Poll
Question:
Do you sometimes fear it's all a load of nonsense?
Option 1: I've never been convinced.
votes: 7
Option 2: Ocassionally
votes: 10
Option 3: Sometimes
votes: 3
Option 4: Often
votes: 9
Option 5: I've never been convinced.
votes: 2
Was wondering if people ever felt that this whole androgyne/gender queer/ Non binary gender variant (Whatever words you wish to bring to the table) thing is just a load of rubbish. That any talk of non binary types is just allowing the delusions of failed men, women and transsexuals, that it's all just a bit of a pleasant fiction.
Sometimes I do, and I made a vidyo about it too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZTEw_7jhs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZTEw_7jhs)
I said "ocasionally", probably with a different spin to what you intended though. I don't doubt that the whole 'non-binary' thing is real but I sometimes doubt my own feelings. "What If I am not transgendered? What if I have a hormone imbalance or something similar which could be corrected? What if everyone feels like I do and I'm just missing something they aren't?"
I have too much pain for it to be just a pleasant fiction. It does not make it easier for me identifying as androgyne, though it definitly means I'm not both in pain and confused.
and what was your answer to the poll, ginger?
sometimes
and then of course a lot of the times I am thinking about other things, how to get home, where to find the thing that i lost this time, whether i prefer flipron's first album or second, whether i can squeeze a tea party round a friends and a little bit of writing into the alotted time...
and would it be so bad if it were rubbish? if you were just a 'failed male' as you put it?
it might've once. but i'm beginning to not really give a castlemaine, i think hence the thoughts on the subject, the little seismic shift that happens when you move from one way to another.
well must give you props for exploring this. the odd trait of the truly confident and self loving is that we don't fear vulnerability or exposure or being wrong. we just 'are'.
Wow, you were really uncomfortable talking about that, weren't you. The camera is not going to judge you.
Also, position yourself facing the light source. This vid was kinda shadowey
/photographer
*I voted 'occasionaly'. It's always a definite unless I'm upset about gender-reated things.
Quote from: nathan on October 27, 2008, 07:58:10 PM
Wow, you were really uncomfortable talking about that, weren't you. The camera is not going to judge you.
Also, position yourself facing the light source. This vid was kinda shadowey
/photographer
give hir a break. took a lot of guts for hir to do this and sie did fine. needn't be silver screen quality. i rather like the feel of a shadowy, homey chat in hir living room.
Relax, Nero. I just wanted to give Pica a bit of advice. I liked the vid, it was very...vulnerable
Good stuff Pica!
I've experienced plenty of self doubt about who I am. I long ago ceased to care about any labels, they all feel like boxes. Androgyne is a word, it has sometimes been a reasonable way to describe how I feel about my gender, and has been a way to connect with other people who might feel somewhat similarly. M2F transgender, non-op, non-hrt has also described it. Just plain queer can work too.
Ultimately, all that really matters is to figure out what makes me happy. If I someday decide to do HRT I'll do it. I won't be any different a person than I am now. I've walked through this life as male, I've walked through life as a woman identified person, I've walked through life as not male. Mostly, I'm just Zythyra, whatever this might be.
Z
I think you really struck it right at the end pica. It doesn't really matter if its a load or not, it makes you happy.
I think though that at time moments of self doubt can be beneficial. It makes you reexamine what you hold true to yourself, and I find at those times you may look at things a little differently. Kinda like looking at a busy painting, like Seurat's Sunday Afternoon On The Island Of Grand Jatte. Even if it hangs in your home and you look at it every day, live with it, sooner or later you're going to see something different in it.
I suppose in that regards once I found the term to describe what I felt, I never really had the doubt that its right. I've known from an early age that I wasn't like other boys, and gender-biased issues confused me. I remember I was in Beavers (canadian equivalent of boy scouts) when I was little and my sister got to come with us on camping trips, and when if came time for her to go to her Brownies camp came I didn't get to. My mom said that I might "see things I'm not suppose to" and the like, but that never seemed to wash with me. Further still in my teens while going through my biggest upheavals I came to recognize even more my feminine self and embrace it. In that time I learned what androgyne was and that there were others like me, and the pieces just fit.
Never know though. Perhaps I need to look a little more at my own painting =)
i've only got one lightsource, and it is shoddy. Gonna be a very dim winter.
for me I'm mostly sure of who I am when I'm told by profecionals that I'm not alowed to be both or have transexuals give feed back that excludes the alowance of non binary trans people.these are the only times that I quetion the vadility of it all after a good cry I decide they are just too small minded & I'm ok about being weird again although I'd give anything to meet someone going through the same issues as me IRL but I think I may be the only non binary in village / City & maybe state
Quote from: 6thsomatic on October 27, 2008, 10:39:45 PM
Seurat's Sunday Afternoon On The Island Of Grand Jatte.
