size they are...
Quote from: Rachael on December 21, 2007, 06:15:05 PM
you know why being preop erks me so much? is it people having xray vision? nah, its me knowing its there, and feeling shameful of my own body... the more female i look, the more it hurts me. having that thing, NOT being a complete, normal, girl, like all my friends breaks my heart. Does grs matter? nobodys gonna see it!
yeah
it does to me.
and Passing naked doesnt effect how one lives ones life tbh....
Well, you can't possibly know that.
Berleigh, most women in the street have about 0.8 WHR ratio, yeah, they've got bigger hips, but they've also got a bigger waist, so in fact they're less curvy than me since I've got a 0.71 WHR.
Plenty of women are in the 1-0.8 range and if your a young athletic girl with straight hips (I've known plenty of these since I was in track and fields for 10 years). Like I said, at least 20% have boy hips. Remember, on average, women have wider hips, but there are many at the lower range which in fact have hips that are in male range.
berleigh, you have an idealised view of natal women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=488236&in_page_id=1879
yes the daily mail, but have a look...
all shapes and sizes...
i do NOT think transwomen need massive surgery to pass naked... i sure as hell know ive passed in a sarong and bikini top for a hawian theme party...
Stop watching american teen movies, and beliving all 16yo girls are curvatious, busty, mid 20s looking :P
Sarah yeah, your right, the toilet... so when post op, sure! id say its entire... if you pass physically, yep, your living the life of your true gender... heck, i heard some natal women stick tubular objects in thier vaginas regularly too!
R :police:
Quote from: Berliegh on December 22, 2007, 12:30:44 AMThere are some exceptions like Transsexuals who started hormones at 12 before puberty who's development could alter the pelvis but this is quite rare..
Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. A male pelvis already has it's distict shape by age 12. Because they start earlier those transitioners get a much better HRT response (in general) and that means more body fat in the right places. So if you x-ray a pelvis of someone that transitioned young, you can still tell their birth gender. I know because that's my job-taking the pictures.
Posted on: December 22, 2007, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: Keira on December 22, 2007, 02:17:20 AM
Berleigh, most women in the street have about 0.8 WHR ratio, yeah, they've got bigger hips, but they've also got a bigger waist, so in fact they're less curvy than me since I've got a 0.71 WHR.
Must be nice to be so thin. I'm in my mid 40's and many women lose that wonderful ratio you mentioned once they've had a couple children and their bodies metabolism slows down.
0.8 is a beauty ideal and nothing more.
Its not just a beauty ideal. Good grief. A women with higher than 0.9 starts to have health problems, because of visceral fat. They actually found that WHR is a better indicator of health
problems than BMI. The ideal for a women is 0.8 for health reason, not esthetic reason.
That it is more attractive is just an added bonus.
BTW, I'm 40 and I've been within 10 pounds of 175, all my life. Now, I'm 155,
with a minimum diet change and slightly more activity in one year. You'll
probably find me a bitch for saying that, but most TS and GG that have excess
weight is because of the wrong diet and exercise. I'm CERTAIn that
if they actually change how and what they eat and exercise they will lose weight
and look AND FEEL better.
I'm not even talking becoming hyper thin, coming back to a WHR=0.8 and
a BMI lower than 25 doesn't mean your super thin. You may be 10-15 pounds above
the ideal weight, but still your within the healthy range.
Since many women don't have children, or a small number not sure you can
really blame that for gaining weight. After menopause, women tend
to gain weight in closer to male pattern because of declining estrogen
values (which directs fat to the hips/buttocks area before that).
But, its inactivity and bad diet over a long period of time,
at any age which leads to being overweight.
Fat is not gained in one event like pregnancy. Most women come back within 5 pounds of their
pre pregnancy weight within one year. Its cumulative neglect which has led women
to edge closer and closer to 0.9. Once you've got visceral middle fat, it messes up
fat distribution even more and you gain mostly in the middle UNLESS you exercise.
