Quote from: Carlita on September 17, 2012, 08:39:15 AM
I guess the reasoning would be that if God existed, the least She could do would be give us a decent face-cream ...

God has a gender? News to me

A personal trainer? Honey - youtube and google are free (With internet access of course)! Girls who go that far are over dramatizing things and end up being the people most people make fun of when they are on those reality shows.

Yes transition is hard, it's expensive, it's HUGE in scope compared to the things 95% of the people on this earth (at least) have to put up with. BUT...  it's doable to way more people than some are giving credit for. Seriously yall, we are all more educated than most people on the difference of gender just due to the fact we live through what we do. Yes we are gonna clock, but we also pay attention way more than most people. Do you think the girl you pass in the supermarket is really thinking to herself "IS THAT A GUY OR A GIRL!" when she passes everybody, or is she going "OK I need 2 things of strawberry, some chocolate, some batteries..." ....

She's thinking more about what shes gonna do with the strawberries, chocolate, and batteries than she is trying to clock you!

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 17, 2012, 10:11:36 AM
God has a gender? News to me

Well, if we believe Kevin Smith in Dogma...

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 17, 2012, 10:15:10 AM

Well, if we believe Kevin Smith in Dogma...

Oh yes, loved that film.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 17, 2012, 10:11:36 AM
She's thinking more about what shes gonna do with the strawberries, chocolate, and batteries than she is trying to clock you!

OK - I give in. What is she going to do with strawberries, chocolate and batteries? And can you describe on here without getting banned?

Passing is about confidence not looks.  A simple walk through your local shopping mall will show that there are plenty of women out there with questionable looks.  A walk thought Telford town centre usually gives me confidenct that I'm doing not too bad!

Also, transition is hard work. Don't sit there and expect hormones to do all the work.  You need to look after your weight and skin. You need a regular beauty regime and if professional help is offered, do not turn it down.

Quote from: brc on September 17, 2012, 11:41:34 AM
OK - I give in. What is she going to do with strawberries, chocolate and batteries? And can you describe on here without getting banned?

She's going to make chocolate covered strawberries and her remote control has no batteries. Why would that get me banned? 

For those that think almost every trans woman is clockable... go ahead and google images "pixie cut" ... I'm sure you'll "clock" a ton of people

a) did not complete puberty, b) some kind of genetic magic, c) facial surgery. Or as Carlita put it: youth, beauty, money. Everyone I've met who is perfectly passable falls into at least one of those three categories. Life is brutal sometimes.

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 18, 2012, 10:59:06 PM
a) did not complete puberty, b) some kind of genetic magic, c) facial surgery. Or as Carlita put it: youth, beauty, money. Everyone I've met who is perfectly passable falls into at least one of those three categories. Life is brutal sometimes.

I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 18, 2012, 11:56:17 PM
I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.

slightly to mostly passable maybe, but sarah7 is talking about those who are the ones where no one would ever guess...

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on September 18, 2012, 11:56:17 PM
I just completely disagree. I seriously think HRT and some knowledge of how to do your hair and a lil bit of makeup will get many people to being passable.

Oh, I think that's definitely true, being passable is not that impossible. Though I'd add that voice is kind of a serious thing.

But I think there is a gap between the people who are unclockable and the people who are close and that has a lot to do with certain kinds of privilege. At least that's been my own experience. I fall into 2/3 of those categories.

Quote from: Ave on September 19, 2012, 12:02:11 AM
slightly to mostly passable maybe, but sarah7 is talking about those who are the ones where no one would ever guess...

That.

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 19, 2012, 12:03:30 AM
Oh, I think that's definitely true, being passable is not that impossible. Though I'd add that voice is kind of a serious thing.

But I think there is a gap between the people who are unclockable and the people who are close and that has a lot to do with certain kinds of privilege. At least that's been my own experience. I fall into 2/3 of those categories.

That.

I defintely agree about the privelige thing (and as much as my PC side hates to admit this, I've always had money for hormones since I was young and enough for vanity operations *albeit through sketchy methods*) although with transsexuals you can either come from a well off open minded family, or a rather poor close-minded one (if you're in the unclockable group *IMHO*).

In Scenario 1 (well-off open minded parents) you come out as trans, they take you to therapy, put you on blockers and TA DA! you're passable and unclockable.

In Scenario 2 you come from a disenfranchised close-minded family (it doesn't matter if you come out here, if you're flamboyant enough they WILL know) and you get kicked out at an early age. These tgirls do a lot of err...unpleasant things, but they get their *STREET* hormones early and before puberty (this could acgtually be a plus since they start estrogen earlier than even those on blockers and so they are shorter and petite *assuming they take estrogen at high enough dosages to cap bone growth*). Some even get medical grade silicone  injection *not advised as we all know* and they turn out great and flawless with large breasts and hips.

If they're lucky.

I know a lot of scenario 1 and scenario 2 girls in the "unclockable" group.

Guess which group has members that die more often? True, you die a pretty young ->-bleeped-<-.

But a pretty corpse is still a corpse.

I just realized I made this thread heavy.

I'm a gay, what can I say, we have a flair for the dramatic.

I guess I can kind of agree with that... but idk how many people on this planet are gonna study features that distinguish the passable from the unclockable. Also, most of the people that are gonna clock the very very passable girls are the ones in the know of transsexuality and have been exposed to it quite a bit (who are mostly much more tolerant / accepting) ... making it pretty moot to being clocked

Maybe "inability" is not exactly the right word for me... but "reality checks" keep happening; sure do happen.

I notice plenty of female looks of late - no male looks however... I keep telling myself it's an age thing (...unless I dress to the Ts... looks like being 'easy'?)