I've the sketches and other versions of this painting :) That whole pointalism thing, very accurate way of looking and personality, cos in the greens you get bright red and orange spots - it's contradiction and it makes sense.
Where did you get that jingle from at the beginning of your videos? I'm certain I've heard it before and it's driving me insane trying to work out where.
With regard to the subject matter, something strikes me as rather interesting. You say that when you go with the way you feel rather than what you think, it makes you happy. That leads to one question:
Why?
I struggle at times to understand where this doubt comes from, with male identified people, female identified people, androgyne identified people, and any other variation inbetween. When you say it could all be rubbish... by whose definition? And is that definition more important than your own?
The key thing, surely, is identity. And if it is, at the very least, a psychological construct... doesn't that in itself make it real? Isn't personal reality just perception influenced by internal mechanics and thought processes?
You say that there's a feeling that this is you. Is that not enough to make your identity real, at least in terms of you as an individual?
Quote from: Leiandra on October 28, 2008, 10:50:13 AM
You say that there's a feeling that this is you. Is that not enough to make your identity real, at least in terms of you as an individual?
It's enough to make it real to me as an individual, but to me as a social beast, maybe not. Which is why I'm happy and content when I lay my head on the people, but not always when I come through the door.
The jingle is from a cd i have of library music, it's the beginning of a 30 second version of the theme. I often collect library and copywrite free music for a few pence at little out of the way record stores and things. It's probably been used as a radio bed, or in a cheap advert or something.
Ah, I think I understand. But you're the only person who can tell you who you are, and if it's real enough to you as an individual then social constraints can, at the very worst, only make you throw a temporary veil over what you know to be true... they can never make it disappear.
Identity, particularly gender based identity, isn't like Phantasia in 'The Neverending Story'... it doesn't disappear because other people don't believe in it. :) And how many people do you suppose are struggling to come to terms with their own sense of identity but choose not to say anything out of a desire to conform to 'society'? We are a collective of individuals.
You're the one who you look at in the mirror, no-one else, so that is the only person whose opinion should matter to you. And if you feel instinctively and with your entire being that you are androgyne, male, or female, then that's the last word as far as I'm concerned.
Temet Nosce - Know Thyself. :)
I can see what your saying Leiandra, but I think it is perfectly ok to have fears. It is a little rude trying to tell people what they should be feeling, it sounds like you are saying it is wrong to feel doubt.
The doubt for me comes from being bombarded with the message that there are only two genders and that people who are born male are males and people that are born female are women. There are scientists telling me I have a mental illness, other people saying it is just a phase that everyone goes through, peers not believing me, and I am legaly not recognised. I can't see why you wouldn't have at least some doubt in your mind.
I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. I didn't mean to be rude. :-\
All I was trying to say was I hope that you, and everyone, can look inside yourself and let what you see there be your guiding light.
I meant no offence. You have as much right to feel the way you do as anyone else.
Quote from: Leiandra on October 28, 2008, 02:01:00 PM
. And if you feel instinctively and with your entire being that you are androgyne, male, or female, then that's the last word as far as I'm concerned.
Temet Nosce - Know Thyself. :)
I'm english, i've grown up in a society saturated in compromise. I don't think I know how to be sure about anything with my entire being. I do know myself pretty well (what with it being a lifelong obsession and all) and what i know very well, is that i distrust anything that doesn't have layers of grey and doubt.....
...And I thought after the confident (arrogant?) videos, it was time to be honest about doubts.
Posted on: October 28, 2008, 02:36:28 pm
Oh, and no worry Leiandra, you were just saying as you saw, as we all do.
Okay. :)
But, for what it's worth...
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:36:28 PM
I'm english, i've grown up in a society saturated in compromise.
Same here. I'm English, too.
i've always been surrounded by doubt then, haven't you?
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:40:12 PM
Oh, and no worry Leiandra, you were just saying as you saw, as we all do.
Don't mind me either Leiandra, I've been a bit snappy lately on account of not enough estrogen in the system. I just chose to read into it a certain way and I didn't have to.
Damn it, on top of everything I have to go to a crappy meeting at work right now
Chow. ;)
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:44:49 PM
i've always been surrounded by doubt then, haven't you?
Yeah, but as far as identity is concerned, I don't let it bother me. People's opinions about me and who I am are based more on their own lives and how that colours their perception of the world. Criticism says more about the critic than the criticised. If they want to believe something, let them. It doesn't matter. It doesn't change who I am.
But then I'm more introspective than your average bear and go largely on intuition and instinct, emotion over analysis. If I allowed the opinions of other people to colour my judgement about who I am, I'd be in a mental hospital by now. :-\ Seriously.
Quote from: Nicky on October 28, 2008, 02:50:25 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:40:12 PM
Oh, and no worry Leiandra, you were just saying as you saw, as we all do.