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 06:09:52 AM
berleigh, you have an idealised view of natal women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=488236&in_page_id=1879
yes the daily mail, but have a look...
all shapes and sizes...
i do NOT think transwomen need massive surgery to pass naked... i sure as hell know ive passed in a sarong and bikini top for a hawian theme party...
Stop watching american teen movies, and beliving all 16yo girls are curvatious, busty, mid 20s looking :P
Sarah yeah, your right, the toilet... so when post op, sure! id say its entire... if you pass physically, yep, your living the life of your true gender... heck, i heard some natal women stick tubular objects in thier vaginas regularly too!
R :police:
I thought the pics on the link summed it up. All of them no matter what size had hips and went in at the waist. I don't have hips and I don't go in at the waist.
.......I also object to the dreadful ' transwomen' termiinology as I'm not an alien or a freak.
The whole object of a transition is to transition from a man to a woman, not a man to a transwomen......
who started that awful term?
the cornet didnt...
although im the oposite, i do go out, and in again....
and marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male. a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...
R :police:
Quote from: Marlene on December 22, 2007, 06:48:48 AM
Hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. A male pelvis already has it's distict shape by age 12. Because they start earlier those transitioners get a much better HRT response (in general) and that means more body fat in the right places. So if you x-ray a pelvis of someone that transitioned young, you can still tell their birth gender. I know because that's my job-taking the pictures.
I think there's a fairly big crossover, I definitely don't have stereotypically male looking hips and I don't think my frame is *that* unusual... (http://www.arafel.org.uk/~mandel/Image044.jpg fwiw (and yeah my hair was silly and too short back then)). If you get on HRT in your late teens your hips will widen a fair bit won't they?
Quote from: Berliegh on December 22, 2007, 07:07:52 AM
.......I also object to the dreadful ' transwomen' termiinology as I'm not an alien or a freak.
The whole object of a transition is to transition from a man to a woman, not a man to a transwomen......
who started that awful term?
I don't know who was the first to use the term, but the way I understand it, it simply means that the person identifies as a woman or man with a transsexual history. Nothing alien or freakish intended. But if you don't like it, don't use it.
y2g
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 07:27:01 AM
the cornet didnt...
although im the oposite, i do go out, and in again....
and marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male. a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...
R :police:
Another problem I have is clothing sizes. I'm a 16 on the top and 12 on the bottom, so if I want to buy a skirt suit and but a 12, the top will be too tight and vice versa...
Genetic women are bigger on the bottom than the top and the triangle shape is the opposite to up a man.....my shape is like a man, bigger on the top than the bottom..
Posted on: December 22, 2007, 08:13:03 AM
Quote from: Andra on December 22, 2007, 07:54:25 AM
I think there's a fairly big crossover, I definitely don't have stereotypically male looking hips and I don't think my frame is *that* unusual... (http://www.arafel.org.uk/~mandel/Image044.jpg fwiw (and yeah my hair was silly and too short back then)). If you get on HRT in your late teens your hips will widen a fair bit won't they?
Wow...I've never seen anything like that before. You have got really good fat distribution from the look of the photograph......
im rather fat :( 14-16 bottom, 12-14 top :(
i actually have trouble with bdus atm, large are too big, and medium fit lenghtwise, but are tight in the bum and hips... :( and small shirts fit fine >< im a weirdass shape ><
R :police:
Funny that this thread has turned into a discussion about concerns people have as to how they are gendered.
I would have thought that not having a wang would be pretty convincing unless you're a complete man-->-bleeped-<-.
Most people don't give other naked peeps in changing rooms that much scrutiny.
I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly. (I like that terminology better BTW "gendered correctly") "Passing" implies deception.
The word "passing" also implies some kind of bar that needs to be achieved that may or may not be realistic. The term needs to be retired.
Agreed
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 22, 2007, 09:15:01 AM
I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly. (I like that terminology better BTW "gendered correctly") "Passing" implies deception.
