Quote from: melissa90299 on June 15, 2007, 09:17:49 AM
Seems like in the last week, every day I encounter a very poorly passing transwoman. When I do, I feel very uneasy and almost offended. Perhaps, it is a feeling that these persons diminishes me somehow because I am lumped in with them. I do feel some empathy, I guess I was there at one time too but never to that extreme. Kinda hard to talk about here as you guys can't see the women I speak of but the type of presentation I am talking about screams man in a dress and is so bad it doesn't appear these people will ever come close to passing.

As a recovering alcoholic/addict I am trying to become non-judgmental but in cases like this, I have a real hard time doing this.

My question for the group is that do you think my reaction is normal.

Your original question was, is your reaction normal? Sure, we all notice things about people all the time. I think what you need to ask yourself is, what is the basis of your bigotry? What is it exactly that makes you think you are better? Because you had the money for all this cosmetic surgery or because it's important to you to be passable while it's not important to them or because they don't care that they are not passable?

Through out the years I have seen many shows on TV about transsexuals, female impersonators and crossdressers. Invariably there are those who simply look like men in dresses. I clearly remember thinking, don't those poor bastards realize how ridiculous they look? I am not like that, that is not what I am. I will just stay in the closet thank you.

However, when I finally came out, passing had little to do with what I was feeling. Clearly crossdressing is not going to solve my problems, so why worry about it. What did I care what anyone thinks of me or how I dress?

I think this is multi-faceted. You have put a tremendous effort into not only being passable, but trying to be attractively passable. This has been a great expense financially, emotionally and in physical pain. Perhaps when you see someone who don't care, it makes you feel devalued. Like all that effort for nothing.

Here is what I used to look like.



I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.

I am the person you are talking about and all I can tell you is that I don't think of you any differently than I would think of anyone that judges someone by their appearance. It's your problem not mine. Everyone decides for themselves what is going to bother them. It is in your power to change that any time. If you are in recovery you should be thinking about not trying to control things you don't control. You have no control on how anyone presents themselves. You are setting yourself up by deciding to let it annoy you. You could just as easily let it roll off you and realize that as long as you are going to be upset when other don't present as you believe they should, you are always going to be upset. Once you are upset, you have a reason to drink or drug. You deserve it, for putting up with all this bad behavior. People not complying with your wishes. You have to change that kind of thinking. There is no right and wrong when it comes to passing. I don't want to be a man passing as a woman, I want to be a woman. I dress so people won't mistake me for a male, which it does. No one expects me to act male. Until I can get on hormones and get GRS, the rest is vanity and bores me. Not to mention, if I have to care what other transsexuals think, than I would have to care what everyone thinks. If I have to care what everyone thinks, than I would never be able to be myself. That I won't do. Not to please you, because if you are no longer offended by my not passing, you will find something else, like how much I weigh. You will always find something to annoy you, so you will be justified in being upset.

I know this is a hard thing to fight and I know it's hard to believe that you can control what annoys you, but it's true. Ask you sponsor.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Well, this topic just went where i expected it to. Passable women have too much money, and are biggoted cows, whereas the victims are the unpassable girls.

I dont think the original poster has a biggoted view at all. I have as little money as the poorest non passing trans girl, ive had NO cosmetic surgery, or ANYTHING, and ive done things to pass, i put effort in, and oh, wow, it works, but regardless.

This topic is going where it shouldnt, back on topic girls. because a bitchfest will only result in lockage.

On the 'reading' topic, rubbish, we think we read, we dont see trans folk, we do it to feel better about ourselves. we are just observant of male features nobody else sees. anyone who says they can read any trans person is a liar.

heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?
i have man shoulders tbh, but i wear straptops, and high shoulder tees, and it hides it, bingo learn to dress to your body and age. this topic is WAY off topic

''I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.''

no, that IS your problem! this is the exact issue, you made no effort to pass, and this it was your problem, people cant take someone as female if they dont even try to pass as female... no boobs, and balding, is your problem when both are easily remedyable. so dont come telling passable people how things are...
if you didnt look like a girl, didnt try, yet demaned to be accepted as one, THAT is the sort of person that its embaracing to be around in public, and EXACTLY what the op means.

The reading all trans doesn't work. since a high enough percent of the trans pop has antropometrics similar to GG and thus, by "reading" them, you read much more GG's than trans.  That being said, someone unpassable stands out for everyone. Not the super-sleuths with eagles eyes, or the bigot who will read everyone who's out of norm, GG or not.

My own feeling is that the disconfort says more about me, than it says about them.

I was read for a few months in early HRT (I transitioned early), not fun but I built a bubble around myself which enabled me to survive, not to trive. Not caring what people tought set me in own little civilisation where few inhabited.  Soon I found that I didn't get any relief from my pain by being often read and living in my little kingdom; I decided on light FFS right there (month 3) and got it done (month 5); by month 5, before my op, HRT had worked a bit more and I got read much less often, but it still happened enough. So, I went ahead, got the op by putting them on my credit card and line of credit; best money ever borrowed  .