Don't mind me either Leiandra, I've been a bit snappy lately on account of not enough estrogen in the system. I just chose to read into it a certain way and I didn't have to.
Damn it, on top of everything I have to go to a crappy meeting at work right now
Chow. ;)
*big squeezy hug*
But you are right, honey, I shouldn't assume that everyone else is the same, and thinks the same as me. For that I am sorry.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:40:12 PM
...And I thought after the confident (arrogant?) videos, it was time to be honest about doubts.
Well, you do put on airs. ;)
Posted on: October 28, 2008, 04:02:34 pm
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 01:47:30 PM
Quote from: Leiandra on October 28, 2008, 10:50:13 AM
You say that there's a feeling that this is you. Is that not enough to make your identity real, at least in terms of you as an individual?
It's enough to make it real to me as an individual, but to me as a social beast, maybe not. Which is why I'm happy and content when I lay my head on the people, but not always when I come through the door.
A reason many of us transition. We need the world to see our identity.
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 28, 2008, 02:40:12 PM
Quote from: Leiandra on October 28, 2008, 02:01:00 PM
. And if you feel instinctively and with your entire being that you are androgyne, male, or female, then that's the last word as far as I'm concerned.
Temet Nosce - Know Thyself. :)
I'm english, i've grown up in a society saturated in compromise. I don't think I know how to be sure about anything with my entire being. I do know myself pretty well (what with it being a lifelong obsession and all) and what i know very well, is that i distrust anything that doesn't have layers of grey and doubt.....
...And I thought after the confident (arrogant?) videos, it was time to be honest about doubts.
Posted on: October 28, 2008, 02:36:28 pm
Oh, and no worry Leiandra, you were just saying as you saw, as we all do.
Grey is good. Your coming clean with this has made you more real and earned you some respect.
I'd raise a toast but I don't drink anymore.
I answered 'never', mostly because once I understand something, it becomes truth to me...I'm very decisive (and hard-headed...heh). So even if I did have some sort of hormonal imbalance or something that caused my identity, it's still my identity. And I wouldn't do anything to change it because I like who I am. Even on days when I do feel particularly female (every now and again it happens...stupid hormones), I know that I'll go back to my normal self in a short time.
So even if I have some doubt, I still know, I guess is what I'm trying to say. :)
not convinced.
I'm late to the party, but I don't see being androgyne as "bollocks" or "rubbish", etc.
There is clearly "something" going on here. We are here for a reason.
Quote from: riven_one on November 03, 2008, 10:25:34 PM
I'm late to the party, but I don't see being androgyne as "bollocks"
No -- although some of us would like to get rid of them, and others would like to have a pair. But you are right, the point of being androgyne is to not make them too big a deal. ;)
Quote from: riven_one on November 03, 2008, 10:25:34 PM
There is clearly "something" going on here. We are here for a reason.
If nothing else, for diversity. That's usually a good thing, whether biological, cultural or otherwise. The way I see it, one of the cool paradoxes about us is the way we challenge the gender binary and point out some of its limitations, but at the same time also define ourselves in relation to it. Another definite plus is the ability of many of us to joke about things that are serious and fundamental to one's identity.
Nfr
Quote from: Nicky on November 03, 2008, 08:56:46 PM
Quote from: Rebis on October 31, 2008, 09:36:55 PM
not convinced.
of ???
I'm not convinced it's all a load of nonsense.
Posted on: November 04, 2008, 10:49:52 am
Quote from: riven_one on November 03, 2008, 10:25:34 PM
I'm late to the party, but I don't see being androgyne as "bollocks" or "rubbish", etc.
There is clearly "something" going on here. We are here for a reason.
Oh. Is that what this is all about? I thought we were discussing life in general.
I suck. I just went back and read the initial post. I must have forgotten it as I was reading. I'm not always in the room with myself.
Posted on: November 04, 2008, 10:51:01 am
Quote from: Pica Pica on October 27, 2008, 06:45:14 PM
Was wondering if people ever felt that this whole androgyne/gender queer/ Non binary gender variant (Whatever words you wish to bring to the table) thing is just a load of rubbish. That any talk of non binary types is just allowing the delusions of failed men, women and transsexuals, that it's all just a bit of a pleasant fiction.
I considered that it might be rubbish but then I dropped that consideration because it doesn't leave room for why my mind stills yearns for me to be physically female.
I'm not sure a binary type goes around yearning to be the opposite sex half or most of the time. Maybe they might stop to imagine it one time, but having it permanently stamped into the very fiber of your being is definitely something else.
As for the reason we exist, I like to think that it's because nature wants to do away with the binary. The binary is just some freakish evolutionary screw-up.
Yes, that's right. I am now saying that the nonbinaries are natural and the binaries are not. Those freaks!
