The point I'm making is that by that logic no natal girl passes 100% for female, it's very possible for TS's to pass to a better degree than natal girls, I certainly know plenty who have had their gender questioned more than I have, I know the vibe which you speak of I just don't think it's an absolute constant and if you don't have that vibe you have plausable universal deniability, anyone who would think i'm TS would also think allot of natal girls are too, simple as, this is not an impossible absolute, no one is ever 100% under any situation taken for their gender if they're not trans however they just correct people when someone makes the mistake the same way I do.

This is a difficult subject to reconcile with ones own feelings and as such I have stayed out of the debate for now.

Firstly I admire anyone who has the courage and drive to transition, no matter how succesful they are (or not) in fully integrating into society. It is a difficult thing all of us face the moment we make that decision and is influenced by many factors such as age, income, family, location.

The second point is that yes, I do feel uncomfortable when I see someone (or I am with someone) that obviously has issues with passing, because it draws attention to myself, which I wish to avoid. The last time this happened was a fair while ago now and I was asked by 2 friends (who had issues with their voice) to go and ask on their behalf in some stores, that made me feel uncomfortable.

But I guess we all go through that stage, looking maleish, becomming more androgynous, then looking more feminine as HRT kicks in etc. I know in my own life it took a good 6 months into transition before I stopped getting called sir (It is also a confidence thing as well, removal of facial hair, speach etc).

Feminizing Facial Surgery was an important step for me and I did this before I started my RLE and after a year on hormones. BUT the effects take time, my Jaw line didn't look like I hoped until nearly 12 months after surgery and until further fat redistribution and muscle wastage took place, but my pass rate improved considerably after FFS. However FFS did nothing for my wide shoulders andlarger hands and feet. Some people will never be able to afford FFS (or wish to have it) and this will obviously have an effect in passing.

Not all GG's pass fully as women either, I have a friend who is Lesbian, very butch, has thinning hair, cropped short and wears no make up, she looks at times very masculine and is also tall at 5ft 11 (for a woman)

The one thing that has worried me recently was on my last trip to Thailand, where I met people who where having SRS, but made no effort to look, sound feminine. One even told me that they where not having facial hair removal, another wasn't bothering with speach therapy (and had a deep voice). Their Choice, but in my book, just throwing on a pair of hipster jeans, T-Shirt, tying your hair back in a pony tail and having a neo-vagina, does not a woman make. They where unpassable. Of more concern was that they considered this to be societies problem and not theirs, they should be accepted and not the other way around.

So yes it does make me uncomfortable being around people who either dont pass for the circumstances I have described above OR dont make any attempt to pass.

The later does us all no favours.

Buffy

PS Given Melissa 90299's ability to spot a TS a million miles away, remind me never to go to America, less alone SF

Quote from: SusanK on June 18, 2007, 07:53:26 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 17, 2007, 06:59:24 PM
Susan, why do you think people make a fuss just because they see someone who they read as transsexuals, I see two-three transsexuals a day, they never have a clue that I clocked them.

Personally, while I've read personal and news stories about discrimination toward transpeople, I personally haven't seen people make a fuss about a non-passable transwoman, and I've seen enough where I live. And personally I'm not bothered, it's their life and they deserve the respect to be treated as a human being. It's intolerance, overt or covert, that hurts, no matter who, when and where. And it doesn't matter if they're trans, transient, disabled, retarded, whatever, it's about respecting individual dignity.

Please understand it's not meant to be harsh, I just don't understand why you make it a statement you can "tell" a transwoman.

Because I can, I guess it's just another one of my unusual perceptive abilities.

QuoteI don't understand why it even matters. But I do have some questions. If you met them, did you smile or say "Hello" at them. Or did you walk away not wanting to know or be seen with them? What do you think they thought of you? What do you think other (non-trans) people think of you when they see or met you? Or do you care?

If it didn't matter why are you responding? As far as poorly passing transwomen,once I see them, I divert my eyes. There is an interesting dichotomy when two highly passable transwomen (one being me) pass each other going opposite directions, in almost all cases, we both divert our eyes to avoid acknowledging that one clocked the other.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 02:54:50 AM
Because I can, I guess it's just another one of my unusual perceptive abilities.

If it didn't matter why are you responding? As far as poorly passing transwomen,once I see them, I divert my eyes. There is an interesting dichotomy when two highly passable transwomen (one being me) pass each other going opposite directions, in almost all cases, we both divert our eyes to avoid acknowledging that one clocked the other.

