Quote from: Amy T. on July 15, 2007, 02:14:01 AM
Exactly and they like to make these clear determinations and classifications, when the reality is its the same conditions,  there is a stink of elitism and exclusivity that is offensive. 

And as an "always knew," I'll admit it's even tempting for me to fall into that attitude, as I find myself thinking, "how could anyone not realize such a fundamental truth from the start?"

Then I remember how my sexuality "evolved." I was basically just seriously confused when growing up about who I was attracted to and what I needed. In hindsight, it's sort of a "duh!" thing, but at the time it was buried under so much other junk it was just impossible to see it clearly. It was only later, when I really started to untangle the mess trying to cope with GID had made, that I "figured out" what I needed. And yet, I bet there are people reading this right now thinking, "yea, RIGHT, like that's something you can not know from the beginning!"

So I can imagine GID itself playing out the same way in many people. Even if I am just a secondary heterosexual

~Kate~

None of us were in anyone else's shoes so we can't truly know what they experienced. Primary, secondary, M2F, F2M, etc, perhaps we could all agree on one thing, that growing up gender variant was pure hell.

What level of hell? 1st, 2nd, 7th? Hey, regardless of what level of hell, it's @#$%^&* hot down there!

zythyra

QuoteThe phenomena of feeling aroused when one imagines themselves a woman certainly exists, but his conclusions as to WHY are kinda nuts. Fantasizing about having sex with a guy as a genetic female certainly turns me on like nothing else. But why wouldn't it if I'm really a heterosexual female in my mind?

Kate, the more i read about you the more i feel surprised how your story and background are similar to mine.

And at the same time the more i read about what Nero had to live with, or what Tink suffered in her past i really feel there is a major difference to my case. So i can't help but endorse their perspective and recognize that a distinction should be made.

However i wouldn't really think the key factor has anything to do with the time GID manifests, what really seem to be different to me for primary are the following points.

1) A clear gender identity in childhood (which is opposed to the genetic sex).

I think that for a child having such a strong and clear gender identity is something really unusual and amazing, expecially considering how even in adulthood many people still are confused. Even if we accept the theory of "a girl trapped in a boy's body" and viceversa, i don't think everyone would go as far as to constantly claim to be of the opposite sex. Shy and remissive personalities would just shut in themselves, forcing themsleves to adapt, and constantly debating about their true gender identity, more bent to believe what others tell to them rather to believe on what they truly feel.

2) The total (or almost total) inability to adapt to the genetic sex role (may be that because someone actually feels to be incapable or because someone shows a very strong will to don't adapt).

The fact that many transexuals managed to live for a long time in their natural assigned sex, while being accepted from society, due to the fact they are well capable to conceal their true identity, shows a certain degree of adaptability. There might be a very wide spectrum of different ways to adapt. The "zombie mode" described by Keira is an example, but there might be some other ways with a higher degree a social functionality. In this case someone might even live with the belief that he/she can somewhat function in the role that society impose to him/her, even so not in the best way, and in a sort of miserable life.
Unlikewise those that consider themselves to be primary never thought they could function accordingly with their karyotype, most of them never accepted the idea of being anything else but what their gender identity tells them to be. I'm thinking here about Tink's frequent statements "i've always been a girl" and Kate's "I never thought i WAS a girl".

These are the differences that i can clearly see, despite any other classifications about primary and seconday listed so far.

For me personally, I knew I felt different from other boys at around age 5ish but I didn't think "I am a girl."  I knew something was not right even at that age, but it took until I was 11 or so before I actually knew so to speak. 

As much as you are ranting it all seems very tame.  I had to deal with peer sexual abuse during several points in my childhood, dating from grammar school to middle school.  There was several instances that if it were not for teachers or coaches I would have been raped, but it didn't matter it already screwed me up.  As much as you went through, it seems relatively tame.  I was literally beat with whips, chains, branches and belts by my peers on several occasions. When people passed me they shoved me into lockers, pinned me down, took punches at me. Somebody pulled a gun out at me twice at age 13.  And it was not until a kid broke an arm on my forehead was I ever left alone before my 14th birthday, and that entire summer I did not step out of my house (in fact I rarely stepped out of my house period).  This goes beyond all the language I had to endure on a daily basis.  The very fact I survived middle school and was never suicidal, is amazing. 

