Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
I guess I don't understand how this happens?  Can you give an example?

It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own  and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target.  Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times.  Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting.  These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh  everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..".  The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone.     

I have a love/hate relationship with threads like that. Sometimes, after a particularly good or even a pretty bad day, its nice to see what comments one's appearance gets.  And I am always nice enough to warn anyone that gets queasy easily before the pic so they can be prepared.

And even during all the years I spent on forums where I was the only regular trans, there was plenty of pic whoring by women and even men to bolster their confidence or get opinions. So its not just us that are annoying like that...

Quote from: Renee on June 24, 2013, 05:21:07 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with threads like that. Sometimes, after a particularly good or even a pretty bad day, its nice to see what comments one's appearance gets.  And I am always nice enough to warn anyone that gets queasy easily before the pic so they can be prepared.

And even during all the years I spent on forums where I was the only regular trans, there was plenty of pic whoring by women and even men to bolster their confidence or get opinions. So its not just us that are annoying like that...

You always make me laugh...

I mean you personally, not your picture!!   

Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 05:14:00 PM
It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own  and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target.  Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times.  Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting.  These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh  everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..".  The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone.     

By that logic, it's dangerous telling anyone they pass, they might go out looking fabulous but sounding like a drill sergeant. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
I guess I don't understand how this happens?  Can you give an example?

So, after YOU told them that they are the cutie thing since Barbie, well they sprint to the nearest bar where they get beaten up by some guys...


Then they will sue YOU for telling them that hey will pass..... :laugh

Quote from: Jamie D on June 24, 2013, 05:24:09 PM
You always make me laugh...

I mean you personally, not your picture!!   

It's ok, I know I'm funny looking.   

I couldn't imagine a support forum that didn't have a place for you to show pictures to others.

I've had a few ultra-bad depressive bouts where I really needed some self-confidence (last week being one of them,) and likewise had some days where I was just so happy that I had to share this joy with everyone. This is a huge life journey, and one worth celebrating and sharing with others to both help you through the bad times and to celebrate the good. That's what I see those topics as being about.

And personally, I think the "Before and After" thread is one of the most important on this entire site, because it was one of the primary things that gave me hope, and convinced me that I really could transition, after a whole lifetime of thinking that it was impossible. And I imagine that it does the same for MANY potential transitioners.

It's been an interesting exchange of thoughts and a friendly rather than hysterical conversation, thanks to everyone for their input! While we were talking Jamie D changed the name of "Do I Pass" to "Do I look female!"  thank you Jamie D!

I think your take on these types of threads is largely dependent on the reaction you would want if you had put your own pictures up there. For me personally, I'd want someone to tell it like is it to me. If I look like a woman that let a 5 yo put on her makeup, I want to know about it. If I look androgynous or totally male, I also want to know about it. So on that note, I really don't like the overly positive responses, but I can see where other people would.

I may not have the confidence to even put up a profile picture, much less post on one of those threads right now, but it doesn't mean I won't feel the need in the future. Obviously there's a demand for them with them being up to 90+ pages on the thread.

Hmm, I sort of disagree and agree with you on this Shantel (but isn't that always the case,lol.  You know you love me,lol). On the first point, changing the the title of "Do I pass" to "Do I look female" is fine by me.  I think it is more of a semantics game more than anything, but I do see your point that passing is so much more than a photo.  But then, if someone passes in the photo, I don't think that they will take it for more than that.  If someone looks female but talks like Barry White, I don't think they are unaware of the fact that their voice prevents them from passing.  Still, there may be of merit to change the title of that one.

Where I really disagree with is your stand on the "Fabulous" thread.  I don't think people should avoid posting in there purely because they might not be the conventional image of beauty.  What does it mean to look Fabulous?  Who defines it?  Tastes differ and we should be careful about creating stereotypical beauty standards for those who want to share their images.  For example, Rosie O'Donell is far the most attractive women (imo), but she passes and is able to wear clothes that might make her look "fabulous".  Should someone that looks like her be precluded from the thread?  I don't think so (other than I can't stand Rosie,lol).

As for the whole cheerleading controversy, I think it depends on how you look at it.  Just because some people have high standards, doesn't mean another person isn't fabulous looking or passing.  Some may look at those photos and see different things.  It's like anything else.  Have you ever seen a celebrity that everyone goes crazy for, but you yourself can't see the appeal?  People differ in what looks fabulous and whether someone passes.  It's true that some may be dishonest which I think is a shame, but that comes with the territory.  I think more people are speaking their mind than not.  We tend to be a fairly harsh community because we look at someone of our flaws and constantly worry about passing.  Sometimes we focus  to much on the little things to realize that the overall package does indeed allow one to pass.  I think the problem here is we have so many different perspectives which may make other members question the validity, accuracy or honesty of the feedback.  When in reality, the feedback is truthful from the posters perspective. 