The word "passing" also implies some kind of bar that needs to be achieved that may or may not be realistic. The term needs to be retired.
Agreed. Although I also admit that "gendered correctly" is much bulkier. *smile*
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 07:27:01 AMand marlene: you, my friend, are wrong. starting hrt before puberty WILL effect hip growth. if it possible to see small pelvic boadening at 19-20, then its entirely possible pre puberty. i went up 2 inches in the hip, and it was all bone...im 36 30 37... tell me thats male. a lot of other younger m2fs get normal female profiles... hrt pre puberty = pretty much indestinguishable... take a look around some... if you think all m2fs have male profiles, youve not seen much evidence...
You can believe whatever you like, but medically it's impossible. Your pelvis is still male shaped. Sorry to burst your, and everybody else who believes this, bubble. I guess you won't believe it unless I take an x-ray of your pelvis? It's all soft tissue hon, not bone. It's a common myth, one that people are desperate to believe. I'm a medical professional. I take x-rays. I tell you that male and female pelvi are already differentiated by age 12 and you, who have no access to such technology and images, tell me I'm wrong. Who's deluding themselves here?
Also, how many people actually start HRT
before puberty? Almost none. Yeah there are some, but very, very few. You're really reaching here. This is a lack of self-acceptance. You have a male pelvis. No if, ands or but(t)s about it!
A female pelvis is shorter and wider than a male pelvis. The Ala (wings) of the female pelvis appear flatter when seen from the front. The pelvic opening is of a totally different shape. The shape of the pubic arch it totally different. The shape of the ischial tuberosities (what you sit on) are of different as well; female ones (the obturator foramen) are more elongated. The pevic tilt is different as well. A female pelvis is tilted more forward superiorly by about 10 degrees. Need I go on? And all these difference are
NOT altered by hormones.
Hormones do lots of wonderful things, but they do NOT alter bone structure. It is a trans myth.
I don't have a dog in this hunt (the pelvic bone controversy) but methinks it's bad form to tell another member, especially when people come here for support, "you are wrong."
If we agree to disagree, fine but let's not be disagreeable.
Here's a bit from Anne Lawrence's Second Type site:
QuoteHowever, while hormones play an important role in post-pubertal body shape, it's thought that the male "Y" chromosome is mainly responsible for skeletal growth. As a trans-girl is genetically "XY" she will thus still experience some a degree of skeletal masculinisation, even if she commences female hormone treatment at 11 or 12.
She recommends starting hormones at 9! And still they will only have "slight benefit" to the pelvis.
Rachael, even if the slight benefit broadened your pelvis it will still have a distinctive male shape. That can't be changed. I could prove this with an x-ray.
This is my last post on this matter.
edit: Since almost everybody starts hormones much later than 12 it can be assumed that any hip widening they get (I got some too) is from what is commonly called "fat redistribution".
Also, archaeologists can easily determine the sex of a skeleton if they have skull or pelvic bones. It gets much more difficult with other bones. And forensic experts can use DNA to determine sex with most bones.
Since antropologues or forensic experts
cannot say 100% for sure when they dig out bones
that a squeleton is male or female.
There is some overlap in squeletal structure pre-puberty and even post puberty.
If there was no overlap, then their job would be very very easy.
I'll dig up the references and try to post it.
not having a wang may get the 'zomg that man has no wang!' comments, its like the topics where someone says those who dont pass should be put ahead of passable girls for grs, simply because they need it more? i say again, how does grs phelp you pass unless your flashing folk to prove it... :P
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 04:09:19 PM
how does grs phelp you pass
R :police:
I guess that is going to be an imponderable for you until you gain the power of the p***y and are comfortable in your own skin. And having a vagina is not the lack of having a "wang." Of course,that is the male construct.
