Yeah, unless you 18 when you transition and have fine features and little beard (probable since some facial masculinisation happens until 25 and the beard usually is not at its peek until much later) then it is probably going to cost you mucho money.

If you've got the money, or the credit, you can take care of the beard and the most egregious problems (most TS I know wqant a Rhino before any other FFS) straight away. If you've got too much balding, there's no current solution but a nice expensive wig, for intermediate cases, transplant, for others, bangs or the appropriate hairstyle.

If you've got little or no money and you've got a big beard and a Cyrano nose, well what to do then besides be yourself and do the best with the resources you have.

If you've got real big passing issues, 50 inch chest and six foot 5, what do you do then, find a bridge? TS don't all come in dainty package and their feelings are just as valid as the others.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

SAY WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING WITH ALL THE DRAMA GOING ON!

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:50:24 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Well that is good, than I have not offended you. But certainly you must recognize that having such nice female facial features is not something most genetic males have. You are lucky. That does not mean anyone can pass if they just set their mind to it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Kristi on June 20, 2007, 06:29:14 PM

So why do we feel uncomfortable?  It is because of our own insecurities.

Kristi

this is the answer girls, simple and blunt.  kuddos  kristi

do i pass there? that was me in september last year, ive had only 6 months of hrt since

Quote from: Melissa on June 20, 2007, 06:22:53 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PM

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 04:09:29 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 03:44:16 PM
I actually didn't even have you in mind when I posted this. But you make a good point, the last people one should need to convince are other transwomen. OTOH you must have gotten someone's validation to feel that you pass "absolutely."
I think we can disagree without being disagreeable, the subject of passing always spiral into catfights.

My validation is implicit in my life experience.

Implicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Ok, that may be so.  Are you wanting an answer to your OP or would you rather argue over unrelated details?  My input was intended to help you out, but anytime somebody offers something that does not quite fit into how you see things, you get defensive.  If you want to learn and grow, you need to be willing to realize that there is a possiblity that others may be right and you might be wrong.  I'm not implying that is the case, but if you don't accept it as a possibility, then you won't be able to ascertain an equitable proposition to your original query. 

Personally, when I debate a topic, I share my point of view, but am also open to the possibility that the opposing view may be the correct one and I could possibly learn something.  In my opinion, that's the only good reason for debating subjects.

I don't know what we are debating here. In Mawd's case, based on what she said and her pic, and when she transitioned, she may be as close to 100% passable as anyone on the planet. But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans. The mere fact that she even thinks she is transsexual can be read by some people. If you can prove that non-verbal, non-visual perception doesn't exist, I will gladly admit I am wrong. (And I admit I am wrong on the rare occasion that I am.)

if perhaps you were a behavioural phsyc, but hey, girls have some male behavioural traits too. it means nothing.

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:54:55 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:50:24 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on June 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 06:22:06 PM
thanks i guess. im male to female.

I guess this means you are female to male. Perhaps you are not passing as well as you thought? I thought you were passing really well as a female. My bad, my intention is not to insult you or hurt your feelings, but when you assume you are passing and assume that everyone is like you? Well , we all know about assumptions. However this does prove my point. You have a very small feminine nose and your jawline is definitely female. It was not until your last post that I looked at your gender marker because you had stated so strongly that you pass. Since you looked female to me, I assumed you were MtF.

Love always,
Elizabeth

er? what?
i just said i was m2f...
i have female as my gender marker, because i am...

Well that is good, than I have not offended you. But certainly you must recognize that having such nice female facial features is not something most genetic males have. You are lucky. That does not mean anyone can pass if they just set their mind to it.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Well, I wouldn't go overboard, the right camera angle and pose can do a lot to feminize the face. Pre-ffs I had an avatar that I posted on a lesbian and other forums and everyone read me as female. I will say though that the subject does have fairly nice features though.

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 10:22:15 PM
if perhaps you were a behavioural phsyc, but hey, girls have some male behavioural traits too. it means nothing.

One doesn't need to have any special skills to pick up traits that transsexuals display. It's a moot point though, if you pass well enough that only rare people usually TSs themselves can read you, you have nothing to worry about.

QuoteSAY WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR ANYTHING WITH ALL THE DRAMA GOING ON!

Why are you shouting?

Call it drama if you wish, imo I think it's great that we're discussing this subject. No one is going to overcome decades of shame and internalized transphobia by keeping it all hidden in the closet.

What good does it really do us to buy into the binary gender system? I lived through much pain trying to fit in, for me there is life outside the binary, and I want to create and live in a world that has room for more than two genders. Whether or not they "pass". I don't need or want to pass as either/or, I need a world where it's safe to express ANY gender. And we need to start here with our sisters and brothers.
   
zythyra

if your looking for them. but i spend my time looking at the world, and people, not trying to figure out whos trans.

and the camera angle is s*** there
my jaw looks massive

Funny I got this thread in my head, when I am out, I can't help but see if I notice TSs! I actually went two days without a spotting! (good or bad) `I saw a really hot Asian "100% passsable" TS today, I looked at her as she passed and she diverted her eyes, maybe she thinks I clocked her. Who knows?

