Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on July 26, 2007, 07:27:31 AM
i'm already bad at math 

WARNING:  watch for these symbols:     and   

they are heralds of an incoming attempt at *humor*

do not, i repeat, do not, under any circumstances, take any of ashley's comments which precede the and seriously.

said comments *may* or more likely *may not* actually be funny. 

your mileage may vary.  void where prohibited.  objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are.

I understand it was humor and the way that it read was "I'm bad at math and females are stereotypically bad at math, so therefore I must possess a female brain."  That's the only way it makes sense to me at least while still fitting within the topic of discussion.  I was taking your inference of your joke and using that as an example because it was readily available.  It was the same with Wendy's comment.  My observation was merely stated to elicit thought about what people write and that some things just shouldn't be assumed.  That's it.

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

YEP!

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM
Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

NOPE!

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

You're WAY out on a limb here, and I doubt I can reach you to rescue you. It's hopeless. You're a sweet, pretty kitty, but I give up. You're going to perish in that tree.

This is one of my biggest beefs with our community.
I'm just going to be frank here. The vast majority of transpeople have no clue what a man is and what a woman is.
I give up. Sorry, but I'm not climbing that ladder again.

exactly nero....
most trans people play steriotypes, and its laughable...you would think they had never met real women or men.


for one: hugging anyone you just met on the internet, even if it is /me hugs x, is personal space invasion, women dont hug everyone they say hello to. women arnt all lovehearts, swooning romantics, pacifists, and feminist. manbashing, is a largely ->-bleeped-<- pasttime...

really possess the brain of your target gender? or just really wish you do?

i sorta agree gina, except for the techie bit. i know natal females that go on like that... thats not male thinking, its geek thinking...

Quote from: Melissa on July 26, 2007, 02:00:33 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

Well, they probably can to some degree if somebody was on them long enough.  However, it doesn't mean that the person will like having those thoughts if it is not the same gender.  Now, where I'm fuzzy on is: How much of a person's behaviors and mannerisms are caused by hormones and how much is caused by adoption of the social role? 

For instance, before transition, I tended to be somewhat lazy regarding housework because of the expectation that women should take more responsibility for housework (a notion that was instilled in me by my parents).  When I started transitioning, I got out of this rut and started doing more work.  It was only an adopted aspect of the expected role from my perception.  I underwent many changes in the first couple of months prior to transition including becoming more emotional.  This was before I ever started HRT!!!  It means that many of these female aspects resided in me before I ever underwent any physical changes.

However, as I was on HRT, I noticed things would change mentally all by themselves that I had no control over.  It was very disconcerting to realize that you do not have as much control over yourself as you thought you did.  Some of these changes affect your entire outlook on the world.  Here's a good analogy of what it feels like:  It's like looking at a puzzle and having one piece at a time replaced over a long period of time.  Each one affects your picture of life and how you process information.  As the picture itself constantly changes, you are trying to figure out what the puzzle is a picture of.  One day you notice that all pieces have been replaced and the entire puzzle has completely changed.  Then you realize that you are seeing the original picture you started with, it's just that now you are interpreting it completely differently and thus you see an entirely different picture than you did before.

Here's a pictorial example of my analogy:

Another kitty stuck up the same tree.

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

[/font]

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

I am sure we can find cisgender people that overlap each personality trait of the opposite gender.  I do believe that.  Is that your final answer? Yes that is my final answer.

As an aside hormones have removed some of my depression and I am devilish. >   I do see flaws with the following statement: "That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender." 

None of us will argue that emotions change when hormones are administered.  I also think that administering female hormones to a male does not create a female brain.  However can changed emotions influence your behavior?  (Kate I like your analysis.)  Well some of my experiences seem to indicate that my emotional shift has influenced my behavior!

Here is an example:
Hormones have not dramatically changed the size and shape of my body.  However I do feel more vulnerable and my behavior is more cautious.  (It hurts to get punched in the chest.)  Physical (less strength and painful boobs) and emotional (more cautious and less aggressive)  changes  have influenced my behavior.  If we change our behaviors will we influence the chemistry of our brain?  Of cause we have!  The average man has 50% more skeletal muscle than the average woman.  Women by genetics are more vulnerable than men.  Therefore if a behavior is changed which in turn changes the chemistry of the brain "and" that new behavior is expressed more frequently in the  targetted gender then it might be reasoned that the HRT brain is more closely mimicking the targetted gender brain! 

A similar experience can happen between a sexual relationship between a genetic male and a genetic female if the male takes female hormones.  The male becomes less aggressive sexually due to the hormones which influences behavior, which changes the chemistry in the brain.  We can easily have two people not initiating sex feeling "nobody loves me".  :'(i  (I am not sitting here crying but rather using a icon to express the emotion given in this example.)

The bottomline is my male brain on females hormones has not become a female brain but numerous aspects of my brain are emotionally and in turn behaviorally influenced.  These behavior changes chemically altered my brain and in some cases appear to mimic a common behavioral trait exhibited by the targetted gender.

In conclusion hormones have influenced certain emotional and physical changes in me that have influenced my behavior.  These new behaviors are learned and chemically alter my brain.  These new behaviors are not very diffferent from behaviors I have noted in cisgender females (such as seen in my wife) which supports the argument that some of my brain has been altered to mimic the targetted gender.  Therefore in some circumstances hormones seen to have altered the HRT brain to think and act like the other gender.

heres an interesting concept: since starting hrt, ive naturally picked up female manerisms, behaviour, speach patterns, heck, even my voice is natrual female now. does that mean my brain has the right hormonal fuel now?

Quote from: Wendy on July 26, 2007, 04:36:14 PM

Quote from: Kate on July 26, 2007, 01:24:56 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 12:54:25 PM
If a man is given estrogen and a woman is given testosterone - he will still think and act like a man, but be more emotional, she will still think and act like a woman but be more horny and possibly more aggressive.
That's all I was trying to point out. That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender.

[/font]

Is there more to thinking like a man/woman other than the consequences of being more sexual/emotional?

Doesn't gender-thinking sorta start with those differences, and flow out from there into all other aspects of the personality?

Being more emotional, example, has consequences.. you tend to empathize with others more, talk about feelings more than facts, try to soothe and nurture other people when they're down, become more social-oriented, more considerate of others, more focused on situations and mood than physical traits....

Being more sexual sorta implies aggression in seeking out sex, more of a practical pursuit of needs versus feelings, solving problems rather than talking about them, a need to compare *stuff* to see where you rank in the race with other "guys,"...

~Kate~

I am sure we can find cisgender people that overlap each personality trait of the opposite gender.  I do believe that.  Is that your final answer? Yes that is my final answer.

As an aside hormones have removed some of my depression and I am devilish. >   I do see flaws with the following statement: "That hormones can't make you think and act like the other gender." 

None of us will argue that emotions change when hormones are administered.  I also think that administering female hormones to a male does not create a female brain.  However can changed emotions influence your behavior?  (Kate I like your analysis.)  Well some of my experiences seem to indicate that my emotional shift has influenced my behavior!

Here is an example:
Hormones have not dramatically changed the size and shape of my body.  However I do feel more vulnerable and my behavior is more cautious.  (It hurts to get punched in the chest.)  Physical (less strength and painful boobs) and emotional (more cautious and less aggressive)  changes  have influenced my behavior.  If we change our behaviors will we influence the chemistry of our brain?  Of cause we have!  The average man has 50% more skeletal muscle than the average woman.  Women by genetics are more vulnerable than a man.  Therefore if a behavior is changed which in turn changes the chemistry of the brain "and" that new behavior is expressed more frequently in the  targetted gender then it might be reasoned that the HRT brain is more closely mimicking the targetted gender brain! 

A similar experience can happen between a sexual relationship between a genetic male and a genetic female if the male takes female hormones.  The male becomes less aggressive sexually due to the hormones which influences behavior, which changes the chemistry in the brain.  We can easily have two people not initiating sex feeling "nobody loves me".  :'(i  (I am not sitting here crying but rather using a icon to express the emotion given in this example.)