I think it's great that these threads exist.  Before I joined I lurked on those threads.  It made me feel better about myself and the possibilities that transitioning could open.  Many of us are afraid that we will never pass ( I still fear this).  Those threads provide inspiration for girls who are still starting out that are in need of everything.  It's not just vanity at the end of the day.  It provides people confidence to go about transitioning and obtain their goals.  So I say the sticky stays.  Having said that, I avoid these threads because of personal insecurities and jealousy at times.  What can I say, it's common to compare ourselves to one another.  To a girl with not even two weeks of hrt, this can be detrimental. 

I'd just like to add that my favorite thread on the whole forum is the before and after one, which I guess isn't technically a vanity thread, but it's still a place where people can post and wait for the kudos. I used to think I was way too masculine to ever pass. Next to some of the before pictures on that thread, I'm practically a woman before everything. That's not meant to be mean towards those I'm referring too. It's a major compliment because it means you pass amazingly well in your after pictures and provided a huge amount of hope to me.

Quote from: learningtolive on June 24, 2013, 06:14:41 PM
Hmm, I sort of disagree and agree with you on this Shantel (but isn't that always the case,lol.  You know you love me,lol).

Of course I love you sweetheart! 

I think the do I pass thing has become a moot point and I will admit to having seen worse then Rosie on the "Do I look fabulous" thread. I'm just suggesting that if you know that no-one would invite you to a dog fight to just use some common sense and don't try to lower the bar to the extent that it becomes farcical for others.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 24, 2013, 05:32:27 PM
By that logic, it's dangerous telling anyone they pass, they might go out looking fabulous but sounding like a drill sergeant. Hugs, Devlyn

LOL   OMG! .. you made me shoot Dr.Pepper out my nose with that one..   WoW that hurt  ..still kinda does....!!!    

  ...actually I know that person(someone like that) in RL.   

Passing is a package deal, the new title for that thread seems more in-line with what it was meant for. 

We all find comfort and assurance in different ways. I'm sure that many are helped by those threads and hope that respondents there realize anything said may be taken to heart by some.

Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
LOL   OMG! .. you made me shoot Dr.Pepper out my nose with that one..   WoW that hurt  ..still kinda does....!!!    

  ...actually I know that person(someone like that) in RL.   

Passing is a package deal, the new title for that thread seems more in-line with what it was meant for. 

We all find comfort and assurance in different ways. I'm sure that many are helped by those threads and hope that respondents there realize anything said may be taken to heart by some.

Nostril cleaning, just another service I offer!

Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 05:14:00 PM
It happens when people are told they are "totally passable, I would never guess you were not female..ect" when they are not; then they take those comments, which were less then truthful or correct, to heart. Subsequently they go out on their own  and end up in places, restaurants,bars,clubs or stores thinking they totally pass and are blending in as cis females, this can cause them to be a target.  Even ''safe'' places are not always safe at certain times.  Society, as I'm more then sure your aware, is not fully accepting.  These places can be unsafe for any woman out on her own at times, the parking lots especially but for someone that does not blend in as well as they have been led to believe it makes them that much more of a target. There is a laps, for them, of being even more diligent in their awareness of the surroundings, "ohh  everyone just thinks I'm a women out shopping,eating..".  The 'neanderthal/ homo trigger' is quickly brought out in some guys and they are dumb enough to act on that impulse right then and there irrespective of whether they were even looking to go after cis females or anyone.     

Idk..  I guess I just feel like it would take an outrageously oblivious person to take a compliment in a "do I pass" thread to mean that they should throw on their shortest miniskirt and rush out to go rub up on the nearest beer-soaked frat boy.  My feeling is such a person probably would end up doing that anyway, compliment or not.

I believe the overwhelming majority of people have common sense and realize the insignificance somebody saying they look good in their very best picture from their best angle has with respect to their passing out in the real world.  The real world has a way of telling you how much you pass in the real world anyway, unless, again, you are oblivious.   However, sometimes, well for most people I think, it takes a little bit of a confidence boost to get their buns out the door that first time so that they can start getting that real-world feedback .  Fear is such the enemy, imo.

That said I think people should be real with their comments, but also BE KIND!

I have been on this forum long enough to notice that this comes up for discussion about ever 6 months or so. It is kind of comical when I see the discussion brewing. But since I just posted some pictures in the threads in question I thought I would weigh in on the discussion.

When I posted in the "Do I pass thread" I was looking for some honest critiques. Some pictures were better then others whether it was lighting or makeup or attire. But I got to hear what was working for me through pictures and what wasnt working for me. At the time, I had NO ONE else to go to for an opinion. BUT, I also knew full well how bad my voice was and my posture and the dangers of being out and about. No one is going to get a compliment on a picture then automatically think their voice and mannerisms pass. Thats just silly to think that. Anyone that goes out dressed is FULLY aware of how well they pass or don't pass. In the beginning I could tell just with a glance. I also think everyone that posts on that thread is aware that it is just a photo nothing more. It takes alot more to pass that a pretty picture and everyone knows that. EVERYONE.