The truth is I started HS out fresh, it seemed like paradise for me because I escaped the physical abuse, which honestly was daily torture.  The verbal taunts which happened on occasion did not phase me, because compared to everything else I went through it was amazing I survived.

As much as people say that "unless you walked in my shoes", the truth is, my childhood was hell.  I have talked to people who thought there childhood was hell, they end up thinking things were not as bad as they thought while I give a four hour rundown of what my daily life was like and some of the worst things that happened.  Even than its the tip of the iceberg. 

I was not a perfect kid by any means, but I did not deserve the level and extent of abuse I got I concentrated more on my studies with all the abuse and when I got to an academically competitive high school with a strong creative arts environment it paid off.   My parents wondered why I refused to go out until they figured out what was really going on, which they were outraged at, but by then it was too late.


Also it really does bother me that people hang onto these definitions.  Because the categories are too narrow for an issue that is significantly more broad.  Both primary and secondary have been used to deny people treatment and the narrow categorization may fit some, but what of the others who do not fit either definition.  I am sorry, but these definitions and classifications are highly flawed, and luckily most therapists and gender specialists these days see it the same way. 

Also I knew from age four I was different, but I was not conscious of the reasons why. Its pretty obvious I was treated differantly by other kids as well.  I knew there was something wrong with me being a boy, but could not figure out what. 

That is why I stress putting so much faith in the onset of gender consciousness, which the always knew people do, is extremely flawed.  You are hanging onto antiquated concepts of primary and secondary that most gender specialists have  since had the intelligence to abandon, I think it is time you gain that same enlightenment. 


^{edit - removed quote and reference to deleted posts that my friend wrote while I was out.}

I believe the controversy these labels produce is very good evidence of the inapplicability to our community.  It's the inherent hierarchy that seems to do the most damage.

When I mention the ability to develop coping strategies I did NOT mean to imply strength or the lack of it.  Please do not misconstrue.

Some of us had the words to define ourselves at an early age, I didn't.  I strongly suspect that I was thoroughly indoctrinated into the idea that I have a penis therefore I am a boy - no ifs ands or buts - and I became convinced until a very long time after than t this was true, even though I knew I was not like the other boys.  Some very early memories and inconsistencies, which my mom still refuses to address, make me think this way.

I usually refrain form threads that argue labels and definitions.  If I've learned anything is that labels are usually more damaging than helpful when we appy them to people other than ourselves.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

QuoteIf secondaries have this amazing herculean strength, then why do they become so desperate when GID hits in adulthood?

Answer to the first question in my opinion:

It's not a matter of strength. It is a coping skill, not necessarily a good thing. Trauma does weird things to people. The best analogy I can come up with is someone that is sexually assaulted. A person that suffers continual abuse often develops "the ability" (makes me cringe) to shut themselves off and endure the pain and suffering in silence, usually without complaint.

I have seen this same reaction in many late-onset transtioning persons. You can view it as an ability, a gift or a dysfunkshun depending on where you are viewing the situation from.

The second point:

Mid-life crisis, or review. We all do it when we hit middle age, regardless of gender. Men are usually berated for reacting emotionally during this time, or making a lot of changes suddenly.
I think that many people fall into this trap of plodding thru their life, and then one day they wake up, look back and go, WTF happened?

Sometimes, quite often, something will happen in their life or in someone else's that touches them and wakes them from the slumber. Could be near-death experience, illness, a death in the family, loss of a relationship. Something that shakes up their world and their thinking. We all tend to begin to slumber thru the monotony of life at some point.