To the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

To the second, you initiated the post by stepping to the stage and announcing your feelings and thoughts on the matter and then asked for responses. If you can clock other ts, then don't you think other ts' easily clock you along with many other people who simply don't care about your status?

Why are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

I have to say that you have touched on one of the sensitive issuess between ts' and cd's, and the possibility that many ts' are uncomfortable with nonpassable transwomen whether they're cd or ts. But it's really a individual issue with each of us as we have to learn tolerance and acceptance of the diversity of the community. We seem to be ok at events because it's out of the public eye, but in public, the rules seems to change. It's our choice, but there always is someone better than us, so making judgements of people is relative to the person.

It's just something each of us have to resolve and practice. Best wishes to you.

--Susan--

Quote from: Thundra on June 18, 2007, 08:28:19 PM

QuoteIn Minnesota, a six-foot woman is assumed to be Scandinavian.

LOL.  Very nice indeed.

I thought that I was tall until I moved to Colorado, and discovered I was a midget.
Tons of women there that are way over six feet and thin too -- like a gaggle of models.

Here was a scary exercise from my General Psych class last spring:  The prof called all the girls to the front of the room, then randomly divided us into two groups, and then lined us up by height and compared the two groups.  Thank god in my group I was only third tallest!

Quote from: Buffy on June 19, 2007, 02:47:40 AM
This is a difficult subject to reconcile with ones own feelings and as such I have stayed out of the debate for now.

You are a wise woman.

Quote from: Buffy on June 19, 2007, 02:47:40 AM
PS Given Melissa 90299's ability to spot a TS a million miles away, remind me never to go to America, less alone SF

What good would that do, if she can spot you a million miles away?  You've already been spotted.

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
My issue isn't so much someone else's passability as much perceiving that person to be male. If someone looks good but is vibing/talking/attitudinizing male to me (which could include gay male/crossdresser/or very simply not someone who I've ever encountered in the world of women) I'll be uncomfortable with that person's female identity. On the other hand, I've met people who were very early in transition, or not passable whose appearance didn't seem outwardly female to me, but how we interacted, their attitudes toward the world, and way of expressing themself did vibe female... and I thought, yes, they are definitely going in the right direction.

That is so true. There are some early transition women that don't pass yet, but their aura just screams female to me and others whose femaleness isn't so obvious.

Quote from: Keira on June 19, 2007, 02:16:50 AM
Yesterday, for fun, we did an experiment, me and 2 friends walked 20 feet and 50 feet behind me while we walked for quarter of a mile on St-Catherine (A very busy commercial street with tons of very varied foot traffic from children to grandparents, from the stars to the dowdy, people of all cultural backgrounds.

I remember Rue Ste-Catherine from when I stayed in Montreal a few years back.  I stayed in the Sheraton off of Boulevard Ren

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
get away from "can all trans women be clocked?,"

The obvious answer is "no, not unless someone has supernatural powers of 'tran-dar.' (That's similar to the supernatural powers of 'gay-dar.'

Quote from: regina on June 19, 2007, 10:55:23 AM
Why is it that many transwomen are so upset when they view someone as unpassable if they themselves are relatively or absolutely passable? What does someone else and their journey really have to do with me unless I choose to offer them help or friendship? Does that other person really reflect on me? I can't really control what the media chooses to show about transwomen. Nor can I really change people's attitudes other than by their direct connection to me as a person and, hopefully, as a woman.

I think there are a number of issues here. 

On the one hand, we are carelessly mixing multiple groups of people.  I don't think that people who make a genuine effort to pass and fail belong in the same category as people who make no effort to pass.  Also are we talking about those who make a carecature of woman by their appearance?  (You've seen the type: plastic miniskirt over fishnet stockings and hairy legs.)  I'm not saying any of these groups is bad, but they really are separate groups.

Another question is how much we have internalized other people's attitudes and stereotypes of trans people.  And it is not just straight people who have influenced our thinking.  Remember the decades when the gay movement wanted to distance themselves from trans people because they didn't want to be identified with "those people" by the straight community.  It's the origin of the image of the "manly gay."  The extent to which we internalize those attitudes affects our views on "passing privilage."  Passing privilage allows an elite to opt out and pretend to be straight or gay or lesbian, but not one of those transvestites.  Part of getting past feeling this way is realizing that the idea of passing privilage comes from the outside, from the straight world, and we don't have to buy into it.