Posted on: December 22, 2007, 09:12:13 PM
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 22, 2007, 09:15:01 AM
I started this thread halfway tongue in cheek but I am convinced now that having the experience of being intimate with men and hanging out with women completely naked and "stealth" does a lot to get past the insecurities all of us have and have had about being gendered correctly.
Yup!
OK, I couldnt really care any less about "passing / not passing" any more.
Its just not something I think about any more. I'm sure I get read as being trans all the time, I used to worry about it a lot but these days I just couldnt care less. I'm so much more confidant with myself than I ever used to be, I'm too busy feeling good about myself to be freaking about about "OMG did that person read me?!?" I need to have SRS for quite a few reasons, but to convince myself that I pass? Yeah right.
Does this make me abnormal?
Megan
Quote from: Berliegh on December 22, 2007, 12:30:44 AM
Quote from: Sarah on December 21, 2007, 11:50:58 PM
I think this topic has been answered already.
But "living" has little to do with being naked.
Do you pay your bills naked?
Shop for groceries naked?
Go to work naked? (not unless you are a stripper or in the adult industry)
So...
Live?
that's true we are mostly dressed......but what about in the summer in a low cut swimsuit?
Berliegh, really, I wear a bikini.
People really don't care. And those who do, get over it.
So,
What do I care?
Quote from: Rachael on December 22, 2007, 08:24:07 AM
im rather fat :( 14-16 bottom, 12-14 top :(
i actually have trouble with bdus atm, large are too big, and medium fit lenghtwise, but are tight in the bum and hips... :( and small shirts fit fine >< im a weirdass shape ><
R :police:
You have a good ratio Rachael and the right way up.....mine is the opposite way round 12-14 bottom and 14-16 top....the wrong way up..
I'm the one it's not working on..
I started with 12 borderline 14 tops -> down to 8 with sleaves, 6, if its sleaveless like tanks.
Lost a hell of a lot of muscle up there and I've got not much fat either.
Down there, started with size 10 pants and skirts and I'm 5-6 in skirts and 6-7 in pants.
So, my top and bottom size are about the same, will probably end being 4 bottom, 4 or 6 top.
If you're WHR in 0.8 range and you're within 2 sizes, it doesn't matter if your size is bigger on top
than bottom. Most models have larger than average shoulders and not very large hips
(but with still a WHR ration of around 0,7). They usually wear larger tops than bottoms.
UK or us sizes Kiera?
as 12 uk, is a us 8...
and your right, skeletons are similar pre puberty, and the development and 'broadening' of the female pelvis is after puberty and during... males just broaden in other places... :P
R :police:
I checked online, a UK 12, is a US 10. 2 size diffs in misses.
So, I'm about mostly 10 UK (sometimes 12) for tops, and 7-9 UK for botoms.
I'm heading toward 6 UK bottom and tops since I've got still back muscles and pectoral to give away.
nuhuh... its 2 sizes different, so uk 12 is us 8.... we go in even numbers...
R :police:
Here also we go in even numbers, except for juniors.
If juniors don't exist, then I'm 6-8 UK in bottoms (since size 7 US is a bit loose) and 10 UK in tops
The equivalency is such.
UK = 4 , 6, 12, 14, 16, 18
EU = 36, 38, 40, 42, 44, 46
US = 6 , 8, 10, 12, 14, 16
Just check it out Rachael
Maybe you were thinking Australian Sizes, there is 4 in difference between US and Aussie sizes (2 with UK).
my appologies... i had this debate on an irc once and i swore i found an online conversion that gave it as 8 us = uk 12... several infact...
oh well, my bad.. your right *looks shifty*
R :police:
Posted on: December 23, 2007, 08:58:02 AM
Quote from: Rachael on December 23, 2007, 08:58:02 AM
my appologies... i had this debate on an irc once and i swore i found an online conversion that gave it as 8 us = uk 12... several infact...
oh well, my bad.. your right *looks shifty*
although according to my teeshirt im wearing atm, and your size chart, im a uk 12! (its a german h&m tee)
R :police:
UK size = US size +4
Back in the 50's it was +2 but american clothes manufacturers have increased sizing more than UK ones have due to americans being lardier.
ah win... so i wasnt wrong! :D
cheers maud....
its funny, there was a radio article (Radio 4 bbc) on the other day, about an american guy who wrote a book about how american women take more care of themselves, and are more attractive, and thinner than british women... lulz.... (he got eaten alive on womens hour)
R :police:
God, folks just checks the 2000 sites who have the +2 sizing and stop talkling direct from memory.