It's really the same forces at play in the queer community. People realize suddenly that their whole life is a lie. And then everyone gets upset when they shake things up, because so many other people have become intertwined and dependent on their life. But they don't really exist.
They are a phantom.

Which leads me to the conclusion, that just as the average age of transition has lowered from about 30 to 35 down closer to 20 to 25, that someday there won't be many secondary transsexuals. As more and more come out as queer earlier in life, so too will more and more transitioning people come out earlier and enjoy fuller and richer lives. We are all losing our fear, and becoming both more visible and more accepted.

There will come a time, when someone mentions someone was born transsexed, that no one will even blink. It will just become another facet of people like how tall you are, or what color is one's hair. You are all at the forefront of a revolution and most of you don't even realize it.

QuoteBut, Nero, a classification system that excludes most, how good can it be?
And in the end, does it really matter unless we're actually grading people on pain suffered? Which I would never want to do, because I don't even want to recall the painfull events in my life.

I'll second that. I was being flippant in my earlier post, but if you are going to draw a distinction - a hard line in the sand as it were - than you have to do it at puberty. Anyone that enters puberty and goes thru the "normal" physiological and psychological changes as well as the welling up of socioeconomic forces is going to have to deal with a certain level of GID at some point.

Just because a person does not verbalize or react to an internal hurt does not mean that they are not freaking %$#@&*^ out! It means they have developed an ability to function while being &^%$#^ up. That is what a dysfunction is! There are many, many people in the world that cannot deal with anything in their own lives on a daily basis, but they can pull themselves out of bed and march off to work like a drone every morning of their lives. Then they go home and collapse like a house of cards.

People that transition are no different. Some people hide for years and experience regret.
Others get up off their ass and help themselves. Not only is it impossible to measure a relative level of discomfort, it serves no purpose.

Yeah, I know you are bitter. Lots of us are bitter, no one more so than me. But ranting about how people do not recognize your or anyone else's pain solves nothing. Trying to seperate or distance yourself from other people solves nothing. Labelling does nothing but lift and seperate. 

Some clown in a suit decided that this is way it's gonna be. Some people will get labelled primary and some secondary. It's arbitrary!  Most people don't fit neatly into either grouping.
If anything, it should only be used in a clinical sense to determine who is at greatest risk for harming themselves. And why do I feel a new debate coming on?

All of this angst over labelling is rather sophomoric IMHO. Why am I not surprised?

Another thrilling Sunday afternoon at Susan's alternative high school. Now serving bitter angst and cold doses of reality in the cafe.

The thing is primary and secondary is not even used in the clinical sense anymore.  Most people who specialize in gender identity issues have abandoned the terms because they found them to be inappropriate and offensive and criteria in the classifications  to be highly offensive (especially the age of onset and sexual orientation elements).

Most clinicians now completely ignore the DSM-IV, and any Blanchard designed terminology.  Sexual orientation matters very little.  They see the crap classifications for what they are: highly destructive and when it gets down to it meant to deny treatment (which by the way is exactly what Blanchard used the terms for in his gender clinic, along with autogyphelia). 

If you did the research on these terms and actually dug into the modern articles on the problems and how inaccurate these terms are, you would discover why any qualified gender specialist does not use them anymore.

In fact I would put this board near the bottom in terms of education on this issue and trueselves near the top.  Of course trueselves actually has transwomen who are doctors and therapist who actually are well educated on the history of Blanchard and these classsifications and have written numerous articles on the problems and the history of the Toronto gender clinic where these problems emerged. 

I could go on, but there is no such thing as a primary or secondary transsexual.  There never really was.  There is a transsexual, and thats it. 

Quote from: regina on July 15, 2007, 01:09:20 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 15, 2007, 02:25:04 AM
what the heck ever! I am not most ftms. You spend one hour in my shoes as a child, and then maybe we'll talk.

