In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.

From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas.  I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me.  This is because don't think of "gender" the same way.  I don't understand the concept of gender at all.  I don't have a "gender."  I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body.  For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests.  I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me.  If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male.  I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.

Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes.  Doing stupid macho manly things is all fine and good, but my so-called masculinity is a matter of luck and has nothing to do with whether I am male or female.  I could be a masculine woman, if there wasn't a strong sense of "I am a person that is set up to have a penis and the body type that usually accompanies the presence of a penis and absence of a vagina and et cetera.")

So that's the whole "being male" part.  That I have no problem with.  I am fortunate and overjoyed that I'm rid of most of the unwanted, incongruent appendages which used to be on/in me.  Not all of them, but it's a matter of time.  After the final surgery, even after the surgeries I have had, I would never in a million years want to go back and I don't regret the physical part.

The social part, though?  Seriously sucks.  A lot of the time.  The part that's not about being male, but about being a man.  I think the entire set of categories is incredibly stupid.  Re-socialization is the hardest part, but I can't avoid it, because I do not have a choice.  Even though I disagree with it, I am male, so that means I have to at least learn to navigate the role of "a man" in society, even if I end up defying much of it.  Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did.  And I can't deny that anymore.  I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either.  I did try that.  It didn't work.  It just felt worse than either binary role, much of which was due to the amount of mental effort required on my part, and opening myself up for harassment on society's part--and I am already not a person who easily fits in to society in any way whatsoever. 

Does anyone talk about how much it can suck to be male socially, without resorting to dodges such as "well if you're not happy than you don't have to live as/identify as male"?  Is this why most trans men are even doing this, because they prefer the male social role and don't care as much about bodily configuration, that roles and presentation and pronouns are enough to offset the bodily concerns?

So if it's okay to be a man with a vagina, is it okay to be a person-with-a-penis who sees himself as male for that sole fact alone, and doesn't like being socially "a man" very much/doesn't understand social gender at all or have a social gender, but wants to learn to come to terms with the social standards that a person with his body type is typically held to?

I.e, the mentality of: "I don't have to like it, but I do have to learn how to deal with it--or how to deal with the consequences for breaking it."  I wish I could get resources for that which don't end up being either invalidating, inconclusive/vague or both.

Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.

From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas.  I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me.  This is because don't think of "gender" the same way.  I don't understand the concept of gender at all.  I don't have a "gender."  I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body.  For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests.  I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me.  If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male.  I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.

A lot of the time trans men don't want to continue living their life without a penis, but they have no other option, either because neither of the current surgical options appeal to them, there are medical reasons why they can't, or because they simply cannot afford to have the surgery.  This doesn't mean that they don't feel as if there should be a "penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there".  Personally, I don't know if I would never get any form of lower surgery, just because there are a lot of risks and I don't know if the results would satisfy me.  That doesn't mean that I don't want a penis, or that I don't have a phantom penis.  I'm aware of it right now.

I don't know how I can describe gender if you don't know what it is, but I feel it's closer to what you're describing than you think.  Or maybe I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, I don't know.  I see gender as different from physical sex because my physical sex tells me that I'm female, and those parts of my body which are female secondary sex characteristics are the parts which I loath.  The genitals =/= gender thing is a way of saying that someone's genitals cannot speak for what the gender of a person is, otherwise all pre-surgery trans people would by default be their birth sex, which isn't the case because they identify as, and feel like they should have the physicality of, the opposite sex to their birth sex.

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Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes.  Doing stupid macho manly things is all fine and good, but my so-called masculinity is a matter of luck and has nothing to do with whether I am male or female.  I could be a masculine woman, if there wasn't a strong sense of "I am a person that is set up to have a penis and the body type that usually accompanies the presence of a penis and absence of a vagina and et cetera.")

So that's the whole "being male" part.  That I have no problem with.  I am fortunate and overjoyed that I'm rid of most of the unwanted, incongruent appendages which used to be on/in me.  Not all of them, but it's a matter of time.  After the final surgery, even after the surgeries I have had, I would never in a million years want to go back and I don't regret the physical part.

That's pretty much what we're saying.  You don't have to act like a man to be a man, and you don't have to be a man to act like a man.  Having dysphoria and the innate sense that your body is incorrect is what makes you trans, not your behaviour.  Yes, behaviour often comes along with it, but I don't know how much of that is learned, and how much of that is innate.  Personally I think a lot of it is innate, but I know there are plenty of people who don't and it could just be another part of my having a strong personality and refusing to change for anyone or anything.

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The social part, though?  Seriously sucks.  A lot of the time.  The part that's not about being male, but about being a man.  I think the entire set of categories is incredibly stupid.  Re-socialization is the hardest part, but I can't avoid it, because I do not have a choice.  Even though I disagree with it, I am male, so that means I have to at least learn to navigate the role of "a man" in society, even if I end up defying much of it.  Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did.  And I can't deny that anymore.  I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either.  I did try that.  It didn't work.  It just felt worse than either binary role, much of which was due to the amount of mental effort required on my part, and opening myself up for harassment on society's part--and I am already not a person who easily fits in to society in any way whatsoever. 

I don't know what your problem is with male socialisation, or being "a man".  I never really had to learn to be a man in society, I just am, to the point where people who know me by my birthname and soley as a female subconsciously treat me as just another man.  They don't know they're doing it, if they did there would be trouble, but they just do.  I've had people jokingly say "yes sir" instead of "yes ma'am", my own transphobic grandfather treats me like a grandson and calls me "mate", one of my friends admitted she guessed from my mannerisms that I was male even though she knows I'm physically not.  I don't know how to learn to socialise as a gender, because I just socialise as myself, and that happens to be male.

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Does anyone talk about how much it can suck to be male socially, without resorting to dodges such as "well if you're not happy than you don't have to live as/identify as male"?  Is this why most trans men are even doing this, because they prefer the male social role and don't care as much about bodily configuration, that roles and presentation and pronouns are enough to offset the bodily concerns?

I find this slightly offensive in some way, but I can't put my finger on what it is.  Again, I don't know what parts of male socialisation you don't like, it could be anything from women mistrusting you when you're walking down the road at 2am, or it could be the lack of touchy-feely hugs, I don't know.  I do know that from what I've heard from other people, and personally, I'm not planning on transitioning just for the social stuff.  The social stuff doesn't make me cry in the shower if I've got to have one with the lights on, or make me so angry I want to throw my entire body through brick wall because punching it wouldn't do enough.  The social stuff, getting misgendered etc, just hurts because it's a kick in the face reminding me of what I don't have, and what I'm lumbered with physically.  Maybe other's are different, but that's me.

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So if it's okay to be a man with a vagina, is it okay to be a person-with-a-penis who sees himself as male for that sole fact alone, and doesn't like being socially "a man" very much/doesn't understand social gender at all or have a social gender, but wants to learn to come to terms with the social standards that a person with his body type is typically held to?

I.e, the mentality of: "I don't have to like it, but I do have to learn how to deal with it--or how to deal with the consequences for breaking it."  I wish I could get resources for that which don't end up being either invalidating, inconclusive/vague or both.

There are plenty of people who can't get the grasp of social skills.  It doesn't mean that they are being seen as the wrong gender.  I think as long as you're comfortable with your body, or aiming towards being comfortable in your own body then you're doing the right thing for yourself, and f what everyone else says.

Not sure If I can explain gender if your not sure what it is.

sex is based on body part, biology, production and so on, while gender is more of a culture based word on what we consider men and women for ourself or socially around us.
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Speaking of being male in sociaty I kinda understand. theres many thing in male sociaty I dont like, ex how many guys cant show love to each other without it consider gay.
I think theres a time for everyone where you have to figure if you want to take up the fight or not,
Yes it most easy just to fit in but it also kinda sucks not being true to yourself and I dont feel it makes you neither grether nor more happy, so I feel if theres part you really hate then you should cut ties with these or at least give it a efford
it may not  make you the typical man but so what.

I think all guys have this in someway, femenine guys who try being masculine for the sociaty, or what if you are an forregian who moves to another country, how much should you adapt and how much can you hold on too.

I belive those part which you really feel agenst or which you really love are the part who are important, Ex, just because im a guy dosent mean I want to join conversation on how bad women are. but its something you have to figure out yourself.

I have strechmarks on my hips, legs and cheast, but I never heard a guy comment on it.
Sure depends how bad they are but mine fade over time so I dont think people would notice so much and even if they do I just say its caused by swelling/gaining weight or something.

I feel male because I feel male... It's kind of hard to explain for me, I just feel deep down that I'm male and I feel better when presenting physically that way and when I'm adressed as such. That said I don't fit the stereotypical 'MAN'box some people feel I should however I don't feel the need to socialize that way either, plenty of guys don't fit that mold completely.
You don't have to be genderqueer to not fit in that box or have that set of characteristics. I'm just me, and I'm a guy even if others sometimes feel I don't act like one. Because most people automatically treat me as a guy anyway and there really aren't many things that are solely manbehavior or solely womanbehavior.
I don't really worry about if how I act is 'man' enough, I want to be seen as a guy because that's what I feel I am and I want my body to reflect what I feel on the inside. But I'm not going to change WHO I am, I see it as changing the packaging not the inside.

Xren, I totally get where you're coming from (but from the other side, of course). There's a lot about the social expectations of being female that I'm not crash hot on, I have no intention of being a girly girl. Likewise, in my male persona I avoid what I consider to be machismo and a lot of other male behaviours - I'd much rather be a human being instead of someone defined by a gender expectation. That said, I still feel the overwhelming need to be in a female body and be accepted as one.

Maybe it helps that I don't consider myself entirely binary, but I don't get into very many social expectations for being male. I'm who I am. If people don't like me how I am, well it's their problem I guess. But I've never had anybody question it either.
Once they see me as a male, they don't seem to care. I think there is a wider sphere of what is "male behavior" than people think actually, or there must be.


--Jay

Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
Being "a man" sucks about as much as being "a woman" did.  And I can't deny that anymore.  I'm not happy trying to live as genderqueer, either. 

God...I hate labels...
I'm by far no expert on this gender thing, but it looks like you're running out of categories to fit into.  SO...how about just being 'YOU' ? and don't worry about what anyone thinks. 
I'm a woman with a penis and yes, some parts of that suck for now, but it's temporary - not permanent.  So with that being said, the 'suck factor' will be there at some level for all of us.    Nothing lasts forever.

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 25, 2013, 11:10:51 AM
I have no intention of being a girly girl.

Says the girl who's wearing dresses in all her recent photos and her current avatar. 
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side.  I'd love to look as good as you.  I'd wear a dress 24/7.   

I get some of what you said. I definitely understand the issue of the mental map vs. gender roles and whatnot. That is basically how I've felt about my transition - I see it purely as a physical change, to make the way I feel my body should be align up to what it is. It has nothing to do with social roles or personality or anything like that. I don't understand the concept of "identity" period, gender or otherwise.

But being a man in society isn't weird to me. In some respects I don't fit gender roles, and in others I do - it was the same as female and I accept that. The first time someone I worked with closely saw me a cisgender man, I knew transition was the right decision for me. I felt 100% accepted - not just as the type of man I am, but as a man, period. As female, I definitely felt accepted for my personality - most people really liked me, and I was able to "be myself" but something was missing. That something was someone recognizing that I was male.

Is it possible that you feel uncomfortable with people putting you in a box, period? Like, when they see "man" socially, you feel like it comes with a set of expected obligations and assumptions? I used to feel this way, I hated people making assumptions about me, but then I realized it wasn't really that big of a deal. Because if they knew me as a person, they'd realize what type of person I was, and then they'd have the decision to accept or reject that person. And I feel like if they apply assumptions and expectations on to me, it's not just me - they apply those to themselves, EVERY DAY and they are the person who will have to live by their own standards and beliefs. Whereas, they can assume whatever they want about me (for whatever reason, gender or otherwise) but at the end of the day, I go home and I am my own man.

Powerful post with some good enlightening answers

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 25, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side.  I'd love to look as good as you.  I'd wear a dress 24/7.   

aw, shucks. 

I remember your reply to the other thread that was dragged from the abyss. Regardless of how you feel about yourself it's not ok to project your insecurities about manhood or what being male is on others. I'm not downing you, people project their insecurities on others all the time, it's how people validate their opinions of themselves.

To me being a man in society is far more important than having another appendage. How many people will see your penis one day? It's not what makes you male in society. It's not what makes someone a man. It's a reproductive organ. While I could see myself with a penis in the future I really don't get penis envy or worship. 

To everyone who responded, I've done some thinking.  The trouble I'm having is that I don't get nonverbal communication very well at all.  For instance, gestures, movement, just the little things and social cues are not something that comes naturally to me.  Male body language, for instance, bothers me because it's body language and all body language seems goofy and awkward to perform regardless of the gender ascribed to it--I'm a good mimic and I can, but it's tiring--and everyone in society seems to ascribe such importance to it and I don't.  Being socially anything, anything with a strong behavioral/body language component, is weird to me.  So I have a rigid, extremely literal view of a lot of things in the world to compensate for my constant confusion.

The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.

Quote from: Xren on December 25, 2013, 05:44:24 PM
The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.

You could apologize on the thread you trolled then or at the very least you could have explained why you felt the way you did in your post on there rather than making a new thread with some elaborate excuse.

If you have trouble reading and understanding social cues and body language then you may want to see a psychologist and talk to them about the possibility of having some form of autism if you haven't already. And I'm serious about that. I have a friend with Asperger Syndrome and she can't read body language or social cues so she takes everything very literally. She works with a therapist who teachers her how to recognize some cues that she would normally miss so social interactions aren't as stressful for her anymore.

Yeah, sounds like Asperger's to me. I have Asperger's too, and it can be hard to read social cues, but that's not an excuse to be a jerk. Nobody likes being treated badly; you don't have to guess in that case. All of us get in a funk sometimes, but that's when it's time to apologize. I really think you owe the OP of the original thread an apology.

Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas.  I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me. 

I'm just curious ... so do you actually still consider yourself female since you don't have all the surgeries yet? And if so, do you consider what you're doing up to the time that you get the final surgery, an "act" in a way?

Further in your post you talk about being a mimic of mannerisms, etc. But that is an act as well, technically. You're not really being yourself when you're trying to copy what other people are doing.

From my observations just on this board, it seems a lot of male trans people go one of two ways ... either they're like myself and they just are the way they are and that just happens to be "male" on the mannerisms, how you carry yourself in society, etc. or you were heavily influenced (and confused) by your original socialization as "female" and have a hard time navigating as male in society because of that. You mention that, in addition, you can't figure out body language, so for you personally that's also going to come into play.

I've noticed in some of your other posts you mention how well you pass. So you don't seem to have the problem of people not taking you as male by appearance alone. Honestly it does sound more like an issue with just the way you're thinking about stuff. Sure there's those stereotypical male mannerisms and "ways to be a man", but not even all the cis males out there fit into those boxes. And i've talked to plenty who also put on an "act" when it comes to certain things (I know a hell of a lot of men who fake liking sports because they think other men will give them sh*t about not liking sports, for instance). I guess it's human nature to just want to feel accepted by "the group" – whatever that group may be. But what it really comes down to, is your own happiness and comfort level. Are you happy/comfortable putting on an act? Yes? Good, do it. No? Bad, don't do it.

And there's so many various ways to "be a man" but you have to be your own man.

Circling back to the penis thing. I get what you're saying. I'm not transitioning, but I don't consider myself female either. However, I know that I will never have the perfect looking, fully functional penis that my mind thinks I have already. That's just how my brain is set up though. Maybe it's like those guys who have an unfortunate accident and lose all/part of their penis? All I know is that I didn't come into this world with a fully female brain. And I've had to deal with the reality of missing or added parts in my own way. I tried other people's ways of dealing with it, and it didn't work. But I'm certainly not going to compromise on who I am with myself (and some very close friends), and I'm done with trying to act some sort of role out for society. If people want to refer to me as a "masculine woman", whatever. They're wrong, of course, although they may never know that, but I do and that's what matters most to me.

I've been told (by so-called "professionals" no less) that I can't possible be male because I'm not even willing to do "treatment" (transition). For a long time that stayed with me and made my resentment of my physical body (and half of society) even worse. It wasn't until I had sorted some things out on my own and basically just had a, screw it, I'm just going to be myself regardless, moment, that things started looking up for me in that area. I think you need to sort through some things yourself and also realize that projecting your own opinions on others and/or holding them up to your definitions doesn't really help you at all. 

Quote from: JordanBlue on December 25, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
Says the girl who's wearing dresses in all her recent photos and her current avatar. 
C'mon Grace...all transwomen all have a 'girly girl' side.  I'd love to look as good as you.  I'd wear a dress 24/7.   

Well Grace is indeed adorable. Though I know transwomen who are biker chicks and so on. They don't fit into stereotypes more than we do, though I think the expectations are harder or something.

--Jay

Quote from: DCQ on December 25, 2013, 09:21:23 PM
Yeah, sounds like Asperger's to me. I have Asperger's too, and it can be hard to read social cues, but that's not an excuse to be a jerk. Nobody likes being treated badly; you don't have to guess in that case.

I don't think it's Asperger's, because I'm capable of reading the body language and implicit communications if I make an effort--hence the comment about ability to mimic--but I don't implicitly share the emotional attachment and amount of importance(?) most seem to ascribe to it.  Not an issue of knowing what or how, but why and why this?  Keeping track of non-verbal, gestural, meta-communication type things and formulating the proper response to being gestured and implicit-statemented and body-languaged at is strenuous.  Depersonalization/derealization describes it better, rather than a lack of ability it's a disconnect.  I might have Schizoid and/or Schizotypal PD.  I've been this way for most of my life, just didn't know how to explain it or that it would cause difficulties as an adult.

Five words in the wrong context were that incredibly hurtful.  I know, people have feelings that aren't mine and right to be upset.  The thread was the second result that showed up on a search engine, I didn't go digging for it.  I typed and posted five words and it was a big thing.  I wasn't even angry about anything, at anyone, and was barely aware that it would be Christmas in a few days.  I knew some might get mad, because a lot of people have very strong opinions on the subject, but I underestimated the degree to which the statement would be upsetting.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 25, 2013, 09:54:47 PM
I'm just curious ... so do you actually still consider yourself female since you don't have all the surgeries yet? And if so, do you consider what you're doing up to the time that you get the final surgery, an "act" in a way?

Technically yes, I consider myself female by default, in the situations where it would apply (i.e, being pantsless in front of other people, which I go out of my way to avoid so they don't see that I'm still female down there,) though less so than before the other surgeries.  I consider everything I do, everything I have done and everything I will do socially an "act" because reality and communication and gestures and any/every social role, gendered or not, feels like one.  Derealization/depersonalization and an inherent disconnect from the shared importance of certain stuff people around me have.  I wasn't implying that gendered mannerisms/presentation/performance/roles are "fake-unless," or less genuine than when cis people do them.  It all seems like a bunch of actors milling around on stage acting and being bizarre, no matter who's doing it or what variation of it they're doing.

QuoteFurther in your post you talk about being a mimic of mannerisms, etc. But that is an act as well, technically. You're not really being yourself when you're trying to copy what other people are doing.

From my observations just on this board, it seems a lot of male trans people go one of two ways ... either they're like myself and they just are the way they are and that just happens to be "male" on the mannerisms, how you carry yourself in society, etc. or you were heavily influenced (and confused) by your original socialization as "female" and have a hard time navigating as male in society because of that. You mention that, in addition, you can't figure out body language, so for you personally that's also going to come into play.

There wasn't any original socialization.  People must have tried, and I tried, but it didn't stick.  Trying to teach myself female mannerisms or pick them up from other people felt the same then as it does now--disjointed, disconnected, a struggle to maintain or even find any value in, beyond "not getting yelled at by people who expect you to do these things," and even that wasn't good enough after a while.  The only way I was able to deal with social situations and go from complete train wreck to...partial train wreck, was by inventing a character who was clearly, in my mind, a fictional character, and being that person.  Nobody seemed to notice, or react to me as though I was being less "real," so I came to the conclusion that it's what everyone did and I'd just figured it out.  It turns out I was wrong and people do have a genuine sense of an internal immutable thing that they are driving their actions, and that their actions are the logical outcomes/manifestations of the core self-ness they feel.  My sense of self is a conglomeration of patterns of preferences and tendencies that don't have anything to do with anyone or anything else, and exist arbitrarily to form this entity I perceive as "me" because...that's what fell from the primordial void, ask a trilobite why it's a trilobite and it wouldn't understand, it would keep trilobiting along.  These patterns also don't have any natural outward manifestation that is consistent from day to day, situation to situation.  There is no body language that instinctively emanates from, or instinctively expresses, these patterns-that-comprise-internal-me.  If I wanted one, I had to invent one.

If I set aside five minutes in which to demonstrate what it looked like when I was not doing anything that felt like acting or mimicry, those five minutes would be spent sitting in a catatonic daze staring at a wall and not moving.  Is that the "real me?"  If no actions come naturally to me, not even the simplest ones, does this mean I have no self and there is no real me? 

I don't think that's what you're implying, but if you are it's incorrect, there is clearly a "me" in there, but it doesn't seem to be made of, centered around, or reactive to, the same stuff as others' is, going on others' descriptions of identity--not just gender identity but identity, period.

QuoteI've noticed in some of your other posts you mention how well you pass. So you don't seem to have the problem of people not taking you as male by appearance alone. Honestly it does sound more like an issue with just the way you're thinking about stuff. Sure there's those stereotypical male mannerisms and "ways to be a man", but not even all the cis males out there fit into those boxes. And i've talked to plenty who also put on an "act" when it comes to certain things (I know a hell of a lot of men who fake liking sports because they think other men will give them sh*t about not liking sports, for instance). I guess it's human nature to just want to feel accepted by "the group" – whatever that group may be. But what it really comes down to, is your own happiness and comfort level. Are you happy/comfortable putting on an act? Yes? Good, do it. No? Bad, don't do it.

The degree to which almost all of daily functional life feels like "putting on a performance" makes my happiness and comfort an irrelevant factor.  There are stereotypical male mannerisms, and then there are appropriate mannerisms for anything at all.  There's stereotypical masculine clothing, and then there's doing laundry and wearing clothes.  There's short hair, there's long hair, and there's bathing every week.  None of it makes me happy or comfortable, aside from a vague sense of accomplishment that I got a chore done and I don't have to anymore, and a sense of, "this is my pantomime of a normal person with basic functional life skills."  I could decide, "not happy/comfortable putting on this act.  Bad.  Not doing it."  I could.  But then, the act I'm putting on is commonly known as hygiene.

QuoteAnd there's so many various ways to "be a man" but you have to be your own man.

