I thought I'd come back and add onto the topic. And for anyone who's had similar thoughts or experiences I'd love to hear them.

As I stated in the thread post I took the fact that I had minimal male features into account. Before I even know what being trans was I got the courage at age 15 to step out of my house as a girl. I didn't go far just for a walk around the corner from my house. I was testing the waters. After things went ok I said let's turn it up. I ended up going to two dates with 2 boys from my school. I told both of them I had a twin sister and set them up on dates with myself. The fact that they liked the idea of being with a girl who looked like me was the first breakthrough that I could have a chance at passing. (These are both funny stories with even funnier details I'd love to share at another time lol)

To me in my young age it never crossed my mind that they'ed think it was me, my plain ole boy self in a wig and girls clothes, I just knew I'd not only pass as my "Twin sister" but also as a girl. Things went great. I was in public at the movies with a boy and no one was the wiser. The joy and confidence I had from passing in public was a feeling I'll never forget. This was a defining moment that always made me feel that one day living as a woman was actually possible. If I thought for a second that I wouldn't pass pre hrt & surgery I most likely wouldn't have started transitioning. When I read heartbreaking stories of girls who have de-transitioned from being unable to pass my heart goes out to them. I think it's easier stepping out on faith when you at least have tried true results that things will work out favorably if you decided to move forward.

I always tell my former supervisor, who's a trans man, it's easier to make something soft hard, than making something hard soft. I told him it was way easier for him. Because when people see him with his beard & hairy forearms it's automatically assumed he's a man and it's never questioned. But for a MTF's it's not that simple.

As I grew older I became aware that there were different degrees of passing. Passing all the time, most of the time, some of the time, and none of the time. I saw how girls were treated who didn't pass and this scared me. I thought how can you live your life happily as a woman when everywhere you go people are staring, making rude comments, laughing, or worse? Which is where the "Is it worth it comes in". I know some successful trans woman who are doctors, nurses, hair stylists, make-up artists, party promoters, etc. All of them have one thing in common, They're all passable. I thought to myself last night after posting this topic. Would these women still be as successful and happy if they weren't passable?? I honestly can't say if they would. I feel that in order to move through life smoothly as a trans woman passing is very important. Not only to yourself but to society as well. Beauty doesn't matter because I've seen happy successful trans woman who aren't typically attractive but they pass very well. Aging doesn't matter either because that's inevitable. I think it's more about growing older gracefully. Being healthy, secure, and content with the decisions you've made with the time you've been given.

Quote from: FA on December 04, 2013, 02:37:18 PM
Dude, did you just say I'm ugly? So sad now.


Ha hardly.  Just that women are considered most desirable for a very short window in their lives.

My wife came up with a great line a couple of years ago; "Who in their right mind WANTS to be a 56 y/o woman?". This was followed up with all the usual the bloom is off the rose stuff for women plus all the other down sides for women.

It might be easy to respond with something like "Sure, if I had a choice I'd rather be a young 20 something woman" Unfortunately for me I had that choice, tried exercising that option twice in my early 20's and twice opted to try faking normal. Today's response is still I don't want to, perhaps I need to. Mostly I know I find joy in finally being able to feel good about being me.

There is also an element of "Like a fine wine I got better with age" involved. Perhaps it's a new attitude brought about by the self acceptance and self confidence? For I am sure still as ugly in male mode, just older and ugly today.

this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

I don't think that's a gender thing.... it's an age and maturity thing
As we get older we get wiser, without a doubt... some more than others, for sure, but wiser nonetheless.

That isn't different if your trans* - you just might start out with more wisdom...

