I'm fine with being a trap.. It's the thought that counts. If I think I'm a boy, I'm a boy. A lot of cis-people get their gender mistaken; you just have to correct it.
It's common nowadays for men to look feminine and for woman to look masculine, so whatever.
It's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.
I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.
Well, say that when you're pinned up to the wall in a mens bathroom.
Passing is a great feeling at first but then it comes down to safety.
I'm a girl, I want people to see me as a girl. It's upsetting to be constantly 'sir'd by employees and treated like 'one of the guys' by people I don't know.
Discrimination can be annoying or devastating. It all depends who does it. If you're trying to get a seat at a local restaurant and the owner denies you, then it's annoying. If you're looking for a job or a place to live, then it can be devastating.
Society is still very bi-gendered. Emphasize "VERY". Most people's minds go to wild, absurd images when they can't immediately determine gender. Even more so when they know you've crossed genders. Remember, the average IQ is something like 93. That means about half the people fall below that mark. If they aren't prone to learning they are probably prone to irrational behavior when confronted with something foreign to them. (Rule of 93) The irrational is magnified with some of the Jerry Springer fan-types and irrational behavior cannot be accurately predicted. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Now, if you find yourself pinned up against the wall in the mens bathroom, odds are you broke a male rule of engagement. Unless you outed yourself or simply cannot pass, you probably made some sort of contact with the guy, even just a sidelong glance, and he's bigger than you. BIG NO-NO! In the mens bathroom you walk in, do your business and walk out. You may be able to get away with light conversation while washing your hands but for the most part you should NEVER make contact. It's a very difference experience from the womens bathroom. Think battlefront when entering a mens bathroom. And BTW, the Rule of 93 applies here too.
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 25, 2011, 08:01:40 AM
Discrimination can be annoying or devastating. It all depends who does it. If you're trying to get a seat at a local restaurant and the owner denies you, then it's annoying. If you're looking for a job or a place to live, then it can be devastating.
Society is still very bi-gendered. Emphasize "VERY". Most people's minds go to wild, absurd images when they can't immediately determine gender. Even more so when they know you've crossed genders. Remember, the average IQ is something like 93. That means about half the people fall below that mark. If they aren't prone to learning they are probably prone to irrational behavior when confronted with something foreign to them. (Rule of 93) The irrational is magnified with some of the Jerry Springer fan-types and irrational behavior cannot be accurately predicted. Shoot first, ask questions later.
Now, if you find yourself pinned up against the wall in the mens bathroom, odds are you broke a male rule of engagement. Unless you outed yourself or simply cannot pass, you probably made some sort of contact with the guy, even just a sidelong glance, and he's bigger than you. BIG NO-NO! In the mens bathroom you walk in, do your business and walk out. You may be able to get away with light conversation while washing your hands but for the most part you should NEVER make contact. It's a very difference experience from the womens bathroom. Think battlefront when entering a mens bathroom. And BTW, the Rule of 93 applies here too.
Well said.
Also, it didn't happen to me but I've heard horror stories about it. I never attempted to use a mens room until I started testosterone. I didn't want to cause a scene. That, and an FTM friend got the ->-bleeped-<- kicked out of him badly by 3 or 4 guys outside of a bar. While they were kicking him they shouted "wtf are you?" So really, that's why passing matters. :/
Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AM
I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.
I agree with it all except this. If you're at the store or something and somebody gets it wrong either correct them or ignore it if you don't want to waste your time/energy on them. There is no "pass". People either get it right or they get it wrong.
Unfortunately there are still times when you may get attacked for it if someone thinks you don't fit typical gender patterns, either physically or otherwise, such as employment discrimination, especially if they do a background check (does anyone not these days?). Bathrooms are another hazard zone; best to get in and out fast. I find that if you look busy, confident, in a hurry, and like you know exactly what you're doing most people will leave you alone. That applies to many situations. The worst thing you can do is appear vulnerable, fearful, or unsure. To some people that signals that something is wrong or that you're trying to get away with something. To others it makes you look like prey.
Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AM
I'm fine with being a trap.. It's the thought that counts. If I think I'm a boy, I'm a boy. A lot of cis-people get their gender mistaken; you just have to correct it.
It's common nowadays for men to look feminine and for woman to look masculine, so whatever.
It's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.
I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.
Your sentiment is refreshing.... but very naive.
There are many who HATE transgender people.... hate enough to say and do things they normally wouldn't.
I'm sorry to be so blunt but.... your attitude could get you killed.
From an experience during early transition: "Check that out.... does that have an adam's apple? Heh.... maybe it should be careful walking to it's car... never know what might happen to one of those".... <four guys laughing>
As much as I know I'm a woman.....it still matters to me that people recognize and acknowledge me as such.
But everyone is different.
^ This.
I avoid going out as much as possible and when I do, it's almost always with at least one other guy. I've been paranoid my whole life and coming out has only exacerbated it.
I realize that there's a lot of feminine guys out there, so if a store clerk hesitantly calls me a girl I can live with it. What drives me up a wall is when I'm suffocating under two binders and swimming in clothes too big for me and STILL people are calling me a girl. That's when I start getting upset.
The only thing I can add is that passing is kind of a Bob Dylan deal. Most people don't care in the least bit, but the ones who care, care a hell of a lot.
I have never had a problem. Ether I am very naive, very lucky or just always watch for things that could be out of the ordinary. I think that I am watchful, which any woman should be.
It does matter for me.
Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.
I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.
Quote from: Nygeel on March 27, 2011, 12:13:19 AM
It does matter for me.
Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.
I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.
That's so wrong. It doesn't surprise me but still, it's just...man. There's something seriously wrong with people. That's scary as hell, I can't believe they'd deny you medical service even.
Quote from: N.Chaos on March 27, 2011, 12:33:41 AM
That's so wrong. It doesn't surprise me but still, it's just...man. There's something seriously wrong with people. That's scary as hell, I can't believe they'd deny you medical service even.
All of it is wrong, yet all of it is true. I don't live in the bible belt. I don't live in a state that's considered conservative yet crap like that happens.
Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AMIt's an innocent mistake. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't think twice if you just corrected them.
I doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.
I guess you've never been driven out of the women's restroom by a freaked-out gal who is so sure that a guy has infiltrated her space that she heads for security, or another women's restroom. Or the men's room for that matter, because she's so sure that she must have stumbled into the gents' by mistake that she turns around and heads straight into the men's room without reading the sign. Or she's so sure that I'm going into the wrong place that she actually bars the doorway with her own body, thus making it impossible for me to enter without getting physical--or lifting up my shirt. And so on.
Of course, these women were right: there WAS a guy in their restroom. A guy with boobs, a front hole, and a high voice.
Around here nobody seems to care much generally, but then I won't be going into a pub at night in some areas either. At least there are legal protections here for transpeople amongst others, but then criminals are criminals because they break the law.
For the sake of all the people who have suffered over there, I'd love to grab "American Society" by the collar and say, "listen, if your best friends can't tell you that you have excruciating body odour, who can. For goodness sake, wash the 17th Century off, mate!"
Karen.
There is no 'American Society' there are "American Societies' plural. Several of them.
No it doesn't matter to me...as long as people don't say anything rude. I longboard and need to wear functional clothing, which by it's nature is fairly androgynous, so I go out and about in the full knowledge that I may be mis-gendered, but I don't care. The fact is that I don't get mis-gendered but that's not the point.
On the phone I occasionally get misgendered, but I just pass it off with a quick "oh you wouldn't believe how often that happens" They always just apologise.
If you make a big deal of it it just makes people suspicious of what you have to hide.
It would matter greatly to me, probably because I depend to much upon the validation of others.
Quote from: Nygeel on March 27, 2011, 12:13:19 AM
It does matter for me.
Where I live trans women have been beaten and arrested for using the women's bathroom. There are no laws that prevent discrimination against transgender people. If I go to a resturaunt they can refuse to serve me if they read me as trans. I know of at least one trans fellow who used the men's bathroom at a bar after being very confident in his ability to be read as male (he had a large amount of facial hair). He was beaten and raped for being read as trans. He couldn't report it to the police because he didn't want to out himself, and on top of that dealing with ignorant police officers won't help.
I was denied a job for the way I express my gender, and the way I identify. I've been thrown out of clubs for using the men's bathroom. I've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine." So, yes. In many places and in many situations passing can be very important.
that sounds a little too much like what black people went through in the 1950's. to us, it sounds so stupid about what you say happened to you at the ER. that they actually have gendered standards for who they treat in an emergency room. sadly, those people are so pathetic, that they actually believe it's their responsibility.
why don't we start a "NAATP"
I think it's worse when I don't pass. Being in high school, it's pretty rough if I'm perceived as female by passerby students. Mostly it's anti-LGB comments, and thankfully it's never gotten physical, but sometimes I'm scared of what could happen if someone sees me as male and finds out that I'm biologically female.
Trans, along with all LGBTQ people, are at a great risk of being bashed. After my friend was gay bashed, I was terrified, even though we live in different cities.
So, yes, passing is a big deal and it does matter to me.
Quote from: Ribbons on March 25, 2011, 07:15:52 AMI doubt most people are going to discriminate much against you if you don't pass.
Why should anybody discriminate against us? Frankly, I think one is too many.
In an urban setting, I generally like to pass, but the longer I'm on testosterone the less I'm actively concerned about it. I pass to myself, and that's what matters. I'm okay with being perceived as androgynous, I'm genderqueer and I like to express it when the situation allows. Most of the time, I'll never run into the same people often enough that it matters how they perceive me. Bathrooms make me most nervous when I'm in a city, and that's definitely a safety issue.
In a rural setting, like where I live, I feel like I need to pass. I don't want to do anything that makes me stand out, including confusing people in regard to my gender. Pre-T I looked and sounded like a very feminine guy, and I happened to be wearing a necklace one day - you would not believe the glares I got when I was minding my own business browsing shops. One woman refused to move out of my way when I tried to pass and she referred to me as "it" to her friend. I don't feel safe appearing either a feminine man or a masculine woman, just being out as gay is a scary concept to me here. As soon as I can, I'm going somewhere where I don't sense impending doom.
Quote from: Jerica on March 26, 2011, 11:44:19 PM
As much as I know I'm a woman.....it still matters to me that people recognize and acknowledge me as such.
But everyone is different.
Absolutely agree, it matters to me that people except, recognize and acknowledge me as a woman.
p
Years ago I changed everything that was possible at the time to make sure that I gave nobody any reason not to suspect that I was a female and I have lived and worked as female ever since. I have not gone through what I have gone through to be thought of anything less than a female. So to answer the original question in the context it was asked.
Does it honestly matter whether you pass as your gender or not?
Yes, it matters very much to me and it is imperative that remains so and I will take care of anything that will jeopardise that.
However, having said that, I don't pass and I'm not in stealth, never have been and I never will be because, I get up in the morning, go to work interact with my colleagues, come home, take care of my family and friends and go to bed. In other words I'm living my life as any other female does in similar circumstances and as such, people accept, recognise and acknowledge me as such. Just as I accept, recognise and acknowledge other peoples gender. Because not to would make me a hypocrite.
Kind regards
Sarah B
To me, passing is important, but it's not everything. What's important is that I feel at home with myself, and not like I'm wearing a masquerade suit all the time. I want people to accept, respect and acknowledge me as a guy, because I am a guy. However, if some random stranger in the street thinks I'm a girl, I don't really care. It's they who are mistaken, not me.
Personally, I feel a lot of people give themselves needless worry and stress on the "do I pass" thing. If you are confident in who you are, that confidence will show on the outside too and it really can just be a simple matter of correcting someone who might get it wrong (only if you choose to correct them and in certain situations). Even if you have to still live your life as male and you're really female or vice versa, if you know who you are on the inside you can develop an inner confidence in yourself that will show on the outside.