A related issue is the TS/CD dicotomy.  Probably some of this comes from the struggle TSs have in negotiating their identity as women or men, being torn down by people who enter their world and say, "Oh, wow! You're a crossdresser, aren't you?"  So we get to the point where if an unpassable person comes around, we're afraid of catching CD cooties.  And this is really our own lack of self-confidence.  So the outside world conspires with what we have internalized to give us a sense of shame for things that really don't reflect on us. 

After all, what is appearance?  It's just the outside.  And our struggles are no different than every gawky, pimply teenager goes through.  For us it's just different features.

Im with buffy.
There are some trans folk, f2m or m2f (mainly m2f i might add) who belive the world owes them something, and they shouldnt have to integrate, or put effort in to be accepted. and demand to be taken as normal women, with 4 days of stubble, and sounding like tom jones. Sorry, but transition is effort, put some in, or gtfo...
THese are the sorta folk i feel uncomfortable around, or behave like im exactly the same as them, while they sit in the cafe shaving with thier electric razor AT THE TABLE >> (you can imagine i walked out....)

I get the discomfort, I really do. But people keep humbling me.

When an older super-conservative christian woman DEMANDS that she take me out to lunch and clothes shopping... having met me and knowing full well what I look and dress like... and isn't embarassed in the least to be seen with me... well, that really opened my eyes.

You'd think she'd have problems with "guilt by association," being seen as endorsing my "perversion" or something by religious types we might encounter. But no, she put aside the nasty things she heard, did her own research, and best of all - saw ME, not the "condition."

So I dunno, for me, as a TS, to refuse to be seen with anyone less passable than I would be... SO wrong. I do understand the discomfort, as I HATE attracting attention, but geez... if SHE can get over it, so should I.

~Kate~

Personally I experience no discomfort.  It doesn't matter if I'm next to an unpassable Trans woman.  I'm sure many people must just assume me to be a wife/daughter/friend.  I did feel uncomfortable for a while, but when I came up with the philosophy that I would probably be seen as an SO and I actually TRIED it and it worked, it boosted my confidence where I don't feel uncomfortable anymore.

To get over your discomfort, you may actually need to associate with some non-passables and see how you are treated.  You may find that you are still treated as a woman or you may be read.  If you think you are truly 100% passable, then I challenge you to see if you can get away with being around unpassable trans people.  I found the focus was usually on them.  If you pass still, it should really boost your confidence and if you are read, then you are in fact NOT 100% passable and there are some things to work on then.

QuoteTo the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

I don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

QuoteTo the second, you initiated the post by stepping to the stage and announcing your feelings and thoughts on the matter and then asked for responses. If you can clock other ts, then don't you think other ts' easily clock you along with many other people who simply don't care about your status?

Yes, I think most transwomen can clock other transwomen visually. But so what?

QuoteWhy are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

I didn't say I was afraid to. Hey, this is San Francisco, the custom is to not make eye contact with passersby. Making eye contact is not the norm, so you are saying something if you make eye contact, most likely it would be interpreted  by the other person as  saying "I clocked you."

Quote from: Melissa on June 19, 2007, 01:01:25 PM
Personally I experience no discomfort.  It doesn't matter if I'm next to an...

This isn't about being next to an unpassable transwoman. It is not a passing issue, I have lived almost three years fulltime, I am just comfortable being who I am, I don't try to worry about whether I am 100% passable, OTOH I am my own worst enemy, I mean if I am in one of my moods and I check out at the supermarket and they just say thank you and not "thank you, ma'am" I think "Oh did I just get clocked?" I don't assume that just because no one ever calls me "sir"  or that I get ma'amed usually several times a day, or that no one raises an eyebrow at me anymore, that I am passing 100% because I don't believe virtually anyone does, least of all me, but that is my lack of self-esteem talking. When I think intellectually and not emotionally, I know that I pass better than the vast majority of  mid-late transitioners, I also know that I am more attractive than 90% of women my age. I also know that I still need to work on my voice which is improving and, even more importantly, continue to work on my recovery and re-build my self-esteem.

Personally I could care less about an unpassable transsexual, nor do I really care that much if they do or do not pass.
I put effort into such things as how I look and my voice, but I lived with enough gender ambiguity at points in my life that I could care less if somebody reads me one way or another on occasion.  I am a strange bird for a transsexual, but I know who I am and what I need to do, and I know that passing all of the time is not going to happen, at least right now.  The strange thing is I have only ever had issues when I showed my credit card (they thought I stold my own credit card).  People are pretty clueless when it gets down to it, at least in DC. 

