Susan's Place Logo

News:

Visit our Discord server  and Wiki

Main Menu

Vanity Threads

Started by Shantel, June 24, 2013, 11:25:04 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BunnyBee

Oh I was kinda/sorta responding to Just Shelly, I prob should have made that clear.  Also, to be clear about another thing, I really want people to feel fabulous about themselves, I would never be judgmental about that.  Actually I think it's great!  It's just not something I am able to think about myself, I wish I could.

I actually kinda agreed with a lot of the things you said, Olivia.

Anyway, I think I should just shut up now lol.  I agree with everything :)
  •  

Lorri Kat

I understand your rationale for what you said in your 9:07 PM post Olivia and it is, since you said it, true to you.

The conceptual level of what constitutes silly, fully aware, common sense even is subjective though to each individual alone.  Everyone does not think, act or perceive things the same.   :)   
=^..^=
  •  

Olivia-Anne

Quote from: Lorri Kat on June 24, 2013, 10:20:56 PM
I understand your rationale for what you said in your 9:07 PM post Olivia and it is, since you said it, true to you.

The conceptual level of what constitutes silly, fully aware, common sense even is subjective though to each individual alone.  Everyone does not think, act or perceive things the same.   :)
You are correct, I know I was speaking in absolutes. Which given the reason of this forum, that is a big no no. But I think to a degree everyone is more self aware than they would like to think, or than we give them credit for. But, that being said. This is a support forum, so we must cater to the lowest common denominator and treat people as if they don't have the best common sense or situational awareness.
Quote from: Jen on June 24, 2013, 10:18:13 PM
Oh I was kinda/sorta responding to Just Shelly, I prob should have made that clear.  Also, to be clear about another thing, I really want people to feel fabulous about themselves, I would never be judgmental about that.  Actually I think it's great!  It's just not something I am able to think about myself, I wish I could.

I actually kinda agreed with a lot of the things you said, Olivia.

Anyway, I think I should just shut up now lol.  I agree with everything :)
You don't need to shut up silly! Your post just got me thinking about my post. So I thought I too would clarify a bit. My post just kind of fell from my fingertips. I didn't re-read what I had wrote to make sure that my thoughts were clear.

<3 Liv
  •  

Joanna Dark

Quote from: Shantel on June 24, 2013, 01:07:55 PM
You have good points and I know I intimated that in your statement on the bottom, but I think that it's a shame that so many people enjoy looking at the women on those threads and yet refuse to comment at all leaving some very fragile types with feelings of even more worthlessness than before. I am equally guilty, but we should all reconsider how such an innocuous oversight by us may seem like a smash in the face of someone who had the guts to put up their photo in the first place. I realize that there was a super full moon yesterday but I got pm's by half a dozen women who were lamenting about how dissed they felt because of it. Something is wrong when that happens on a support forum. This isn't about me, it's about everyone here.

That does suck cause then you feel like not only do you not pass and haven't changed or anything, you also feel like you don't belong here or feel unwanted and rejected. I personally would rather have an honest critique that says I don't pass then deafening silence that echoes around in your fragile eggshell mind that eventually transforms into despair and destroys your confidence.
  •  

kyh

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 24, 2013, 10:58:43 PM
That does suck cause then you feel like not only do you not pass and haven't changed or anything, you also feel like you don't belong here or feel unwanted and rejected. I personally would rather have an honest critique that says I don't pass then deafening silence that echoes around in your fragile eggshell mind that eventually transforms into despair and destroys your confidence.

Really? I'd just never post hahahaha
  •  

StellaB

I'm another who's unlikely to be posting on any of these threads. I find the consensus of people on the other side of my front door to be quite reliable plus I've got my own opinions, which to me are the most valid.

However that saying I do see the value for those who are new or just starting out. Facing up to living your life as your acquired gender and even going out into certain situations can be quite daunting and not everyone has the support of someone else there with them in their lives.
"The truth within me is more than the reality which surrounds me."
Constantin Stanislavski

Mistakes not only provide opportunities for learning but also make good stories.
  •  

Shantel

Quote from: Just Shelly on June 24, 2013, 08:59:33 PM
I have always somewhat disliked the "you look fabulous " thread. Not because I don't feel people on their don't look good...many on their are very pretty and many look so natural...and its not because I am jealous (well maybe a little) but the main reason is why it (the original one) was started in the first place.

I for one.... have never nor never will post in the fabulous thread but I may have been put into the original one inadvertently. I feel the original one was started because of some people thinking that other people posting in the do I pass didn't belong their....It even said this in the original post.