I'm not going to play 'my life was worse than yours...' you're the one who did say you always suspected puberty for ftms was more traumatic than for mtfs. Obviously, a lot of that statement comes from your own life. I would never put a spin on your life because you're the one who's lived it. But let's not pretend you didn't say something when you did.

All I know is what I've experienced as a rather femme child and boy and what I saw around me. Whether you ever were identified as a tomboy or not, ON AVERAGE, the space to be a tomboy gives natal-females a place to express masculinity. Yes, that sometimes changes when they're older, but as adults they still can dress totally male, have a male haircut and engage in as many 'masculine' pursuits as they wish and society isn't going to bat an eyelash. There are a large number of straight women who dress totally butch (masculine clothes & hair), especially in rural areas. Even in the queer communities, ftms are so often given a free pass that mtfs don't get. It's not easy on either side, but let's not pretend it's equal either.

I've been an elementary school teacher and I've seen it daily in the classroom and playground, tomboys or even outwardly butch/masculine girls have an accepted place at school (and that doesn't mean they don't get any mean comments or ostracizing behavior)— feminine boys do not. In a third-grade class I taught last year was an Asian natal-girl who dressed completely male, had a boy's haircut and only played sports with boys. She was totally accepted in class. Not only are femme boys not accepted by other students (except some girls) but the teachers and school administration are totally not supportive of these children. In that same school was a boy who is quite femmy, didn't want to play sports and only played with girls. I was upset to see the principal had no intention of dealing with the teasing and social pressure this boy was facing. His parents (also immigrant an Asian family) seemed more embarrassed by him instead of dealing with this issues.

I'm sure most people who were at all out or obviously gender variant have horror stories about adolescence, but that doesn't change the huge difference in violence and even job discrimination that exists between ftms and mtfs. Almost all of the arrests and violence involving incidents using public restrooms involve mtfs (a recent exception was one that happened to a butch woman who is suing). Almost all the murders, assaults, and even verbal abuse happens to mtfs. This is why passing is a big issue in this community, and minimizing how it became important negates an important history of abuse.

I don't like the term passing, nor do I appreciate the mean pecking order it creates in trans communities, but I totally understand how it can liberate trans people from insulting judgment and assumptions as well as the immediate impact of violence in their daily lives. It does free up people from their anxieties about these issues, and allows them to live more 'authentic' lives as the women and men we are. Why is that such a bad thing?

Gina M.

I know some female to male university professors, I have never seen a male to female transsexual professor teaching at my university.

It's a man world, and people who are *becoming* men have an easier time finding a better job than male to female transsexuals, that is just my opinon though, I can be totally wrong.

 
They basically told the school to control the issue best you could or find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit.  The problem by than they saw as the other kids.   Basically my parents said the problem is with the school and the kids, figure out a way to fix the problem as much as possible.   Luckily the threat of a lawsuit kept them in line, and actually lead to the expulsion and suspensions of some of the worst offenders, but this was by the time I was nearly out of middle school. 

Adults did notice it was going on.   The difference is when it started to get real bad and when my parents finally caught on they started to threaten legal action to the schools and to the parents of the other kids once they started to listen through my cries.  It is the only thing they finally did, and for all the crap I went through recently it is the one thing I am thankful they did. 

My point being as bad as you think you had it there will always be somebody who had it worse.  If there is any problem I see here is your parents nor the school know how to take appropriate action.  Things change very quickly when you get a lawyer involved. 

Generally speaking Nero you seem to be the exception to the rule for most transmen.  I am not saying that childhood was a cakewalk for them, but the truth be told, in many cases it is easier for them with regards to childhood.

In fact the MtFs who repress things and conform, and who can, do so because they know the dangers of not doing so. 

^{edit - removed reference to deleted posts my friend wrote while I was out.}  

Amy,

Where just discussing issues here,
We are not establishing medical dogma.
The replies here certainly have a varied slant.

To "educate" those that have a contrary point of view,
you have to see from their point of view first, find out
why they believe that this theory describee them.
Sensitivity is key to the gentle art of education,  persuasion.

