This might be good for me actually. My father's family is very Catholic and is the side I'll have a major problem with when I come out. I've dreamt for years of telling him off. This may actually spark the conversation at Christmas dinner that sets me off. And it IS possible at Christmas dinner. Another one set them off on an Easter dinner over gays.

I'm also very conscious that some members at Susan's have religious belief that is integral to them.

How 'bout the rights of those who believe in reason, rational thought, and the unfolding enlightenment of science and who work to advance that over superstition and metaphysics?  How come we're always forced to politely suck it and basically fake it along with them while people talk about their imaginary friend?  Why are those who have been profoundly and deeply hurt by religion always being told they have to respect those who do nothing but apologize for it. 

Why is a guy who is dressed like Charlemagne and telling everyone that God has made him the Holy Roman Emperor locked up, but the other guy dressed strait out of Medieval Europe taken seriously when he's basically saying the same thing in similar vestments? 

So how come they get post, after post, after post, to preach it, and the rest of us just have to sit, listen, and nod and basically shove it when it comes to our talking about what it is that we think we know?

You are talking about people who think that an imaginary sky god watches over everything in the universe, created it all, and controls it all - despite absolutely no proof of that being true.  Fewer and fewer people believe that.  Heck, more people tour the great churches of Europe than attend them.

What would Cindy - the medical professional - do if someone walked in and started telling you that his 'friend', who speaks to him, who listens to him, who created and controls every aspect of the entire universe, that his friend - that no one can see - his friend Ed, is your Lord and Savior and you should bow down low before Ed and try to please Ed least you be put into a lake of fire for all eternity for spanking it to a Victoria's Secret catalog.  How's it any different if you change Ed's name to the name of the guy across the street from me who makes my Chimichanga (divine though Jesus's Chimies are)?

If Cindy were asked all the things that can help people with TG were would 'trust god' come in the list of medicine, psychiatry/psychology, surgery and chemistry?  Would you ever recommend such a thing to anyone as a medical professional?

Okay, while I don't agree that all religious people are loonies, I must agree that religion is unfairly favored in today's society in the US, despite the 1st amendment promising no law to be created that would be detrimental or favoring to any religion.

However, as a nonbeliever, you've got to be used to that by now. 

I didn't create the Universe Tekla, but I can tell you for certain i have been in the presence of evil spirits, demons or negative energy, whatever you'd like to call it. If you had been through the things I had been as a child and as a teenager you'd be looking for some protection againts evil.

But just because I can feel good and evil, and know we are stuck in the middle of a battlefield, does not mean I am irrational. I can accept science and reason all at the same time. Please don't put me or other faith based people in a box. I am in 100% agreement with you that the pope is wrong about his ideas about gender.

But there are people who don't have any kind of religion whatsoever, and they can be just as ignorant and prejudice against anyone.

TBH as someone who has taken **** from both sides - atheists as well as religious people at some point in her life.

I could not care less as long as I am accepted for who I am.

As for the Pope's opinion and comments - I don't agree with it.

Ok, please don't take the following as a bash; I am just sincerely curious, so if any religious individuals read this, please try to respond to it as respectfully as possible.

Let's say some adult guy, let's call him Steve, goes to the polar bear exhibit at the zoo and starts preaching about how the polar bear exhibit is a magically disguised monitoring base for Santa to watch people and check to see who's naughty or nice. He claims that he is somehow immune to the spell and is thus the only person that can see through it. Steve then says that the polar bear exhibit must be destroyed for the sake of allowing people their privacy from Santa's peeping eyes.

The next thing you know, two guys dressed in white, one with a straightjacket and the other with a supply of neurodepressants come by and say, "Steve, we're going to take you to a nice, soft place now, okay?"

In this scenario, Steve is using some religion-esque claim to justify destruction of a polar bear exhibit. The Pope is using religion to justify hate, and past popes used it to justify WAR.

As for my question: what's the difference between any religious individual and Steve? Of course, other than:
-Religious people being more numerous.
-Religion being so engrained in society that no one dare challenge it for the sake of political correctness.

