Wow, thanks for all the responses. After reading what everyone had to say, I think that more than anything else, this is just a question that doesn't have one definitive answer. What I took away from this is, that if you do feel like you'd rather be a girl than boy, maybe it doesn't make sense to worry about why. If you really want it, it's probably better to just accept and embrace it, instead of spending all your time worrying and questioning your own motivations.

Quote from: EmmaS on October 19, 2013, 06:54:46 PM
Ultimately, you just have to be honest with yourself and picture yourself living your life as a male and a female and then determine which one fits better. Some days I wonder if it's worth the hassle to transition, but I quickly come to the conclusion that it's essential for me to be happy. Sorry to have such a boring reply to the question, but I just want to make it clear that there are myriad variations of males and females and there isn't anything wrong with that as long as you are being honest to yourself. Hope that helps some, if not, sorry wasting your time.

Not at all, what you just said makes about a million times more sense than anything that has gone through my head in the last week. If I picture in my head what it's like living as male, and then picture what it's like living as female, the later one is definitely the one I'd rather be living. I'm just concerned that my perception is skewed by just how much life sucked living as a male. Living as female may make me feel better about myself, but it wouldn't solve all my problems, and it would almost inevitably create new ones. I guess the only way I'll know if it's what I really want is to try it and see how it goes.

Quote from: Miyuki on October 19, 2013, 08:51:38 AM
I think the problem I'm having is that while I'd like to be seen as a girl, I have trouble accepting myself as one. I'm just too used to thinking of myself as male. I always had this clear idea in my head that a girl was something I wanted to be, not something I was.

...this is why I really need to see a therapist to help me sort things out. I can't tell if I'm trying to talk myself into something I'm not comfortable with, or if I'm just holding myself back from something I really want out of fear. Maybe a little of both. The idea of going back to identifying as 100% male disgusts me, but the idea of going 100% full time as female scares me.

I have the same problem and it REALLY scares me. I call it the Superman or Batman Complex. I feel that I am either Superman or Batman. As superman was different than everyone else he created this role that he viewed how he should act in society. He Knew he was Supeman, but to the outside world he was just Clark Kent. This would be a transgender playing the role of male.
   
Then there is Bruce Wayne who had tragic issues so he create this other personality called Batman. He spent all this money trying to be Batman instead of dealing with his issues. At the end of the day, he was still Bruce Wayne, the issues did not go away and to some degree got worse.

Am I Superman, truly a Transgender and the masculine personality is my view on what a Male should act like? Could it be that I'm Batman, trying to create GID to mask my own depression and tragedies in my Life?

I used to have a long diatribe about what it means to be a girl, but that was fueled by my intense dysphoria, and now my explanation is far more simple. 

For me it's what I am today and nothing more.  I have plans to make myself more complete, but those don't affect the woman I am today, and there's no need to become another person. 

Being a girl is to be yourself without really trying.  With progress in transition we adapt in new ways that are tailored to fit our individual needs, and we begin to let the woman inside make the decisions.  And then along comes a time when everything we do fits and compliments our personality. 

This is what cis girls do.  They also try to achieve a place in life where the person inside is complete and satisfied.  They develop a personality to match the girl they want to be.  And just like us, at some point they don't even think about who they are, or try to be anything else.

Quote from: Miyuki on October 19, 2013, 06:36:07 AM
It makes me feel more confident, and it makes me feel like I'm being myself.

This, pretty much.

My view is that, for me, I don't attribute a long list of things to being female, and that's what it is. And were I like that, I would consider myself female.

I look at it the other way around. I look at how I am, and attribute some of that to being female. Granted, I also attribute some of it to being human, too.

For me, personally, what draws most of my attention to anything to do with gender at all is more of a physical thing. Dysphoria, constant mismatch between outer and inner. A feeling of incongruence. Often distressing. That anatomically speaking, the parts I have are just wrong. And a sort of internal knowledge that the only thing not right about me, is the outer shell. Not right in that the image I see of myself in every other way, is female. I guess you could say gaining more of an understanding what's right by knowing what's wrong. (There's plenty not right with me in other ways, lol, but none of that has to do with my gender. More my... screwed up-ness).