Before everyone reiterates the safety thing, let me expand on safety myself.
I pretty much grew up in Los Angeles. Anyway, I've been all over that city over the years. I used to go to raves in abandoned buildings down on Gage. I used to eat chicken and waffles at Rosco's (and I used to live a couple miles from there and sometimes walk down there). I used to bring my camera and take photos downtown, all over Hollywood, and in parts of the L.A. river (for those of you unfamiliar with the L.A. "river" it's all concrete and in some areas covered with amazing graffiti). In all the years I lived there, I was never f**cked with except for one isolated incident in my own apartment ... and I've been female, male and in-between. I'm no where near physically imposing. I'm white and 5'3" and even in guy mode can still be taken as a female sometimes. I've had friends that lived somewhere else and moved to L.A. and every one of them has had something happen to them - cars stolen, beaten up, mugged. I've known a number of people from there that have had problems. What I attribute my record of not having any problems to is not just attitude (which does go a long way - if you walk down the street confident, you do not make yourself an "easy" target) but awareness. I have absolutely, personally witnessed some very, very sketchy ->-bleeped-<- go down. There were places where I would rather piss in a bottle in my car than get out. There were places where I'd drive through a red light in my car rather than stop. There were places where I would walk down one street that was out of the way instead of talking a more direct route. Being totally aware of your surroundings and the people in those surrounding is a very key skill to cultivate - whether you live in the big city or not. Sometimes this does mean modifying your behavior. Some people might not be "cool" with this but I can tell you it's better to be aware and avoid a situation then be subjected to something bad going down. I've even been in a few occasions where there were not easy options to just avoid it. Luckily, I'm a damn good actor when I need to be. I've been to places where I walk in, and pretty much walk right out. I've always considered myself empathetic as well. If some place just has a weird vibe, I will avoid it. This includes bars, shops, restrooms, whatever. I know not everyone has a heightened sense of what might be impending doom but just getting familiar with your surroundings, other people's body language, etc. can literally be a life saver.
Some might totally call me a cop-out or a pussy or any other names because I'm not the "out and proud" type and I'm not beneath playing the part of the opposite gender if I know it would behoove me to do so in a particular situation. But I'm all about self-preservation just as much as I am about self-expression and just being yourself. But to me, safety takes precedence.
A few years ago I went to NYC for the first time. Everyone told me, oh you have to really watch yourself there! Really, I just behaved like I did when I lived in L.A. - I was totally aware of the surroundings - even though they were unfamiliar to me - and I walked with my head up like I knew exactly where I was going with confidence (even if I didn't!). I had other "tourists" asking me for directions. I was there for a couple weeks and every night I would walk a couple blocks from the hotel (which was between China Town and SoHo) to this 24 hr market and get some snacks or water. I saw the most amazing things at 1am in NYC. Giant rats. Crazy bums. People having arguments. Just a whole bunch of random stuff. There were a few times where I rode the subway late. I caught on pretty quickly to subway etiquette though and even when there was the crazy guy who was trying to get in people's faces I managed to get through the experience unscathed. I'd totally go to NYC again in a heartbeat.
And I know that even with being aware and confident, things can still happen. But I feel like at least the odds are lower and I really do believe in the power of the mind. There's also been a number of studies having to do with criminals and victims. Criminals have come right out and said they specifically look for "easy pray" - that is the people walking with their heads down at the ground, unaware of their surroundings, people who were obviously nervous or "out of place", people fumbling for their keys ... The majority of criminals or people bent on doing others harm seem to have a sixth sense and are able to spot those easy targets. They're able to "smell fear" and things like that. If you're ever in or around a dangerous situation the worst thing you can do is appear nervous or fearful or freak out.
I hope that no one here has to deal with a dangerous situation but I hope that these few tips might help out just in your general life - to me more aware of your surroundings and situations that have the potential to be a problem.
As long as I'm comfortable in my own skin, that's all that matters to me. If I pass to other people is my secondary objective in transitioning.
Seems to me from reading various threads on this forum that passing really matters to some people, and doesn't to others, and so the real question is not "does it really matter?" but "does it matter to you?" it's important that we don't universalise our own experiences or feel threatened by someone being different from us.
I've found myself thinking about this a lot, as I'm wondering what I would want to pass as if I want to pass. Talking to friends about my desire to transition, it's clear that some of them have an unconscious fixed idea of "looking like a woman" that's based around a very narrow-bandwidth idea of "what a woman looks like", so I keep having to point out the vast array of "looks" that women choose from, from what would be considered "very feminine" to what would be considered "very masculine" and all kinds of other scales too. My role models for how I think I'd like to end up looking all happen to be wiry lesbians (short hair, combat trousers kind of thing), and in some of my friends' eyes that doesn't constitute "passing as a woman" at all. At the moment (and this is before I've really begun transitioning) I don't think I care much what other people think, but that may change, as I change - how I want to look and be seen may change as I change.
Perhaps one day I will be totally secure in myself. But for now all i can say is that it matters, and it matters a lot. I rarely have problems, but I do not want to be discriminated against. I do not want to be put in harm's way just because of natural bodily functions. I do not want to be denied dressing rooms. I don't want to be hassled by cops. I don't even want to the be the object of whispers and glances. On and on the list could go. I think anyone who says these things don't matter is in denial. Or maybe one day I will truly not care. I just doubt it.
Speaking just for myself, if "passing" (I really hate that term, actually) didn't matter to me, I would not have medically transitioned. Of course, I didn't have a lot of choices. I don't think I would have lived much longer if I hadn't transitioned. I was emotionally exhausted.
Speculating about many, I suspect that most of us would have a hard freaking time living decade after decade and not being read as our true gender. Some of us don't make it.
And for those of us who did live that way for decades, well, let me go back to myself again. It can really do a number on us psychologically, and for me it did. In spades. I project confidence to the world now, but inside I'm still the little kid who wants his thirty-five-year-old father to call him "son" JUST ONCE, the adolescent who is mortified by what's happening to his body, and the young adult who resigned himself to being what everyone else perceived him to be. And, yes, the middle-aged guy who stared into the mirror one day and realized with profound despair, My god, I am forty-four, and I am going to die as a woman.
I carry all of that around with me, and the biggest reason I'm making any progress at all in combating it is that I PASS. A few people are quite content to just know who they are and be fine with that, regardless of how the millions see them. I'm not one of those people. Being treated as the man I am by other people makes all the difference in the world.
I agree with everything Arch said.
Also, it feels even more important to me to pass after a recent incident when I didn't pass. Not passing around some people can lead to some pretty bad outcomes and I'm lucky the most I got was dirty looks and no confrontation - it could've ended much, much worse.
It does matter to me--it matters a lot. Because it really, really hurts when people read me wrong. I can go on and on about how I should be confident in myself and it doesn't matter and I'll never see them again, as much as I want--but it still makes me feel like I've been punched in the gut. Every. Single. Time.
Maybe someday I'll be confident enough that it won't matter.
Quote from: Kristi on March 29, 2011, 07:11:06 AM
Perhaps one day I will be totally secure in myself. But for now all i can say is that it matters, and it matters a lot. I rarely have problems, but I do not want to be discriminated against. i so not want to be put in harm's way just because of natural bodily functions. I do not want to be denied dressing rooms. I don't want to be hassled by cops. I don't even want to the be the object of whispers and glances. On and on the list could go. I think anyone who says these things don't matter is in denial. Or maybe one day I will truly not care. I just doubt it.
Everybody's replies are so interesting and right on.
Kristi (quoted) and Julie Marie made comments that really resonate with me. What you two said? Ditto that here, girls. So, so true. Sigh.
Kristi has it so right in her quote as noted above. Totally agree with you, hon. That's "where I live" too. You said it so well. Thank you very much.
Julie Marie makes totally valid points. What she said about the stupidity and violence of the masses is so sadly true. It really is. Face the facts. Many of you know that transpeople generally are among the most intelligent groups, taken as a whole, in society being significantly brighter than the masses. Some transfolks have about 100 IQ points over the average mass IQ that Julie Marie mentions. Really.
Transition cures our body and gender dysphoria. How do we cure our violence and stupidity dysphoria? The answer? We don't. How often have you felt like you are the only sane person in a group of nutsos? Very often, I'd wager to say! Therein lies the rub! There is no escaping the asininity of the masses and you must do all you can to avoid their subsequent aggression.
What a world. No excuse or explanation that any god could possibly offer would suffice for just how whacked out it really is. Even the whole Law of the Jungle trip in nature beggars belief. What's the point? Amazing beauty and transcendent hideousness mutually and eternally superimposed. Duh?
Then, we have to worry about punishment for eternity in some afterlife? Like, whatever.
Sometimes, it really is too much. Bogs you down. Even transition cannot slake the appetite for sanity, balance and decency.
Just my two-cents' worth. Sorry to annoy you. Just had to say this.
:P Lacey Lynne
I live in a small town thats pretty good about us. It is important for me to see myself in the mirror. If I can not see me then how can I find someone to love someone they cannot see. I want to be seen and loved. I feel invisible and unloved now.
Just popping in to say I love you angie. Keep your chin up. :)
I heard a story that made me shudder.... I still can't get the image out of my head...
Last year, a transgender man was read as trans in the mens room on a college campus in Southern California. Another man confronted, then attacked him; he pulled his shirt over his head and carved the word, "IT" on his chest with a knife.
An experience I had last night made me realize how truly dangerous it is for us. Passing is important to me for a number of reasons but my safety (and my kids' safety) is why.
Quote from: N.Chaos on March 26, 2011, 11:50:28 PM
I realize that there's a lot of feminine guys out there, so if a store clerk hesitantly calls me a girl I can live with it. What drives me up a wall is when I'm suffocating under two binders and swimming in clothes too big for me and STILL people are calling me a girl. That's when I start getting upset.
^This!
I find as I embark on this process of blowing open and being more "me," that my reaction to not being "read" as male varies from "no problem" when I'm not trying to pass to near rage when I am trying. Somehow, some part of my brain thought that once I cut my hair short, I was going to pass all the time. :/ I'm still working through that...
Quote from: JessicaR on March 30, 2011, 08:12:58 PM
I heard a story that made me shudder.... I still can't get the image out of my head...
Last year, a transgender man was read as trans in the mens room on a college campus in Southern California. Another man confronted, then attacked him; he pulled his shirt over his head and carved the word, "IT" on his chest with a knife.
An experience I had last night made me realize how truly dangerous it is for us. Passing is important to me for a number of reasons but my safety (and my kids' safety) is why.
That's disgusting.
And everyone wonders why I'd rather just stay inside on 4chan as opposed to going out and all that BS. Even on those rare occasions where I'm NOT paranoid, I always feel this crawling kind of hatred towards everyone around me, thinking about incidents like that, realizing that if half of them really knew me they'd probably laugh in my face while I died. Individual people are fine, small groups are fine, but people on the whole? Hate them. I have to be completely honest and admit here, knowing that most non-trans people will never feel this kind of terror, this kind of basic goddamn fear just to live...it makes me want to find the things that they
do fear and traumatize
them with it.
But that's me. I'm a hateful jerk. At least I keep it to myself, though. At least I've never tried to kill someone unprovoked.
When presenting female, I refused to be controlled by the misogynistic ->-bleeped-<-s who make women afraid to leave their homes at night. I went where I pelased, when I pleased; I took long solo walks through dark parks at 3am, I stumbled home drunk across a university campus, I spent the night in my buddies' rooms. I accepted the risks that came with claiming that freedom, and in a few cases those risks became reality. But I refuse to regret it.
As a trans man, I refuse to be controlled by transphobes. I refuse to be excessively concerned about passing. On days when I want to be comfortable, I'm bloody well going to go out in nothing but a sports bra and a sweatshirt. Or even a T-shirt. I'm not going to move differently, talk differently, change who I am so that the transphobes can't spot me, any more than I changed who I was and what I wanted to do so the misogynists couldn't access me.