Quote from: Rachael on June 20, 2007, 10:28:51 PM
if your looking for them. but i spend my time looking at the world, and people, not trying to figure out whos trans.

and the camera angle is s*** there
my jaw looks massive

Well, not massive, why do you post your avatar if you don't want people to look at it. Let's get real, we are looking at the world here, and, unlike a lot of people, I say what I think, I don't blow smoke up people's asses, you look pretty good, and you are young, I am sure you will do just fine. Just be real, please.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 04:26:43 PMImplicit in your life experience is validation from others.

Others that I acctually know and interact with on a day to day basis not others that are just random peeps of an internet forum.

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:16:50 PM

I don't know what we are debating here. In Mawd's case, based on what she said and her pic, and when she transitioned, she may be as close to 100% passable as anyone on the planet. But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans. The mere fact that she even thinks she is transsexual can be read by some people. If you can prove that non-verbal, non-visual perception doesn't exist, I will gladly admit I am wrong. (And I admit I am wrong on the rare occasion that I am.) 

You're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

I think she meant rachael, mellissa90299 hasn't passed judgement on me.

Quote from: Mawd on June 20, 2007, 11:18:28 PM
I think she meant rachael, mellissa90299 hasn't passed judgement on me.

Mawd looks great, so does Rachel, I only give people my honest opinion and only if they seem to be asking for it, I don't think it does anyone a service when you tell them how feminine or how passable they look just to make them feel good.

Quote from: regina on June 20, 2007, 11:09:18 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on June 20, 2007, 10:26:44 PM
I will say though that the subject does have fairly nice features though.

Mawd, i think you look beautiful. Ignore this pissing contest, we should all look as good as you.

QuoteOne doesn't need to have any special skills to pick up traits that transsexuals display.

No, it just takes a great deal of practice. You have to obsess over it pretty much 24/7 to the point where you have little energy for anything else in your life.

Gina M.

You are with me 24/7? Being able to read people is what I do for a living, I made enough money to pay for my FFS, SRS and BA because of these skills, so I wouldn't be so quick to scoff at them. The only reason that I have so much time to play here is that I am on disability, which right now is 100% of salary or $75,000 per year. I will probably be in recovery for a year although my compensation will be reduced to around $55k Somehow I will manage to squeak by, but the good news is that I will be here to entertain you.

I'm not really fussed, the fact that I look ok was small point in my line of argument not to stroke my ego, enough people do that on a day to day basis that I don't really get off on it anymore or anything. Thanks for being honest though, it's possible to tear appart practically any picture if you set your mind to it.

QuoteYou're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

Mawd, actually the reverse is true, I suspected that you were not raised strictly as a male that's why I put that caveat in. There is a genetic boy who is being raised as a girl here in Norcal, when she grows up, she will likely pass "absolutely." But IMO she is not a transsexual because she never really had to transition from the male to female role.

I don't get how any TS can exercise a special trait if they've spent 10 or even 20 years living as a women and transitioned in their 20's, unless they've had no social contact with any women or men for all these years. Even for the others, many had a good base of socialisation since they never really integrated into male society and absorbed female socialisation (without being able to use it); that's my case. I had a good base and picked so much more in just one year and I bet this will continue in the future.

My sister is 5 foot 8, considered pretty but has more male traits than most men I know, she's more aggressive than 3 other guys put together and runs an entire department at 32 years old. Her 6 foot 2 boyfriend's got more female trait than her. But as far as I know, she's no man (that I know... Since I don't have "the power"... ).

There are older transitioners that don't get rid of their male socialisation very easily and don't pick up on female socialisation easily either. But, these are not the majority of TS after a few year of socialisation, unless you lump many GG into the TS realm (hey, they didn't know they weren't really women... )

The point is as always, why care so much!!!!! The fact that someone can believe they can discriminate absolutely any TS is something I can't fathom. My opinion is that this is way too much attention spent on looking around for clues that point to nothing but our own insecurities, and says nothing about the person in front of us.

I'm in no way unpassable, but I do get hastled in around my house because they knew me before transition. So, I'm living the unpassable life around my house while still passing, oh the irony of this. Still, its only when I'm being followed and yelled at on the street that I feel the weight of this. That others are uncomfortable (because they know I was a man before because they know where I live) I don't give a crap, its their own problem; as long as they resolve their conflict internally and let me live in peace, I'm happy.

Quote from: Keira on June 20, 2007, 11:42:47 PM... )

The point is as always, why care so much!!!!!

Well, you just posted five paragraphs about something you have no interest in? I wish you would read what I said and not mis characterize what I say. I never said I go around looking for clues, in fact, I have said just the opposite. And I never said that I could read any transwomen. My belief is that everyone carries some trait that someone, sometime can read. Does it really matter if one person out of a million can read you?