As for mentally... what does it mean to be a girl? It means just being me. It means just expressing the way I always have. I don't see that I would need to lose or gain certain emotional responses in order to take on the mantle of being female. Only correct the cause of the dysphoria. To align the outer and inner. I suspect that were this to happen, most of my thoughts of gender would disappear and I would just get on with doing it rather than thinking about it. Like pulling a tooth which aches constantly and no longer thinking about what foods I can eat which might aggravate it. Chowing down on life, as it were, lol.

But everyone draws different meaning. For some it's social, for some it's physical, for some it's mental or emotional. Or a mixture of some, all, or none. There's no real right answer, other than the one you find for yourself.

Quote from: misschievous on October 20, 2013, 10:03:35 AM
I have the same problem and it REALLY scares me. I call it the Superman or Batman Complex. I feel that I am either Superman or Batman. As superman was different than everyone else he created this role that he viewed how he should act in society. He Knew he was Supeman, but to the outside world he was just Clark Kent. This would be a transgender playing the role of male.
   
Then there is Bruce Wayne who had tragic issues so he create this other personality called Batman. He spent all this money trying to be Batman instead of dealing with his issues. At the end of the day, he was still Bruce Wayne, the issues did not go away and to some degree got worse.

Am I Superman, truly a Transgender and the masculine personality is my view on what a Male should act like? Could it be that I'm Batman, trying to create GID to mask my own depression and tragedies in my Life?

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one with that problem. What I've been trying to tell myself, is that if I were using being transgender as just an excuse for why I always felt so depressed, why would that even make sense to do? Out of all the things I could use as an excuse, how on earth would I have decided on that one? And why would it be that trying to deal with the problem as gender identity disorder is the only thing I ever tried that made me feel even slightly better? Also, what Sybil said about people transitioning just because they want to sort of struck a chord with me. Have we been conditioned to think that the only valid reason for transitioning is because you have a mental disorder? If you want to do it, why not do it? People do things just because they want to all the time, why not this? As long as it makes you happy, right?

After doing this for a few years, my answer is a bit nuanced. Being female just is what it is. It's how I need society to see me in order to feel like they're not talking to someone else. It's being severely and adversely affected by T and completely normal and natural with appropriate HRT. It's knowing up and down, no matter what anyone tells me or what I tried to tell myself before transition, that I was just a girl and not a guy. It's this truth that I can't escape, no matter how hard I ran.

It's not tendencies. I do girly things. I do things would be looked on as not-girly. This bothered me for a while. Now it doesn't.

At first, I thought that doing things that weren't girly was verboten. I thought that people would see me as 'false' the second I did something that a ultra-femme girl wouldn't do. It took me a while to realize that I was the one projecting that on myself. I slowly came to actually just accept that I was female and that nothing I did, nothing I said, no outward projection of any behavior, action, or anything else could change that.

The facets of life as a woman are many and varied. The ways that women live and act are as diverse as the number of women there are. Nothing defines being a woman other than being a woman and that's just kind of the way it is.

For us, it's strange and hard to deal with. People have told us since we were born that we were boys and, for those of us who had to grow all the way up, that we were men. The messages and experiences we've had have all been filtered through the understanding that others have taught us. It takes some time to unwind what people have said from the core of our identities. Therein, lies the work of 'transition'.

Day by day, you remove the expectations of others that were made of you and layer by layer, you learn to accept what you are without the reservations that came with them.

For me, being a woman (not girl, as I'm fully grown and settled into my adult life) includes all of those things. The growth, the awkwardness of transition, the truth of myself, and the knowledge of my dreams and desires. It is my expression, my friends and family, my sensuality and my competitiveness. It is the whole of me, through and through. There is no part of my person that is not a woman and every part of me is what makes that the truth.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 20, 2013, 05:25:09 PM
After doing this for a few years, my answer is a bit nuanced. Being female just is what it is. It's how I need society to see me in order to feel like they're not talking to someone else. It's being severely and adversely affected by T and completely normal and natural with appropriate HRT. It's knowing up and down, no matter what anyone tells me or what I tried to tell myself before transition, that I was just a girl and not a guy. It's this truth that I can't escape, no matter how hard I ran.