Quote from: Rebis on November 04, 2008, 10:00:09 AM
I considered that it might be rubbish but then I dropped that consideration because it doesn't leave room for why my mind stills yearns for me to be physically female.
I'm not sure a binary type goes around yearning to be the opposite sex half or most of the time. Maybe they might stop to imagine it one time, but having it permanently stamped into the very fiber of your being is definitely something else.
It's amazing, they don't seem to think about it much at all. So we androgynes have to think about gender 24/7 to keep a decent average ::)
Quote
As for the reason we exist, I like to think that it's because nature wants to do away with the binary. The binary is just some freakish evolutionary screw-up.
Yes, that's right. I am now saying that the nonbinaries are natural and the binaries are not. Those freaks!
You rock Reebs!
Z
Androgyne power!
One day, the binaries will serve us as the slaves they are meant to be - removing those annoying foil wrappers off of Hershey kisses.
Can I put mine to work shelling the M&Ms before I eat them?
I've had to watch this twice before voting (I chose "Sometimes"), then read all the comments before posting my own reply.
Quote from: Nero
and would it be so bad if it were rubbish? if you were just a 'failed male' as you put it?
When I was in school, the fact that I was a 'failed male' (lousy at sports, physically weak, non-competitive, passive) caused me great distress. My schoolmates and father made it clear that this was not acceptable in a male.
These days, I don't think it's so bad that I'm a so-called failed male. I'm failed in the eyes of others. But who cares? It's my eyes in this regard that's really important. Am I sucessful to my own mind?
Nero's right, Pica, that you deserve props for this. It takes courage to admit that one has fears and doubts.
Quote from: Zythyra
I've experienced plenty of self doubt about who I am.
There are time when it seems that self-doubt is my default opinion of myself. As Echo and the Bunnymen said in the song
Back of Love:
Self doubt and selfism
Were the cheapest things I ever boughtI often feel both selfish and like I have no self-esteem.
Quote from: 6thsomatic
I think you really struck it right at the end pica. It doesn't really matter if its a load or not, it makes you happy.
I agree; that sums the whole thing up, it seems. My Halloween costume this year was to simply dress in my wife's clothes with a stuffed bra and a wig. It was god-awful. But, there was something joyous about going out and about cross-dressed, no matter how hideously. My wife commented that in the days leading up to Halloween, I'd been happier than she'd seen me in a while.
Why, as Leiandra, asks? Good question. I'm not entirely sure why. But, there was something about it that made me happy. And that's what matters.
Quote from: Leiandra
When you say it could all be rubbish... by whose definition? And is that definition more important than your own?
Precisely! It's my mind and body. Who's to say how I present that to the world is rubbish? But, that doesn't change the nagging voice that sill asks,
but what if they're right?
Quote from: Nicky
The doubt for me comes from being bombarded with the message that there are only two genders and that people who are born male are males and people that are born female are women.
This is a good point. There are those who would demand that androgynes choose one or the other and make a committment to that gender. The same if often said of bisexuals, too. With so much negativity levelled at the non-binaries, it's hard for me to not have self-doubt from time to time.
Quote from: Nero
A reason many of us transition. We need the world to see our identity.
But how does an androgyne transition? On the one hand, my "transition" would entail me looking completely gender-ambiguous on the outside while keeping my current physiology (minus the body-carpet, of course). But on the other hand, I also like the gender-fluid idea of seeming at sometimes male, at sometimes female, and at sometimes "something in between."
Quote from: riven_one
I'm late to the party, but I don't see being androgyne as "bollocks" or "rubbish", etc.
There is clearly "something" going on here. We are here for a reason.
This really seems to help sum it up, too.
Quote from: tekla on November 04, 2008, 11:11:08 AM
Can I put mine to work shelling the M&Ms before I eat them?
excellent concept. Keep them coming. We want to be prepared with our list of demeaning tasks.
I'm glad you want the M&Ms shelled
before you eat them.
hey, pica pica. i think you are an awesome individual. you have real good points in your video about doubt. i think you realy hit the nail on the head about being a failed man. i am also a "failed man", non competitive, passive, not much into sports, or cars, ect. and not only do men dislike that about me, but i think women are very put off by it too. i know that i dont feel womanly or manly but i know that i was born with a penis. to me the whole transgender thing feels a bit foreign to me cuz ive never felt like i needed to be one or the other, although i do take estrogen for sexual reasons.
Quote from: Rebis on November 04, 2008, 04:36:40 PM
Quote from: tekla on November 04, 2008, 11:11:08 AM
Can I put mine to work shelling the M&Ms before I eat them?
excellent concept. Keep them coming. We want to be prepared with our list of demeaning tasks.
I'm glad you want the M&Ms shelled before you eat them.