I'd appreciate an answer. Once again, I don't want to bash any religion. I'm just playing devil's advocate. (No pun intended)
_________________________________________________________________________

I don't think either side is better than the other. In fact, it's irrelevant. You say God created the universe, so who created God? The point is that no matter what you believe in, you must acknowledge that, at some point, something must have come from nothing at least once at some point in time.

Therefore, since we all share the common background of nothingness, can't we all just hold hands and get along? 

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 11:47:20 AM
If Cindy were asked all the things that can help people with TG were would 'trust god' come in the list of medicine, psychiatry/psychology, surgery and chemistry?

Very good point. Next time someone accuses me of being mentally ill, I may just have to counter with this.

Unlike Steve, I would never condone destroying anything or anyone because of faith. If you met me in real life you would know you could feel safe around me, I would offer my help, my love, my encouragement and my support and even give my life for you if you were in danger. That's just how I roll.

But your right people have done some stupid things in the name of God, but again so have people who just do it simply to do it.

Thank you, Shawn. Now, if you don't mind, what about Steve's claim to see magic spells and Santa vs. a religious individual's "visions" of God and angels? How are those different?

Once again, I'm just a curious individual. Don't take me trying to understand the other side's perspective as being hateful. It's what makes me a good debater. 

The only demon/satan/evil is the ignorant creature bearing 46 chromosomes.

"Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!"

Yawn.

@shawna I wouldn't even say the devil is evil. he is the one according the bible who gave us knowledge equal to gods. Not only that he basically showed us that when you make a bet to ruin someone's life, god will abide and ruin that guys life. Poor lot. Poor lucifer.

Personally to each their own, however I see the god as being evil and satan as being a misunderstood entity.

Quote@shawna I wouldn't even say the devil is evil. he is the one according the bible who gave us knowledge equal to gods. Not only that he basically showed us that when you make a bet to ruin someone's life, god will abide and ruin that guys life. Poor lot. Poor lucifer.

Personally to each their own, however I see the god as being evil and satan as being a misunderstood entity.

Flawless Logic,

except everyone can pretty much agree on whats universally evil

Murder
Rape
Violence
Suffering

Satan does not care about you at all, he is selfish and wants you be as miserable as he is. Satan decided he was better than God who created him. He was a little kid throwing a tantrum at his parents or even worse attacking his Father. He wants to sift you as wheat. Oh My goodness.

Quote from: peky on December 22, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
The only demon/satan/evil is the ignorant creature bearing 46 chromosomes.

Eh Humans can have up to  49, XXXXX syndrome

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 22, 2012, 02:35:11 PM
Flawless Logic,

except everyone can pretty much agree on whats universally evil

Murder
Rape
Violence
Suffering

Satan does not care about you at all, he is selfish and wants you be as miserable as he is. Satan decided he was better than God who created him. He was a little kid throwing a tantrum at his parents or even worse attacking his Father. He wants to sift you as wheat. Oh My goodness.

The history is written by the winners, or in this case worshipers of the winner. What I read in the bible lead me to believe that god did all those things.

He murders entire towns.
He allows rape to go on and on.
He is violence incarnate.
He certainly doesn't care if we suffer.

God does not care. He is utterly selfish and wants nothing more than blind worship. Satan questioned this and was sent below. Yes he hates us, if only because we still give blind worship to the very being whom he questioned. personally I worship neither, both are demigods at best. Nothing all powerful. Just little children with a bit of power, nothing more.

I'm sorry but it really hurts me when you say God is evil, you have the right to your opinions, but it still hurts me.

No need for the hostility. God would frown upon that. Wouldn't he?

The topic is about the speech made by the Pope, please stick to that. Also please refrain from posting anything that may be construed as a personal attack. Thank you, hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Snowpaw on December 22, 2012, 02:51:26 PM
No need for the hostility. God would frown upon that. Wouldn't he?

I am not being hostile , I already said I don't agree with the Pope at all, and yet I believe in God, I know hes full of bull when it comes to gender.

I apologize if it appeared that way.

I took my questions to another thread.