I think some of what I said was misinterpreted the point I was trying to make was basing your whole transition off looks is not wise. Sure I understand the want or the need to look good but the thing about looks is they are very fleeting and eventually they fade and what your left with is just yourself.
What got me fired up and wanting to post in this thread was the comment about being a ugly woman the reason why is first off I don't believe in ugly the only thing ugly about a person is their attitude towards life and other people but as far as looks go I don't believe in ugly.
The reason why I brought up the question of aging was this glaring example. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,146363.msg1200472.html#msg1200472 I believe if your not willing to accept the downsides of being a woman you shouldn't be transitioning period. A cis woman has no choice and has to accept the good and the bad that comes along with being a woman and has no choice to whether she is considered beautiful or not but still has to go out there and live.
Being a woman is far more than just how she looks on the outside and it degrades women to just judge them by outward appearances. And just because it's acceptable to do it in modern society doesn't make it right.
And while I know it's easy to say all this when I "pass" pretty well But I went through a lot to get to this point in my life and I'm willing to face the rest of my life as a woman the good and the bad just like every woman on this planet has to do.    

Quote from: Heather on December 05, 2013, 10:20:58 AM
I think some of what I said was misinterpreted the point I was trying to make was basing your whole transition off looks is not wise. +

And while I know it's easy to say all this when I "pass" pretty well But I went through a lot to get to this point in my life and I'm willing to face the rest of my life as a woman the good and the bad just like every woman on this planet has to do.    

Heather,
I don't think a single person here said they had based their whole transition on looks, what a lot of people said, including myself, is that they based their transition on their ability to be perceived by themselves and by others as a woman, in simpler terms, on their passability. Of course looks come into that since the first thing most people notice is your physical appearance but that's as far is it goes. If you are pretty, attractive etc..that is of course a bonus just like for any other woman.

While I hate getting into arguments on forums, in this particular case I will argue that trying to transition when you clearly do not pass and/or are not in a very well protected job is probably even less wise, in any case for those who still have to earn a living and survive in the big bad world. You are almost certainly setting yourself up for a huge amount of pain and unless you are just a little masochistic or even suicidal, I really don't see how it can be worth it.

As you had the honesty to say, you are expressing the views of a person who passes "pretty well" but, without a lot of effort, surgery etc.. many of us did not or do not.  It was very much my case and I can see a huge difference in the way I am perceived now that I actually do pass pretty well. From the day people started to spontaneously call me Madame it has been a very self reinforcing processing, each Madame adding to my confidence and belief that I could live succesfully as a woman. Without that passability this process would almost certainly never have started and I would have made life a misery both for myself and for those who share my life: wife, children etc...

If there are people who have no need for others and/or believe that it is up to others to recognize us as women no matter what everything about our appearance and presentation is saying , so be it, I admire their courage. However I sure as hell understand those for whom that is too big a challenge.
Warm regards
Donna

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 09:49:18 AM
this talk  about being an old and ugly transgender is interesting.  I'm  just wondering as all the people who transition in their teens and early 20's get into their 50's and 60's and beyond going to start to change back to their birth mode because they don't like the way they look at an older age.  I guess if being transgender is about sex orgies and wild parties and extreme kinkiness I guess you shouldn't transgender past 30 or god forbid if you don't pass.

I'd like to clarify something.   My unhappiness with aging has little to do with my transition or my identity.  No one likes to age, but that doesn't mean I will revert and become something I'm not when I do.  Nor is transitioning about kinky sex parties for us.  Passing is important to some here. It's not the be all or end all, as I believe I'd go through with this regardless of my appearance,  but it is something important to me and others.  It's about being accepted socially for what you have always seen yourself as.  We will all have different opinions,  but i don't think it's fair to paint those of us who care about passing as purely vain.  There is a lot more to it than that

believe me  I'm so truly sorry. Its my fault. I've struggled with this since I was 4 , I still don't know if I would of transition earlier If I could of seen more clearly. I did do a lot of things when I was in my twenties and 30's . The sex  and the drugs and prostitution.    I am truly sorry if I hurt any one by those things  I said. I guess because I waited so long to realize I am transgender I got upset about all this talk Of the age thing. I'm so very sorry.                               

This thread may have gone a different route hehe.. but in response to the original post;

I often fear that after i start transition that I will look terrible and that I'll never be perceived as female because of it and it could possibly destroy me in the end.. But honestly, with the dysphoria literally tormenting me as it does, what i crave on the same level as looking female, is for my brain to shut up already and to finally feel like its in the right place. After having spoken to people who have been in transition for a 1-10 years, the most appealing result of transition (to me at least) is knowing that the confusion will subside. However, the fear of not appearing female because of my tall or broad figure still haunts me, but I guess it helps to imagine that I'll just be "statuesque", and thats ok too. While I yearn to appear as I feel, the uncertain possibility that these thoughts could very well subside as i continue my transition are definitely worth the risk for me.

if that's your picture you'll be more than all right

Quote from: evecrook on December 05, 2013, 02:15:13 PM
if that's your picture you'll be more than all right If its not your picture I mean no harm. Not that looks matter when your dealing with dysphria, I hope I'm not putting my self in a bad light again

Quote from: Donna E on December 05, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
Heather,
I don't think a single person here said they had based their whole transition on looks, what a lot of people said, including myself, is that they based their transition on their ability to be perceived by themselves and by others as a woman, in simpler terms, on their passability. Of course looks come into that since the first thing most people notice is your physical appearance but that's as far is it goes. If you are pretty, attractive etc..that is of course a bonus just like for any other woman.

While I hate getting into arguments on forums, in this particular case I will argue that trying to transition when you clearly do not pass and/or are not in a very well protected job is probably even less wise, in any case for those who still have to earn a living and survive in the big bad world. You are almost certainly setting yourself up for a huge amount of pain and unless you are just a little masochistic or even suicidal, I really don't see how it can be worth it.

As you had the honesty to say, you are expressing the views of a person who passes "pretty well" but, without a lot of effort, surgery etc.. many of us did not or do not.  It was very much my case and I can see a huge difference in the way I am perceived now that I actually do pass pretty well. From the day people started to spontaneously call me Madame it has been a very self reinforcing processing, each Madame adding to my confidence and belief that I could live succesfully as a woman. Without that passability this process would almost certainly never have started and I would have made life a misery both for myself and for those who share my life: wife, children etc...

If there are people who have no need for others and/or believe that it is up to others to recognize us as women no matter what everything about our appearance and presentation is saying , so be it, I admire their courage. However I sure as hell understand those for whom that is too big a challenge.
Warm regards
Donna

Donna it's not arguing to have a different opinion than me. You are stating your opinion in a reasonable way which is the opposite of arguing. Btw I do know what it feels like not to pass I was out presenting myself in public long before I started looking the way I do now which isn't exactly attractive but it's a long way from where I started. So I can relate to the feeling of not passing but I can also relate to knowing how it feels to be treated like an unattractive woman which isn't fun either but it beats being treated like a man.

I see the responses are all over the place.
I'm heading down the road and up ahead I see the TRANSITION zone. It's scary. It's also exciting on a good way. There are so many things to think about, like if I don't pass maybe I can make a living in the background. I think it would be difficult to not pass and have to present yourself to the public as a sales person or some highly visible position. The opposite would be a stay at home job working on the computer. So those job conditions can be a big piece of the puzzle. As others have said, there are ways to be feminine without completely transitioning. You can stay in the closet and keep a low profile. CandiFLA recommends taking steps before transitioning. Practice speaking like a woman. I don't sound too convincing yet, but I'm determined to get there. I think you can too. If I can learn all about makeup, fashion, and maybe get breast augmentation, these things might add up to passability. That's a pretty big question, isn't it?

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 04:16:48 PMYou can stay in the closet and keep a low profile. CandiFLA recommends taking steps before transitioning.

Geez - how long can you actually stay living that way? I could not keep that closet up for even half a year after I knew what was going on with me and dropped that male facade becaus eI could not keep it up again, things just wenn all over the place from that on, I could not have somehow squeezed back into a close then... but if you can do that, it totally makes sense to do some of the work before - voice training, electrolysis...

Quote from: anjaq on December 05, 2013, 04:33:42 PM
Geez - how long can you actually stay living that way? I could not keep that closet up for even half a year after I knew what was going on with me and dropped that male facade becaus eI could not keep it up again, things just wenn all over the place from that on, I could not have somehow squeezed back into a close then... but if you can do that, it totally makes sense to do some of the work before - voice training, electrolysis...

I'm with you! I'm doing an absolutely terrible job being in the closet! It's been 4 months... HRT starts soon... and I think people at work are seriously suspecting that something's going on.

How long can I live that way? A long time so far. For me I am not working at having a manly persona. Instead I am just being me. I'm androgynous. It's easy and not a facade. I'm not working at it. Shifting from androgynous to feminine is a much smaller step than going from GI Joe to Barbie. When you say 'living that way' it is not a very uncomfortable place. It's just not as comfy as a warm feminine persona which is more in harmony with my interior.

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 04:48:02 PM
How long can I live that way? A long time so far. For me I am not working at having a manly persona. Instead I am just being me. I'm androgynous. It's easy and not a facade. I'm not working at it. Shifting from androgynous to feminine is a much smaller step than going from GI Joe to Barbie. When you say 'living that way' it is not a very uncomfortable place. It's just not as comfy as a warm feminine persona which is more in harmony with my interior.

It's where I am too... at work and with most friends.
And I still hate it... but I do realize it's necessary. Their perceptions of me are changing and many of them don't like it... but work people are forced to accept it and still respect my work.

But no... I will never like being half way like this. It's better than being not me, but I hate half measures.

"always"     I seriously doubt any of us are so smart about knowing our futures that we can predict, with confidence, that we will or won't pass at any percentage after or during transition.  Are you sure you pass because someone calls you miss, mister, she or he?  How do you know they do not perceive you as transgender but simply respect how we are presenting?  I know plenty of ciswomen who could not fit our picture book "do I pass?" album.  If we really look at women we will see a wonderfully diverse population with a nearly infinite spectrum of looks and styles.
Some of the most fascinating and attractive women I have ever met carry their beauty within their character.  They do not need a great dress or make up to make a difference, be lovable or create meaningful relationships.  Life based on looks is sexist stereotyping!  There is unlimited potential for us to transition, be ourselves and live a successful life.  No one is born a man or a woman.  As we mature we may become one or the other or, goodness, someone in between.  Transitioning is not an exact science.  Why is not having certain answers threatening to some of us? 

What most troubles me most about this thread are the references to fear based thinking.  Fear of age, ugliness or loss.  Fear and the resultant toxicity of ignorance kept me from transitioning decades ago.  My real identity never went away but shadowed me till affirmed.  I now encourage people who are considering transition to look within their own hearts and minds vs a glamour catalog for the answers.  If our confidence to transition is based on our looks or passability then goodness knows how often a bad hair day or critical look might dump us into despair.  When I feel like a girl or woman I own it and no one can take it a away.  No one, including me, ever made me feel like a man.  It is more than enough to feel love as my most genuine self.  Pure indulgence!

Yes, we might lose a job, a friend or any number of relationships or things.  We might also gain insights, real happiness and more success than we could possibly imagine.  Being true to myself is definitely worth it.  Let the truly clairvoyant opine away about the future they can see so clearly for others.....  ;-)

The future is so bright I have to wear pink shades. Yes, it's an art to stay positive while realizing our future is a little vague and difficult to control. With the right attitude we can move forward and leave our fears behind. It might be best to Let Go and that's not easy. Anything worthwhile is usually a challenge and a lot of work...

Quote from: Gina_Z on December 05, 2013, 06:22:00 PM
The future is so bright I have to wear pink shades. Yes, it's an art to stay positive while realizing our future is a little vague and difficult to control. With the right attitude we can move forward and leave our fears behind. It might be best to Let Go and that's not easy. Anything worthwhile is usually a challenge and a lot of work...

LOL thanks Gina!  Art does save lives and I too keep my pink shades on daily--easier than make up