The bottomline is my male brain on females hormones has not become a female brain but numerous aspects of my brain are emotionally and in turn behaviorally influenced.  These behavior changes chemically altered my brain and in some cases appear to mimic a common behavioral trait exhibited by the targetted gender.

In conclusion hormones have influenced certain emotional and physical changes in me that have influenced my behavior.  These new behaviors are learned and chemically alter my brain.  These new behaviors are not very diffferent from behaviors I have noted in cisgender females (such as seen in my wife) which supports the argument that some of my brain has been altered to mimic the targetted gender.  Therefore in some circumstances hormones seen to have altered the HRT brain to think and act like the other gender.

3 cats stuck up the same tree. Dammit! I have fires to put out! Lives to save! You all can stay up there for all I care!

EARTH TO WENDY AND YOU TWO OTHER KITTIES STUCK UP THAT TREE

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16858.0.html

Why do so many transpeople feed into male and female stereotypes? Most natal females would laugh at these ideas.
Men can be passive and women can be aggressive. Men can be empathetic and women can be bitches.
For the last time.
It's not what hormone flows through your veins!

You're either a woman or you're not. End of story!

aye, i was a woman without hrt, hrt is a means to a phsical ends. it hasnt changed who i am, im a girl, and i was one from the day i was born. just in funny wrapping paper ready to pop out 20 years later going 'lol suprise!'

im a tomboy, i dont ACTUALLY own a dress, and have two skirts, only one pair of heels. and 4 pairs of mens jeans and hoodies i wear regularly. Clothes dont make the man or woman
they make themselves.

I had to discontinue hormones for medical reasons.  Other than the pains of going through menopause, it hasn't changed my life at all.  My thinking is still the same.  I still experience the same highs and same lows.

When I transitioned, I thought that the estrogens helped me some but I was never quite sure.  I don't know that they made me more stable emotionally.  Just getting out of Utah was a big stress release to be sure, so I can't really say if the hormones were helpful at that point to me or not.

Cindi

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 04:11:01 PM


The vast, vast, vast majority of geeks (I've unfortunately met) are guys. Even the women I know who are into computer stuff don't talk like that all the time. But maybe I don't know them because I don't want to know them. I can't be objective, I think the geek mindset is boring. (and don't come after me with your ninja swords).

ciao,
Gina M.

I have to agree with Gina here.  I could go into details. 

Most women I know are feminist, but I regular progressive circles...where most women are feminist, and finding one who is not is next to impossible.  I work in the progressive nonprofit field, so this is expected. 

  Most women however are not lovehearts or swooning romantics.  Manbashing is rare. 

(Just because I don't get men, doesn't mean I bash them, I literally can't understand the complete mindset.  I don't hate them, I just can never understand where they are coming from.)

I really don't know if I contain the brain of my target gender...and I am not about to split open my head to find out.  I could speculate, but thats it, speculation.

I would like to add, I don't think acculturation is being discussed enough, because it really does have a huge part to play in this discussion.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 26, 2007, 05:02:29 PM
I had to discontinue hormones for medical reasons.  Other than the pains of going through menopause, it hasn't changed my life at all.  My thinking is still the same.  I still experience the same highs and same lows.

Exactly. And you haven't suddenly turned into a man because of lack of estrogen.

Ok.
Women generally cry more easily and are more emotional.
Men generally have a higher libido and are more aggressive.
And part of this is due to hormones.
But there is so much more to being a man or a woman than that.

yeah, quite true. i know im more emotional now, but thats due to my hormones. they change the outlet of my emotion, with tesosterone, i bottled it up, or channeled it differently. with estrogen, i feel it, i ride the wave. and its much more expressive i feel.
more aggressive? heh, works both ways
more libido? i have some natal female friends who would dissagree. men are more sexually obsessed, women just hide it better

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 06:06:26 PM
But there is so much more to being a man or a woman than that.

Such as...?