Why I post in the "before and after" is basically a progress picture. Just to see where I came from. I think people like myself like to see the change whether drastically or not. Like myself I think some people are truely inspired by the pictures and stories on that thread.

When I post in the "You look fabulous thread", it is for the reason that is in the title. I feel like I look  fabulous. Or it would be a time when I felt fabulous. It is not a picture that I post to say "Look how pretty I am!!!" It is just a snap shot when I feel like a million bucks.  It is a picture that I show to my girlfriends like a, "this is what I wore to that Thai place" or something. I think sometimes people need to see pictures where someones confidence is shinning bright. Sometimes too it is nice to hear compliments. I don't think that I'm fishing for compliments so much as maybe trying to inspire a little. Whether the inspiration is for myself or someone else.

As someone that likes to view those topics, I like to see people going through their transition. When they post a new picture i try to picture in my mind what they looked like in the last picture. I dunno. There is good and bad in everything we do or say. I think the thing to remember is to just try and be respectful and responsible when posting/viewing/commenting. People are putting themselves out there to be judged. If nothing else the courage it takes to do that is something that should not be taken lightly.

Yayy! I did some rambling maybe?

<3 Liv

I have always somewhat disliked the "you look fabulous " thread. Not because I don't feel people on their don't look good...many on their are very pretty and many look so natural...and its not because I am jealous (well maybe a little) but the main reason is why it (the original one) was started in the first place.

I for one.... have never nor never will post in the fabulous thread but I may have been put into the original one inadvertently. I feel the original one was started because of some people thinking that other people posting in the do I pass didn't belong their....It even said this in the original post.

I feel part of the reason the original thread started by Helena about 2 years ago was because of me......Not that I thought I was attractive or even natural looking during that time....but I was one of the last people to post in the do I pass before the fabulous thread started.....and the feeling I got was that I was being conceited by posting in the do I pass thread.....I even had some say things such as "oh come on you know you pass" This was not my intention at all.  In fact I did feel that I was somewhat passable but just barely...and definitely not fabulous!!

Some people a bit more secure with themselves may take the compliments and roll with them...I took it as people thinking I was intentionally being conceited. 

It seems people always take me wrong...even when if my words are written. I'm sure this post will be taken the wrong way. This is not my intention....my intention is that some people do not see themselves as attractive, skinny, or feminine no matter what is said.

I don't post in their now because I know I don't look fabulous....and even if 100 people told me I did it wouldn't help my self esteem anyways.....I know I blend into society just fine and most days that's good enough!!

Well Shelly, if you prefer, you can always post over in the Androgyne forum, in the "You Look.... Alright" topic.   

We have fun over there, and are not entirely serious, or dour, or even critical.

And it is true though.  Some of us can not see the changes - and can only see our old selves.

I have never in my life thought to myself omg, wow you look fabulous, honey!  Never.  I also doubt most people that use that thread sit there thinking that.  I have used that thread more like a "this is me" thread and I'll post pics there occasionally so that new people that don't know me can put a face to my name, cause I'm not going to use a real pic for my avatar.  I don't know of a better place to put them.

Maybe if we're renaming things, the fabulous one should be considered, cause I mean its current title implies that when I put a pic there I'm going, "hey everybody don't I just look AMAZING!?!?!?"  Which... um, no.  It's embarrassing that anybody would ever think I was saying that..

Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 09:22:57 PM
I have never in my life thought to myself omg, wow you look fabulous, honey!  Never.  I also doubt most people that use that thread sit there thinking that.  I have used that thread more like a "this is me" thread and I'll post pics there occasionally so that new people that don't know me can put a face to my name, cause I'm not going to use a real pic for my avatar.  I don't know of a better place to put them.

Maybe if we're renaming things, the fabulous one should be considered, cause I mean its current title implies that when I put a pic there I'm going, "hey everybody don't I just look AMAZING!?!?!?"  Which... um, no.  It's embarrassing that anybody would ever think I was saying that..

I agree about the fabulous thing. Even when I was using it in my post, it is not a word that is really in my vocabulary. I even felt silly using it to adress myself in my post. But I was just using it because that is what the thread is called. But I agree I think the word is a bit over the top. But no matter what we call the threads, they are still doing their intended function I think. For the most part anyways. But with this many women on the topic of appearance, someones feelings are bound to get stepped on. *shrugs*

In hind sight i do sound a bit pretentous when im talking about the fab thread. lol Oh well.

<3 Liv