Passing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face. It makes transsexuals invisible, that is problematic for some who feel that being visible is important to advance the recognition of those who are transsexuals.

[/quote]


I found this topic most interesting as passing is important to me even if I don't do it very well. Yes to some extent passing does make us invisible but isn't the point of having gender dysphoria or GID to be on the outside what you are on the inside? To be the girl/woman we are?

In my psychological assessment the other day I was told I needed another person that I could confide in and talk things through with (I seriously have no one). I said I had no one and then the psychologist spoke of the self help groups they have at the clinic. I said I would not want to sit with men in wigs. Sorry don't want to be seen as awful in saying that, my point is that society (said already) do not accept men in wigs as women and will never do that. I suppose I want to identify as a woman to others, (god I know I have a long way to go). I do identify myself as a woman and a man in a wig just does not cut it even with me. So if passing means being invisible as far as someone who is transgender then I will have to disappear.

Just my ramblings of a nutty woman.

hugs and kisses

Nigella

     

Regina: I am the one one who said this

Passing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face. It makes transsexuals invisible, that is problematic for some who feel that being visible is important to advance the recognition of those who are transsexuals.






During pride , I was thinking how I don't like drag queens because people lump the drag queens and the not very passable transsexuals into the same basket. I understand how you might not want to sit with "men in wigs" and the need to be treated and perceived as a woman.

I understand that how it feels, but I am just saying that a normal cisgender woman would not mind being around drag queens or men in wigs, so why should we care so much about how we are seen?

I want to be perceived as a *normal* girl, and I know how nice it is not to think about transsexualism and just live a *normal* life, but I don't think we can tell others what their goals are just because they are transsexuals.

Maybe someone's past is important to them, and being a transsexual is important to their identity because it helps to connect them with the past, maybe being around trans people and helping them is important for their own sake. We help ourselves when we help others, and if we know how hard it is to transition, maybe we would want to offer our help to others as well, why else do post op transsexuals still visit this forum?

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Nothing makes me annoy more when someone said ..."I am straight but I am for gay rights." When someone says that, the first thing that comes to my mind is why are straight people so afraid to be thought of as gay? Why do we care? We shouldn't, because believe it or not, saying that we don't want to associate with other people because we don't want to be perceived as being similar to them is just reinforcing prejudices and a hierarchal society. 

I think it is a kind of a defeatist attitude, but that's' just my "reality."

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 02:05:02 PM

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Asiangurliee

Thank you for helping me here. I have been conscious of wanting to blend in and not be noticed. I was the one that said after my psychiatrist said about the self help groups that I did not want to sit with a bunch of men in wigs (that related back to what Regina had said).

because at the moment I don't blend that well at that particular clinic I did get people turn around and look at me. I that felt embarrassed. Next time I go I will not care what others think and if they want to speak while I wait for my appointment then so well and good if not, well, they will have lost out.

hugs and kisses

Nigella

QuotePassing is silence, it silences the discrimination and oppression that transsexuals face.

So true!

I'm Jewish, and have lived most of my life in non-Jewish areas. Consequently, I've often been in situations where someone might say something anti-semitic, not necessarily realizing that anyone Jewish was hearing it. In those situations, I'm "passing" as white, who I truly am is invisible, unless I make a conscious choice to speak out, which I do.

From the beginning when I transitioned, I felt similar connections in being trans and being Jewish. Passing perpetuates our oppression. I totally understand the need to pass, especially considering potential dangerous situations, and I respect anyone's choice to do so. But to me, it's important to live in truth of who I am, and not hide my history.

QuoteNothing makes me annoy more when someone said ..."I am straight but I am for gay rights."

I agree it is unfortunate that we might not be able to eliminate oppression alone, that people won't take our causes seriously, until the straight world also stands up and says, discrimination is wrong. That being the case, I'll take all the allies I can get, be they glbt or straight.

zythyra

Quote from: Nigella on July 14, 2007, 03:16:39 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 02:05:02 PM

I think it is dangerous for anyone to be so scared of being seen as a transsexual, I am trying to not care, it shouldn't matter if I am being seen as a transsexual or not, and making passing such an important thing for self acceptance just adds a lot of superficiality on the whole transsexual issue, if someone thinks I am a transsexual, let them think that. I don't want to feel like I have something to hide and I don't want to cut off my association with other people simply because of how I might be perceived if I am with them.

Thanks for reading my post! I am not saying anyone has to write transsexual on their forehead, but one shouldn't have to go out of their way to avoid drag queens or not very passable trans people.

If we really want to be *normal*, than we shouldn't be so afraid of being seen for who we are and associate with whoever we want, that might probably help with *passing* too, acting natural around *all* people.