Standard regulatory sizing is STILL +2.
Stores and manufacturers have their own sizing which is all over the map.
By this same token, I could say that vanity sizing which is more prominent in the US means
that US and UK sizing is about the same!!! So there. jeezz.
Quote from: Keira on December 22, 2007, 03:59:03 PMSince antropologues or forensic experts
cannot say 100% for sure when they dig out bones
that a squeleton is male or female.
There is some overlap in squeletal structure pre-puberty and even post puberty.
If there was no overlap, then their job would be very very easy.
I'll dig up the references and try to post it.
On a message board somewhere, I once noticed a transphobe needling a ->-bleeped-<- in a debate... that in the future when anthropologists dig up her skeleton, they'll see a male skeleton and decide they've found a man, therefore in the long run her transition is all for naught... or some absurd point like that...
Being a skeleton is the ultimate naked...
im SO confused... ><
I remember one forensic show, silent witness in the uk, a train crash, and they found a mystery skeleton, a male one, and there was a guys wife missing too, an army captain. turned out his wife was m2f, and they identified her in the end from the underwire fused to the male skeletons chest...
so yah, fail & transition if you dont get a new skeleton! lazy ->-bleeped-<-s!
R :police:
Quote from: Keira on December 23, 2007, 06:34:53 PM
God, folks just checks the 2000 sites who have the +2 sizing and stop talkling direct from memory.
Standard regulatory sizing is STILL +2.
Stores and manufacturers have their own sizing which is all over the map.
By this same token, I could say that vanity sizing which is more prominent in the US means
that US and UK sizing is about the same!!! So there. jeezz.
Err, no. Think about this, vanity sizing is the inflation of the size of the garment while the nominal size stays a constant thus as vanity sizing is more popular in the US the disparity in numbering between US and UK sizing is larger.
Practically speaking all my clothing is marked size 12 UK size 8 US, no one uses the tables anymore.
Mawd, the standard says that. I don't know where you pull your info from
but please put some sources. I don't see why I should put mine size ALL online
sizing table says +2.
Vanity sizing is sizing smaller than, so if in the US they vanity size more, which is the case
because people are more overweight, the difference between UK and US size will be even
smaller. than +2.
then go buy your chothes in shops then... :P
R >:D
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 21, 2007, 09:13:13 AM
Is it possible to live in one's target gender without "passing naked?"
I've thought about this a while and to be perfectly honest, I don't think it is.
tbh, yeah, well, id probably agree tbh...
wrong bits? cant live the full life...
although this suggests you want to have sex/ walk around nude...
im not into that nudist crap tbh...
R :angel:
Greetings Everyone....
I think this a great topic and a most interesting thread;
Is it possible to live in one's target gender without "passing naked?"
Well, I personally believe that it is completely possible to pass in one's target gender without passing while naked. In all honesty how often do we actually ever see other's naked? Not too frequently and even in those situations when we are changing clothes, showering, etc. in a public setting...how many people go around completely naked? For example, at the local YMCA I use the woman's changing room and have never been outed or had any problems. I also can't remember ever really seeing anyone completely naked either; those on the way to the showers usually have towels wrapped around them, those primping by the mirror are usually dressed in some form...they don't stand there naked. There may be a brief period when changing panties, but most people aren't looking all that closely anyway...