Not to say that I don't care at all about passing. But mainly, I care about it in the context of looking attractive. I want to look good, in a non-androgynous masculine sort of way, and that sort of requires passing. But with that as my motivation, I don't particularly care if I don't always pass.
My physical transition isn't mostly about what other people see. It's about 3 parts making my body feel right/look familiar, 6 parts having the right hormone balance to make me not suicidal, and 1 part appearance/vanity.
The thing is though, when we don't pass most of the time it is from people who are not transphobic, it is just how they read us. I think it's a bit unfair to think if you don't pass it's from transphobia.
If someone is unsure of a FTM the first thing they look for - even WE do it -- are breasts and how can someone tell the difference between a person presenting as a masculine woman or a transgender male? If you are on testosterone and it's obvious with your voice and possible facial hair and you are not binding people won't think anything of it, they will probably just think you are fat or awkwardly proportioned.
It is only transphobic when someone acts negatively towards you based on the fact that they know for sure you are transgender.
And that happens mostly in bathrooms than just walking down the street.
I'm not saying that not passing is due to transphobia. I'm saying that many trans people's debilitating fear of not passing is because of transphobes. Read through the thread and you'll see a ton of people talking about safety and fear of being assaulted if they don't pass.
Is it sensible to be concerned about those things? Sure. But I, personally, can't be bothered.
Quote from: Lee on March 30, 2011, 03:52:57 AM
Just popping in to say I love you angie. Keep your chin up. :)
Aw thanks you made my day. :)
I`m not done yet. ;D I am seeing another balance and chain reaction here. A pattern and patterns can be broken. Back to the bad feelings. Hate , anger, rage, fear, ect. A world full of thoughts that follow those feeling shape the world around them and us. We live in a world so out of balance from people well trained to stay within that relm. People segrigate themselves in groups and unanamously amongst them agree that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Narsassisstic views of group psycosis.Well, its all out of balance around us and it will do the same thing everything does out of balance.
There is no other way arround it. Since we live in a universe that has 2 sides to everything and we live at the bottom of a struggling society through bigotry train within that society to keep us there. Doesn`t that make you wonder why ancient , happy, thriving civilizations that honnored us with the highest respect from all the people arround where taken over had there everything taken away and in place a system that honors monitry value in its place and those who issue it.
I personnaly feel nature ( mother) will not allow all this devistation to her creation.
Brace youself for the rath of natures balance to bring it back. when that happens once again we will be honnored as the advisers of balance that we where in the ancient times. It just takes thousands of years and major changes and time seem to speed up at the end of the ages. picies has been a time of servutude, suffering, famin, and riligions that take away from there instincts so they can be controled through mythicalizm. Through this age you will see a pattern of civilisations in touch with nature being wiped out where ever they can be found. Replaced with famin, starvation, suffering, servitude, and death. The negative feelings that the people produce only gives those in power more power through this age. Aquarious will eventually pan out to freedom not order, and servitude.
However we need to be safe till then. Do not fall into those bad feelings. Use pitty instead.
I love you all. Ang.
Almost forgot! My post here was to give you a positive light on something I am seeing as negative energy. Positive energy will make a positive flip. Those who are bigoted to us will soon see there biggest fears unfold in front of them. They will prey only to have no answer. As long as you do not give credit to creation outside of what you see, taste , smell, touch, hear, and do not give credit to your atrubutes and acomplishments outside yourself. Your fears will be pitty for those who do , do this.
Ok thats it.
Quote from: Arch on March 29, 2011, 02:55:05 PM
Speaking just for myself, if "passing" (I really hate that term, actually) didn't matter to me, I would not have medically transitioned. Of course, I didn't have a lot of choices. I don't think I would have lived much longer if I hadn't transitioned. I was emotionally exhausted.
Speculating about many, I suspect that most of us would have a hard freaking time living decade after decade and not being read as our true gender. Some of us don't make it.
And for those of us who did live that way for decades, well, let me go back to myself again. It can really do a number on us psychologically, and for me it did. In spades. I project confidence to the world now, but inside I'm still the little kid who wants his thirty-five-year-old father to call him "son" JUST ONCE, the adolescent who is mortified by what's happening to his body, and the young adult who resigned himself to being what everyone else perceived him to be. And, yes, the middle-aged guy who stared into the mirror one day and realized with profound despair, My god, I am forty-four, and I am going to die as a woman.
I carry all of that around with me, and the biggest reason I'm making any progress at all in combating it is that I PASS. A few people are quite content to just know who they are and be fine with that, regardless of how the millions see them. I'm not one of those people. Being treated as the man I am by other people makes all the difference in the world.
I totally relate to this. Heck yeah, it matters to me.
I suppose I should clarify my statement:
QuoteSpeaking just for myself, if "passing" (I really hate that term, actually) didn't matter to me, I would not have medically transitioned.
I have done the "I'm a boy in my head" thing for my entire life. Somehow, although I hated my body, I was able to live with it. But I became more and more dysphoric over the years. So much so that I had to go back into the closet and just not deal with it.
I had a lot of fears about transition, but it boiled down to a couple of key issues. I didn't want to jeopardize my relationship, I was afraid of the unknown, and I didn't want to deal with all of the social and economic drawbacks of living through and after transition (in short, I didn't want to be a verified freak--sorry, that's how I saw it).
But I wonder how much I would have hated my body if the world readily saw me as male despite my equipment. What if the world accepted that there are many different types of men, and some have bodies that significantly deviate from the standard type? I think it's entirely possible that when I was a teenager, I hated my chest and my bleeding and all of that because I and everyone else associated them with femaleness--not necessarily because I had some sort of preexisting mental body map from birth. Our actions, beliefs, and expectations shape our brain chemistry and pathways in various ways. I grew up thinking that certain equipment was exclusively female, so I conditioned myself to hate those parts and to imagine myself without them. I know that this is an unpopular view.
I can't really say for sure that if passing weren't important, I would definitely not have transitioned at all. But the weight of all of that internalized self-hatred became too much for me, and the only way to stay alive was to convince everyone else that I was male. I could only accomplish that by transitioning physically.
Sorry if this is a bit muddled. I've had a great deal of coffee today but no food. Time for lunch...
Quote from: JayUnit on March 31, 2011, 08:10:19 AMIt is only transphobic when someone acts negatively towards you based on the fact that they know for sure you are transgender.
And that happens mostly in bathrooms than just walking down the street.
I would disagree somewhat with this definition. If a person sees you as not fitting into the gender convention or stereotype that he/she/etc. holds, and that person acts negatively toward you because you don't fit into the box, then I would call that behavior transphobic.
Oh, and I've had pretty much equal negative reactions in the bathroom as out of it. Don't know if that's typical.
Quote from: kyril on March 31, 2011, 01:30:10 AM
My physical transition isn't mostly about what other people see. It's about 3 parts making my body feel right/look familiar, 6 parts having the right hormone balance to make me not suicidal, and 1 part appearance/vanity.
Kyril,
Ah! Your post stroke a note with me, Ditto to your quote above. I am a tigress by nature, nurture, and by experience, as such "situational awareness" is of paramount importance to avoid conflict and injury. Fortunately for me, where I live you can carry a canceled weapon. My favorite is my trusty 1911, never had to use it, and I hope the need will never materialize.
Quote from: Arch on April 02, 2011, 03:41:08 PM
But I wonder how much I would have hated my body if the world readily saw me as male despite my equipment. What if the world accepted that there are many different types of men, and some have bodies that significantly deviate from the standard type? I think it's entirely possible that when I was a teenager, I hated my chest and my bleeding and all of that because I and everyone else associated them with femaleness--not necessarily because I had some sort of preexisting mental body map from birth. Our actions, beliefs, and expectations shape our brain chemistry and pathways in various ways. I grew up thinking that certain equipment was exclusively female, so I conditioned myself to hate those parts and to imagine myself without them. I know that this is an unpopular view.
That's an interesting point actually. When I was younger, everyone saw me as male. They had to be specifically told otherwise by my parents or teachers. In college I got more androgynous but for the first 2 years it was still most people took me as male until they noticed me say "here" during attendance. So now I wonder how I would have felt if everyone would have taken me as female throughout my early life. I think my problems actually started when I made the discovery that other guys were not like me physically. It was even more shocking when I found out other girls weren't exactly like me either. So that started this whole chain reaction in my head where I just wanted to be a "normal guy". I did that whole thing when I was very young going to sleep and wishing I could just wake up and my body was ok. The thing is though, I'm never going to have that "perfect body". No amount of surgery or pills or HRT would give it to me. That was the roadblock I dealt with. Not so much the "passing" thing because that was something I could get over. So for me, it was about 80% physical, 20% what other people thought.
I still find everyone else's stories interesting. Even if they're different from mine it's proof that there's so much variation and everyone finds their own solutions and ways of dealing. For me it was a long road to get to the point where I wasn't comparing myself to "all the other guys". But I had to kind of pin point that too because for a big chunk of time I was just angry or depressed and thought it was for so many different reasons.
Quote from: Arch on April 02, 2011, 03:41:08 PM
I suppose I should clarify my statement:
I have done the "I'm a boy in my head" thing for my entire life. Somehow, although I hated my body, I was able to live with it. But I became more and more dysphoric over the years. So much so that I had to go back into the closet and just not deal with it.
I had a lot of fears about transition, but it boiled down to a couple of key issues. I didn't want to jeopardize my relationship, I was afraid of the unknown, and I didn't want to deal with all of the social and economic drawbacks of living through and after transition (in short, I didn't want to be a verified freak--sorry, that's how I saw it).
But I wonder how much I would have hated my body if the world readily saw me as male despite my equipment. What if the world accepted that there are many different types of men, and some have bodies that significantly deviate from the standard type? I think it's entirely possible that when I was a teenager, I hated my chest and my bleeding and all of that because I and everyone else associated them with femaleness--not necessarily because I had some sort of preexisting mental body map from birth. Our actions, beliefs, and expectations shape our brain chemistry and pathways in various ways. I grew up thinking that certain equipment was exclusively female, so I conditioned myself to hate those parts and to imagine myself without them. I know that this is an unpopular view.
I can't really say for sure that if passing weren't important, I would definitely not have transitioned at all. But the weight of all of that internalized self-hatred became too much for me, and the only way to stay alive was to convince everyone else that I was male. I could only accomplish that by transitioning physically.
Sorry if this is a bit muddled. I've had a great deal of coffee today but no food. Time for lunch...
Speaking as someone who was overwhelmingly able to live the way I wanted to live pre-transition, and who was easily accepted as one of the guys, and whose female body parts never caused any huge inconvenience:
I needed to transition because my brain needed testosterone. That's pretty much all there is to it. If I could have gone on living the way I did pre-transition, being called "she" and "her" and "ladies," but with T in my system, it would have been a livable life. But I needed T to make me not suicidal; it's the only thing that ever worked.
I'd fundamentally
prefer to pass. I'd
like to be seen as male. I'd
like a male chest. I really really
want a penis. But those are wants, likes, and preferences, not the life-or-death
need that I have to be on T.
Then again, there were all those years that I hated hated hated my body, even if nobody else saw it. When I started transitioning, I bound even when nobody else could see it. Now I pack even when nobody else can see.
Quote from: kyril on April 02, 2011, 09:38:27 PM
I needed to transition because my brain needed testosterone.
I think that this is a very important point that is glossed over too often.
Hormones are brain food.
I know that I needed estrogen to fully develop my "me".
QuoteI needed to transition because my brain needed testosterone.