But, after the op, I now felt uncomfortable with some other TS's in my support group outside the group setting. I was still insecure about myself; my self-esteem needed a good rebuild.

Very recently, I noticed this disconfort has magically ceased!!! I felt so comfortable within myself that I didn't need to look outside for some kind of validation by being more passable than another. I've never one to really look out for TS's anyway, so I seldom spot them.

So, Tuesday, I was just talking with people from my therapy group, outside, in full view in the sun, sitting relaxed on some steps, smiling as I spoke, laughing. I didn't really think about this recent change until I reread the thread.

yeah, i often have far too much to do when im out to care about getting read, or reading people. i count seconds like some women count callories.. ><

Quote from: Keira on June 20, 2007, 06:54:08 AM

The reading all trans doesn't work. since a high enough percent of the trans pop has antropometrics similar to GG and thus, by "reading" them, you read much more GG's than trans.

Anthropometrics don't take into account the way people move or kinesthetic perception. Ever feel that someone is staring at you from behind and you turn around and, invariably, a guy is checking you out? This is kinesthetic perception. Perception goes way beyond just anthropometrics.

Usually, if I see someone highly passabble who I perceive as trans, the perception is more about the"vibe" than physical. My instincts and intuition are extremely good, even better than most woman and way, way better than most men. I can't fathom that I ever falsely pegged a GG as trans. Sometimes, I think some of my experiences are unique and you would have to be inside my head to get it because so many people can't get what I am talking about. Again, I will repeat that one of the most important skills that an actor develops is the ability to observe and notice the subtle differences between people.

QuoteMy own feeling is that the disconfort says more about me, than it says about them.

QuoteVery recently, I noticed this disconfort has magically ceased!!! I felt so comfortable within myself that I didn't need to look outside for some kind of validation by being more passable than another. I've never one to really look out for TS's anyway, so I seldom spot them.

I never go around looking for TSs nor do I think my discomfort has much to do with insecurities about passing.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:59:17 AM
yeah, i often have far too much to do when im out to care about getting read, or reading people. i count seconds like some women count callories.. ><

It doesn't take any more time to notice the world around you than it does not to notice what is going on around on. If you worry about counting seconds, you are probably causing yourself a lot of undue stress. Stop and smell the roses.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?
i have man shoulders tbh, but i wear straptops, and high shoulder tees, and it hides it, bingo learn to dress to your body and age. this topic is WAY off topic

''I never wore a wig or breastforms. You can't see my bald spot, but on the back I have a nice little bald spot on the crown of my head. I just don't care, it's the other guys problem not mine. However, my wife has encouraged me to get a wig and breastforms and now I pass for the most part. It draws a lot less attention, which pleases her, I personally don't care what anyone thinks.''

no, that IS your problem! this is the exact issue, you made no effort to pass, and this it was your problem, people cant take someone as female if they dont even try to pass as female... no boobs, and balding, is your problem when both are easily remedyable. so dont come telling passable people how things are...
if you didnt look like a girl, didnt try, yet demaned to be accepted as one, THAT is the sort of person that its embaracing to be around in public, and EXACTLY what the op means.

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

That is sooooooooo not the case. Where did you get that idea?

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:36:33 AM
heh, yeah, you look natural, which is why you pass, people notice surgery, no matter how good it is.

my av is me with no makeup, and ffs boy clothes, and i still look like a rockstar *shrugs* its all how YOU try, dress to your age, and your style, and people dont notice. do you see natal females running off for surgery for anything? winging and crying when they have a man bit?

Lots of women have jaw reduction surgery. And all kinds of surgery to make them look more femineine. Where have you been.

BTW I don't get the rockstar thing.

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 09:04:19 AM

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Money has a lot to do with who passes and gets grs? no?

I have no money, im a student, with a part time job keeping me fed and a roof over my head. im poorer than you, i can garuntee it. but oh, i pass, and ill get grs on the nhs eventually, so money has nothing to do with it really.

If you want to live your life as a transexual, fine, but im transitioning to be myself, to be female, and thats it, im not being a transexual female, or a out transperson. im living my life as me, and nobody will mar that.

Do what you like, by all means, but dont call the original poster a biggot, because they dont belive as the same as you do....

Interesting that so many feel the need to convince others as to how well they pass and why that's so.

Interesting in the sense that the way we feel about "Ourselves" is not a reality to anyone else but ourselves.

It's for the sake of discussion, I don't need your validation or anyone elses.

I often wonder where a person such as myself fits in. For many years since my initial transition, I've ended up as somewhere in between genders, or neither gender, and that's what feels right for me. Sometimes I pass as female without trying, other times I don't pass when I was trying to. C'est la vie.