After would be both disgusting and fascinating. Let's see if we can't get that done! I want binaries to do my cleaning. And perhaps feed me grapes as I lounge on a lovely sofa like thing with a couple of them fanning me...too much?
Quote from: Jaimey on November 05, 2008, 05:16:51 PM
And perhaps feed me grapes as I lounge on a lovely sofa like thing with a couple of them fanning me...too much?
I'll volunteer for that one. :-*
Quote from: Nero on November 05, 2008, 05:21:42 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on November 05, 2008, 05:16:51 PM
And perhaps feed me grapes as I lounge on a lovely sofa like thing with a couple of them fanning me...too much?
I'll volunteer for that one. :-*
:icon_eyebrow:
Break it up you two. Don't make me get the hose. ::)
Quote from: Rebis on November 05, 2008, 06:27:34 PM
Break it up you two. Don't make me get the hose. ::)
For the wet tshirt contest? ...I'm sorry. I have a filthy, filthy mind.
We'll let you join in too! :-*
Fine with me.
By the way, you're damned cute. :)
have to agree with you on that. *still waiting for costume pics*
are we all getting costume pics, or is this a private thing you two got going?
thirding with the cute.
Thanks for that vid, Pica, and for starting this topic.
I put "often." I almost put "never been convinced," but I do have the odd flash of certainty in all the questioning, interrogting, and doubt.
I'm afraid of a lot of things. Partly like Pica I fear that I'm simply a faliure in my assigned gender: I don't exactly present as androg, but I've never been able to conform effectively to the socially accepted female role as defined by the mainstream. Outside of that mainstream, I've been informed ad nauseum that I have a "male" way of thinking and discoursing, and that I have access to male privige therefore. As near as I can work out, having a "male" way of thinking revers to the fact that I value positions backed up from evidence and experience over Very Strong Feelings backed up by Germane Greer quotes. But then the same kinds of people who have been telling me, for years, that I'm not a proper woman and am too male etc. will also tell me that I'm not an androgyne, that such a creature does not exist. So I'm not good enough to be a Woman, but I'm not allowed to be 3rd either...
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk. My nightmare is existing as something that the cis world can grab onto as ammo against trans experience. I fear androgynes being held up by more conservative types as freakish warnings against messing with gender roles; or else that our nonbinary gender experience will be seized on and used to dismiss the more polarised gender experience of transmen and transwomen. The idea that just by existing I might inadvertantly undermine the rights of transpeople. That's what really scares me and makes me want to evaporate.
Don't worry about messing up anybody's rights. Everybody's rights start with each individual's rights. If anyone complains to you, then they are just insecure about themselves.
Probably
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 06, 2008, 06:47:39 AM
Thanks for that vid, Pica, and for starting this topic.
I put "often." I almost put "never been convinced," but I do have the odd flash of certainty in all the questioning, interrogting, and doubt.
I'm afraid of a lot of things. Partly like Pica I fear that I'm simply a faliure in my assigned gender: I don't exactly present as androg, but I've never been able to conform effectively to the socially accepted female role as defined by the mainstream. Outside of that mainstream, I've been informed ad nauseum that I have a "male" way of thinking and discoursing, and that I have access to male privige therefore. As near as I can work out, having a "male" way of thinking revers to the fact that I value positions backed up from evidence and experience over Very Strong Feelings backed up by Germane Greer quotes. But then the same kinds of people who have been telling me, for years, that I'm not a proper woman and am too male etc. will also tell me that I'm not an androgyne, that such a creature does not exist. So I'm not good enough to be a Woman, but I'm not allowed to be 3rd either...
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk. My nightmare is existing as something that the cis world can grab onto as ammo against trans experience. I fear androgynes being held up by more conservative types as freakish warnings against messing with gender roles; or else that our nonbinary gender experience will be seized on and used to dismiss the more polarised gender experience of transmen and transwomen. The idea that just by existing I might inadvertantly undermine the rights of transpeople. That's what really scares me and makes me want to evaporate.
aww... no, no, NO! don't really have the words right now, just NO sweetie.
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 06, 2008, 06:47:39 AM
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk. My nightmare is existing as something that the cis world can grab onto as ammo against trans experience. I fear androgynes being held up by more conservative types as freakish warnings against messing with gender roles; or else that our nonbinary gender experience will be seized on and used to dismiss the more polarised gender experience of transmen and transwomen. The idea that just by existing I might inadvertantly undermine the rights of transpeople. That's what really scares me and makes me want to evaporate.
This makes sense to me.
I've been told that as a male, specifically as a white male, I have an advantage over non-whites and non-males. It seems to me that the subtext of these messages is that my very existence does indeed interfere with the rights and success of others. It's led me to conclude more than once that I should not have survived past voting age.