It's not tendencies. I do girly things. I do things would be looked on as not-girly. This bothered me for a while. Now it doesn't.

At first, I thought that doing things that weren't girly was verboten. I thought that people would see me as 'false' the second I did something that a ultra-femme girl wouldn't do. It took me a while to realize that I was the one projecting that on myself. I slowly came to actually just accept that I was female and that nothing I did, nothing I said, no outward projection of any behavior, action, or anything else could change that.

The facets of life as a woman are many and varied. The ways that women live and act are as diverse as the number of women there are. Nothing defines being a woman other than being a woman and that's just kind of the way it is.

For us, it's strange and hard to deal with. People have told us since we were born that we were boys and, for those of us who had to grow all the way up, that we were men. The messages and experiences we've had have all been filtered through the understanding that others have taught us. It takes some time to unwind what people have said from the core of our identities. Therein, lies the work of 'transition'.

Day by day, you remove the expectations of others that were made of you and layer by layer, you learn to accept what you are without the reservations that came with them.

For me, being a woman (not girl, as I'm fully grown and settled into my adult life) includes all of those things. The growth, the awkwardness of transition, the truth of myself, and the knowledge of my dreams and desires. It is my expression, my friends and family, my sensuality and my competitiveness. It is the whole of me, through and through. There is no part of my person that is not a woman and every part of me is what makes that the truth.

YES THIS!!

I was the same at first....oh I can't do that! I may appear as a man! On no!! Now I get it more from men...oh honey let me get that for you, or you can't do that! Huh what do I look like some weakling.

It has taken me a bit to get this far...at first I would never want to appear to be strong....now I tell people I have muscles, look....and then they just laugh!!

The opposite is also true...I didn't want to appear too feminine or do things just because that's what females do. I can say I didn't fall into this habit and in fact may have taken it to seriously. I have since wore some dresses and even had my nails done a couple of times...but most times my nails look pretty crappy like many other cis women's.

This reminds me a what happened today. I was helping a couple at work...I commented on the woman's manicure since it was very nice and also had a symbol of a college football team. She appeared fairly high maintenance and was very attractive.....when asking her this I was a little shocked to hear her say she has never gotten a manicure! I wasn't shocked to hear a woman say this...since I have talked with many that haven't...it's just she seemed like the type that had one done every week. Hmm goes to show how pre-judgments are not good to do!

One thing that may make me appear more feminine is the way I sit. I cannot sit without crossing my legs...this has nothing to do because of transition though. I have always sat like that years before I transitioned...in fact it was more awkward then since I never appeared feminine or gay. Its just very comfortable to sit like this and very strange not too. Many women do not though.

OP you have no idea how much I relate to your post. My mouth literally dropped as I read it.

Every question you said is going through my head and I'm glad I'm not the only person with them haha.

I am not really sure, but I believe it is like... being a girl or being a boy, is how you see yourselves.

If you want to be a girl then be a girl.

If you want to be a boy then be a boy.

I think the answer is very "zen" like, meaning there is no right or wrong, it is what each of us feel it is and it may very well have a bit of everything you stated above.

I like Kathy's comment "to be yourself without really trying"

I despise being male and it's tough to have to do it for parts of my career.

However...the other day as I looked down thru my pretty blond hair and saw perky boobs, a girly curvy waist, long smooth legs and sparkly purple toenails I just let out a big happy "sigh" with an equally big smile.
It just feels so natural that I almost hate myself for not demanding to "be myself" at age 8 and beyond!

We've all seen and heard the question "what one thing would your older self tell your younger self if you could go back in time" well there is my answer

Here's my take on it... based on what articles there are out there and my impressions of those articles... it's opinion - that's just where mine is based.