Like I mentioned, I think it is completely possible to pass without passing while naked, but that's just my two cents.
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
total agreement... all the people who belive the ladies changing room is a big naked frollick watch too many american teen movies...
stalls ladies and gentlemen, stalls...
R :police:
Quotetotal agreement... all the people who belive the ladies changing room is a big naked frollick watch too many american teen movies
LOL there are some who have never been in woman's locker room apparently (or even in America for that matter) or in a sauna with the girls or in bed with a guy for three days and him not questioning that you are anything but a cisgendered woman.
Having a vagina (and a matured WOMAN's body, breasts help too LOL) is a totally different ball game.
QuoteFor example, at the local YMCA I use the woman's changing room and have never been outed or had any problems. I also can't remember ever really seeing anyone completely naked either; those on the way to the showers usually have towels wrapped around them, those primping by the mirror are usually dressed in some form...they don't stand there naked.
Quite surprising, where I go, woman almost always weigh themselves naked. Most woman over 25 don't bother covering up at all and many women do their makeup naked and almost no one covers up in the sauna.
The point is that one's insecurities pass when they know who they are.
no, i havent been in america...
but how can you say i havent used the ladies changing rooms? what are you basing that on?
i use my gym changing room weekly at uni, and have no problems, no, not a sauna, and not in bed with a guy, what has that to do with the price of fish?
R :police:
It doesn't have any thing to do with the price of fish. It has everything to do with knowing who one is and being secure about it. Of course, this is something you will have to experience for yourself someday.
why do you assume that i havent?
i pass perfectly, i live a normal life of a college female, i hold a part time job,, nobody knows my past bar a special few friends and my tutor. i dont pass naked, i know... im pre op, and due to being abandoneded by my parents, and disowned, i wont be able to afford surgery for many years, obviously, this makes you better than me... i concede. you win.
Being comfortable in yourself, is knowing when to back off...
R :police:
QuoteI pass perfectly, i live a normal life of a college female, i hold a part time job,, nobody knows my past bar a special few friends and my tutor.
Then why do you feel you have to convince me?
QuoteI wont be able to afford surgery for many years, obviously, this makes you better than me... i concede. you win.
I posted this thread more or less as a joke, not meaning to strike a nerve. Being post-op doesn't make me better than anyone. But what it does do is give me is the experience of being post-op and knowing what a different experience it is from being pre-op.
yeah, that you pass so much better than preops, because you can get naked and still pass...
way to throw it in our faces love...
for some of us, this is a sore point.
I wont be able to get surgery on the NHS till im in my mid 40s, yeah, 20 years from now.
private? when i can save that much, probably the same time, so yeah, i wont ever pass as well as you for many many years.
some joke
R :police:
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 30, 2007, 04:05:52 PM
I posted this thread more or less as a joke, not meaning to strike a nerve. Being post-op doesn't make me better than anyone. But what it does do is give me is the experience of being post-op and knowing what a different experience it is from being pre-op.
And hopefully sometime soon I'll experience those difference...that is all I have ever wanted...shooting for end of 08 if I can swing the money...
Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre
Let's all try to get along :)
Steph
Quote from: Keira on December 25, 2007, 03:16:35 AM
Mawd, the standard says that. I don't know where you pull your info from
but please put some sources. I don't see why I should put mine size ALL online
sizing table says +2.
Vanity sizing is sizing smaller than, so if in the US they vanity size more, which is the case
because people are more overweight, the difference between UK and US size will be even
smaller. than +2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_sizing
You are wrong.
What I'm saying is that most clothes manufacturers do not obey the tables and that in my rather extensive experience US 8 = UK 12, I know ->-bleeped-<-s have a tendency to not live in the real world but I do, internet tables are irrelevant and outdated relics of the 60's.
quite, buying clothes from these things called 'shops' 'trying them on' can show the truth, not the internet, where it says i should wear a 42B bra.... with a 36 underbust.... yeah....
R :police: