Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

How many of you never step out in the streets just cos ur not passable & bullied

Started by Evolving Beauty, December 05, 2013, 07:58:41 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Joan

Reading through this thread has initiated a minor crisis of confidence for me :o

I don't pass. I'm still learning to cover up my beard shadow.

I'm lucky too in that I haven't really been bullied for this.

I've been out to eat twice and while no one gave me funny looks or openly laughed at me, I have a feeling they knew I was not CIS female.  Where I love people are very polite and there's little chance of violence on the streets, so I'm lucky there again.

I was ok with funny looks because I know that HRT and laser will eventually make my face less obviously masculine.

That was until I read through this thread :D

Then I got a grip. If I can deal with it looking like I am now then I can certainly deal with it further down the line when I appear more in line with my mental gender.

This is the time when I grow a slightly thicker skin :)

Only a dark cocoon before I get my gorgeous wings and fly away
Only a phase, these dark cafe days
  •  

smile_jma

Quote from: Isabelle on December 06, 2013, 01:11:55 AM
This isnt meant to sound harsh but, transitioning socially is hard.

I consider myself incredibly lucky because I've never once been the subject of any bullying, no one has ever called anything transphobic out to me, I've never been stared at. However, and its a big however, I transitioned very slowly because I knew, I couldn't take the stress of being abused..
I took hormones and presented as male, I did this until people assumed I was female regardless of what I did. I then, very slowly began to alter my dress sense. I didn't just throw a dress on a skip down the streets...
I'm not saying people shouldn't just dress how they want whenever they want, and I'm not excusing the horrid behaviour of disgusting people who abuse others. What I am saying is, If you're struggling to cope with the fact that you don't pass, maybe just continue with hrt and slowly present as more androgynous.

I'm kind of in the same situation as you, except now every time I open my mouth, people get shocked, or something. (Long hair and a little more fat on the face does a lot. Even with a visible adams.) Something that makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable about having to meet new people and ordering food at a restaurant. This is all no makeup, wearing guy clothes. But that doesn't stop me. We all need friends (whether or not they know NOW) and I have to eat. Apparently not too healthy of food, though, since *most* healthy food isn't something you order, it's something you make yourself ;) I haven't yet (in the last 4 months) met someone who said they knew I was a guy from first glance. They ALL said something like, Oh, I thought you were a girl. *Intermal smile*

Anyway, I have no choice but to go out. I live 40 mins walking distance from my work, so I can either walk or take the bus, both of which I will be in the vicinity of many people of all ages. My doctor is 1.5 hours away by subway, so, can't avoid the public there either. Weekends, I will not stay inside. I just can't. 

Having said all that, I do try to time my bathroom occurrences to match when I might have to go to being home/in a privat-er bathroom (at a small restaurant).
  •  

Isabelle

QuoteI'm kind of in the same situation as you, except now every time I open my mouth, people get shocked,

Yeah, I remember those looks.. That's when I knew I needed to master my voice. I haven't presented as male in 2 years or so now and pass as cis. ( I'm sure I get clocked occasionally though)
  •  

Evolving Beauty

Quote from: Janae on December 06, 2013, 02:10:13 AM
I know exactly what you mean.

I've always wondered why more girls don't just wait it out on hrt and save money for surgeries before diving feet first into full time. Some people sadly don't naturally pass before hrt & surge. To me it all goes back to planing and being 100% honest with yourself before just putting yourself out there with the wolves. We all know what we look like and that should always be taken into account beforehand. I know many girls who waited till things were further enough along before going full time. I think it's better to ease into things gradually. Getting clocked is the lest of any girls worries if you ask me. I tend to look at things from a safety point. It's just not safe to jump out there prematurely.

It may not be fun waiting but nothing worth having/doing is ever easy. Why set yourself up for what could be easily avoided?

You are very right on one sense but be aware many of us begin transition VERY late and some like me were never sure whether we'd even have the money for surgeries. And we can't wait indefinitely, youth is something that doesn't last forever. Dysphoria was and is still VERY high. I couldn't bare living a single day more as a guy. I said f*** it even if I'm unpassable but I need to wear a female dress, make up and high heels or I'd get sick mentally. But there's a big price to pay and I am paying it right now.
  •  

Andrea_LS

This one's a tricky topic for me. I really only go out to buy groceries, and I have severe enough general and social anxiety to no be able to work and I have to live on help from disability. That part of things feels crappy, but I don't plan on being so cut off from the outside world forever. That said though, for me... I've gone out a few times more feminine looking than others. I have cute earrings I got as a coming-out symbol and honestly I always wear them, everywhere. (I do need more earrings though, lol.)

Right now my strong dislike of attention, in a general way from being very introverted and shy as just a person, is a bit jumbled into my worries when I go out with, say, makeup on. I try to not separate the issues and just think of it as people liking me as a person or not, and actually, so far anyway, the more comfortable and confident I am, the less trouble I have. One thing that helped me go clothes shopping was thinking to myself, "Acting all nervous and scared is what's the most suspicious. I should act like I belong where I'm at, just doing what I want like everyone else." For me it worked, and there I was, shopping for clothes at a huge store, with nobody giving a care, just like me. I overheard a woman telling a sales rep that she was worried about a "creepy man in the women's section" and they weren't talking about me, and that made me smile.

Isabelle's got a great point. I'm taking that route - I went from the guy look (and doing a poor job I might add), to androgynous, to androgynous with some femininity, where I'm at now. Funny thing is that I've only seen people smile at me more and talk to me more, the more I ease into it. I'm a tomboy and I like to wear things like t-shirts and jeans and what not, so I'm not out in dresses (no offense to anyone, it's just my own style :) ). I really like just easing in to my outward presentation changes, and little by little, I get more comfortable with myself.
  •  

Eva Marie

Quote from: Evolving Beauty on December 06, 2013, 06:24:57 AM
You are very right on one sense but be aware many of us begin transition VERY late and some like me were never sure whether we'd even have the money for surgeries. And we can't wait indefinitely, youth is something that doesn't last forever.

This resonated with me as a 51 year old person that got hit with the transsexual stick late in life. Estrogen has given me a more youthful look but I know that will fade, so I'm moving forward as fast as I can to capture living as I should have been doing with the time I have left. I don't want to waste a single moment with indecision or dithering, my clock is ticking. If I pass, I pass. If I don't - well, I'm still living as the authentic me.

Sure, there are some surgeries that I'd like to have to fix a few age related things, but money is an issue. I've got two kids in college that I'm supporting and I've got lots of bills to pay, so I'll most likely not be able to ever have surgery. That's OK too, there are lots of wrinkly ladies around that are my age  :)

And paying the price? Yep, there sure was a huge price for me to pay. Was it worth it? I believe so.
  •  

Alainaluvsu

As with many things in life, you have to weigh what's more important to you. In cases like these, it's either your pride or your happiness.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



  •  

evecrook

 I'm a little luckier , The worst any body ever said to me was that they couldn't tell if I was boy or girl as I passed by them. As long as your make up on properly and maybe long bangs people really aren't going to bother you. I forced my self out into the street a long time ago because I had to do it or go crazy. Most people just don't care. If you go out in day light where a lot of people are nobody's going to bother you. sun glasses help too.
  •  

Joanna Dark

I'm actually thinking of toning it down  a lot. I don't think people like me as much anymore or are scared or hestitant or something. Maybe I'm just a bitch. But I think I'm going to tone it down a lot, as in no female clothes. I've never been laughed at. Only been clocked once. I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth it.
  •  

evecrook

Quote from: Joanna Dark on December 06, 2013, 04:09:01 PM
I'm actually thinking of toning it down  a lot. I don't think people like me as much anymore or are scared or hestitant or something. Maybe I'm just a bitch. But I think I'm going to tone it down a lot, as in no female clothes. I've never been laughed at. Only been clocked once. I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth it.
Your picture looks great though
  •  

Isabelle

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on December 06, 2013, 10:50:48 AM
As with many things in life, you have to weigh what's more important to you. In cases like these, it's either your pride or your happiness.

Yup. The thing is, no matter how well you pass as cis, there are always going to be people who know, family, friends etc.. they will out you. It sucks but it happens. The only way you'll ever be comfortable in your self is when you truly don't care about what other peope think. It's one thing to say it but, another to not give an actual f@$k about other peoples opinions. It takes time and confidence.
  •  

Alainaluvsu

Quote from: Isabelle on December 06, 2013, 04:56:56 PM
Yup. The thing is, no matter how well you pass as cis, there are always going to be people who know, family, friends etc.. they will out you. It sucks but it happens. The only way you'll ever be comfortable in your self is when you truly don't care about what other peope think. It's one thing to say it but, another to not give an actual f@$k about other peoples opinions. It takes time and confidence.

That's so true. Which is why I kinda chuckle when people say "I'm 100% stealth". Short of transitioning at 5 and all of your family not being in contact with you whatsoever, you're not stealth.
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



  •  

musicofthenight

Quote from: Sybil on December 05, 2013, 10:36:23 PM
candy bar checkpoint

I love this phrase enough to steal it.

But, it's true isn't it?  The price of a female presentation is the social obligation to be eye-candy for whoever wants it.  They don't like it, it becomes your problem.

And, for the love of all things cute and fluffy, don't ever be guilty of appearing pretty whilst presumably packing a penis.  Apparently this is one of the worst things a human being is capable of.

My opinion cannot be expressed in polite language, so I'll google up and link an image macro.

Oh, but it's everywhere: whoever put that together just had to use a Rosie character.
What do you care what other people think? ~Arlene Feynman
trans-tom / androgyne / changes profile just for fun


he... -or- she... -or (hard mode)- yo/em/er/ers
  •  

Just Shelly

Quote from: Isabelle on December 06, 2013, 01:11:55 AM
This isnt meant to sound harsh but, transitioning socially is hard.

I consider myself incredibly lucky because I've never once been the subject of any bullying, no one has ever called anything transphobic out to me, I've never been stared at. However, and its a big however, I transitioned very slowly because I knew, I couldn't take the stress of being abused..
I took hormones and presented as male, I did this until people assumed I was female regardless of what I did. I then, very slowly began to alter my dress sense. I didn't just throw a dress on a skip down the streets...
I'm not saying people shouldn't just dress how they want whenever they want, and I'm not excusing the horrid behaviour of disgusting people who abuse others. What I am saying is, If you're struggling to cope with the fact that you don't pass, maybe just continue with hrt and slowly present as more androgynous.

This is exactly what I did....in fact I was having the opposite thing happening. I was being gendered female at least 70% of the time over a year before I went FT. I can only say 70% but it could of been even higher....there are many times that there is no reason to be gendered. Most times when I did find out it was very awkward times that I did not know I was being gendered female...I was like....oh crap I better make sure I act like a female now! I could tell some really interesting stories of my mis-genderings!

Many times I hear someone say that when they are out they try to dress androgynously...but when they explain what there wearing, I can understand why they may be getting weird looks. If someone is trying to dress andro.....wearing earrings, nail polish and carrying a purse will not help. These three things alone are probably the most feminine thing a women could do!

I may have been fortunate to fall within the female ranges for my physical traits....but I don't think it was just this. I feel the main reason is that I never pushed my femininity....even when going FT it was very strange to actual have it seen that I did have breasts!

I do remember getting mis-gendered and having some remarks said to me.....this was over 20 years ago when I crossed dressed and weighed considerably more. It wasn't just my size though...it was what I was wearing and how I acted. I remember going to Walmart one time with a very nice woven dress (it was winter at least) and as I walked in a mother grabbed her son or daughter away from me and said "that's a man" This is the only time I have ever had that said. Even during this same time in my life there were times I would be shopping side by side with young teens without getting a even a glance. I learned very much from my cross dressing days....even though I knew I it was much more then cross-dressing.

I can look back even further when I was 16...these were some of my first times out in public as "me" I still remember some of those times like it was yesterday. I passed pretty well back then...but I really didn't care at the time.
  •  

Alainaluvsu

Quote from: musicofthenight on December 06, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
The price of a female presentation is the social obligation to be eye-candy for whoever wants it.  They don't like it, it becomes your problem.

And, for the love of all things cute and fluffy, don't ever be guilty of appearing pretty whilst presumably packing a penis.  Apparently this is one of the worst things a human being is capable of.

I wouldn't go that far. I think it's more a matter of environment and blending that gets the "pass" of being pretty w/ a peener. In more acceptable cities, people don't care. Also, I think the overall presentation will carry your weight for you and make you a bit more "safe" when dealing with men and their snide BS. It's only the very ignorant gutter trash that have horrible lives themselves who make fun of me and they don't have the nerve to do it to my face when they do. I have to hear about it second or third hand (like some homophobic wanna be thug twerp who unfriends me on Facebook and talks about me in other peoples threads).

Why would you do that? I'm 5'3" and fairly petite (size 5-6). It's not like I can beat your ass! Maybe it's because most people would say you're an idiot in the public sphere. If so, then it goes to help prove the point that sometimes you can chalk it up to the overall presentation and how confident you carry yourself...

Just gonna leave that thought here... *pats the thought and sits down*
To dream of the person you would like to be is to waste the person you are.



  •  

Ltl89

In a way, I can relate to this.  While I'm out living my life, I'm still not going out as female in public.  Yes, things have improved from where I started and I already get some stares, but I haven't attempted to "pass" in public.  The main reason is I'm afraid about what other people will say.  It's pure fear.  At the same time, I feel like I'm shutting myself off from the world.  To be honest, I don't know how to live a life as male and it prevents me from being myself.  It's hard to socialize or relax around others when you are constantly afraid of how to act.  How can you have fun around others or relax if you aren't comfortable with yourself?  That's one of the reasons I don't really get out as much as I should.  Things are getting better and people have guessed what's going on at this point, but I haven't been able to take that step and be the real me in public.  It's scary.  Soon enough, though, I will.  I'm doing the right things and getting my life on track in general.  I'm finally in a good place where transition is possible both emotionally and financially speaking.  There is enough progress being made to make up for my current limitations.  All that's left is to keep going forward at a pace that is comfortable for me.   
  •  

Sybil

Quote from: musicofthenight on December 06, 2013, 09:33:46 PM
I love this phrase enough to steal it.

But, it's true isn't it?  The price of a female presentation is the social obligation to be eye-candy for whoever wants it.  They don't like it, it becomes your problem.

And, for the love of all things cute and fluffy, don't ever be guilty of appearing pretty whilst presumably packing a penis.  Apparently this is one of the worst things a human being is capable of.

My opinion cannot be expressed in polite language, so I'll google up and link an image macro.

Oh, but it's everywhere: whoever put that together just had to use a Rosie character.
This isn't exactly what I meant by candy bar checkpoint, although I really do appreciate that you pulled something else from it.

I used the candy bar as an analogy for something insignificant that you offer another person. They can either decide to take the candy bar or reject it. As a trans person who does not pass, this is often the behavior that we endure every time we interact with other people. Other people get to decide if they want to accept us as as our gender or not, which is not the norm for most human beings; there is no acceptance or denial involved for cis people. It degenerates a fundamental part of our being into something trivial that is easily dismissed by others, such as a candy bar -- hence, candy bar checkpoint.

You are more than welcome to use the phrase however you like, though! I think it can be adopted for multiple meanings.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
  •  

MadelineB

Every person has the right to restrict their own life, their own expressiveness, their own joy. To lock it down tight and put a lid on it. To hide their true selves from the world. To give in to fear, to anticipate others' thoughts and live a life ruled by fear of those expected thoughts (and the expected emotions they we think we would feel if someone thought those awful things about us).

However, every person also has a right to live their own life, to express themselves freely, to feel and live their own joy. To lift all restrictions (except those placed by law) and break out of all chains and locks. To overcome fear, to let other people (in all their ignorance or understanding, hatred or compassion) think their own thoughts without my caring what they think.

I can tell you, the majority of transgender people are NOT hiding away their whole lives. The reason you can't see them is because they have gone on with their lives (IN THEIR TRUE GENDER) and despite what you think you know about how transgender people look, they don't. The longer a person lives in their emotional and cognitive "skin" and is comfortable in their expressed gender and their lived gender and their internally experienced gender (which are three different things) the more you can't see them as anything but the woman or man or androgyne they are, despite any physical differences. Because there isn't any physical difference we have that isn't also shared by some of the general cis-sex population. Who you tend to notice are part timers (who aren't yet comfortable in their skin), or genderqueer (intentionally not making their gender presentation fit your expectations, 'cause that's not how they roll), or crossdressing (there is a different look to someone who, for example, feels entirely male yet likes to wear clothes that were 'made for women'). It's amazing how your feeling changes when you stop fearing being visible (those people are awesome too! get to know some! but don't remark or fixate on their gender or sex - that's lame) and start being yourself. Period. Just like they do. But don't be surprised if the more you live as yourself in the world, the more your gender spotlight dims and you just become another man or woman in the world, except for the rare person who is especially gender/sex perceptive and sensitive (like another trans person!).

Whether you are a woman with a penis, a man with a vagina, or some other variation of biology's magic rainbow, doesn't affect how you interact with other people unless you are in a venue where you need to show your genitals. Really. Tucking or packing take care of the occasional crotch gazer except in nude settings, if you are concerned about what crotch gazers think. Though I'd like to get to a world where people ONLY tuck or pack because it makes them feel better/expresses their body image/reduces dysphoria, not because it makes them safer in the world from abusive trolls.

Even in nude settings, having an other sex's or mixed sex body characteristics does not have to preclude your happiness and acceptance. You just learn to pick who you show and share your body (or viewing of your body) with. Just like everyone else must, but with a little more care because of transphobia / transmisogyny. Just make sure you are always being respected, valued, and cherished.
History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.
~Maya Angelou

Personal Blog: Madeline's B-Hive
  •  

Sybil

Quote from: MadelineB on December 07, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
It's amazing how your feeling changes when you stop fearing being visible (those people are awesome too! get to know some! but don't remark or fixate on their gender or sex - that's lame) and start being yourself. Period. Just like they do. But don't be surprised if the more you live as yourself in the world, the more your gender spotlight dims and you just become another man or woman in the world, except for the rare person who is especially gender/sex perceptive and sensitive (like another trans person!).
I think that a significant percentage of transgendered people have physical hurdles that "give them away," regardless of their mannerisms or their ability to blend in otherwise, and that readily noticing these features is not restricted to gender/sex sensitive people. Of course, these features aren't inherently a bad thing and shouldn't invalidate someone's gender, but people will be terrible and do use them to be judgmental or quietly question what is amiss anyway. I think that's the fear that many people have. Some people are comfortable with this fact and ignore the possibilities, while others are not comfortable and seek to remedy their "giveaways" before expressing themselves more fully.

I really do wish confidence and experience were enough to overcome transgender hinting for everyone, but I really do not think that is the case.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
  •  

MadelineB

Quote from: Sybil on December 07, 2013, 11:19:24 AM
I think that a significant percentage of transgendered people have physical hurdles that "give them away," regardless of their mannerisms or their ability to blend in otherwise, and that readily noticing these features is not restricted to gender/sex sensitive people. Of course, these features aren't inherently a bad thing and shouldn't invalidate someone's gender, but people will be terrible and do use them to be judgmental or quietly question what is amiss anyway. I think that's the fear that many people have. Some people are comfortable with this fact and ignore the possibilities, while others are not comfortable and seek to remedy their "giveaways" before expressing themselves more fully.

I really do wish confidence and experience were enough to overcome transgender hinting for everyone, but I really do not think that is the case.
Very true Sybil. I am fortunate to live in a part of the world where being a woman whose looks (physical or presentationally) are very masculine does not make one not be treated as a woman. Treating someone in a way that upsets them or makes them feel less welcome and accepted is NOT acceptable in Portland.

In Portland, Oregon, as long as the way you carry yourself and dress makes it clear you want to be treated as a woman, you will be treated as a woman. People have been around enough gender variance that they don't get their boxers or panties in knots when they meet a gender non-conforming person. They might guess wrong on pronouns but will usually correct themselves if you tell them how you like to be addressed.

The only bad thing about Portland is for our trans men who have feminine physical looks, because there are so many women here who are stone butch it can be difficult to get out of the lesbian category in other people's assumptions based on appearance.

If you live in a place where people are not used to differences, I agree that it is harder, and you will be doing more educating of people in how to treat you.

And I won't invalidate the experience of anyone who needs or wants to transform themselves. We do what we feel we need to do.

I'm just pointing out that a great many of transgender people, right on this site, who are afraid to go out as themselves, are already more passing than hundreds of thousands of us who have already gone full time and are doing just fine (but usually don't hang out on transgender support sites any more because our life issues are not gender-based any more).

No amount of physical changes can substitute for comfort and confidence, which for many of us require even lengthier processes (and treatments) to accomplish because we started out with no comfort and no confidence. People who chase comfort and confidence indirectly through changing or improving their appearance are very often disappointed. There are literally millions of  passable and often beautiful cis-women/handsome cis-men who are crippled by social anxiety, general anxiety, panic disorders, and poor self-image, and it has nothing to do with their gender issues or real appearance, but they are also afraid to go out and to be themselves. If we are anxious and uncomfortable, we can work on that, and it does get better. I know.

I truly can't tell you if I get "clocked" 100 times a day or none, it is rare when someone remarks about my difference but I'm not looking for it any more, not policing people's reactions or trying to guess their perceptions, and when someone does make it obvious they think they know my transgender background, I no longer assume they are malicious or even negative. "Cool, teaching opportunity!" is a better feeling than "OMG they think I'm a guy in a dress I just want to hide what do I do.". (NOTE: there is NOTHING wrong with being a guy in a dress, it's just not how to describe how I experience being me. Once I got over that thing, my own internalized transphobia and transmisogyny, I stopped being uncomfortable around crossdressing men, and I am no longer upset if someone in their ignorance mistakes me for a guy. There is nothing wrong with being a guy, I just am not one. If someone tries to insult me for that, I correct them twice - 1. it is not an insult, a man who is confident enough to wear feminine dress is a great thing to be and if they are so upset about it maybe they need to try it themselves, and 2. by the way, I am a woman, this is me all the time buddy so don't be so rude and try to shame people for being themselves.)
History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.
~Maya Angelou

Personal Blog: Madeline's B-Hive
  •