Many boards have homogeneous crowds of highly educated people. Are their opinions unimpeachable? I don't think so; but they do have a higher view of themselves... Got a master in biz, an engineering bacc., so that makes my words gold... NOT!!! There's very little new info coming in on GID and what they do, I also do...  Is offer a better packaged opinion.

Many TS, are not university graduate, or even high school graduates (those generally don't post on any board, so we never hear what they believe, they feel); should we hold them them to a higher standard than doctoral graduates who also can't agree at all on these issues.

I think this board has a better transversal representation
of the general TS community of any out there. But, still its not perfect by a longshot.

Can we please stop with the competitive ->-bleeped-<-ty childhood thing?

This thread could be interesting but every other post I read the first couple of lines I just think "TLDR" Too long, Didn't read.


What it comes down to is the "->-bleeped-<- hierarchy" and where you lie on it and once you actually transition and start to get on with your life then it ceases to matter how high you rank because you yourself have all the validation you need which is implicit in your life not sucking.

Quote from: Mawd on July 15, 2007, 04:33:05 PM
What it comes down to is the "->-bleeped-<- hierarchy" and where you lie on it and once you actually transition and start to get on with your life then it ceases to matter how high you rank because you yourself have all the validation you need which is implicit in your life not sucking.

LOL, I love it

Someone once said:

Quote2. Focus on what you NEED, not what you ARE. Ignore the threads on who is a real woman or not, if only real TSs hate their genitals and want SRS... skip the COGIATA and other tests to "prove" you're female inside or whatever. Let the other people fight and attack one another with their insecurities, you can't stop them... and just quietly slip out of that noisy room and go do what needs to be done. You need to justify nothing whatsoever to anyone, especially yourself.

~Kate~

is rejection from peers really relevant in regard of this topic? what if someone is lucky enough to find himself/herself in a better environment? Not all the schools in this world are as bad as the one you described.

QuoteWhat it comes down to is the "->-bleeped-<- hierarchy"

Maybe we should just stop seeing it as a "->-bleeped-<- hierarchy", anyone of us has a different story, and anyone of us is for many factors similar to each other yet different for some others. Having experienced more pain doesn't make you better, having experienced pain first doesn't make you better, having a homesexual or heterosexual orientation doesn't make someone less or more true in regard of transexualism, and there's no strenght in adaptability as much as it's true that a slab of clay isn't stronger than a plate of steel. Different? Yes. Better? No.

just my two cents...

*giggling devilishly*  Well, I think each of us know what we are and what we call it, being primary, secondary, better, worse, one, two, under, over, first, second or what have you.  I know what I am and I'm sure you do know who you are too, I hope.

Each and every one of us knows what our childhoods were, what we experienced, and what we did not experience.  We can rant, cry, and whine all we want but deep down we know where we all stand.  Personally, trying to convince people of what you were or weren't is a complete waste of time and energy.  In my case, I am NOT the one who transitioned when I was sixty or seventy, I am NOT the one who is constantly making nonsense threads about the definitions of terms which should be universally known and understood by those who supposedly "suffer" from them.  I am NOT the one who is constantly arguing the validity of criteria for diagnosis.  I am NOT the one who has an agenda and want to impose my "fantastic" beliefs/experiences/feelings to eveyone else.  I know what I am and so do you. 


tink

Primary?  Secondary?  I think you will find many of the "older" transitioning people (or what some are calling Secondary) were born before the computer age.

Show me where the information was available for those of us born in the 30's, 40's or even the 50's.  It certainly wasn't something you would find at the library.

In my opinion (and mine only) I think you will find less and less people transitioning in their 40's or 50's, now that information is available and it is being talked about "somewhat" openly.  I can certainly say that if I knew what this condition was and what to do about it in my teens, I would have transitioned RIGHT THEN.

Living through school when you don't fit in can be terrible (I would use another word, but someone might think I am swearing) I learned how to disappear into the walls, to not be seen, to be invisible to those around me.