So the idea that androgynes muddy the binary gender waters does seem to make sense to me. I am biologically male and therefore I am granted some kind of privelege I don't understand and never asked for. I'm also androgyne, which seems to irk people. It's like I'm sitting on the fence instead of choosing and committing to a side. Likewise for being pansexual and registered as a non-partisan voter: I'm not "choosing" a side and therefore am uncommitted. I don't understand why this is perceived as evil, but apparently that which is polarized binarily is better than that which is not.
Or, so some have tried to convince me.
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 06, 2008, 06:47:39 AM
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk. My nightmare is existing as something that the cis world can grab onto as ammo against trans experience. I fear androgynes being held up by more conservative types as freakish warnings against messing with gender roles; or else that our nonbinary gender experience will be seized on and used to dismiss the more polarised gender experience of transmen and transwomen. The idea that just by existing I might inadvertantly undermine the rights of transpeople. That's what really scares me and makes me want to evaporate.
ANY person on the trans spectrum can be held up as an example of some bigots 'arguments' against trans people. Too gender role conforming, not gender role conforming enough, too binary, not binary, invading feminist space, not being a feminist, people can and do come up with arguments saying that all these (and more) traits are bad. The best defence is for trans people to present to the world as the heterogeneous group that we truly are. As long as none of us present ourselves as the one true way to be trans (or as a superior/better type of trans person) we're stronger together than apart.
Your rights and your need to express yourself are no less valid than anybody else's. Please don't ever think you have to apologise for what you are or hide what you are because of how someone else might use and manipulate the fact of your existence.
(apologies for my wording here if you don't identify as trans)
The less we conform to socially constructed gender roles(which is more apparent more and more every day) and the more we focus on individual rights, we will then find that this trans road is already paved, we only need to face a little adversity. Its inevitable that all this will be wholly acceptable soon anyways.
QuoteQuote from: Rebis on November 05, 2008, 06:37:26 PM
Fine with me.
By the way, you're damned cute. :)
Quote from: Nero on November 05, 2008, 06:41:36 PM
have to agree with you on that. *still waiting for costume pics*
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 06, 2008, 12:38:44 AM
thirding with the cute.
AW!!! You all are SWEET!!! I have one fairly decent pic from Halloween, but it's just my face. One friend took a pic and it is BAD. No one's seeing that one. >:-) I am evil.
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 06, 2008, 06:47:39 AM
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk.
Quite the opposite! (I'm the eternal damn optimist) The more we gather confidence in ourselves and get out there and meet people, cisgendered people especially, the more they will understand that deep down, we're all the same. We want the same things and we deserve the same things. People fear the unknown, so the more 'known' we are, the less there is to fear. ...Well, if you can get them to open their wee little minds.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 06, 2008, 10:03:33 AM
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 06, 2008, 06:47:39 AM
However I'm much less afraid of that mess than I am of somehow acting as an inimical force against the rights of transfolk. My nightmare is existing as something that the cis world can grab onto as ammo against trans experience. I fear androgynes being held up by more conservative types as freakish warnings against messing with gender roles; or else that our nonbinary gender experience will be seized on and used to dismiss the more polarised gender experience of transmen and transwomen. The idea that just by existing I might inadvertantly undermine the rights of transpeople. That's what really scares me and makes me want to evaporate.
I've been told that as a male, specifically as a white male, I have an advantage over non-whites and non-males. It seems to me that the subtext of these messages is that my very existence does indeed interfere with the rights and success of others. It's led me to conclude more than once that I should not have survived past voting age.
I don't have so much difficulty with the idea that I have certain kinds of privilege in society. I'm aware that I have white privilege, for example. I'm aware that I have cis privilege--otherwise I'd find it a whole lot easier to dress and present in ways that suit me, rather than feeling the need to femme down for jobhunting etc. I didn't create that privilege, therefore it is not rational for me to feel guilt over it. Responsibility, yeah, but that's not the same as guilt--guilt is passive, responsibility is constructive. My privileges don't mean that by existing I'm detracting from someone else--they mean that I have a responsibility to interrogate them and do what I can to help level the playing-field. It's not awareness of privilege that makes me feel like I should not
be, but fear of the appropriation of my being by other privileged people.
Do not fear.
Quote from: Rebis on November 07, 2008, 04:08:05 PM
Do not fear.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Quote from: 6thsomatic on November 07, 2008, 04:41:23 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 07, 2008, 04:08:05 PM
Do not fear.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Excellent: your Bene Geneserit training is progressing well.
fear's useful, a survival tool par excellence.
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 08, 2008, 12:49:18 AM
fear's useful, a survival tool par excellence.
a tool you have in spades. :)
I'll give you all something to fear. >:-)
Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 11:13:15 AM
I'll give you all something to fear. >:-)
Threat or promise? XD
Both. >:-) heh heh
All this talk of fear and Bene Gesserit, somebody should have called me! :icon_no:
We were afraid.