I understand that there is a part of the brain that makes us male or female. I personally, as a transgender woman pre-HRT, consider myself to always have been female as I believe that is the most important part of gender. I consider myself to have been born with an intersex condition - though I'm sure current medical standards (and insurance plans) wouldn't agree. The wrong hormones make this condition painful. It is where the body dysphoria comes from. Our rooted understanding of our own physical gender is hormonal, but the knowledge that we're of one gender or the other - our gender identity - is intrinsic (non-hormonal). I think this is why many of us are more strongly transgender at puberty than early in life... the understanding of our gender identity (non-hormonal) can be overridden by a strong societal gender imprinting. Society's imprint often gets overridden when the hormone flooding overwhelms the gendered part of our brain, causing (often extreme) anguish and discomfort. Those of us who pass through puberty without coming out still have the anguish, lessened by the end of puberty. We may learn to deal with it in other ways... but we are still female, even while trying to deal with appearing male. We may not know that we're female.

I also understand that most gender roles are imposed by society. Girl's toys and boy's toys are equal to the child raised without imposed gender roles (something I think is practically impossible in current American society, though it can be done incompletely). These roles are imprinted by age 3 and strengthened throughout our lives. I believe there are intrinsic qualities to being male and female, which a recent article suggests is not true, but in my experience (and in talking with other trans women) we communicate better with women and tend toward more feminine activities (though the latter is hardly set in stone). Male and female activities are like boy and girl toys at the adult level. There's even more crossover and activities dominated by one gender or the other is primarily societal, though partly physiological (sports vs. reading, for example - one is active, the other inactive - both men and women often enjoy both activities).

I think we usually fit in with our true gender, not our assigned gender. This cannot be entirely based on societal imprint of gender. If all women loved to talk about sports I don't see how I'd be interested in sports now. I could very well be underestimating society's role on our own gender identities, but I have to believe there's a deeper reason I don't usually enjoy male conversations.

We're female, but that also doesn't make us anything we don't want to be. Every woman is different. There's no such thing as "girl-this" or "boy-that," something I'm trying to teach my own kids now. If I want to drink beer and watch sports, it doesn't make me less of a woman (I know lots of women who do). If I don't care about my appearance and want to believe that society's requirement for women to look good is wrong - that's fine... but if I want to wear make-up and look as good as I can (within reason) that's ok too.

I've gotten accused (veeery passive aggressively) by my wife of being vain. I think we, as trans women, have a tendency to act more feminine, with make-up and clothing, because we hate being so masculine in body. There's nothing wrong with that - though it's probably bad to take it too far. Personally, I haven't - but my wife has never used much make-up (I don't think she owns any lipstick) - so to her it looks like I've gone off the deep end with it.

I'm pre-HRT, so my views may change significantly (I only have others' stories to go off of), but I don't believe any of what we do is required to be female. I think our problem is about half seated in hormones and physical body and about half in societal impositions (give or take). We like to feel more feminine because we've been further from feminine than any other woman for all of our pre-transition lives. It's not required, but it feels good and helps our problem... and that makes it right for us to do, but that is not what being a girl is.

That is a very good question. From my life I was always a girl inside from very early age. In grammer school I knew it was wrong for the teachers to "put" me with the boys. I hated changes as a teenager, deeper voice, bigger, etc..... Forced to play football however I should have been a cheerleader.

Any now trying to remove the wrong T things & let some normal estrogen help to maybe improve my body.

Quote from: Assoluta on October 19, 2013, 06:18:26 PM
I think being female or a woman is purely a sense of identity. A woman who acts in ways that are considered "male" or has "male interests" (which vary by culture and time period to some degree anyway) is still fundamentally different to a man who 'acts' in an identical way. While behaviour/interests etc do have some bearing on identity, and allow expression of it to some degree, in fundamental concept, I believe they are fundamentally peripheral to core identity, including gender identity. If you accept this idea, it makes self-gendering much easier in my view, because your gender identity isn't clouded by one's transgression of societal norms. In a sense, hobbies and stereotypical behaviours, even though they can often reflect one's identity, they can sometimes act as 'noise' around one's true identity, and when you eliminate this noise, your core identity becomes clearer to hear.

I think this is really spot on. It's a sense of identity. CisGs exhibit quite a range of mannerisms, physical appearance, and hobbies that it's hard to define "what is means to be a girl."