~Kate~

Posted on: July 26, 2007, 07:27:57 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2007, 04:54:49 PM
Why do so many transpeople feed into male and female stereotypes? Most natal females would laugh at these ideas.

Awl geez, Nero, I'm saying that too... that chasing definitions is great fun, but ultimately pointless aside from creating groups of "true" and "real" TSs and men/women.

I'm not saying being emotional makes someone a woman, or being sexual makes someone a man... I AM saying that if hormones do anything mentally, it seems to be those two influences. Simple as that. I stop there. All the other stuff about who is real and who is pretending and true TSs and... ick.

Ya know, TSism isn't that complicated. Some people feel a need to change their sex. No one knows why. There are some pretty effective solutions to do it. Some do it, some don't.

But then humans and their insecurities get pulled into the picture, and start twisting and warping everything around them... searches for justification ("I'm a woman inside and always have been!"), searches for validation, avoidance of fears... it all just gets so MESSY and complicated.

It's kinda ashame, as I fear it keeps so many people from just FIXING this silly problem, wasting away years trying to justify to themselves that's it's OK to do so.

QuoteYou're either a woman or you're not. End of story!

How? Defined by what? Or more importantly... by WHO?

I swear sometimes I'm not TS. I just don't relate to this sorta thing anymore where people finally "know" that they're a man/woman, which gives them the strength to transition. I went the other way, and *unlearned* all the baggage that was yanking me around. If you constantly worry about what you are, and if others are "real" men and women, you end up in this constant war and struggle to maintain the definitions you're using to justify your identity and actions. That's just no fun, not for me anyway

~Kate~

I don't knoooow, (chewing gum and twirling my hair)

I picked yes. Either you are male or female. I don't know why a normal male would transition hoping to get a female mind.

Nero good thread but my brain is exhausted.

Excuse me Nero but the off topic caught my attention:

Quote from: regina on July 26, 2007, 04:01:13 PM
Here's a big generalization: on average, I can imagine more masculine-behaving people tend to pick themselves apart less than feminine-behaving people. (thoughts on that?)

Regina I look very much like a male and no one questions my gender except me.  I can not imagine many people on this forum being as brutal on themselves as me.  I do not even consider myself effeminate.  A sample of 1 would say no.

The sad reality for me is that I am approaching insanity.   If no then insane.

you are either a male or a female or both or niether period!

Quote from: Ell on July 27, 2007, 02:28:12 AM
i read in a British TS site that, aside from the reproductive organs, there is actually very little difference between males and females, except in regards to hormones and the effects that hormones have on the body and mind.

i am distressed to hear lots of trans people say that hormones have little effect on the mind. the research says otherwise. it states that being on a hormone regimen for a year will cause significant, irreversible changes in the brain.

and you make it sound as if you don't care whether you ever go on hormones!

hmm...i think you're scared. well, maybe you are right to be. maybe you sense that T is not for you. not that i'm trying to steer you along, one way or another. take whatever route you see fit, take your time. but i think you're the one who's way out on the limb on this issue.

Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

T will not make me or break me. When I go on it, it will only be to become more passable. No more, no less.

(And I'm not addressing you specifically, Ell. I won't stoop to your level and make my argument personal)
To be frank - from my observations, the TS who wax poetic about the 'mental' effects of HRT are the ones hoping it is a magical cure to make them feel and behave as their target gender, because they don't already.
They don't feel like men and women, they only want to be. They put all their faith into a pill, and assume the emotional and sexual effects are what it's like to be men and women.

I shared with my mother last night some of the notions and comments on this thread. She was insulted. Who she is -  is not dependent on some hormone. She said the notion that a testosterone injection would make her think and feel like a man was laughable, absurd, and offensive.

Quote from: Nero on July 27, 2007, 08:15:02 AM
Believe what you will. There's no evidence. I resent that you're making this issue personal.

no offense was intended. but if that's the way it sounded i apologize. i just thought we were having an open and honest discussion.

Open and honest, yes. But about the topic, not the person. This is the second time in a week someone had to make the topic of one of my threads into a personal issue about myself.