I have my winged underpants ready to go and everything :-*
How many people can your underpants carry?
Quote from: Rebis on November 09, 2008, 07:13:18 PM
How many people can your underpants carry?
As many as needed. But they get a bit close and funky with more than 3....
Quote from: Nicky on November 09, 2008, 08:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 09, 2008, 07:13:18 PM
How many people can your underpants carry?
As many as needed. But they get a bit close and funky with more than 3....
I ... really ... don't know what to say ...
come fly with me, let's fly, lets fly away.
Quote from: Nicky on November 09, 2008, 06:58:23 PM
I have my winged underpants ready to go and everything :-*
My kids play this game with movie quotes. Randomly substitute the word "pants" in various situations. As in Darth Vader's line from the first Star Wars movie, "I find your lack of pants disturbing."
Quote from: Nicky on November 09, 2008, 08:01:37 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 09, 2008, 07:13:18 PM
How many people can your underpants carry?
As many as needed. But they get a bit close and funky with more than 3....
Now
that is something to fear! :o :laugh:
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 10, 2008, 10:06:57 AM
Quote from: Nicky on November 09, 2008, 06:58:23 PM
I have my winged underpants ready to go and everything :-*
My kids play this game with movie quotes. Randomly substitute the word "pants" in various situations. As in Darth Vader's line from the first Star Wars movie, "I find your lack of pants disturbing."
That's such a funny idea, lol. ;D
Braveheart:
"They may take our pants, but they'll never take our freeeeeedom!!"LOTR: "
The pants must be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom!"Hahaha. ;D
The Breakfast Club: "Don't stick that in my pants!"
"The pants abide." -The Big Lebowski (had to do a little grammar surgery...)
It's most fun with Star Wars. "I sense a great disturbance in the pants..."
Quote from: Lokaeign on November 10, 2008, 05:16:12 PM
It's most fun with Star Wars. "I sense a great disturbance in the pants..."
Jabba has no time for smugglers who drop their pants at the first sign of an Imperial starship.
I will not conform!!! On with The Big Lebowski!
"Let me explain something to you. I am not Mr. Lebowski. You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Pants. So, that's what you call me. You know, that, or his Pantsness, or Pantser, or El Pantserino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing."
"The word itself makes some men uncomfortable. Pants."
"They call Los Angeles the city of the pants. I didn't find it to be that exactly."
"Nobody calls me Lebowski. You got the wrong guy. I'm the Pants, man."
"I do mind. The Pants minds. This will not stand. This aggression will not stand, man."
After seeing that movie Jaimey I never felt quite like peeing on a rug again...and I cna't remember why.. ???
Funny. I never felt like bathing with rodents again.
Quote from: Rebis on November 10, 2008, 08:44:28 PM
Funny. I never felt like bathing with rodents again.
Yep, bad for the rodents.
Wow, this androgyne thread jack is just like the good old days ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Z
... just like the good old pants?
Nfr
songs are good too...
Gimme some of that old time pants
or alternatively
new pants, new pants...
sweet pants are made of these
anarchy in the pants
i aint gonna live on maggie's pants no more.
Quote from: Zythyra on November 10, 2008, 09:37:25 PM
Wow, this androgyne thread jack is just like the good old days ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Z
You know, it's been a while since we've had a good threadjacking! Ah...smells like mutiny...so nostalgic. *sniff* I'm getting a little choked up... :icon_cry:
:icon_twisted:
Quote from: Zythyra on November 10, 2008, 09:37:25 PM
Wow, this androgyne thread jack is just like the good old days ;) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Z
I'm getting nostalgic. :)
No fear here. Any androgyne thread, taken far enough, will be dutifully jacked.
well what you expect? this is the 'nursery section' of the forums and i'm clearly the lone chaperon. ;) >:-)
We need a chaperon. But one day we will overwhelm you. :laugh:
with kisses and rather gentle pats on the back
we might steal his nose.
you going to nip off my nose, ginger?
Quote from: Nicky on November 11, 2008, 07:14:25 PM
with kisses and rather gentle pats on the back
I'm not so sure Nero likes things to be gentle. >:-)
i'm clearly the lone chaperon
Hey kids, the babysitter is drunk and passed out and left the liquor cabinet open and the keys to the car are on the counter. Let's Party.
:icon_weee:
Wasn't this thread about fear?
Quote from: Rebis on November 12, 2008, 10:27:48 PM
Wasn't this thread about fear?
yes, and kisses and gentle pats, and parties and chaperons and chopping of Nero's nose and getting into some serious pants. They all go together.
What I wouldn't give to get into some serious pants or, to get into some pants - seriously.