The OP mentioned that she doesn't like to wear skirts. I know plenty of CisGs who don't like to wear skirts. The OP also said something about male-orientated video games. Same thing. I know many CisGs (and I hope I'm using that term right ) who are sharp COD players.

In many ways, I am where you are at. I am five weeks on hormones and am having trouble giving up some male habits (walking around topless and peeing standing up for example). However, as I progress, my male self becomes more absorbed by my female self and she comes out more and more. It's all a matter of forward movement.

Hope this makes sense.

Jane

Quote from: JaneNicole2013 on October 21, 2013, 11:34:31 AM
I think this is really spot on. It's a sense of identity. CisGs exhibit quite a range of mannerisms, physical appearance, and hobbies that it's hard to define "what is means to be a girl."

The OP mentioned that she doesn't like to wear skirts. I know plenty of CisGs who don't like to wear skirts. The OP also said something about male-orientated video games. Same thing. I know many CisGs (and I hope I'm using that term right ) who are sharp COD players.

In many ways, I am where you are at. I am five weeks on hormones and am having trouble giving up some male habits (walking around topless and peeing standing up for example). However, as I progress, my male self becomes more absorbed by my female self and she comes out more and more. It's all a matter of forward movement.

Hope this makes sense.

Jane

Yes... exactly that

Male habits, though... I haven't peed standing in a month and I never felt comfortable walking around topless (though between my bedroom and bathroom in the basement - if the kids aren't right there - I'll run back topless for something -- usually the radio).

It is so easy (even for us) to confuse sex and gender as being one thing, but they definitely are two very distinct things.  I think this is the source of confusion here, and don't worry I was similarly confused when I was first coming to terms with things.

However, this is how I see this problem now.  Whatever brain function or process in my head that controls sex identity tells me in no uncertain terms I am female.   I can't tell you why, or explain the mechanics or chemistry going on there, I just know, with no doubt, that that is how it is.  For me, the only thing that matters to feel ok with myself is that I am seen and accepted by society and myself as a woman.   When that doesn't happen I feel terrible.   Really, gender constructs have nothing to do with dysphoria for me as long as I am perceived to be female.  If I was wearing a suit and idk chopping wood or something lol and was still seen as female by 100% of people watching me, then I would not feel terrible.  I would never choose to do either of those things, but that doesn't matter.  Also, I don't think I could pull that off and be seen as female anyway, which is a reason btw to try looking and acting the part—you probably will have to (to some extent) in order to pass.  OTOH if I was wearing a dress and sewing curtains but perceived to be male, I would hate my life in that moment.

I am a pretty feminine person and mostly enjoy things women typically enjoy, but for me, being able to express my feminine side and explore those interests of mine that society has deemed feminine without dealing with a lot of sidelong glances and judgement is just a lovely bonus that comes with being accepted as female.   It is not the reason I transitioned.  And the few masculine traits I still have, that managed to survive transition, I consider to be core elements of my being and I embrace them completely.

Quote from: Jen on October 21, 2013, 02:00:20 PM
It is so easy (even for us) to confuse sex and gender as being one thing, but they definitely are two very distinct things.  I think this is the source of confusion here, and don't worry I was similarly confused when I was first coming to terms with things.

However, this is how I see this problem now.  Whatever brain function or process in my head that controls sex identity tells me in no uncertain terms I am female.   I can't tell you why, or explain the mechanics or chemistry going on there, I just know, with no doubt, that that is how it is.  For me, the only thing that matters to feel ok with myself is that I am seen and accepted by society and myself as a woman.   When that doesn't happen I feel terrible.   Really, gender constructs have nothing to do with dysphoria for me as long as I am perceived to be female.  If I was wearing a suit and idk chopping wood or something lol and was still seen as female by 100% of people watching me, then I would not feel terrible.  I would never choose to do either of those things, but that doesn't matter.  Also, I don't think I could pull that off and be seen as female anyway, which is a reason btw to try looking and acting the part—you probably will have to (to some extent) in order to pass.  OTOH if I was wearing a dress and sewing curtains but perceived to be male, I would hate my life in that moment.