Quote from: regina on July 14, 2007, 04:18:14 PM

Quote from: Ell on July 14, 2007, 01:16:47 PM
yeah. but also, those of us who are currently in the androgynous phase of transition -- so what? i know i look weird. but if you don't like how i look, too bad! i feel so much better even at this stage, that no one's going to stop me.

and as for crossdressers, who often get a bad rap, i have lots of respect and gratitude for them. they were the ones who really introduced me to the concept of transexualism. while i feel quite different from them because i want the body much more than the clothes, still, they are psychologically every bit as much of a girl as any ts i've ever met.

Eli, please read my post again and try not to project onto it. I never said anything negative about non-passable people, only that they tend to be treated with less respect in Internet forums, support groups and in the media. I would never suggest that's fair or a good thing. Nor did I say anything negative about crossdressers, I just feel the vast majority of them are coming from a very different place than transpeople and I do find it hard to deal with my own issues while they're often coming from a perspective that doesn't connect much with mine.


Asiangurlee,

As long as society tosses transpeople, straight crossdressers and dragqueens together in the same pot, I feel that discomfort will continue. It's nice to say, 'just ignore it and be yourself,' but when people miscategorize you they are sometimes denying the very core issue issues you're trying so hard to deal with. The vast majority of crossdressers and dragqueens these days view themselves at heart as straight or gay men. That is very different than someone with intense gender dysphoria who identifies or experiences themselves to be female, even though there may be some minor common interests in dealing with presentation or discrimination. I feel that, even though it's not the most evolved behavior to distance oneself from someone else that you feel proximity to inadvertently mislabels you, I feel we all need to cut ourselves a lot of slack and understand we are in an extraordinary situation that will, at least temporarily, express extraordinary emotions and sensitivity. We should all do what we need to do to get through this and not harshly judge ourselves.

Gina M.

Very good point. It's hard to transition, and we need to do what we need to do make ourselves feel as comfortable as we can. I just don't want to separate myself from others and indirectly reinforce to the gender binary, something I don't believe in , although I am a female but I like gender diversity and taking gender too seriously is an entrapment for all of us who live in this society and I do not want passing to be an essential issue for our safety and otherwise. I just want to feel free and I will support causes that encourage diversity because I know it benefits me in the end, no matter who I am. 

I find passing very difficult, anymore.

It was much easier when I had my '750' than it is with my Plymouth, now. 

Rhonda--LOL 

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 14, 2007, 05:19:07 PM

Quote from: regina on July 14, 2007, 04:18:14 PM

Quote from: Ell on July 14, 2007, 01:16:47 PM
yeah. but also, those of us who are currently in the androgynous phase of transition -- so what? i know i look weird. but if you don't like how i look, too bad! i feel so much better even at this stage, that no one's going to stop me.

and as for crossdressers, who often get a bad rap, i have lots of respect and gratitude for them. they were the ones who really introduced me to the concept of transexualism. while i feel quite different from them because i want the body much more than the clothes, still, they are psychologically every bit as much of a girl as any ts i've ever met.

Eli, please read my post again and try not to project onto it. I never said anything negative about non-passable people, only that they tend to be treated with less respect in Internet forums, support groups and in the media. I would never suggest that's fair or a good thing. Nor did I say anything negative about crossdressers, I just feel the vast majority of them are coming from a very different place than transpeople and I do find it hard to deal with my own issues while they're often coming from a perspective that doesn't connect much with mine.


Asiangurlee,

As long as society tosses transpeople, straight crossdressers and dragqueens together in the same pot, I feel that discomfort will continue. It's nice to say, 'just ignore it and be yourself,' but when people miscategorize you they are sometimes denying the very core issue issues you're trying so hard to deal with. The vast majority of crossdressers and dragqueens these days view themselves at heart as straight or gay men. That is very different than someone with intense gender dysphoria who identifies or experiences themselves to be female, even though there may be some minor common interests in dealing with presentation or discrimination. I feel that, even though it's not the most evolved behavior to distance oneself from someone else that you feel proximity to inadvertently mislabels you, I feel we all need to cut ourselves a lot of slack and understand we are in an extraordinary situation that will, at least temporarily, express extraordinary emotions and sensitivity. We should all do what we need to do to get through this and not harshly judge ourselves.

Gina M.

Very good point. It's hard to transition, and we need to do what we need to do make ourselves feel as comfortable as we can. I just don't want to separate myself from others and indirectly reinforce to the gender binary, something I don't believe in , although I am a female but I like gender diversity and taking gender too seriously is an entrapment for all of us who live in this society and I do not want passing to be an essential issue for our safety and otherwise. I just want to feel free and I will support causes that encourage diversity because I know it benefits me in the end, no matter who I am. 

i find this funny, because i entirely concur with what has been said here...
the problems are with societys view of trans, as the obvious ->-bleeped-<-s and dragqueens, IE, crossdressers and TVs, who contain a large proportion who id as male. (or female for drag kings) and this is taken by a visually influenced public as being how 'trans' folk are. This lumping creates the divide, i fear that most dont know transexuals have gender dysphoria, and just 'like dressing up' so much they do it permanently. ive suggested in the past Transexuals and intersex folk transitioning should be divided off from the TG umbrella, (infact anyone suffering GID enough to require changing thier visible gender. because if we dont, then acceptance wont come from the right direction, there needs to be a medical emphasis, once people realise we have a problem, and understand this is the cure, they will treat us differently, not just accept what were doing, they will not even bring it into question. the same way as people treat a person with cancer, thier the person first, disease second.

I agree with you.

But I really question if people *want* to differentiate the difference between transsexuals and drag queens. It may be that they seriously *do* think transsexuals are just committed drag queens , a lot of people discriminate against transsexuals because they honestly choose to and they honestly choose to NOT be educated about the issue, it doesn't matter how much separation we choose to have, and beside, there will always be more separation , like the pre op and the post op.

I don't think separation is the key to acceptance. I think the key to acceptance or tolerance is to question why people are so offended at the idea of people who challenge the gender binary in general (I know a lot of transsexuals don't consider themselves to be challenging the gender binary, but I think the public views anyone who transition from their birth sex to be breaking the gender *rules*)

So, I don't know. I know I am all over the place, but I just think people are bigots because they want and choose to be, not because of what we ourselves do and who we associate with.

Do you think if they can prove that being gay is not a choice, and it is a hormonal or genetic thing, people will start approving homosexuality?

No, a lot of people just won't accept something because they want to be prejudicial.

I think we would be falling to the "divide and conquer" tactic if we do not try to be inclusive in our own community.


There is nothing wrong with playing or changing your gender, plain and simple. It doesn't mean we are all the same, but it means that the current gender binary is not inclusive and that's what we should be challenging. I know it might be tempting to say "but your condition is serious, it is not for fun!", we can still make that distinction but I don't think separating ourselves into our own little group would make us more accepted. 

nope, this is a game of politics, and social engineering, not whats right and wrong.
people dont challenge ->-bleeped-<-s cos they want to, they do cos they belive thier right... prove them wrong, and they look silly.

i think differentiating will get transexuals accepted faster. then expand the ideas. point is. we can make people agree with us, and still think thier right, by showing them we arnt homosexuals, or drag queens.... they belive in medicine? well we have amedical problem, these facts arnt usually put out much, and the obvious folk being dqs, or gay, doesnt help...

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 03:53:46 PM
nope, this is a game of politics, and social engineering, not whats right and wrong.
people dont challenge ->-bleeped-<-s cos they want to, they do cos they belive thier right... prove them wrong, and they look silly.

i think differentiating will get transexuals accepted faster. then expand the ideas. point is. we can make people agree with us, and still think thier right, by showing them we arnt homosexuals, or drag queens.... they belive in medicine? well we have amedical problem, these facts arnt usually put out much, and the obvious folk being dqs, or gay, doesnt help...

You can't prove anyone is wrong with science.

Why do you think so many people still believe in creationism even if the science suggests otherwise? Not to mention it is impossible to really have 100 percent proof that someone is born in the wrong body. ( I don't think so anyways)

Many people will still continue to disagree with homosexuality and think that gays should refrained fro same sex activity even if it is prove beyond a doubt that being gay is not a choice. 

one cannot proove or disprove, the world is infinate, one can simply make very significant suggestions in one direction or another. we must simply suggest harder.

Trouble is there will always be jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s claiming to speak for us all, you can't silence them and nor should you really.

Tbh I think the more unpassable people there are in the public eye the easier it is for me to pass as I look nothing like them. That's a totally selfish point of view but it's also pragmatic as I don't have the power to stop people doing what they like as i'd be hypocritical if I did.

i agree maud, sometimes false steriotypes help the whole commuinity, as few are like these 'jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s'

Quote from: Rachael on July 16, 2007, 12:26:56 PM
...
i find this funny, because i entirely concur with what has been said here...
the problems are with societys view of trans, as the obvious ->-bleeped-<-s and dragqueens, IE, crossdressers and TVs, who contain a large proportion who id as male. (or female for drag kings) and this is taken by a visually influenced public as being how 'trans' folk are. This lumping creates the divide, i fear that most dont know transexuals have gender dysphoria, and just 'like dressing up' so much they do it permanently. ive suggested in the past Transexuals and intersex folk transitioning should be divided off from the TG umbrella, (infact anyone suffering GID enough to require changing thier visible gender. because if we dont, then acceptance wont come from the right direction, there needs to be a medical emphasis, once people realise we have a problem, and understand this is the cure, they will treat us differently, not just accept what were doing, they will not even bring it into question. the same way as people treat a person with cancer, thier the person first, disease second.