I have complete respect for anyone who wishes to pass as whichever gender they choose to be. I also wish that my choice to live between genders be honored. I don't want to pass as either of the binary genders, except when absolutely necessary for safety issues. I simply wish to "pass" as myself, wherever on the continuum that expression might be at a given moment. Yes, it's utopian, but that's what I believe.

zythyra

i love how this has so badly come off topic
to be honest, when this started, i wondered how long it would be before it decended into personal feelings, and im only sorry that i apear to have been dragged in... _{no, no i'm not} *whistles*

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 02:51:45 PM
It's for the sake of discussion, I don't need your validation or anyone elses.

I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 12:10:06 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 09:04:19 AM

You may continue to live your life for others, I am going to live for me. If passing is important to you, than make sure you pass. I personally am not ashamed of what I am and if anyone happens to notice that I was born male, but think I am female, I am ok with that. Because I don't beleive anyone is better than me, their judgements are meaningless. Why would I care if you or the author of this thread are offended? Like I said, if you were not offended by that, you would find something else. You act as if because passing is important to you, than everyone should adopt your standard.

I spent the first 42 years of my life trying to please others and be what they wanted me to be. I did not come out of the closet so I could be told by someone else what standards of dress I should employ. Face it, there are a lot of transsexuals that are not passable and never will be. And let's get real here, money has a huge amount to do with who passes and who gets GRS.

My house also is not a museum. I don't have white carpet or a couch that no one can ever sit on. I don't have stainless steal appliances so everyone will think I am rich. I don't have a 42" plasma screen TV when there are only 3 channels broadcasting in HD and I don't lease my car so I can have a car that is more than I can really afford.  I don't care what others think. I am pragmatic. It's all about meeting my needs. I don't know how to make it any clearer without hurting your feelings. I don't care about the judgements of others and I don't feel anyone is a better transsexual than me, because they have more money, or credit which is usually the case, or can pass better me. I am accepted in my community, just how I am.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Money has a lot to do with who passes and gets grs? no?

I have no money, im a student, with a part time job keeping me fed and a roof over my head. im poorer than you, i can garuntee it. but oh, i pass, and ill get grs on the nhs eventually, so money has nothing to do with it really.

If you want to live your life as a transexual, fine, but im transitioning to be myself, to be female, and thats it, im not being a transexual female, or a out transperson. im living my life as me, and nobody will mar that.

Do what you like, by all means, but dont call the original poster a biggot, because they dont belive as the same as you do....

I think you are missing the point here. Whether or not you pass is a matter of opinion. Not knowing you, I really don't know if you are a male to female or a female to male. That says a lot about your alleged passability. And if you are really so confused that you think anyone can be passable if they just put in enough effort, is ill informed. There are many MtF with extremely manly jaw lines and brow ridges. Nothing short of very expensive surgery will make them passable. "Willing" it, is not enough. Because you see yourself as passable, with not much effort, you assume, wrongly I might add, that anyone can.

It's not a question of whether the author of this thread thinks she is having bigoted thoughts, she stated she is. Her question was, "is it normal?". Again, you have missed the point of the thread. We all have our prejudices and methods for overcoming them, or not. I have admitted to having similar thoughts at different times and told the author how I deal with them.

Now, imagine you had a huge manly nose, and a huge ridgeline, a balding and high hairline and beard growth that gives you Noon O'clock shadow, and let me know how you intend to deal with this and become passable with no money? While what you are doing may work for you, you must realize you are in the minority here.

Love always,
Elizabeth

thanks i guess. im male to female.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Ok, that may be so.  Are you wanting an answer to your OP or would you rather argue over unrelated details?  My input was intended to help you out, but anytime somebody offers something that does not quite fit into how you see things, you get defensive.  If you want to learn and grow, you need to be willing to realize that there is a possiblity that others may be right and you might be wrong.  I'm not implying that is the case, but if you don't accept it as a possibility, then you won't be able to ascertain an equitable proposition to your original query. 

Personally, when I debate a topic, I share my point of view, but am also open to the possibility that the opposing view may be the correct one and I could possibly learn something.  In my opinion, that's the only good reason for debating subjects.

I think it's human nature to want to compare ourselves to others.  So why should the T world be any different?  Haven't we all seen others and thought we looked better?  Should we?  Of course not.  But we do. 

Women who do not and cannot pass seem to no longer care about what others think.  I think that's a wonderful quality.  I wish I had it.  But I'm not there.  When I'm out and I know I don't look my best I really don't enjoy it at all.  I start wondering who will clock me.  I begin hanging on every word and innuendo anybody says to me, probing for clues.  I start wondering if the ones who didn't stare were just being nice.  In short, it's just no fun.  Why?  Because in my female life I'm immature and insecure, and I admit it.  But nothing feels better than when I know everything is just right.  I can be myself.  And I know that I am my most feminine at those times.  That's when I've sat down and had conversations with hairdressers and makeup girls who didn't have a clue.  One day maybe I'll bat 100%.  But not yet.  I am scared spitless of being Max Klinger.

So why do we feel uncomfortable?  It is because of our own insecurities.

Kristi