I come from Chicago where there are major parts of the city where there are boys who you could swear were girls and girls you could swear were boys, none of which identify as transgender or androgyne, it is just androgynous dress and presentation is very common in Chicago.  This has been going on for over two decades there.  I used to dress this way myself for a long period of time when I lived there, it is where I hid while I figured out how to sort things out just the right way with my life. 

I think that if you are really bothered by unpassable transsexuals, it really does account for quite a bit of internalized transphobia and insecurity.  It may in fact be that they are more secure in themselves even when they don't pass, that they don't have an issue with it.  Who knows?  Who cares?

Passing to me is more of a safety issue more than anything else.  I put an effort into how I look, but how others look or present themselves, well who cares?  Really?  There is nothing to be uncomfortable with.  The thing is, even if people do read me, well, so be it, I have been read a dozen differant ways in my life, if not more, it is just part of my life experience growing up.   

Nobody passes all of the time, even people who were born into the sex that they identify with and presenting as such.  There are manish women and femme boys who identify with thier birth sex, but frequently get misinterpated for the opposite sex.  It happens, such is life.  I just think that some are trans people are hurt more internally by ambiguity than others.  While I have issues with how I see myself, those issues do not make me fear gender ambiguity or being read. 

I think anytime that we feel uncomfortable around people who are different, there is some soul searching that needs to be done. I mean, who hasn't been uncomfortable seeing someone who is badly disfigured, say from a fire? In AA, it is called taking someone else's inventory.

I am just going to keep working on cleaning up my side of the street and, as much as I can, reaching out to those who need my help. I spend most of my time in the company of GGs, maybe I will check out a trans meeting and see if I can reach out to a transwoman who is struggling like I do to alcoholic newcomers.

Awhile back, someone at the SF Human Rights Commission invite me to become a regular speaker for various trans support groups, Now that I am sober, I am going to pursue doing that.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 01:08:41 PMI don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

so you're saying you're psychic then?


to get back on topic: don't care if someone doesn't pass too well tbh as it doesn't really effect me, if someone's a bit odd like many not so great passing people then i'm going to be made a little uncomfortable like anyone would.

QuoteTo the first, it's not unusual abilities. It's likely any, like my, therapist will tell you that ts' are sensitive to the signs of "passing" and can clock almost every, but not all, ts'. So you're as normal as any of us in the community.

Well i met with a trans activist, as a member of the sheffield uni lgbt committee, and she assumed i was a bi or lesbian female even when i told her i was trans, she thought i was f2m , not all ->-bleeped-<-s can read, and tbh, most of us read wrong.

QuoteWhy are you afraid to look other ts' in the eye? If you're so worried about your reaction, why don't you look at them and acknowlege them? Do you look at other people and say hello? But not them? It seems you're discriminating against ts' because you may be afraid of being identified? Or being associated with non-passable ts' in public?

imo, i dont want to aknowlage another trans person, i wouldnt aknowlage a random in the street, thier just another random, im not in some little ->-bleeped-<- club, nor do i want to be ,we dont have a secret handshake, i know as little about them as anyone else, so why the hell should i act like thier any different?

QuoteI come from Chicago where there are major parts of the city where there are boys who you could swear were girls and girls you could swear were boys, none of which identify as transgender or androgyne, it is just androgynous dress and presentation is very common in Chicago.  This has been going on for over two decades there.  I used to dress this way myself for a long period of time when I lived there, it is where I hid while I figured out how to sort things out just the right way with my life. 

That's not just Chicago, it's in every major city, but especially out west. I don't know when T-identified people got the idear that they were the only people in the world challenging gender role expectations, but gays and lesbians have been challenging sterotypes for centuries. Sometimes I think that people that are transitioning are simply too secluded away from society, because by some of the comments I see here, many people are clueless when it comes to anything outside of "the norm," or heterosexism.

plus some folk just look androgenous, regardless of trying...
sh*t dont always have a motive...

Quote from: Mawd on June 19, 2007, 04:22:04 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 19, 2007, 01:08:41 PMI don't think there are many here who feel the presence of another transwomen kinesthetically without any visual or auditory cues

so you're saying you're psychic then?


to get back on topic: don't care if someone doesn't pass too well tbh as it doesn't really effect me, if someone's a bit odd like many not so great passing people then i'm going to be made a little uncomfortable like anyone would.

Actually, yes I already said I am prescient. But everyone has the same ability, to some degree.