While I agree that transsexuals and intersex people are a completely different thing than crossdressers or drag queens, I also know that many crossdressers do suffer from GD. In fact it is not clear whether or not transsexuals and ->-bleeped-<-s suffer from different degrees of the same thing. While some crossdressers are clearly sex fetishists, many others talk of this overwhelming need to express their "inner woman". Now, dragqueens I don't get at all, because I have only talked to a couple. I don't understand their motivation for basically mocking women or why this would be attractive to someone who is attracted to other males. Anyway, here is what Harry Benjamin had to say about it.

Quote from: Dr Harry BenjaminThe Transsexual Phenomenom
...
Coming back to the differences between transvestism and transsexualism., another simpler and more unifying concept and a corresponding definition may have to be considered. That is, that ->-bleeped-<-s with their more or less pronounced sex and gender indecision may actually all be transsexuals, but in varying degrees of intensity.

A low degree of largely unconscious transsexualism can be appeased through cross-dressing and demands no other therapy for emotional comfort. These are ->-bleeped-<-s (Group 1).

A medium degree of transsexualism makes greater demands in order to restore or maintain an emotional balance. The identification with the female cannot be satisfied by wearing her clothes alone. Some physical changes, especially breast development, are requirements for easing the emotional tension. Some of these pa

tients waver between transvestitic indulgences and transsexual demands for transformation (Group 2).

For patients of a high degree of transsexualism (the "true and full-fledged transsexual"), a conversion operation is the all-consuming urge, as mentioned earlier and as a later chapter will show still more fully. Cross-dressing is an insufficient help, as aspirin for a brain tumor headache would be (Group 3).

It must be left to further observations and investigations in greater depth to decide whether or not transvestitic desires may really be transsexual in nature and origin. Many probably are, but the frequent fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s may have to be excluded.

If these attempts to define and classify the ->-bleeped-<- and the transsexual appear vague and unsatisfactory, it is because a sharp and scientific separation of the two syndromes is not possible. We have as yet no objective diagnostic methods at our disposal to differentiate between the two. We - often - have to take the statement of an emotionally disturbed individual, whose attitude may change like a mood or who is inclined to tell the doctor what he believes the doctor wants to hear. Furthermore, nature does not abide by rigid systems. The vicissitudes of life and love cause ebbs and flows in the emotions so that fixed boundaries cannot be drawn.
...

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm#Are%20all%20->-bleeped-<-s%20transsexuals?

I also don't understand this need to avoid "men in wigs". I wear a wig because I am going bald which really ruins my own image of myself as a woman. Like many women who wear wigs for a whole variety of reasons, if done right, one can't tell it's a wig. I presume this was most likely just a metaphor for "unpassable transsexuals", although I can't be certain. I mean, what happened to judging people by the "content of their character"? Can one be so certain that they can not benefit from someone because of their outward appearance?

I mean, are we just talking about bigotry here? We can't even cut transsexuals who need a wig, some slack? I mean, does it make them bad because the testosterone in their body destroyed their hair? Is this just saying, "I don't hang with ugly people"? I am really struggling to understand this. Is it a fear of being outted by someone who is clearly transsexual?

I don't have a "cause", I am not an ambassador for the transsexual community. I am a human being trying to live my life. Can't we get past bigotry and say to society that there are people who feel a different gender than their body and if you see one, treat them as the gender they desire to be? Even if they are not passable. Cut them a break? I mean, I know there will always be bigotry but let us not forget that it used to be illegal to crossdress, there was no such thing as GRS/SRS, interracial marriage was illegal, homosexuality was illegal. The attitudes of society can be changed, but how can we ask society to accept anyone as long as we ourselves have our own bigotry? As long as one person is devalued because of their gender expression, we are all susceptible to discrimination. I think we have to get past the reason someone dresses or expresses themselves the way they do and just accept we are all different and devalue no one.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Rachael on July 17, 2007, 04:57:08 PM

* Rachael passes maud the anti jerry springer ->-bleeped-<- shotgun.

i agree maud, sometimes false steriotypes help the whole commuinity, as few are like these 'jerry springer ->-bleeped-<-s'

I personally blame Jerry Springer. Anyone with money and celebrity status and their own tv show can find some desperate, poor, or attention seekers to exploit.

The blame is mostly on people like Jerry Springer, who has no ethics and uses his fame, money and status to exploit those who are not as fortunate.

I would blame the people who watch Jerry Springer, there is also Maury, who is just as bad or worse, unfortunately these freak shows  get ratings and it wasn't Springer or Maury, there would be someone else. With or without the Springer type shows, bigotry would still exist though. Even so-called liberals make fun of people like Anne Coulter because she has an Adam's Apple, calling her "Anne the Man" Most men are very insecure about their sexuality and transsexuals force them to confront their demons.

hey, we transitioned just so we can convert these poor defenseless straight men and turn them gay, where have you been?