I am not always good at expressing myself, so I hope I am clear in my meaning.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Nerolol you know I was totally agreeing with you before this post. First off - I never said that my 'pain' or whatever makes me better than anyone else.
If you were following this thread, you would know that I only recounted an example of my 'pain and suffering' or whatever, because some stated that 'ftms don't suffer'. I don't take kindly to having a significant experience in my life discounted or belittled, and I highly doubt you would either.

Don't misunderstand me, i was not questioning that. i was trying to bring back the topic about the definitions of primary and secondary, didn't mean to be insensitive in any way.

Quote from: NeroThere is a difference between a transsexual child who could not adapt or assimilate into their birth gender and one who did with ease. I'm sorry if people have a problem with that, but that's my opinion.

I would totally agree if you'd say: "There is a difference between a transsexual child who could not adapt or assimilate into their birth gender and one who somewhat managed to do."
I hardly believe there is such a thing as a transexual (late or early) that had a perfectly normal childhood, i might be wrong. Your puberty was a hell, hands down, but that doesn't mean mine was a cakewalk.

QuoteI never ever said that one was more valid than the other, just different. I've encountered arrogance from those who functioned in their birth sex, and I'm sick of it. If you could assimilate into your birth sex with no problem, you simply did not experience GID as early or as severely as a primary. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. It has nothing to do with environment.

You know i was actually referring to the one that see the distinctions between primary and secondary as threatening which seems that are mostly the ones that according to your theory would be secondary cases. at the point you could add that "All primary believe in secondary and primary transexualism" "secondary don't". I guess that nobody likes the idea of being labeled "second" in any way. So i was like saying, ok let's just try to look at it without any bias please.
For what concern those arrogant people, i don't really know who you are talking about, but i guess you shouldn't really care about what they say if they really are arrogant. Let them say.

Quote from: Nero on July 15, 2007, 04:51:22 PM
And incidentally, Amy, failure to assimilate into birth sex in childhood, and rejection from peers is listed under primary. And I've stated a zillion times in this thread before your posts the huge difference between a primary who walked through hell during childhood and a secondary who sailed through it.
So I don't know why you've got your panties in a wad over anything I've said.

Posted on: July 15, 2007, 04:41:14 PM

---

Quote from: Amy T. on July 15, 2007, 04:16:36 PM
Generally speaking Nero you seem to be the exception to the rule for most transmen.  I am not saying that childhood was a cakewalk for them, but the truth be told, in many cases it is easier for them with regards to childhood.

In fact the MtFs who repress things and conform, and who can, do so because they know the dangers of not doing so.   

Maybe you're right on that one. I've never heard another ftm mention a hard time assimilating. It just still stings very badly when people assume I've had it easy. This did have a huge negative effect on my education and future, and I'm often told it's all my own fault. Before all this I was a straight A student, the top of my class, and loved school. Oh god, I'm crying now. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to belittle anyone else's experiences. This just still hurts very much.

Nero, I did not mean to take you had it easy.  Like I said, I really should have not been so combative in the previous threads.  I am really sorry about that, I did not mean to open old wounds.  Alot of us had it tougher than others.  I still very fortunate because I was able to sail through high school without to many problems (oddly enough through not conforming to gender norms) and get a really good education beyond that.

Life has been really tough for you, and honestly I know how that feels.  I am sorry for being so combative, and mean and dismissive.  I kind of crossed a line I shouldn't of.
 

Someone here said that we, as a community are diverse, and I couldn't agree more with that statement.  Our motivations, reasons, feelings, and what have you are totally different from everyone else's.  We are not the same and will never be.  People who think otherwise are not being realistic. 

Now, does this fact make us better, worse, number one, number two, number three million?  Only *we* can decide that for ourselves.  How *we* see or consider ourselves shows on these posts/threads.  No one can make *us* feel inferior if *we* don't let them.  It takes *our* own permission to let people make *us* feel the way we do.

tink