Pre transition I used to "freak" when I saw an unpassable TS/TG/TV on the media or in the street .... how would it cloud my family, friends, and colleagues opinion of me when I came out ??

Would I be seen as such an embarassing spectacle too ?

When I did transition I looked, presented, and acted so naturally and convincingly as a woman, that I felt I was representing myself, and myself only, not some "Gerry Springer" freak image of TG ....

Family, friends, colleagues laugh with me at the "unpresentables" seeking out media attention as all they see in me is "woman", I'm not "tarred" by any association ....

Think that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

Laura x

I think we need to step back and look at the point Melissa's trying to get across. Instead of getting down on her for feeling this way, we should help her figure out WHY she feels this way and how to overcome it. Obviously, she knows it's a bad thing to feel this way and wants to become a better person by ridding herself of the negative thoughts towards un-passable TSs (if that's indeed what the person being referred to was).

On that note, I commend you for making an effort to get past your judgments. Maybe next time you see someone and are fairly positive she/he's a TS and doesn't pass so well, go up and strike up a conversation. Don't bring up the fact that you noticed that they didn't pass too well, but just talk about everyday normal stuff. Once you leave the conversation, you will get a better understanding about how that person feels, what they're like, and have a more intimate friendly relationship to that person which might give you a boost of confidence in knowing that she is a good-hearted friendly person. Therefore, the next time you are presented with an un-passable TS you will recall your incident and associate that with it. I think that whenever people can associate a positive feeling during a bad or difficult situation it makes it easy to overcome and look at the reality of the situation instead of your personal beliefs.

This has actually helped me out a few times. When I felt unconfortable in a situation, I would do something spontaneous and good-hearted that would allow me a point in time to recall when in that situation again so I feel better next time and hopefully aren't presented with the same fears as before.

I hope I helped at all. Again, you are brave for even posting these feelings on the board. Good luck

Sarah

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 15, 2007, 07:34:31 PM
Pre transition I used to "freak" when I saw an unpassable TS/TG/TV on the media or in the street .... how would it cloud my family, friends, and colleagues opinion of me when I came out ??

Would I be seen as such an embarassing spectacle too ?

When I did transition I looked, presented, and acted so naturally and convincingly as a woman, that I felt I was representing myself, and myself only, not some "Gerry Springer" freak image of TG ....

Family, friends, colleagues laugh with me at the "unpresentables" seeking out media attention as all they see in me is "woman", I'm not "tarred" by any association ....

Think that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

Laura x

I think I have a huge HONESTY issue. I don't hesitate to post my true feelings here and I see some here seem to bolster themselves up by bringing me down. I spend four-six hours a day in therapy, it's pretty easy for me to recognize this behavior.

QuoteI think I have a huge HONESTY issue. I don't hesitate to post my true feelings here and I see some here seem to bolster themselves up by bringing me down. I spend four-six hours a day in therapy, it's pretty easy for me to recognize this behavior.

Just because people might post an opposing opinion does not mean that they are trying to bring you down.

I think the lesson in life, but especially for people here at Susan's, is that we all need to stop caring about what other people think, say or feel about us. Why should any of us care if someone does not care for how you look, what you think, or what you say? What does it matter?  The answer is nothing. Life is too darn short to worry about what people think of you, if they like you, or whether they will acknowledge you.

I spent the better part of twenty years and a small fortune dealing with family and childhood trauma, and it all comes down to this. When you care about what other people think or feel about you, you give them power over you. When you wait for them to acknowledge you, you give them power over you. When you modify yourself or your behavior to make people like you, or to be accepted, than you give them power over you.

Self acceptance can only come within. There will always be someone willing to reject you, or looking to dis you, if you are willing to play their victim.

I already know all that, I am in recovery, remember? And I also know when someone is trying to bring me down to elevate themselves. It doesn't bother me in the least because it's their illness, not mine. But I feel the need to point out the behavior when I see it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 06:39:17 PM
I am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

I am in early recovery and still trying to perfect the skill of not taking other people's inventory. That is one reason these feelings bother me. I am trying to live with the philosophy that I am no better or no worse than anyone else but it is easier said than done.

In my opinion, if we recognise that we have built-in prejudices and instead of just maintaining them actually try to work against them, then we are making progress.

If you are trying to go beyond your gut feelings and are questioning why exactly you feel the way you do then I for one think that's worth congratulating.

MVER XXX

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

You feel uncomfortable because the 'unpassable' is society's idea of a transsexual, obviously, because they don't 'see' the passable ones. It's something all minorities have to deal with. Many blacks have told me they are embarrassed of Al Sharpton and others who seem to 'represent' their race. They let me know in no uncertain terms that 'he doesn't speak for me'. After the Virginia Tech tragedy, some Asians were afraid it would taint American society's view of them.
Since mainstream society's current view of a transsexual is the proverbial 'man in a dress', you become uncomfortable when confronted with someone who fits the stereotype. And yes, that reaction is normal.

Melissa, what is it about yourself that makes you feel that way? I'll be honest and say what I feel. Its my problem when I see a non passable TS and cringe and I am a bad person for feeling that way.