I feel part of the reason the original thread started by Helena about 2 years ago was because of me......Not that I thought I was attractive or even natural looking during that time....but I was one of the last people to post in the do I pass before the fabulous thread started.....and the feeling I got was that I was being conceited by posting in the do I pass thread.....I even had some say things such as "oh come on you know you pass" This was not my intention at all.  In fact I did feel that I was somewhat passable but just barely...and definitely not fabulous!!

Some people a bit more secure with themselves may take the compliments and roll with them...I took it as people thinking I was intentionally being conceited. 

It seems people always take me wrong...even when if my words are written. I'm sure this post will be taken the wrong way. This is not my intention....my intention is that some people do not see themselves as attractive, skinny, or feminine no matter what is said.

I don't post in their now because I know I don't look fabulous....and even if 100 people told me I did it wouldn't help my self esteem anyways.....I know I blend into society just fine and most days that's good enough!!

Shelly, what a thoughtful post! You and I are on the same page in so many ways on this topic. As I had said in another thread, it is great that a few look fabulous and we should congratulate them for that and realize that it is an anomaly within the real world to be just drop-dead-gorgeous, after all isn't it preferable to not want to draw a lot of unwanted attention and scrutiny to ourselves in public and rather just blend in with the normal, average looking cis female population?
  •  

Joanna Dark

Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:04:20 AM
Really? I'd just never post hahahaha

Yeah my opinion may not account for much since I pass IRL and have a BF so you could tell me I don't pass and I'd just go outside and everyone would say she and stuff so yeah lol
  •  

Shantel

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 25, 2013, 12:15:46 PM
Yeah my opinion may not account for much since I pass IRL and have a BF so you could tell me I don't pass and I'd just go outside and everyone would say she and stuff so yeah lol

There you go Joanna, kind of proof of the pudding I'd say huh?
  •  

A

To be honest I think many members here are way too fragile, easy to anger or optimistic for the threads to be as useful as they could be. Not that I think anything can or should be done about it. It just sadly happens to be so.

In the You look fabulous thread, people post according to how they think they look fabulous, no matter how it looks to them. Some post there knowing that they don't pass too well, just because they're feeling good about something. I'm not saying that's wrong, but that vastly broadens the content of the thread. Fabulous to me and fabulous to FictionalGirlX22 can very well be two different things. And honestly, would I post there to contradict her? No, that would make me an awful person, and it's not even in the purpose of the thread to give anything but positive criticism.

In the Could I pass one day? and Do I pass? threads, either because they themselves aren't in a very advantageous situation, either because they've experienced people being devastated by comments, people are often way too nice and way too optimistic regarding how feminine someone looks. You can't blame them. After someone became suicidal because I told her I didn't like how she did her make-up at all, I've learned to be less honest and/or not post.

We can't fool ourselves: all a transsexual person is likely to go through leaves marks, and that can include overreaction, defensiveness, delusion and extreme fragility, and the effects of that have been seen a lot on the forum. I don't intend to bash on anyone or blame people, and I won't go very far in this direction. All I want to say is that many of you might have noticed that Susans' members should generally be handled in a special way, to avoid anger, sadness, etc. And again, I don't mean to say that as an insult or anything remotely like that. It's just that many people who are going through a lot or did so in the past can't be interacted with like your common anyone, and by definition the coounity of this forum includes a lot of these.

As a result of that, it's sad to say, but completely honest opinions are hard to get on Susans, because commenters are biased. Sometimes they were like that to begin with, for various reasons I've hinted at before, and sometimes they became that way after seeing many trans people, or living bad reactions to their honest, constructive criticism. There are also differences in point of view. Some people think that no matter how many there are, masculine characteristics that can reasonably found in women pass completely. Others think that you don't truly pass until you're unable to remotely pass as male even if you try hard. Somewhere in the middle, there are people who think that to pass is simply to generally be seen as female by strangers. And an infinity of possibilities aside those. What it means to pass to the picture poster, to the commenter and to another commenter can be three different things, which can cause various problems. That's fine, but one has to understand that to fully understand the opinions they're given.

As for the title... Well, everyone knows a picture isn't everything, and the thread, even though it's very much centered onto that, isn't limited to pictures. If people want a more complete opinion, they can post videos or sound clips, can't they?
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
No more updates
  •  

Michelle S.

My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...

I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.


  •  

kyh

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...

I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.

Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.

:)
  •  

Devlyn

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The thread times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...

I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence and presentation that makes you a fantastic woman that you are.

I think it is more the case that a good percentage of the members here don't go to those threads at all. So you will see the same people, the participants.  Me, I stay out until the firehorn sounds.
  •  

Joanna Dark

Quote from: A on June 25, 2013, 04:34:29 PM
In the You look fabulous thread, people post according to how they think they look fabulous, no matter how it looks to them. Some post there knowing that they don't pass too well, just because they're feeling good about something. I'm not saying that's wrong, but that vastly broadens the content of the thread. Fabulous to me and fabulous to FictionalGirlX22 can very well be two different things. And honestly, would I post there to contradict her? No, that would make me an awful person, and it's not even in the purpose of the thread to give anything but positive criticism.

In the Could I pass one day? and Do I pass? threads, either because they themselves aren't in a very advantageous situation, either because they've experienced people being devastated by comments, people are often way too nice and way too optimistic regarding how feminine someone looks. You can't blame them. After someone became suicidal because I told her I didn't like how she did her make-up at all, I've learned to be less honest and/or not post.

Well I always thought the Fabulous thread wasn't for criticism but a celebration of female presentation regardless of passablity. Just the simple act of living fab and rocking cute tops and hot skirts.

And as far as the Do I Look Female thread I think it is just that. How well do I pass as female? I mean I might not be totally non-clockable but I pass as female to strangers 99 percent of time and this is with androgynous presentation. So I try not to pay to much attention to some opinions.

I know there are some here that say they are "just being honest" when they are only pointing out there minor flaws that no one else but a transsexual would ever notice and it is kind of unnecessary to point it out. There is just being honest and there is just being an A-hole. Pointing out flaws to someone who passes completely and is super pretty is not the same as being honest. Sometimes I think people confuse Do I Look Female with Do I Look Pretty. They are two different things.

BTW, I do basically completely agree with you and I actually value your opinion on passing pretty highly because I have found you are very good at walking the line between honesty and cruelty. I know you have commented on one of my photos before and said I passed but the lack of makeup to cover some acne and the beard shadow effected it. And I agree. Plus there is something I can do about that: wear makeup and get laser. So I found those were very helpful comments and prolly helped with my ability to pass as I now work harder to cover up those flaws. So that was a prime example of what I would consider honest criticism and basically telling me I pass obviously helped me think this lol

Good critique on this thread though. But lay off FictionGirlXX what did she ever do to you lol jk  :P

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...

I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.

OMG Michelle I feel almost exactly the same way! it is uncanny. The whole pack mentality has really upset me in the past and made me feel left out. And I totally get you on the femme presentation thing. I don't wear dresses or tons of makeup either and so I feel like I shouldn't post in the Fab section because I present so andro. Though I am sure in the future I'll totally rock some lacy, femmy skirt and a cute top and some kick a** pumps. In fact I can't wait as I am waiting on laser before I go all out.

Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:59:45 PM
Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.

:)

You're so sweet and  awesome kyh! Love you!
  •  

Michelle S.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 25, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
I think it is more the case that a good percentage of the members here don't go to those threads at all. So you will see the same people, the participants.  Me, I stay out until the firehorn sounds.

No, I totally think you're right. They're not the hang out place for most of us. What bothers me though is that you can post and sit there for hours... nothing... Then someone from the "in crowd" posts and all of a sudden the thread explodes. This one person will get a page's worth of comments. But, will anyone bother to give us one? Hardly ever. That's what really grinds my gears; one person literally gets pages of replies and us, we get nothing...

I've even posted and come back to see that instead of providing me feedback, they've rehashed some "in crowder's" photos from two pages back - typically someone who's already received pages of compliments - and it turns into another "oh wow she's so pretty" for 2 more pages...

It's clearly evident just browsing. I think these threads rely on a "Hey you're my buddy here's what I think" and a "well I like how femmie you look" system that excludes people like me.

I'm really sorry to rant but again the OP of this thread has done this to me and I really have a hard to not pointing that out since we're all of a "point out flaws" mentality in this thread.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 25, 2013, 05:07:49 PM

OMG Michelle I feel almost exactly the same way! it is uncanny. The whole pack mentality has really upset me in the past and made me feel left out. And I totally get you on the femme presentation thing. I don't wear dresses or tons of makeup either and so I feel like I shouldn't post in the Fab section because I present so andro. Though I am sure in the future I'll totally rock some lacy, femmy skirt and a cute top and some kick a** pumps. In fact I can't wait as I am waiting on laser before I go all out.


Thank you. I have literally sat here crying, just destroyed because of these people. I remember the first time I posted in Could I Pass One Day. I was at a really low point in my transition, the point where I wasn't seeing the effects of HRT and I thought I would never pass. I was in such a depressive state in those days. So, I thought, hey these girls can tell be objective observers, I'm sure they can help me! I took all the photos asked by the thread description, posted and waited. Like a kid waiting for Santa, I sat here face deep in the screen. I refreshed non-stop for like 2 hours. You know what advice and help I got? Nothing. Instead I got to watch these people go goo goo over everyone else in a vibrant dress and the layers of make up. Never once did anyone ever reply to me and for that, that moment where I felt even "these people" - the trans community - thought I was too ugly to pass or worthy of help, I will not forgive those people. It hurt a lot. So think about that people next time you decide to ignore us on the little "am I pretty" threads...

Sorry for the rant, but it certainly a sore subject for me..

Also, yeah I'd love to look femme and wear dresses but I have severe Psoriasis. If you look at my avatar, it's on my neck. I literally look I just got out of a tub of boiling water. I usually wear a sweater just so I don't have to see it so the last thing my self-esteem can afford is to put some revealing dress on and post it for an entire community to potentially see. Not that I think I would be judged for it but I can't stand to see my skin and the idea of anyone else seeing it horrifies me.


  •  

Michelle S.

Quote from: kyh on June 25, 2013, 04:59:45 PM
Next time you post you can message me a link, and I'll check it out and comment. I'm just one person, but maybe I can give you some valuable feedback.

:)

You're so sweet! Thank you so much, that would mean so much to me :)


  •  

Shantel

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Michelle,
        Don't let me upset you, I admit to not having looked and not commenting at times and I'm thinking that it's rude and having my own epiphany about it I'm also encouraging others to leave a comment as well. I'm not a part of any pack and have a mindset about the vanity threads more like Devlyn. I don't post my own photos in them and don't look at them as religiously as others do. I simply brought the subject up to suggest a little more fair play for everyone. BTW - Saw your pix and you are very pretty and feminine appearing. My best to you Michelle!
  •  

Jamie D

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 25, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
My only criticism is that the people in the vanity threads are like a little pack. Unless you're in with the "in crowd" don't expect to get more than a single comment or two.. if you're lucky. The three times I've posted, only one time did anyone even bother to comment. It really annoys me to no end. And, every time I've posted in them, the OP of this thread completely ignored me doing just that... So I'm sorry if I sound rude but you're not making people feel too great Auntie Shan. I've almost left this site a couple times this whole pack thing irritates me so much...

Could also be a "femme" thing. Maybe since I'm not in a dress with tons of makeup, I'm not deserving of anyone's help...

I have no problem with someone who doesn't "pass" posting in the fab thread and things like that that others have mentioned. The truth is pass to me might not be pass to you. Fab doesn't mean you're the most unbelievably femme, passing woman on the planet; it means you have the confidence, style and presentation that makes you fabulous woman.

You properly point out that in any social structure, cliques can develop.  Sometimes they are a form of mutual support.

I personally see the "Fabulous" topic as pure vanity, the "Before & After" topic as inspirational, and the other passing topics as informative.

With thousands of posts being made each day, I find it difficult to constantly visit the topics.  Basically, as a moderator, I am on the lookout for trouble.  That often happens on the rant boards, introductions, and in the HRT fourm.

So, I apologize if I missed your posts in any of those topics.  I try to make sure no one ever fails to get feedback.  Often, mine is by PM.
  •  

A

Michelle S.: Don't be sore about it. It's likely that in the wave of comments for that other person, your post was drowned in others. That's the big disadvantage of making it a topic instead of a section. Comments have the exact same value/visibility as "topics" (people asking for opinions). With people quoting pictures, it's made even more confusing. Tons of pictures showing up on the page, but only a few (or none!) are new. I think it's unlikely that people "snobbed" you. Most likely, they didn't see.

There's also the fact that giving constructive criticism takes a lot more effort (and implies a lot more risk) than saying "yes, it'll be great, whoo", which can lead to FEWER answers in posts in which there are obviously flaws. Both out of pure laziness/being busy and out of fear. But none? No, you need another factor for that.

And by the way, I think passing while dressing androgynous is a lot more amazing than passing in frilly clothes. :p
A's Transition Journal
Last update: June 11th, 2012
No more updates
  •  

Michelle S.

Quote from: Shantel on June 25, 2013, 05:28:40 PM
Michelle,
        Don't let me upset you, I admit to not having looked and not commenting at times and I'm thinking that it's rude and having my own epiphany about it I'm also encouraging others to leave a comment as well. I'm not a part of any pack and have a mindset about the vanity threads more like Devlyn. I don't post my own photos in them and don't look at them as religiously as others do. I simply brought the subject up to suggest a little more fair play for everyone. BTW - Saw your pix and you are very pretty and feminine appearing. My best to you Michelle!

Thank you and I'm sorry I went off there. In all truth, you're one of those people I see as like the "mom" figure on here. So just having you acknowledge me makes me feel so much better!


  •