I am a pretty feminine person and mostly enjoy things women typically enjoy, but for me, being able to express my feminine side and explore those interests of mine that society has deemed feminine without dealing with a lot of sidelong glances and judgement is just a lovely bonus that comes with being accepted as female.   It is not the reason I transitioned.  And the few masculine traits I still have, that managed to survive transition, I consider to be core elements of my being and I embrace them completely.

I would of like to write this myself...your understanding of yourself is so much the same as I. 

I will add a couple of more feelings though that confuse my thinking. I very much believe being female is similar to what you wrote....gender is very much reinforced by being excepted as how you perceive yourself.

An example of this is how my children have changed their perception of me to the point I am able to tell they are treating me like any other female and do it naturally.....but because I have been their father for many years it is hard for them to call me she all the time and they still call me dad. I can be at work all day...go run errands and just do everyday business...during all this I do not think much about my gender and just feel like a normal women. When I get home though I start to feel different with the first "he" or with "dad". There are no females that get called dad or he!!

I can also do this to myself....opposite of what you said I have been in some very manly situations (not by choice) during this time I may have looked a bit unkempt because of the situation, and similar to what you wrote even at times like this I am still perceived as female but because of what I am doing and the way I look at the time, I start to feel manly...I don't fear being mis-gendered...I am more disgusted with how I feel about myself.

So even though I am in a situation similar to what you wrote....It ends up being me that perceives myself wrong....during times like this being perceived as female still does not cause my own perception of myself to change. It just goes to show I am my worse enemy!!

I actually am with you on that.   When I say 100% of people percieve me to be a woman, probably the most important person that needs to see me that way is myself.   Maybe i would change how I put it and say that as long as I percieve myself to be a woman, it doesn't matter what other people think,  but in reality what others think does matter because if anybody sees me as male then i will invariably see myself that way too for days afterward.

That is a question that I put a LOT of time and thought into when I was young, particularly why was I so sure that I was or needed to be a girl. (It took my  mother 8 years to put a dent in my identity!). It was a question I didn't really have an answer to until many decades after transition and SRS and one that now makes perfect sense.

Despite what the "politically correct crowd" say, there are specific and measurable differences between males and females right from birth (not 100% accurate and universal but certainly ALMOST universal) and there are clear differences in the psychological and social development between girls and boys, mostly to do with the timing at which different steps of learning or development take place - ALL BEFORE PUBERTY! (It all makes perfect sense if you consider the current theory that transsexualism is a result of 'cross-sex' hormone exposure during gestation.)

When I learned about the sex-based behaviour differences and the differences in development I TOTALLY understood why I identified as female right from childhood - because other girls were at exactly the same developmental stages I was at and I was always able to relate to girls so easily while boys were at a completely different stage of development. I "fit" with the girls, understood the girls, and was always way more comfortable among the girls because we had so much in common and so few differences.

In looking back at my childhood and adolescence from so far down the road, I responded to life and life's situations exactly as a young girl would at that age and the real confusion came from people trying to convince me that I WASN'T a girl!

So, for me, being a girl means being at home in the society of women and being very much an outsider among men.

Just my perspective......

This is part of the reason why the decision to transition has been so difficult for me. I always suffered from severe social anxiety, and fitting in with people of either gender was an uphill battle. I eventually ended up socializing more with boys by default, even though it was a constant struggle to fit in. Overall I have extremely limited experience socializing with girls, and I really have no idea if I'd be any more comfortable socializing with them than I was with anyone else. But that's why I'm looking into going to a meeting of the local transsexual support group. The way I look at it, if I fit in there, I probably don't have anything to worry about. At the very least, I've been gradually toning down the masculine personality at home since coming out, and doing so has made me feel a lot more relaxed and positive about life in general. That's certainly been a welcome change of pace.

How about being you. I've worked in the most macho of professions, in the worst conditions, and excelled, however, the desire to be female and have my nails done, followed by shopping in Beverly Hills was never far from my mind. Now that I'm in my 6th month of HRT I've never been happier, nor am I looking back at that life.

Just be you.