Quote from: Nicky on November 13, 2008, 01:15:41 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 12, 2008, 10:27:48 PM
Wasn't this thread about fear?
yes, and kisses and gentle pats, and parties and chaperons and chopping of Nero's nose and getting into some serious pants. They all go together.
This thread jacked and jilled most righteously by the Androgynes at Susan's. Thank you for your pants, er, support.
Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 02:45:35 PM
What I wouldn't give to get into some serious pants or, to get into some pants - seriously.
Nice. :-*
It really isn't that difficult Rebis. Just reach down and pull them up! :eusa_wall:
Quote from: Jaimey on November 13, 2008, 04:57:30 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 02:45:35 PM
What I wouldn't give to get into some serious pants or, to get into some pants - seriously.
Nice. :-*
Thanks. I was actually proud of myself for that one.
Ironically, earlier today I had a thread related disease. I began to fear for a moment, what if we aren't transpeople, but just a bunch of weird people? I got past that one quickly, though. I really wish I had a body that represents my inner confusion.
Nothin wrong with bein weird ^_^
I hope not :)
Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 05:59:39 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on November 13, 2008, 04:57:30 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 02:45:35 PM
What I wouldn't give to get into some serious pants or, to get into some pants - seriously.
Nice. :-*
Thanks. I was actually proud of myself for that one.
Ironically, earlier today I had a thread related disease. I began to fear for a moment, what if we aren't transpeople, but just a bunch of weird people? I got past that one quickly, though. I really wish I had a body that represents my inner confusion.
i get that one a lot
Why is it a problem though Pica?
If we're weird, we're weird. I implore someone to define normal to me, because in the most average of things can be the most extraordinarily bizarre. In fact if someone seems normal, chances are they're hiding something -_^
I can appreciate those who are seeking normalcy, especially those transitioning between genders as it brings them such solace. However for myself I know that I will never be normal and have accepted this fact long ago, and even thrive through it. I think fantastic things can be born when you live outside the boundaries of whats accepted.
Quote from: 6thsomatic on November 13, 2008, 09:52:36 PM
Why is it a problem though Pica?
If we're weird, we're weird. I implore someone to define normal to me, because in the most average of things can be the most extraordinarily bizarre. In fact if someone seems normal, chances are they're hiding something -_^
I can appreciate those who are seeking normalcy, especially those transitioning between genders as it brings them such solace. However for myself I know that I will never be normal and have accepted this fact long ago, and even thrive through it. I think fantastic things can be born when you live outside the boundaries of whats accepted.
you're preaching to the choir here. pica is the single most
abnormal person i've ever had the pleasure to meet. :laugh:
Quote from: Nero on November 13, 2008, 10:08:55 PM
you're preaching to the choir here. pica is the single most abnormal person i've ever had the pleasure to meet. :laugh:
From you, Nero, that is high praise indeed.
Somehow I think we might be both trans and weird.
Im cool with that =D
Its like mixing awesome with awesome!
calm down you transweirdos. :police:
Quote from: Rebis on November 14, 2008, 07:19:17 PM
calm down you transweirdos. :police:
if that's not the pot calling the kettle black... :-* heh.
first one gets depressed because one's identity is all fuzzy, then, as that comes slowly into focus, one may see clearly that they're still quite depressed.
others say, "jeez, why can't you just be queer? couldn't you just do that? wouldn't that float your boat?
well, no, i have to do this other thing, too.
-ellie
Quote from: Jaimey on November 14, 2008, 05:14:50 PM
Somehow I think we might be both trans and weird.
Yes, trans and weird sure fits me. It's like that chewing gum commercial from some years ago... two, two, two genders in one ;D
Z
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
I'm not exactly sure, but it's nice to see Ell back here! ;D
Z
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
I don't know about that, but I called you a kettle. :P
I'm a queer kettle of fish :P
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 04:30:42 PM
I'm a queer kettle of fish :P
A kettle of fish would be queer indeed. :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
If you parse the word, it means "beyond queerness." That sure fits me to a "T."
Quote from: Zythyra on November 15, 2008, 11:58:38 AM
I'm not exactly sure, but it's nice to see Ell back here! ;D
Z
I've been hoping she would get back to posting for a couple of months.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 16, 2008, 12:33:53 PM
I've been hoping she would get back to posting for a couple of months.
And it's good to see you back too! ;D
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on November 16, 2008, 12:47:33 PM
And it's good to see you back too! ;D
Z
I couldn't very well stay away if Ell came back.
Quote from: Zythyra on November 15, 2008, 11:58:38 AM
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
I'm not exactly sure, but it's nice to see Ell back here! ;D
Z
aw, thanks. : )
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
possibly I think it suits me well ;D :laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on November 15, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
did elle just call us transqueers? :laugh:
trans = "beyond"
queer = "strange or odd"
Yup. That suits me.
Maybe that can be the diagnosis we've all be searching for.