It is selfish to say, but I feel that every person a non passable TS encounters will burn an image in those peoples mind that TS are men in women's clothes and they will think all TS are like her. I am probably wrong about that and many good people just go on about their lives and do not care. That non passable TS is probably ok with who they are. I am the one with the problem not them. So what is it in me that has an issue? Am I so insecure in who I am that I would let knowing or being seen with a non passable TS make me cringe? Is it that I am so selfish that I am worried about them being in the same classification or having the same label as me is going to hurt my chances in society? Probably. But then again, the issue is with me, not them.

Quote from: Sarah B on June 15, 2007, 07:58:10 PM
I think we need to step back and look at the point Melissa's trying to get across. Instead of getting down on her for feeling this way, we should help her figure out WHY she feels this way and how to overcome it.

I agree, and think she's doing a good thing thinking through her thoughts and feelings. Her feelings are as many would say, perfectly normal. Even my therapist and physician have problems working with unpassable ts' because from their experience they know this transwomen will have problems, socially, publically and personally. They do their best to try and make the transwoman understand and cope. And in the end it's simply up to each of us individually to get through our life as best we can with what we've been dealt. Sometimes the best thing is simply accept it as it is without judgement, but maybe a smile for the diversity of people, and the courage some have to be different in the face of reality.

--Susan--

I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction. Completing transition, working on my recovery and getting ready for SRS are huge tasks to take on. I just need to keep working on it.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 16, 2007, 09:59:03 AM
I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction. Completing transition, working on my recovery and getting ready for SRS are huge tasks to take on. I just need to keep working on it.

you and me both. I'm still drinking though. I applaud you. it's very hard not only being TS, but to struggle with addiction as well. Good luck to you, Melissa.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 16, 2007, 09:59:03 AM
I didn't know how insidious this disease (alcoholism/addiction) is. As my AA sponsor (a sponsor in AA is a mentor who guides you through recovery) said, stopping the use is only the first step, one must work through the steps to deal with the root causes of the addiction.

I really respect your efforts Melissa ... luckily I've never touched the "hard" drugs, and thought transition would alleviate the root causes of my big alcohol problem.
 
Of course it didn't, ("first the man he takes the drink, and then the drink he takes the man" sic), and I still use alcohol as the prop to fend off my insecurities, confidence issues, stresses, depressions, and loneliness; in rough periods at levels that would put guys twice my size under the table.  I just don't dare tell anyone the truth about the level of my consumption which borders on dependancy. I'm afraid of seeking help, and nobody suspects as I can just about manage a good career, have an OK social life, and seem sober to the outside world.
______________________________________________________________________________

When I said that

QuoteThink that if you have a problem with TVs / crossdressers / unpassable TS women sharing your public space then you have a huge confidence issue ?

I was generalizing and not excluding myself. 

Sometimes I pop into my local TV/TS group as they "live" just a mile from my front door and I want to offer my support. 

Having lost the nice venue they had they're now stuck with a bleak upstairs room in the local "International Soliarity Centre" which has a nice bar with global food, organic beer and wine, and often good music downstairs.  As a predominantly TV group of only about eight that evening we decided to "brave it" to find a table in the bar ...

... I who would happily go into the seediest of city bars on my own found I had huge problems being seen in public sitting an drinking with a group of soo obvious "men in frocks", even in a really liberal, right on, politically correct venue ... I almost chickened out ... WHY ?

I've supported friends in their transition, while they were still in "guy mode", with the constant thought "would I want to be seen in public with her once she goes full time ?".

Its all about insecurity, and fear of being ridiculed "by association", especially as I've survived transition without once being "sir'd", without anyone being anything other than really really friendly to me, or a malicious or denigratory comment being uttered.  If such an incident happened now it would really shake me up.

This spring myself, my TS best friend, and her husband were drinking with maybe 60 others outside a Soho bordering pub, Soho being the "gay village" of London.  What passes by but three very obvious TVs "dressed" for an evening out ... everybody turns their heads and looks in amusement ... but nobody sees the two TS women chatting and drinking in their midst !  What does that say ?

Laura x

QuoteI am uncomfortable being uncomfortable. That's the point.

Melissa,

I think that by saying this you're already further along in the process of figuring it out. Before we can solve a problem, we need to recognize our issues first, and as we all know, that first step is hard. There have been a number of threads on the message board this week that have gotten me thinking a lot about internalized transphobia, in what ways I might have internalized it, and how it ultimately keeps me from fully being myself. It's good if discussions such as these can help us discover more about ourselves and grow.

zythyra

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 16, 2007, 06:02:47 PMsnip

I think letting go is the first and most important step, a while back while for various reasons I was in a ->-bleeped-<- bar dressed extremely androgynously, like, no bra , t-shirt and jeans, no makeup and with kinda messy hair.