I definitely felt compelled to
find out if my brain needed testosterone, but I was well aware that there was no way for me to tell for sure whether T was meeting a purely physical need (as in my brain needed it), a purely psychological need (as in I needed it emotionally, as part of transition), or a combination of the two.
Maybe I can look at it this way: what if the T had failed to change my voice and I still sounded exactly the same and everyone still read me as female? Would I have been okay with that? For me, the answer is no. No matter how much good I got out of transition (physical changes, psychological benefits, legal documentation), I am confident that I would have felt that being read properly by other people was still of paramount importance.
Quote from: insideontheoutside on March 29, 2011, 02:40:02 AM
Being totally aware of your surroundings and the people in those surrounding is a very key skill to cultivate - whether you live in the big city or not. Sometimes this does mean modifying your behavior. Some people might not be "cool" with this but I can tell you it's better to be aware and avoid a situation then be subjected to something bad going down. I've even been in a few occasions where there were not easy options to just avoid it. Luckily, I'm a damn good actor when I need to be. I've been to places where I walk in, and pretty much walk right out. I've always considered myself empathetic as well. If some place just has a weird vibe, I will avoid it. This includes bars, shops, restrooms, whatever. I know not everyone has a heightened sense of what might be impending doom but just getting familiar with your surroundings, other people's body language, etc. can literally be a life saver.
And I know that even with being aware and confident, things can still happen. But I feel like at least the odds are lower and I really do believe in the power of the mind. There's also been a number of studies having to do with criminals and victims. Criminals have come right out and said they specifically look for "easy pray" - that is the people walking with their heads down at the ground, unaware of their surroundings, people who were obviously nervous or "out of place", people fumbling for their keys ... The majority of criminals or people bent on doing others harm seem to have a sixth sense and are able to spot those easy targets. They're able to "smell fear" and things like that. If you're ever in or around a dangerous situation the worst thing you can do is appear nervous or fearful or freak out.
I hope that no one here has to deal with a dangerous situation but I hope that these few tips might help out just in your general life - to me more aware of your surroundings and situations that have the potential to be a problem.
I think passing goes a long way to avoiding problems in the first place, which is one of the reasons why I think FFS and related surgeries are so important...But as far as avoiding problems in general in public, no matter what you look like, This advice you gave above is just gold... it's completely true, all of it. And it will help anyone no matter what we look like, or if we are passable or not.
I live in the Chicago area, used to live in the city proper and I still spend a lot of time there for work. My company does road construction, so I am very often in some of the worst neighborhoods of the city, and sometimes alone. I walk in with my head held high, not agressive body language but not passive either, I just go about my business like nothing's wrong, even if inside I'm terrified. I have never had a significant problem with anything, never been mugged or beaten, or robbed, or even came close to any of this. I've seen situations developing, and casually made my exit or avoided the situation, but I've never been targeted, most likely because I don't look like a target.
People will smell fear, you've got to look like you belong and that you're in control and not a victim. Body language says it all.
Quote from: Renate on April 03, 2011, 05:42:53 AM
I think that this is a very important point that is glossed over too often.
Hormones are brain food.
I know that I needed estrogen to fully develop my "me".
yet, knowing this, and the fact that our condition is a medical one, we are continue to be refused the treatment (Hormones) we so rightfully deserve so. This refusal is a violation of the most basic human rights!
Quote from: Nygeel on March 27, 2011, 12:13:19 AMI've been refused service in a hospital's ER because I was "too masculine."
They broke federal law (EMTALA) when they did that. An emergency room cannot refuse you treatment. You could've sued them. At the very least you should've filed a complaint with the hospital.
Original post: While I understand what people are saying, "passing" is a flawed concept for two reasons:
It infers deception
It continues a cycle of living for others
You MUST live for yourself. When someone is first starting out you have to use an abundant amount of common sense and have a thick skin. Over time your confidence grows and hormones do their thing. Eventually most of us get to a point where safety becomes less of a concern, but it will always be in the background. It will be there because our society is still woefully ignorant. However, that should not stop us from being ourselves. Again, transition is about standing up and being your true self. Self-confidence is a powerful thing, whereas fear will get you noticed.
QuoteOriginal post: While I understand what people are saying, "passing" is a flawed concept for two reasons:
It infers deception
It continues a cycle of living for others
I respect your view, but don't see it that way at all. Passing is important to me for me. Even though it helps others get it right, that's for me. The times in my life that passing as my birth gender became important had a lot more to do with living for others and deception...especially self deception.
Quote from: Serra on March 25, 2011, 07:50:40 AM
I'm a girl, I want people to see me as a girl. It's upsetting to be constantly 'sir'd by employees and treated like 'one of the guys' by people I don't know.
What irritates is when a certain type of man gets pally with me saying something sexual about the woman I'd just been talking too. They are clueless, I haven't done anything to change my appearance I've only just begun this, but this hasn't come out of nowhere this is a lifetime of living as the wrong gender.
The mental system is fully functioning, HRT will perhaps smooth this, physically it will hopefully make a nice difference and I cannot see why it wont. No matter what it doesn't matter at all if I pass, my mental makeup works perfectly, all that matters is if I pass as me, I pass when I don't worry about being something.
Gender appearence plays a role but it's a secondary role accept where life chances are concerned. I have always known the source of my problem, it has stopped me from getting married, has caused the mental problem of 20 years of crippling anxiety, some things develop like friendships and work, but there's something seriously missing it's stealing your most precious moments away. This is painting to dark a picture there's plenty of precious moments, how I conduct myself, how being born this way has made me an insider who stands apart, I haven't been bought out, given something to shut me up, I'm not a stoolie.
Look at what being trans has given you and what is denied, it's a bag of good and bad, rectify the bad how much you can and reach out for what is reasonably within grasp.
So back in the middle ages they'd be no HRT or SRS, but the mental faculties were the same, dump gender in that sense as it makes no sense. But the physical needs to come into congruence for life to develop properly.
I personally thing it's more important how you feel inside. Whilst it's would be lovely to have everyone see me as the Girl I am, I know they currently don't but I take comfort in knowing that I'm being truthful to myself and for the moment that's enough for me to get by relatively happy.
This is coming from a CIS male. I'd say it's definitely important for you transexuals to resemble the gender/sex that you want to be.
If you don't look the part, then you won't be as accepted by your CIS peers.
And sometimes when a CIS is open to dating a transexual that transexual must look the part. Not trying to be rude, but I will not date a MTF pre-op or post that doesn't look feminine enough.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 11:47:55 AM
This is coming from a CIS male. I'd say it's definitely important for you transexuals to resemble the gender/sex that you want to be.
If you don't look the part, then you won't be as accepted by your CIS peers.
And sometimes when a CIS is open to dating a transexual that transexual must look the part. Not trying to be rude, but I will not date a MTF pre-op or post that doesn't look feminine enough.
I hate to break this to you but even as someone who does "pass" I don't give a flying <censored> what anyone thinks, and I certainly wouldn't date anyone arrogant and shallow enough to expect me to conform to their standards, who judged everything by appearance. Such a person would be frankly several major species beneath my contempt. (Probably better belonging somewhere in the species kingdom of fungi)
I am me - I did what I did 30 years ago for MY satisfaction, not theirs, and anyone who doesn't like me now can simply go hang!
Short answer no!
As it happens I pass perfectly as myself, and that's all I am interested in doing.
The only thing that is important to me is keeping people like that on the other side of the world from where I am.
Quote from: tekla on April 07, 2011, 02:24:23 PM
The only thing that is important to me is keeping people like that on the other side of the world from where I am.
Way to go Tekla ;D :laugh:
I know that I came off as mildly offensive in my post(that was an accident), but what I'm getting at is if you look more like the gender/sex that you wish to be you have a higher chance of being accepted by your peers, thereby being happier. I'm sorry that is a fact. My post wasn't targeted at anyone nor was I saying that of you don't look the part then you're a failure.
I said nothing like that. Since I've been on this site, I've seen some people that look the part, and some that don't. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.
And in terms of attraction if I date a transexual they need to look feminine enough for me to be attracted to them. Instead of being angry, I'd be happy that there are CIS's like me that even give transexuals the time of day.
I get the empression that you guys think that I. Judgemental, and that I'm the kind of person that will get violent if I find out later on that my GF is a T. This is not true. No I will not get violent, we may break up because she lied to me, but that's the worse that it would get.
For a group of people that doesn't want to be judged, you're certainly judging me alot.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 02:28:21 PM
And in terms of attraction if I date a transexual they need to look feminine enough for me to be attracted to them. Instead of being angry, I'd be happy that there are CIS's like me that even give transexuals the time of day.
My point is that for the past 30 years I haven't identified as transsexual, because quite aside from the fact that I was actually technically intersex, I regard the successful completion of treatment of the condition as an end to it. I became a "post-corrected cis".
Furthermore I think you are VASTLY underestimating the general level of acceptance that now exists. Even back in the early 80's when I was newly postop I successfully dated both men and women who were quite happy, and even back then I always declared my history because for me it is a point of trust. If they failed my test and backed away then I didn't want them in my bed. Even back then NO ONE did, and things have gone on from there. Of course as I now have a partner that I have been with for 23 years its now pretty academic.
Ok I live in the UK where we are perhaps in general slightly more relaxed about this, but even so don't kid yourself that you are in any way unique...
that there are CIS's like me that even give transexuals the time of day.
I already own a watch. Matter of fact, as Jenny can tell you, since I'm usually the stage manager, I really own the only watch that counts.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 02:33:34 PM
For a group of people that doesn't want to be judged, you're certainly judging me alot.
Ever had the experience of walking into a bar and hearing it all go icily quiet?
Well this is perhaps one of those moments...
It's usually a good time to either do some rapid rethinking - or maybe to quietly find a different bar to frequent.
And for the record I am NOT saying you should leave. Merely that if you want to fit in with the crowd in this particular bar you will need a bit of a rethink on some attitudes.
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2011, 02:38:29 PM
My point is that for the past 30 years I haven't identified as transsexual, because quite aside from the fact that I was actually technically intersex, I regard the successful completion of treatment of the condition as an end to it. I became a "post-corrected cis".
Furthermore I think you are VASTLY underestimating the general level of acceptance that now exists. Even back in the early 80's when I was newly postop I successfully dated both men and women who were quite happy, and even back then I always declared my history because for me it is a point of trust. If they failed my test and backed away then I didn't want them in my bed. Even back then NO ONE did, and things have gone on from there. Of course as I now have a partner that I have been with for 23 years its now pretty academic.
Ok I live in the UK where we are perhaps in general slightly more relaxed about this, but even so don't kid yourself that you are in any way unique...
I live in the U.S, yes. The publics general acceptance level of T's is very low(due to their portrayal on TV). so we can't really talk to eachother about this.
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 07, 2011, 02:39:09 PM
I'm sorry Crash but your statements come across as superior and arrogant. In your opinion we, as in me (since I fall into the group you are referring to), should be happy that you give me the time of day.
Let's reverse that for a sec. How about changing that to you should be happy that I give you the time of day.
Why is one person more lucky than the other? How is that relating to each other? There is no relationship possible with that model. But, I'm sure you realize it, so I dont know why I'm bothering to post.
If I saw you at a club and heard you say what you said, you wouldnt get past hello.
I didn't mean it like that, but let's be honest here. T's are rare, so are the kinds of CIS's that would date T's. Aren't you happy when a CIS says that they're open to dating a T? This gives you more options in selecting mates. There's no need to take offense to it. You should be happy about it.
Yes we can be judgmental. Because we have been look upon as freaks, perverts and other assorted non-conforming derogatory name.
We try to blended into your binary society. You may not think some of us are as you say "that look the part", and I can tell you we are not trying to "look the part". We are women, regardless of what you may think. You need to find out more about people before you start throwing saying offensive terms.
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2011, 02:48:32 PM
Ever had the experience of walking into a bar and hearing it all go icily quiet?
Well this is perhaps one of those moments...
It's usually a good time to either do some rapid rethinking - or maybe to quietly find a different bar to frequent.
And for the record I am NOT saying you should leave. Merely that if you want to fit in with the crowd in this particular bar you will need a bit of a rethink on some attitudes.
Lol, I understand, what you're saying, though I'm constantly trying not to sound rude. Maybe it's just my delivery i guess.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I didn't mean it like that, but let's be honest here. T's are rare, so are the kinds of CIS's that would date T's. Aren't you happy when a CIS says that they're open to dating a T? This gives you more options in selecting mates. There's no need to take offense to it. You should be happy about it.
Actually if you bothered to look it up. Some studies say the MtFs are 1 in every 100, and the FtMs are 1 in every 200. That is not rare. That is a pure fact.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 07, 2011, 02:55:57 PM
Yes we can be judgmental. Because we have been look upon as freaks, perverts and other assorted non-conforming derogatory name.
We try to blended into your binary society. You may not think some of us are as you say "that look the part", and I can tell you we are not trying to "look the part". We are women, regardless of what you may think. You need to find out more about people before you start throwing saying offensive terms.
Let's be honest here. The whole reason that T's even exist is because there are people who feel as of they were born the wrong gender(this is understandable). So you guys put yourself through all of these medical operations/take horomones/etc, so that you'll one day look like the gender/sex that you feel like you are.
Your actions alone tell me that you do infact want to look the part.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I didn't mean it like that, but let's be honest here. T's are rare, so are the kinds of CIS's that would date T's. Aren't you happy when a CIS says that they're open to dating a T? This gives you more options in selecting mates. There's no need to take offense to it. You should be happy about it.
You have a way with words Crash, even when your trying to explain yourself you come across as arrogant. I'm sure that isn't your intent.
The issue isn't if we should be happy someone is willing to date us. Your not doing us a favor by dating us. If you want to date a transgendered individual, do so. Don't brag about it. Don't even think of them as transgendered, think of them as someone your interested in.
Transgendered/transexual/etc are just terms the medical industry has assigned to us.
We are Women or Men, nothing more, nothing less.
See you still don't get it, do you? It isn't about looking the part for us, it is for people like you. You have no idea what we got thru, and it isn't the hormones, surgeries, clothes or makeup. It is the self loathing, the depression, the suicide attempts. and All over that because of narrow minded people.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 07, 2011, 02:59:26 PM
Actually if you bothered to look it up. Some studies say the MtFs are 1 in every 100, and the FtMs are 1 in every 200. That is not rare. That is a pure fact.
Umm that's pretty rare.... That's 1% for MTF's and .5% for FTM's
that's pretty rare. Rarer than homosexuality.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
Let's be honest here. The whole reason that T's even exist is because there are people who feel as of they were born the wrong gender(this is understandable). So you guys put yourself through all of these medical operations/take horomones/etc, so that you'll one day look like the gender/sex that you feel like you are.
Your actions alone tell me that you do infact want to look the part.
For the record we are not all the same in respect of the treatment we need. I had just one corrective operation to a part of my body that only a sexual partner would see.
Some of us got to enjoy childhood spent at least partially in our "correct gender" too. I did.
I agree that it is nice to blend in, but it isn't by any means the primary objective. The primary objective is to be comfortable in one's own skin.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on April 07, 2011, 03:08:59 PM
You have a way with words Crash, even when your trying to explain yourself you come across as arrogant. I'm sure that isn't your intent.
The issue isn't if we should be happy someone is willing to date us. Your not doing us a favor by dating us. If you want to date a transgendered individual, do so. Don't brag about it. Don't even think of them as transgendered, think of them as someone your interested in.
Transgendered/transexual/etc are just terms the medical industry has assigned to us.
We are Women or Men, nothing more, nothing less.
Any sane person would be happy that someone is willing to date them. I know
i'm happy when I ask a girl out, and she says yes. And I know that's she's happy that I asked her out.
Like if I asked a t girl out, and she said yes then I'd be happy that she said yes. There's nothing wrong with this.
It's about how we feel rather than looks. It isn't a beauty contest lol
I "pass" (such an ugly word denoting conceit) well enough that the men I date never guess about my past unless I tell them. I can walk through a crowd of teenage girls and never get a second look (some call that the ultimate "pass" test). That said, I never worry about passing anyway. Why? Because I'm a woman, therefore I "pass". ::)
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2011, 03:13:25 PM
For the record we are not all the same in respect of the treatment we need. I had just one corrective operation to a part of my body that only a sexual partner would see.
Some of us got to enjoy childhood spent at least partially in our "correct gender" too. I did.
I agree that it is nice to blend in, but it isn't by any means the primary objective. The primary objective is to be comfortable in one's own skin.
I know that it isn't the primary objective. But it is nice to look the part. Would you personally rather be more masculine in appearance, or more feminine.
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 07, 2011, 03:21:00 PM
It's about how we feel rather than looks. It isn't a beauty contest lol
I "pass" (such an ugly word denoting conceit) well enough that the men I date never guess about my past unless I tell them. I can walk through a crowd of teenage girls and never get a second look (some call that the ultimate "pass" test). That said, I never worry about passing anyway. Why? Because I'm a woman, therefore I "pass". ::)
Honestly, passing isn't about being man or woman. It's about looking the part.
According to you, you infact look the part.
it is very obvious that you just don't get it. It has NOTHING to do with LOOKS.
Gods, it is attitudes like that, that cause hundreds to take thier lives every year. Because that can't measure up to your low standards.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 03:21:42 PM
I know that it isn't the primary objective. But it is nice to look the part. Would you personally rather be more masculine in appearance, or more feminine.
My answer may actually surprise you.
It doesn't really bother me that much.
I am someone who genuinely enjoys periodically reinventing myself. Mostly I prefer a "middle of the road" appearance, but I have also sported the buzz cut and general style of an archetypical butch lesbian. In addition when I was younger I have had periods of being and looking quite girly.
So I don't really have a strong preference. It was important to me to be sexually female - but how masculine or feminine I was didn't really matter at all.
I guess it is.
I am just not comfortable with my body hair, facial hair, voice and jawline (not all of the time), hair length, skin texture, "part down there." I associate with women better than men, and the people I know and love all know me as a transsexual.
As long as I can get the things I need to ease my primary physical and secondary social dysphoria I really don't care what someone calls me. Some kind of female pronoun would be preferred, and don't throw male ones at me like they're knives.
It's complicated.
Quote from: EmmaM on April 07, 2011, 03:33:06 PM
I guess it is.
I am just not comfortable with my body hair, facial hair, voice and jawline (not all of the time), hair length, skin texture, "part down there." I associate with women better than men, and the people I know and love all know me as a transsexual.
As long as I can get the things I need to ease my primary physical and secondary social dysphoria I really don't care what someone calls me. Some kind of female pronoun would be preferred, and don't throw male ones at me like they're knives.
It's complicated.
You look pretty feminine to me.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 07, 2011, 03:29:00 PM
it is very obvious that you just don't get it. It has NOTHING to do with LOOKS.
Gods, it is attitudes like that, that cause hundreds to take thier lives every year. Because that can't measure up to your low standards.
Ummmm you're not making much since here.... Why're you so angry? And you say "low standards"? What is low, about my standards?
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 07, 2011, 04:12:14 PM
The original question asks if it matters "whether you pass as your gender", not whether you think someone else passes or not.
Does it matter to me? Yes, as a post-op woman living my life, it matters alot to me that I am recognized as my gender. It is more important to me than most anything. My lifestyle wouldnt be possible without that recognition.
That said, I had SRS for myself, not others to relieve the distress I had with my body.
I never said that any of you pass, or don't pass(well I did say that the hot tgi who posted once above me passed, but whatever).
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 03:51:38 PM
You look pretty feminine to me.
I guess I'm saying I feel no special need to "act like a girl." I do, though. I just try to make the inside and the outside match. I'm always in flux :D
You'll never get a straight answer out of me! (did you just call me hot? ;))
Quote from: EmmaM on April 07, 2011, 04:41:02 PM
I guess I'm saying I feel no special need to "act like a girl." I do, though. I just try to make the inside and the outside match. I'm always in flux :D
You'll never get a straight answer out of me! (did you just call me hot? ;))
Lol, yeah I did. And I'm a CIS male.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
And I'm a CIS male.
NO! you don't say :o
Actually I think we all got that ::) Just! :laugh:
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
Lol, yeah I did. And I'm a CIS male.
Thank you ! It doesn't matter to me whether you're a cis male. Just know that we all understand ourselves differently, each one like a snowflake :D
Jenny, you're one of my role models! I'm like a Jenny fan :-\ /dorkness
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
NO! you don't say :o
Actually I think we all got that ::) Just! :laugh:
Lol, shut up :laugh:.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 05:22:40 PM
Lol, shut up :laugh:.
mmnnn nnnn fffff gggh shhhh hhh :laugh:
No it's not working... I cant breath with the gag on!
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 07, 2011, 04:12:14 PM
The original question asks if it matters "whether you pass as your gender", not whether you think someone else passes or not.
Does it matter to me? Yes, as a post-op woman living my life, it matters alot to me that I am recognized as my gender. It is more important to me than most anything. My lifestyle wouldnt be possible without that recognition.
That said, I had SRS for myself, not others to relieve the distress I had with my body.
yes it matter to me that I do, for the same reasons Valerie mentioned. I still don't worry about it anymore, because I know who I am but I admit it's still a constant source of amazement to me. lol When I look in the mirror all I ever see is a woman, and I think that counts for something. It's also amazing what a few years of hormones and a good attitude can make towards your appearance.
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2011, 05:27:34 PM
mmnnn nnnn fffff gggh shhhh hhh :laugh:
No it's not working... I cant breath with the gag on!
Well that's too bad :(.
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 07, 2011, 06:01:38 PM
Respectfully, based on your answers in the Non-op forum of your sexual interests I would question that.
Theres nothing wrong with your answers, it just affects your perspective of us.
How has what I said made you question that I'm a cis male?
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 05:33:12 PMIf I were to date a non-op(like you for example) I'd still want to be masculine in bed, though sometimes I'd have the urge to be penetrated(orally, not anally).
Although when I date women, I'm "the man" in the relationship" persay.
Did we forget Crash? Or are you just saying something about your sexuality
why are you all argueing with someone who doesnt even get the whole trans thing
let them have their opinions and move on surely
Quote from: Elijah on April 07, 2011, 06:16:36 PM
as fare as rare conditions go, 1 in 100, or 1 in 200 isnt very rare at all. Just imagine for every hundred women you meet, one of them is possibly a transsexual. 1 percent of the entire population of women on earth? that is quite a few.
Yes that is alot of people. But that's still rare.
Assuming that there are 3 billion women on earth 1% of them being transexuals.
That means that there 30 million.
Relatively there aren't that many.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 07, 2011, 06:14:02 PM
Did we forget Crash? Or are you just saying something about your sexuality
Lol, sorry, got a lil carried away.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 06:37:06 PM
Yes that is alot of people. But that's still rare.
Assuming that there are 3 billion women on earth 1% of them being transexuals.
That means that there 30 million.
Relatively there aren't that many.
That's more than the entire population of Australia lol (22 million, 2008 census est.)
(Throw in New Zealand as well- 4 million)
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 07, 2011, 06:42:52 PM
That's more than the entire population of Australia lol (22 million, 2008 census est.)
(Throw in New Zealand as well- 4 million)
True, but they're spread across the entire globe.
Relatively, there aren't that many of you.
I'm not even one of me lol
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 07, 2011, 07:09:25 PM
People who have interests you've described are sometimes called ->-bleeped-<-s by our community. In many cases those people have gender issues themselves, though I dont know if you do or not. Your being on this site and saying you like preop women orally means either your chasing your interest or possibly questioning your own gender.
When I think of a Cis Male, I think first heterosexual male, though I know bisexual and gay men are cisgendered as well. It's just my view of cis males, they are heterosexual.
I dont know you so I cant say. I only know what Ive read from your posts and what I know of ->-bleeped-<-s and typical cis males.
Lol, ->-bleeped-<-s that's pretty funny. Anyway, I was born male, i feel manly therefore I am. I consider myself hetero, but my sexuality is subjective. I have no gender issues.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 07:03:46 PM
You're a CIS girl?
I am a woman who has a transsexual history, but am now no longer transsexual. To use a great quote from Suzan Cooke of womenborntranssexual.com:
QuoteI had a sex change to cure my transsexuality and it worked. I've never wanted to change my sex since.
:icon_chick:
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 07, 2011, 07:34:49 PM
I am a woman who has a transsexual history, but am now no longer transsexual. To use a great quote from Suzan Cooke of womenborntranssexual.com:
:icon_chick:
This is essentially where I would like to be, in time.
sweetie, I have no doubt you will get to be where you want to be. :)
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 11:47:55 AM
And sometimes when a CIS is open to dating a transexual that transexual must look the part. Not trying to be rude, but I will not date a MTF pre-op or post that doesn't look feminine enough.
If you're gonna hang around this forum you better understand these basic things:
There is gender
There is gender presentation
There is masculinity/femininity
and there is sexual orientation
They are all separate and do not have much to do with eachother.
There are actually MTF's who love being masculine, but not as a male (because they aren't male), so they transition so that they can be masculine women. You are NOT to judge or decide if they can or cannot be that way. They are women no matter what they look like and no matter if YOU like them or not.
There's also many CISpeople that do not "look the part" (in your standards). There are many heterosexual women who look quite manly, but still feel like women. Would you date them? I don't think so. But that's about YOU, not them. You don't need to go around telling them that they "have to look the part" just like you don't have to walk around telling transsexuals we have to "look the part". We'll look however we can and want to.
Quote from: Wraith on April 07, 2011, 08:52:24 PM
If you're gonna hang around this forum you better understand these basic things:
There is gender
There is gender presentation
There is masculinity/femininity
and there is sexual orientation
They are all separate and do not have much to do with eachother.
There are actually MTF's who love being masculine, but not as a male (because they aren't male), so they transition so that they can be masculine women. You are NOT to judge or decide if they can or cannot be that way. They are women no matter what they look like and no matter if YOU like them or not.
There's also many CISpeople that do not "look the part" (in your standards). There are many heterosexual women who look quite manly, but still feel like women. Would you date them? I don't think so. But that's about YOU, not them. You don't need to go around telling them that they "have to look the part" just like you don't have to walk around telling transsexuals we have to "look the part". We'll look however we can and want to.
Wow wow wow wow... Relax. All I said is that in order for me to date a MTF that they would have to look very feminine. That's all I said. I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I'm not casting judgement on any of you. All I was doing was telling you one of my likes, and dislikes in a partner didn't mean anything by it.
Chill out.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 07, 2011, 09:35:16 PM
Wow wow wow wow... Relax. All I said is that...
I'm shallow.
And lack any understanding about what identity is.
Quote from: Beyond on April 08, 2011, 05:37:16 AM
I'm shallow.
And lack any understanding about what identity is.
Ummm. Why're you editing my posts before quoting them.
In that post i explained why I wouldn't date a T that is masculine in appearance.
I'm just not attracted to that sort of look.
I have no idea why you conclude that Im shallow.
I'm sure that you wouldn't date someone that you aren't attracted to.
CRaSH:
I don't think ever we've had anyone rack up as much negative karma and end up on the watched list as quickly as you without getting moderated or outright banned.
We've had trolls before, but you do not seem to be one of those, however. You have stated that you are attracted to pre-operative or non-operative male to female trans women and genuinely seem to be wanting to understand them as people.
You've been told that this is not a dating site but are welcome to join in the conversation.
I have read through your posts, and you really seem to be trying participate.
You do come off as abrasive (see previous statement about negative karma) but if I try to put your statements in context I can understand that you are trying to state your own point of view. Which is one of the things that Susan's is all about.
But, please, you must understand that we are very sensitive, fragile people here. Many of us are trying to understand ourselves and come to grips with a terribly debilitating condition.
We are first, and foremost, people. We are not just words on a screen. We refuse to be objectified. Too often society in general regards us as shameful, perverted wastes of flesh and souls. Often times rejected by our loved ones and closest friends at the very moment that we need support and understanding.
For many of us, the people on this list and others like it, are the only family that they have and the only place to find solace and understanding. We are a broken people looking to heal, to transform, to become what they know themselves to be.
Many of us identify with the butterfly. Because this wonderful creature spends its life as a caterpillar, inching its way along with its drab colors, knowing nothing else of the world other than the leaf just in front of it. Then without its own volition, is driven to create a chrysalis, and within that cocoon to change, transform, and become something it perhaps only dimly perceived itself to be. And then emerge as something so different, and colorful, and FREE!
And if it is prevented from this transition, it will die. Many of us have come to the edge of the abyss. To face a life that is utterly changed never to return, or die. And too many of us have chosen oblivion rather than life.
Like the caterpillar/butterfly we are born to be this way. It is not a learned thing. It is not a fun thing. We would not wish this condition on our worst enemy. And this is not in any way sexually titillating or gratifying for us. Indeed one of the very first things to be annihilated by the dangerous medications we take is the sex drive, the libido. Permanent, chemical castration is one of the first irreversible effects of our journey and we accept that lifelong sterilization. Our exterior plumbing is only useful, in many cases, only for simple urination, not ejaculation.
We really do wish open and honest exchange of ideas and support, and we are truly open to all. But, please, if at all possible in your responses and posts, be mindful of the people you are speaking to as we try to be mindful of you.
Realize that words have power, and they can cut very deeply. We respect your opinion and really do want your input because we rarely get to interact with others not like ourselves without being disrespected.
We are just people and we want to live just as people, not sex objects. We often face a life of loneliness without a life partner or deep relationship. And the only thing we may be allowed is tawdry, temporary, coupling based solely on our difference and then discarded. We are not disposable people.
Thank you CraSH for being here, and interacting with us on a level we rarely see. But hold us gently for we can break.
-Sandy
Quote from: Sandy on April 08, 2011, 08:33:24 AM
CRaSH:
I don't think ever we've had anyone rack up as much negative karma and end up on the watched list as quickly as you without getting moderated or outright banned.
We've had trolls before, but you do not seem to be one of those, however. You have stated that you are attracted to pre-operative or non-operative male to female trans women and genuinely seem to be wanting to understand them as people.
You've been told that this is not a dating site but are welcome to join in the conversation.
I have read through your posts, and you really seem to be trying participate.
You do come off as abrasive (see previous statement about negative karma) but if I try to put your statements in context I can understand that you are trying to state your own point of view. Which is one of the things that Susan's is all about.
But, please, you must understand that we are very sensitive, fragile people here. Many of us are trying to understand ourselves and come to grips with a terribly debilitating condition.
We are first, and foremost, people. We are not just words on a screen. We refuse to be objectified. Too often society in general regards us as shameful, perverted wastes of flesh and souls. Often times rejected by our loved ones and closest friends at the very moment that we need support and understanding.
For many of us, the people on this list and others like it, are the only family that they have and the only place to find solace and understanding. We are a broken people looking to heal, to transform, to become what they know themselves to be.
Many of us identify with the butterfly. Because this wonderful creature spends its life as a caterpillar, inching its way along with its drab colors, knowing nothing else of the world other than the leaf just in front of it. Then without its own volition, is driven to create a chrysalis, and within that cocoon to change, transform, and become something it perhaps only dimly perceived itself to be. And then emerge as something so different, and colorful, and FREE!
And if it is prevented from this transition, it will die. Many of us have come to the edge of the abyss. To face a life that is utterly changed never to return, or die. And too many of us have chosen oblivion rather than life.
Like the caterpillar/butterfly we are born to be this way. It is not a learned thing. It is not a fun thing. We would not wish this condition on our worst enemy. And this is not in any way sexually titillating or gratifying for us. Indeed one of the very first things to be annihilated by the dangerous medications we take is the sex drive, the libido. Permanent, chemical castration is one of the first irreversible effects of our journey and we accept that lifelong sterilization. Our exterior plumbing is only useful, in many cases, only for simple urination, not ejaculation.
We really do wish open and honest exchange of ideas and support, and we are truly open to all. But, please, if at all possible in your responses and posts, be mindful of the people you are speaking to as we try to be mindful of you.
Realize that words have power, and they can cut very deeply. We respect your opinion and really do want your input because we rarely get to interact with others not like ourselves without being disrespected.
We are just people and we want to live just as people, not sex objects. We often face a life of loneliness without a life partner or deep relationship. And the only thing we may be allowed is tawdry, temporary, coupling based solely on our difference and then discarded. We are not disposable people.
Thank you CraSH for being here, and interacting with us on a level we rarely see. But hold us gently for we can break.
-Sandy
Really O_o?
Well to tell you the truth, i was actually moderated, once, for getting a little too sexually explicit. It was just a warning though. And I've actually recieved angry hate mail from a MtF Transexual on this site. Despite not even, having interacted with her on the forums. She kind of sounded angry that I'm a CIS, she said that I don't belong here. Understandable I guess.
And I agree, you guys n' gals do seem very, very fragile, and emotional. Actually moreso than any other group of people that I've ever interacted with. More emotional than women who are on their monthly flow.
I never mean anything negatively when I post it, but often times my posts are seen as negative, and people see them in the worst possible light. Could be because I'm CIS.
I'm still trying to understand this karma thing, or whatever.
I'm definitely not a troll, and if it is any constillation, if that's you as your sig, I find you attractive.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 10:48:57 AM
Really O_o?
Well to tell you the truth, i was actually moderated, once, for getting a little too sexually explicit. It was just a warning though. And I've actually recieved angry hate mail from a MtF Transexual on this site. Despite not even, having interacted with her on the forums. She kind of sounded angry that I'm a CIS, she said that I don't belong here. Understandable I guess.
And I agree, you guys n' gals do seem very, very fragile, and emotional. Actually moreso than any other group of people that I've ever interacted with. More emotional than women who are on their monthly flow.
I never mean anything negatively when I post it, but often times my posts are seen as negative, and people see them in the worst possible light. Could be because I'm CIS.
I'm still trying to understand this karma thing, or whatever.
I'm definitely not a troll, and if it is any constillation, if that's you as your sig, I find you attractive.
Yes, we can respond in anger if we perceive that we are being trivialized or attacked. It is a response that some of us learn to try to protect ourselves from being treated harshly yet again.
Some come to hate men, specifically because they often times are the source of the violence that so often befall us. And others personal opinions aside, you are welcome to stay as long as you play well with others (read the TOS).
We are emotional and sensitive often because of the situation we find ourselves in and additionally our ever changing hormonal landscape can take us on a roller coaster of emotions that we have little control over sometimes.
The Karma reputation system is represented by the thumbs up/down on the left side of the page below your avatar. A subscriber can either give a thumbs up if they respect/agree with the post you have made or they can give it a thumbs down if they disagree or feel you are being overly negative. It is only to be used sparingly and will be reviewed by Susan or the mods if they feel that someone is abusing the system by giving spurious karma.
Again, CRaSH, I don't perceive you as a troll either, but sometimes you can be a bit of a pill!
And no, that picture in my sig is a picture of Angie Zapata who was brutally murdered after she was discovered to be a transsexual. Her murderer was was convicted of a hate crime, murder in the first degree and sentenced to life imprisonment. More information is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angie_Zapata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angie_Zapata)
Each year, in November, there is the Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR) where we gather in cities across the world to read the names of the dead that have been murdered just that
year! Since we have been keeping records, over two thousand of us have been shot, stabbed, beaten to death, hung and decapitated because of who we are. Last year an
18 month old child was beaten to death because he acted like a girl! Often times the murder goes without investigation and the perpetrators are rarely caught and often times successfully claim "gay panic" as their defense and are either given light sentences or get off scott free.
This is in addition to the brutalization that ALL of us have endured in our journey. EVERY SINGLE ONE ON THIS LIST! Every person who attempts to change their life in this fundamental way can expect at sometime to be verbally abused, or beaten, or even killed. This is a dangerous path we walk, but we can do nothing else, but walk it or die.
Perhaps now you might have an inkling why we sometimes respond negatively or seem too sensitive.
If you wish to see what I look like, here is an early picture of me:
https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/Feb232011?authkey=Gv1sRgCJLtw9TUwrXOrAE#5576881298706784882 (https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/Feb232011?authkey=Gv1sRgCJLtw9TUwrXOrAE#5576881298706784882)
And here is a more recent version:
https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/BloggerPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCMKWifTy58jOuAE#5558958613189545378 (https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/BloggerPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCMKWifTy58jOuAE#5558958613189545378)
I may not be attractive in your eyes, but I am proud of myself and I feel my beauty inside and out.
-Sandy
Quote from: Sandy on April 08, 2011, 11:29:40 AM
Yes, we can respond in anger if we perceive that we are being trivialized or attacked. It is a response that some of us learn to try to protect ourselves from being treated harshly yet again.
Some come to hate men, specifically because they often times are the source of the violence that so often befall us. And others personal opinions aside, you are welcome to stay as long as you play well with others (read the TOS).
We are emotional and sensitive often because of the situation we find ourselves in and additionally our ever changing hormonal landscape can take us on a roller coaster of emotions that we have little control over sometimes.
The Karma reputation system is represented by the thumbs up/down on the left side of the page below your avatar. A subscriber can either give a thumbs up if they respect/agree with the post you have made or they can give it a thumbs down if they disagree or feel you are being overly negative. It is only to be used sparingly and will be reviewed by Susan or the mods if they feel that someone is abusing the system by giving spurious karma.
Again, CRaSH, I don't perceive you as a troll either, but sometimes you can be a bit of a pill!
And no, that picture in my sig is a picture of Angie Zapata who was brutally murdered after she was discovered to be a transsexual. Her murderer was was convicted of a hate crime, murder in the first degree and sentenced to life imprisonment. More information is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angie_Zapata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angie_Zapata)
Each year, in November, there is the Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR) where we gather in cities across the world to read the names of the dead that have been murdered just that year! Since we have been keeping records, over two thousand of us have been shot, stabbed, beaten to death, hung and decapitated because of who we are. Last year an 18 month old child was beaten to death because he acted like a girl! Often times the murder goes without investigation and the perpetrators are rarely caught and often times successfully claim "gay panic" as their defense and are either given light sentences or get off scott free.
This is in addition to the brutalization that ALL of us have endured in our journey. EVERY SINGLE ONE ON THIS LIST! Every person who attempts to change their life in this fundamental way can expect at sometime to be verbally abused, or beaten, or even killed. This is a dangerous path we walk, but we can do nothing else, but walk it or die.
Perhaps now you might have an inkling why we sometimes respond negatively or seem too sensitive.
If you wish to see what I look like, here is an early picture of me:
https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/Feb232011?authkey=Gv1sRgCJLtw9TUwrXOrAE#5576881298706784882 (https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/Feb232011?authkey=Gv1sRgCJLtw9TUwrXOrAE#5576881298706784882)
And here is a more recent version:
https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/BloggerPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCMKWifTy58jOuAE#5558958613189545378 (https://picasaweb.google.com/102287319312740148918/BloggerPictures?authkey=Gv1sRgCMKWifTy58jOuAE#5558958613189545378)
I may not be attractive in your eyes, but I am proud of myself and I feel my beauty inside and out.
-Sandy
Ohhhh.... You've raised a few questions concerning hate crimes towards T's.
I've seen women get violent when they find out that they're dating a T. but I've never heard of them killing them. Does it happen?
And I'll try to not be as abrasive for now on.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 12:13:55 PM
Ohhhh.... You've raised a few questions concerning hate crimes towards T's.
I've seen women get violent when they find out that they're dating a T. but I've never heard of them killing them. Does it happen?
And I'll try to not be as abrasive for now on.
I have not read anything about hate crimes directed toward trans people involving cis-females. Others may be more knowledgeable and are welcome to chime in.
It is common for MTF's to deeply conceal their feelings. They will hide it from everyone, including their spouses and partners. And when the MTF is discovered or confesses to these deeply hidden feelings, often times the spouse feels betrayed and angry. It isn't so much that they have feelings of being in the wrong gender that hurts the relationship, but the spouse feels betrayed because they couldn't be trusted with this delicate knowledge when often times the spouse may have confessed their deepest desires to them. This damages the relationship in a fundamental way and often leads to the dissolution of the relationship. Nine out of ten marriages end in divorce for us. It is truly the rare spouse who loves the person within and not the window dressing of the body. We celebrate those relationships and treasure them like gold.
I appreciate you taking the effort to moderate your statements. I think you may be surprised by the truly wonderful people here as we may be coming to be surprised by you.
Thank you for that.
-Sandy
Quote from: Valeriedances on April 08, 2011, 02:11:17 PM
Thank you Sandy for such a wonderful post. And thank you Crash for your interest in our community.
The violence, abuse and hate crimes are overwhelmingly from Cis Males, which is a reason we are sensitive and generally fearful. It doesnt matter whether the lady is beautiful or not, or passes perfectly, is post-op or not, just being ts/tg is enough. Beauty can be even more dangerous, just take a look at many of the women murdered. Many are extraordinary. It's so sad.
One thing we have going for us, we are strong because we know who we are.
One of the things that I research constantly is female on male domestic violence. Studies show that it is more common than male on female domestic violence. Yet mostly of what you hear about is the male abusers. Not to mention that a man in an abusive relationship has a rougher time, for various reasons.
This is why I'm particularly interested in female on transexual violence.
And..... You guys are afraid of me?
I just had a conversation with a man who had no idea... For the first time ever I didn't disclose, and he was pleasant. Just another person.
Not my type, but nice nonetheless. If he sneaks around my facebook long enough he will figure it out. This will prove to be an interesting experiment.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 02:18:24 PM
And..... You guys are afraid of me?
No! I'm a big girl. ;D
Crash,
Many here feel that you are an upsetting force. We are a touchy bunch, because every time we turn around, people ( cis people ) are trying to tell us we are nuts. That we should be given any treatment that will 'cure' us.
We don't need to be cured, except for the hormone treatments and surgeries. You, my friend, are coming across as one of those people. We are here to support each other.
If you can not be supportive and keep being an upsetting person, we will ask you to leave. We do not need some one who is antagonistic.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 08, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
Crash,
Many here feel that you are an upsetting force. We are a touchy bunch, because every time we turn around, people ( cis people ) are trying to tell us we are nuts. That we should be given any treatment that will 'cure' us.
We don't need to be cured, except for the hormone treatments and surgeries. You, my friend, are coming across as one of those people. We are here to support each other.
If you can not be supportive and keep being an upsetting person, we will ask you to leave. We do not need some one who is antagonistic.
I never once said that you guys n' gals need to be "cured", or are a problem.
Never.
Quote from: EmmaM on April 08, 2011, 02:25:04 PM
I just had a conversation with a man who had no idea... For the first time ever I didn't disclose, and he was pleasant. Just another person.
Not my type, but nice nonetheless. If he sneaks around my facebook long enough he will figure it out. This will prove to be an interesting experiment.
Yeah, not all CIS's are inately violent towards T's. I guess you guys are just afraid of what could happen.
Kind of like being a passenger on an airplane. You're probably not going to crash, you just fear the possibility.
Though I'm curious. What was different about this guy, that made you not want to disclose?
No you did not, but your attitude does. Every time you seem to make it all about you. Please alter the way you interact.
And any fear we have is based in fact. Every year we read off the names of those who have died, usually at the hand of another.
Too better understand this, look back at the civil right movement. Many African-Americans did at the hand of another.
Quote from: EmmaM on April 08, 2011, 02:26:13 PM
No! I'm a big girl. ;D
:D, well you're probably one of the few around here that doesn't have a negative view of me.
So I get where that comes from :).
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 02:52:32 PM
Yeah, not all CIS's are inately violent towards T's. I guess you guys are just afraid of what could happen.
Kind of like being a passenger on an airplane. You're probably not going to crash, you just fear the possibility.
Though I'm curious. What was different about this guy, that made you not want to disclose?
I try not to do negative. I try to disarm others because I will not fight, not normally'
This is a fluid thing, especially early on, and I have to try tol approach it from every angle.
I don't know, I guess I just wanted to try it so that I could see what it felt like. It feels good, but knowing he will find out somehow (I'm not hiding it) is a strange comfort. I don't want this to be the most important thing in my life forever. I just want to get through it and contribute to society like everyone else.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 08, 2011, 02:56:57 PM
No you did not, but your attitude does. Every time you seem to make it all about you. Please alter the way you interact.
And any fear we have is based in fact. Every year we read off the names of those who have died, usually at the hand of another.
Too better understand this, look back at the civil right movement. Many African-Americans did at the hand of another.
I understand that, but as i've said before I would not get violent if I found out that my GF is a T. Im not like many other CIS's.
And the only time that I make things about me is when I'm trying to give a CIS point of view, seeing that there are very few CIS's around here, I think that it brings a fresh perspective.
It also seems like a few of you dislike me just for being a CIS, I even got a personal message from one user implying that I should leave for not being "one of you".
ahemmm...........
I have watched this with fascination. It seems obvious to me that Crash will just never get it no matter how much you explain this to him, though I don't see him as particularly harmful either. You do know, I hope, that as long as you continue to bait him he will continue to rile you.
I, for one, am convinced that there are some things that can really only be learned by experiencing them. There are parts of this journey I never would have believed before I started on it. I bet you could say the same thing. And there are parts of other journeys I personally know nothing about. For many of those I am thankful.
The key, however, is respect. When we share what some of this is like with those for whom it is outside of their own experience, we should at least be granted that fundamental respect. And we should grant it to others. That is what seems to be lacking here.
The whole issue of "passing" or not is a very personal one. And yes, I detest that term. I never feel as if I am out to deceive anyone. In the final analysis, is there a right answer? Of course not. We find our own ways to survive this. For me it is quite important. For others, not all all. So be it. Perhaps we could learn from one another instead of taking pot shots.
Quote from: EmmaM on April 08, 2011, 03:06:10 PM
I try not to do negative. I try to disarm others because I will not fight, not normally'
This is a fluid thing, especially early on, and I have to try tol approach it from every angle.
I don't know, I guess I just wanted to try it so that I could see what it felt like. It feels good, but knowing he will find out somehow (I'm not hiding it) is a strange comfort. I don't want this to be the most important thing in my life forever. I just want to get through it and contribute to society like everyone else.
When you say "I wanted to try it".
What do you mean? A relationship? Or sex? Or some other form of intimancy?
Quote from: Kristi on April 08, 2011, 03:12:37 PM
ahemmm...........
I have watched this with fascination. It seems obvious to me that Crash will just never get it no matter how much you explain this to him, though I don't see him as particularly harmful either. You do know, I hope, that as long as you continue to bait him he will continue to rile you.
I, for one, am convinced that there are some things that can really only be learned by experiencing them. There are parts of this journey I never would have believed before I started on it. I bet you could say the same thing. And there are parts of other journeys I personally know nothing about. For many of those I am thankful.
The key, however, is respect. When we share what some of this is like with those for whom it is outside of their own experience, we should at least be granted that fundamental respect. And we should grant it to others. That is what seems to be lacking here.
The whole issue of "passing" or not is a very personal one. And yes, I detest that term. I never feel as if I am out to deceive anyone. In the final analysis, is there a right answer? Of course not. We find our own ways to survive this. For me it is quite important. For others, not all all. So be it. Perhaps we could learn from one another instead of taking pot shots.
What do you mean "bait him"? I'm not a troll. And I'm not taking shots at any of you.
Although some of you tend to react rather aggressively towards my posts.
Ok, the topic of this thread is "Does it honestly matter whether you pass as your gender or not?"
Lets get back to it and ease up on the person attacks.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
When you say "I wanted to try it".
What do you mean? A relationship? Or sex? Or some other form of intimancy?
Simple interaction as just another girl. After all, that is pretty much how I identify. As for now, Crash, I will be bowing out of this conversation :)
Quote from: EmmaM on April 08, 2011, 03:32:37 PM
Simple interaction as just another girl. After all, that is pretty much how I identify. As for now, Crash, I will be bowing out of this conversation :)
Oh, but you might want to consider joining a dating website for T's and CIS's.
There are a few males out there that'll treat you like a girl regardless of your current situation.
Lets not go there Crash.
We aren't a dating site.
And that is not on topic.
From the straight point of view I think it matters a little.
While at work I have seen some customers come in that appeared to be transgender. In my ignorance I could not tell if they were pre-op or post-op of any given sex.
That may seem trifle but it gave me a 50/50 chance of getting it right. If I did they would be overjoyed I reckon but if not they could go to management and my job would be history.
For this reason I would just smile, say an in general howdy if I thought they were male and hello young lady if I thought they were a female and just hi if the mix was too close to call. It would have been easier if they passed. But I will not laugh at, talk about or make snide remarks about those who either do not or are borderline.
Hope that helps from a straight view.
Quote from: Del on April 08, 2011, 03:54:33 PM
From the straight point of view I think it matters a little.
While at work I have seen some customers come in that appeared to be transgender. In my ignorance I could not tell if they were pre-op or post-op of any given sex.
That may seem trifle but it gave me a 50/50 chance of getting it right. If I did they would be overjoyed I reckon but if not they could go to management and my job would be history.
For this reason I would just smile, say an in general howdy if I thought they were male and hello young lady if I thought they were a female and just hi if the mix was too close to call. It would have been easier if they passed. But I will not laugh at, talk about or make snide remarks about those who either do not or are borderline.
Hope that helps from a straight view.
What was your job?
In the interest of not hijacking this thread any longer and perhaps having a civil discussion about our similarities and differences, might I suggest, CRaSH, that you start a thread of your own and we can continue the discussion there?
I will make no further off topic remarks.
-Sandy
Are you refering to the differences between T's, CIS's?
You're not really clear concerning the topic of this thread that you are proposing that I create.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96557.msg706349.html#msg706349 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96557.msg706349.html#msg706349)
Crash's thread.
Discuss what you want.
Quote from: -CRaSH- on April 08, 2011, 04:12:51 PM
Are you refering to the differences between T's, CIS's?
You're not really clear concerning the topic of this thread that you are proposing that I create.
Go to the "Just for us" section and open a topic called:
"-CRaSH-'s discussion corner"
Make a post that says something like:
"What's the difference between a cis/cis type relationship and a cis/T relationship"
And see what happens.
Or you could ask another question. What ever you like, really. It seems it doesn't take much from you to get us going.
-Sandy(I'm really trying to back out of this thread. Really!)
Alright, i get it now.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 08, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
Crash,
Many here feel that you are an upsetting force. We are a touchy bunch, because every time we turn around, people ( cis people ) are trying to tell us we are nuts. That we should be given any treatment that will 'cure' us.
We don't need to be cured, except for the hormone treatments and surgeries. You, my friend, are coming across as one of those people. We are here to support each other.
If you can not be supportive and keep being an upsetting person, we will ask you to leave. We do not need some one who is antagonistic.
Crash came into a thread I made (which I have since deleted because it was getting too stressful), he read the subject line which showed, without any doubt, that chicks with d*cks was offensive, at least to me and some others. Then proceeded to use that language in that thread. In my eyes, that was intentional disrespect and intentionally negative.
Quote from: Dana Lane on April 08, 2011, 04:54:22 PM
Crash came into a thread I made (which I have since deleted because it was getting too stressful), he read the subject line which showed, without any doubt, that chicks with d*cks was offensive, at least to me and some others. Then proceeded to use that language in that thread. In my eyes, that was intentional disrespect and intentionally negative.
I would coherently respond to this.
But I won't seeing as I may get modded for being off-topic.
If you want to discuss this issue with me, then come to my thread.
Sorry we have been prevented from discussing a very interesting topic. But it has apparently become impossible.
[sigh]
An ancient Disney musical, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow contained a song about The Headless Horseman. The lyrics are timeless:
"So don't try to figure out a plan
You can't reason with a headless man."
Quote from: Kristi on April 08, 2011, 09:10:54 PM
Sorry we have been prevented from discussing a very interesting topic. But it has apparently become impossible.
[sigh]
An ancient Disney musical, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow contained a song about The Headless Horseman. The lyrics are timeless:
"So don't try to figure out a plan
You can't reason with a headless man."
-_-....
I have decided that my straight answer is yes. Yes it is. ;D
Does it honestly matter whether you pass as your gender or not?
It matters to me... When I'm not seen as a woman it's very bothersome to me...
It matters a great deal to me, but at the end of the day if I don't pass then I'll still be trans and will have to deal with that.
Hi Crash :) Never has someones name been quite so apt considering the effect that you seem to have! :laugh:
Quote from: MillieB on April 08, 2011, 10:35:50 PM
It matters a great deal to me, but at the end of the day if I don't pass then I'll still be trans and will have to deal with that.
Hi Crash :) Never has someones name been quite so apt considering the effect that you seem to have! :laugh:
:laugh: True, I actually didn't mean to cause any of this.
Guess it's fate :D.
It matters a great deal to me. Its really important to me that I am seen as a guy. Its validating for me.
As others before me have mentioned, yes, passing is important to me for safety reasons. I get panicky when my mom refers to me as she in public to people I don't know. If only she knew how much my life could potentially be in danger when she says that, but I guess she just doesn't realize it.
The time I want to pass the most is using the bathroom. But then again lucky for me guys try to pay the least amount of attention possible to each other in mens rooms. So far I've been lucky. Hope things stay that way for me. =/
Passing is the single most important part of transition, because the GID clinic says it is. That means that if I do not pass, I will not be allowed to transition, and thus asking whether or not it matters is like asking "Does it matter if you breathe or not?" The act itself is unimportant, but without it, everything else falls apart.
I would have to agree with a few of the other FTM's here...sometimes it's more about safety then anything else...society see different as dangerous and because we are considered "different" we fall into that "dangerous" perception. When really it's just close minded stupidity.
I've had it happen to me...I had finished performing at a drag show..was still in "drag". friends decided to go to a straight bar in which I walked into the female restroom because the male room was full. I was thrown up against the wall and told I was in the wrong restroom. I put my hands up and said I am sorry must have taken a wrong turn and that wasn't enough for the woman. she shoved me in the chest realizing I had something there and then was completly confused which made it worse, she proceeded to leave the restroom walk up to the server point at me and say "that thing, is in the wrong restroom"
so yes passing is important no matter which way you look at it...I would rather be known as the man I am then a "thing" but maybe that's just me.
QuoteI would rather be known as the man I am then a "thing" but maybe that's just me.
I'm gonna venture to say that all of us probably have the same thought on that one. Personally, I'd rather be a thing then a girl, though. I realize that more and more every day, and maybe it's a side-effect of spending so much time with my best friend or maybe I'm finally growing the hell up, but I've learned to accept the fact that it just is.
All these bathroom horror stories make me me wish I had a titanium bladder or something, I pee damn near constantly. Luckily, my best friend is almost constantly with me when I'm out and he'll go into the bathrooms with me in case of incident.
Ninja skillz are what's needed - so you can pin them to the wall, and growl "Call me Sir when you say that..."
Nah, not really advocating violence, I just have wish-fulfilment from times I've been beaten up for not being man enough (and this was before I started trying not to be).
The post written by E sums up this thread brilliantly, which was:
Quote from: E on April 11, 2011, 05:43:09 AM
Passing is the single most important part of transition, because the GID clinic says it is. That means that if I do not pass, I will not be allowed to transition, and thus asking whether or not it matters is like asking "Does it matter if you breathe or not?" The act itself is unimportant, but without it, everything else falls apart.
However, I would put it this way:
QuotePassing is the single most important part of transition, and asking whether or not it matters is like asking "Does it matter if you breathe or not?" The act itself is unimportant, but without it, everything else falls apart.
Kind regards
Sarah B
I think this may be the place to impart some long boarding wisdom. On sunday i bailed at about 30mph coming down a hill...i'm told it was quite spectacular, but you know what, I rolled into the fall, bounced back up, asked if the board was okay, then my sunglasses, then went owwwwwww! Twenty minutes later i was back on the board, and an hour after that I hit another hill where i got up to similar speeds, and as i was taking the corner I picked up some speed wobble. I could have bailed again, but i kept at it and rode it out and it was awesome. See the thing is, i throw myself down hills on what is essentially a plank of wood with wheels, I accept that i may crash and as long as i can get back up on my feet i won't give into the fear of crashing. I'll get back on the board and conquor that fear. Bailing does hurt, but it's not the most important thing about longboarding and i certainly don't worry about it.
It's the same with being percieved as your correct gender, if whether you "pass" or not is always on your mind, then you're scared that you might not, if you're scared that you might not then you are giving into the fear. Which makes you nervous and people pick up on nerves and ask "why are they so nervous" and go looking for answers. Transitioning is hard, but you know what, chances are you will be mis-gendered from time to time, but you know what, that happens to plenty of cis people as well. All you have to do is roll with the fall, get back on your feet and carry on going, because if you can do that you'll be relaxed and if your relaxed you can truly enjoy being you. And if you truly enjoy being you people just accept you.
My advice for anyone transitioning is basically, by a longboard and learn about how to deal with the tumbles life sends your way occasionally that way, because the times when you're not kising pavemnet are simply sublime.
I'd like to add that passing helps my psychological state a lot. I was out with a friend and some of her friends recently who all read me as female. I told them I was a guy and trans. Most if not all of them started asking the absurd questions "are you getting the surgery?" "how do you have sex?" "what's it like" etc. I usually don't have the spoons to answer the questions and I just don't want to make my life about educating people.
I have to say that it is very difficult for me to live my life as I want to just like any other girl on the street when others are constantly trying to label me as the wrong gender.
I'm having a great day shopping or at work what have you and one person does the "Miss? Sir? Mam? Sir? Miss?" thing and boom I am forced to accept that no I'm not just any other girl. I'm a girl that is constantly at risk of being singled out from every other girl by an ignorant person possibly in the presence of others which can be horribly embarrassing.
Once I just told the person "pick one and move on."
I know who I am I don't care if others don't get it. That is their problem, not mine.
I prefer to pass so there is not a hassle of me having to hear she.
Quote from: From_Ariel on April 14, 2011, 07:17:31 AM
or at work what have you and one person does the "Miss? Sir? Mam? Sir? Miss?"Once I just told the person "pick one and move on."
That happens to me at work a lot, less often now, but when it does I wish I could tell them that. Sure, calling me ma'am makes me uncomfortable but having a person who can't decide just makes it worse.
Yes, it matters to me whether I pass as my gender because I want to be treated as "one of the guys" because I am one and yes, also for safety.