Those female looks need to be 'factored in' because as someone else mentioned before, women ALWAYS check out other women... and it MAY just be THAT - yet it may be a question of confusing them?
Take my age, then not any of the more usual big bottom curves coming with most females at a certain age, say past 50... or otherwise often a sort of unfit frailty... none that I wish to have, none that I project, none that is me.

So, given ones state of hormones = more or less secure in one's skin... add those female looks... it can just get a bit much at times. Do super handsome dudes get those sort of stares? No idea actually, but could well be...

At more 'secure days' (good hair days?) I just have to stop giggling; wiping a smirk of my face about all what appears silly attention. And quite bloody open attention/looks/semi-stares they are.

So that's my present take...
It STILL leaves me with the question (if I care to ask it...) do I pass - or don't I pass?

See what I mean...
Axélle

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 19, 2012, 01:53:51 AM
Maybe "inability" is not exactly the right word for me... but "reality checks" keep happening; sure do happen.

I notice plenty of female looks of late - no male looks however... I keep telling myself it's an age thing (...unless I dress to the Ts... looks like being 'easy'?)

Those female looks need to be 'factored in' because as someone else mentioned before, women ALWAYS check out other women... and it MAY just be THAT - yet it may be a question of confusing them?
Take my age, then not any of the more usual big bottom curves coming with most females at a certain age, say past 50... or otherwise often a sort of unfit frailty... none that I wish to have, none that I project, none that is me.

So, given ones state of hormones = more or less secure in one's skin... add those female looks... it can just get a bit much at times. Do super handsome dudes get those sort of stares? No idea actually, but could well be...

At more 'secure days' (good hair days?) I just have to stop giggling; wiping a smirk of my face about all what appears silly attention. And quite bloody open attention/looks/semi-stares they are.

So that's my present take...
It STILL leaves me with the question (if I care to ask it...) do I pass - or don't I pass?

See what I mean...
Axélle

you pass ^^. You have a very icy and exotic look about you.

Quote from: Ave on September 19, 2012, 02:02:38 AM
you pass ^^. You have a very icy and exotic look about you.

Thanks for the reality check... no wonder...

Maybe years in the world of business rubbed off?

Food for thought before getting depressed... on a 'bad hair day'

Exotic, icy, hum...
Axélle 

Personally I feel the combination of masculine face and feminine voice is kinda rediculous.

When I'm around people I always make sure that my voice is deep and masculine so as to match my appearance. I've seen it on youtube, a masculine faced transgender woman speaking with a very high pitched feminine voice, threw me off a little as subconciously I wasn't expecting it - this is the same way people would feel if I spoke to them in real life with a feminine voice.

Masculine man + high pitched voice = weak, submissive, low T, didn't go through puperty correctly
Feminine man + low pitched voice = hot, dominant, good leader, fully grown man who knows how to take care of himself

As for hair, some face shapes simply do not look good with long hair.

Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AM
Personally I feel the combination of masculine face and feminine voice is kinda rediculous.

True. So is the combination of feminine appearance and masculine voice. Both need to match.

Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMWhen I'm around people I always make sure that my voice is deep and masculine so as to match my appearance. I've seen it on youtube, a masculine faced transgender woman speaking with a very high pitched feminine voice,

And I have seen the opposite on youtube - a passable MTF who has a deep masucline voice. She passes until she opens her mouth.

Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMthrew me off a little as subconciously I wasn't expecting it - this is the same way people would feel if I spoke to them in real life with a feminine voice.

Now you are projecting what you think onto others. They may not think as you do.

I am not brilliantly passable, I am tall for a woman so I speak with a lower tone than the female average - mine is 180Hz, the female average is about 221Hz - but my pitch is still way above the male voice down at 110Hz and my intonation is female and so is my resonance.

Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AMMasculine man + high pitched voice = weak, submissive, low T, didn't go through puperty correctly
Feminine man + low pitched voice = hot, dominant, good leader, fully grown man who knows how to take care of himself

What are these? Your opinions of how people should be?

Look, have the voice you want but remember this - if you do not give OTHER people what THEY expect then they will not treat you as you wish. You might think your fem voice is too high pitched because you are used to your male voice, and I certainly went through that stage but I got used to my new tone and now I hate going back to my old one. If you want to pass you have to supply people what they expect to make them treat you correctly. They will not put in any effort on their part - people are lazy - so we, the transfolk - have to do all the work

In short the upshot is this

- if you look non-mascuilne and have  what OTHER people consider a female voice you will pass

- if you look non-mascuilne and have  what OTHER people consider a male voice you will not pass

Quote from: 8888 on September 19, 2012, 04:18:40 AM
As for hair, some face shapes simply do not look good with long hair.

Indeed. Which is why my hair is bobbed. Long hair makes my face look too somber.

"if you look non-mascuilne and have  what OTHER people consider a female voice you will pass"

I'd go much further than this

Many years ago I went to a TV do at a hotel. Wives and partners were also there. I was talking to someone and one of the wives was talking within earshot. We were drawn into the conversation and chatted, for a good hour, myself and three other t girls and the woman.

The woman got up and said she was heading off for bed, as she did so she giggled and suddenly for a millisecond, the voice failed and we realised she was going to bed on her own. As one, our jaws hit the floor.

We had been talking to probably the least passable girl in the  room (she was probably in her seventies, had no make up on ,about two inches of hair was showing under her wig which had slipped back) and we had been totally taken in, but the voice COULDN'T have been a mans.

voice is everything

As a frequent traveler to Thailand (unrelated to SRS lol), as well as other cultures such as India where third sex people are accepted, passable and unpassable becomes like trying to spot a toupee: you never see all the passable ones because, well, they've passed! And if you clock them, by definition, they don't. So every Tgirl you see is by definition unpassable. No?