In that time there I had a couple of people comming up to me asking if i were FTM/MTF/boy/girl, at the time I was rather drunk and had other things on my mind, one guy came up to me and told me I he didn't know what I was but he thought i had a male face (which confused the ->-bleeped-<- out of me I couldn't facially pass for male without a fake beard) so I was like "what!?!?, I'm a girl" in utter shock and horror, he replied "So why do you want to be a guy?" again I replied "I don't, I'm just here with a friend", annother kept pestering me about what was in my knickers so a turned to him spread my legs and raised an eyebrow he then said "that's a shame, I'm attracted to you but I like cock and balls".

It could be because i have such confidence in the fact that i'm just a girl that i'm able to forget I'm TS even when people question my gender, it's like i was shocked that they would ask that.

hypothetical: if for whatever reason I decided to socialise with a group of TV's then I don't think it would effect how well I pass, even though i'm like 6'1, I'd be such a contrast to them, if anyone questioned my gender I'd first reply in shock and a little outrage that someone would insinuate that, it would be a "wtf you thought i was a ->-bleeped-<-!?" moment.

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely, you wouldn't do that, what would be the point.
Its just because your in a ->-bleeped-<- bar that people will even ask you such a question
cause I know you pass :-).

Last week, I went past a couple of young guys making flirting comments at me as I approached my corner store, one even held the door for me, but when I went past him, they saw how tall and heard a hush, when I was inside, I heard they erupt in a loud chatter. As I exited, they made not nice comments, which is very strange since seconds earlier they thought I was way hot!!! If it was one guy, I would have faced him down and told him, hey, you've never seen a tall women before? But, they were 6 guys of 16, there was no point, so I just ignored them.

The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

Quote from: Mawd on June 17, 2007, 02:27:08 AM

Quote from: Laura Eva B on June 16, 2007, 06:02:47 PMsnip

I think letting go is the first and most important step, a while back while for various reasons I was in a ->-bleeped-<- bar dressed extremely androgynously, like, no bra , t-shirt and jeans, no makeup and with kinda messy hair.

In that time there I had a couple of people comming up to me asking if i were FTM/MTF/boy/girl, at the time I was rather drunk and had other things on my mind, one guy came up to me and told me I he didn't know what I was but he thought i had a male face...

Why do you care about what drunks think about you in a "->-bleeped-<-" bar. I went to

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely,

No one passes absolutely. A few come close.

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM


The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny. I am always thrilled when people comment how tall I am 6 foot because it means even though they notice my height I am passing muster. I will say something like, I am German, all the women in my family are over six feet to seal the deal.

They didn't have time to examine me, since I entered the store a fraction of a second after I went past them. Its truly the height thing and its not for all people. For most people, they don't believe my ID is me and take crowded public transport (which I consider the ultimate passing tesT) where people are in my face for a long time with no problem, so I've got no problem with passing in a general sense. I get "read" usually from far away (60 feet and more) or from the back, not from my front.  These people would probably "read" tall GG's also if they made their way around here!! So, I don't worry about it too much.

In some people's head its impossible for a women to be that tall no matter what else they see. Young boys in groups are at the macho stage so proving their masculinity is so important to them... Tall women are very rare aound here, I've only seen it a few time myself.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny...

Somehow I find this difficult to understand. I routinely see tall women and no one seems to assume or comment about them. I've met (as employees in stores) many tall and big women, some even quite or near masculine looking, and no one seems to be making fusses. My therapist says it's because most transpeople are more aware and sensitive to the signs than the rest of the population, and I find this a valid perspective as I routinely have to go to the Capitol Hill area in Seattle where many transpeople live (because of two local universities/colleges and gay community). Some are obvious, but no one pays attention to them. And you can easily make the argument in many women sports, tall and fit women rule, and I don't see anyone commenting about them.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 01:27:23 PM
Why do you care about what drunks think about you in a "->-bleeped-<-" bar. I went to

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM

Mawd, the outrage only works if there's a good chance they could be wrong.
If you aren't sure you pass absolutely,

No one passes absolutely. A few come close.

Quote from: Keira on June 17, 2007, 03:09:16 AM


The whole thing was strange, being attracted to me and then repulsed... I still don't really understand; seemingly, it was *impossible* for them for a women to be that tall (I was wearing 2 inch clogs so I was 6 foot 2).

In San Francisco, a six-foot woman is assumed to be trans. Maybe that's true in other trans-aware places. Once they notice your size, they will scrutinize you to look for other signs. Few can stand up to that scrutiny. I am always thrilled when people comment how tall I am 6 foot because it means even though they notice my height I am passing muster. I will say something like, I am German, all the women in my family are over six feet to seal the deal.

Why do I care what peeps think in a ->-bleeped-<- bar? I don't like being out to people, at all under any circumstance. the only reason to want to be out at a ->-bleeped-<- bar is if you are looking to pick up a ->-bleeped-<-.

I pass absolutely, there is nothing that could or would out me as transsexual short of a genital inspection, I can stand up to any scrutiny.

Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them. People here are very trans-aware, I have dozens of discussions with other transwomen about this. Women over 6' are something like 1% of the female population.

QuoteI pass absolutely, there is nothing that could or would out me as transsexual short of a genital inspection, I can stand up to any scrutiny.

Sorry to differ but no one passes absolutely. Nice to have confidence though.