The way I'm thinking about stuff is probably tripping me up, you were right, but in a different way.  People recommend and advise transitioners to "go with what feels natural," "trust your instincts," "unlearn the unwanted socialization and the real you is what's underneath," and this is good advice, some of the best advice.  I don't have any instincts to trust, though.  It's all cognitive.  I was getting confused by the supposed lack of honesty my detachment and maybe-schizoid tendencies connoted, digging for a felt authenticity in basic behavior that I don't have and never had.  I should have realized that it's all going to feel like acting anyway, and in a weird way it's freedom because it would mean I can choose, I could be in near-complete control of who I am to other people, I could get out there, play the part and nail it, no hesitation.  I could be anyone I wanted, if I wanted.

And that scares me.  It's like being commanded to prove I exist.  I could only say that I do and don't at the same time, if it's anything it's nothing, or is it, and then what?

On a different subject, I've got this body I move around in.

QuoteCircling back to the penis thing. I get what you're saying. I'm not transitioning, but I don't consider myself female either. However, I know that I will never have the perfect looking, fully functional penis that my mind thinks I have already. That's just how my brain is set up though. Maybe it's like those guys who have an unfortunate accident and lose all/part of their penis? All I know is that I didn't come into this world with a fully female brain. And I've had to deal with the reality of missing or added parts in my own way. I tried other people's ways of dealing with it, and it didn't work. But I'm certainly not going to compromise on who I am with myself (and some very close friends), and I'm done with trying to act some sort of role out for society. If people want to refer to me as a "masculine woman", whatever. They're wrong, of course, although they may never know that, but I do and that's what matters most to me.

I've been told (by so-called "professionals" no less) that I can't possible be male because I'm not even willing to do "treatment" (transition). For a long time that stayed with me and made my resentment of my physical body (and half of society) even worse. It wasn't until I had sorted some things out on my own and basically just had a, screw it, I'm just going to be myself regardless, moment, that things started looking up for me in that area. I think you need to sort through some things yourself and also realize that projecting your own opinions on others and/or holding them up to your definitions doesn't really help you at all. 

You're right, I shouldn't have been telling other people who they were and weren't.  From what I gather in the quote above, you conflate things that I don't, and don't conflate things that I do.  Where you place the boundaries of your categories is not where I place them.  That does not give me an excuse to walk in and start yelling about how I'm right and everyone is wrong.  But repeating myself, I focus on my rigid either-or body category based view of the world because it's something solid and concrete and relatively simplistic to anchor my comprehension of existence with.  It is comforting, to me.  But that does not give me an excuse to dump it on other people.

Said what I meant already about the "being myself" thing, why I can't work on that premise, how there is no "myself" that doesn't feel like acting and there never was, etc.

No, it did help, because I had to think about stuff, even though I upset people, so in the future I won't upset as many people.

Quote from: Xren on December 26, 2013, 08:40:13 PM

Said what I meant already about the "being myself" thing, why I can't work on that premise, how there is no "myself" that doesn't feel like acting and there never was, etc.

No, it did help, because I had to think about stuff, even though I upset people, so in the future I won't upset as many people.

Whether or not you think there's no myself, there still is. Your particular "self" just seems to be a pastiche. You're not abnormal is that respect. Everyone, no matter who they are or whether they have a gender issue, picks up things from other people. Often times it's done unconsciously. A mannerism here, a style of dress there, a personality trait, what makes you laugh. Humans are highly influential and highly susceptible to being influenced. But it's more the sum of all the parts make up the whole. You really are you, but you're over-analyzing yourself with a highly clinical and sanitized lens it seems.

Surly there are things you like in life. Maybe it's a food you find really tasty, a favorite color, music you like to listen to, etc. Maybe someone somewhere along the line made you try a food and then you actually ended up liking it. That was all you, the liking it part. Start with really small stuff like that and you may uncover the fact that you are a unique individual with likes and dislikes. Stop worrying so much about what other people are going to think. And stop putting that highly clinical lens on everyone else trying to analyze their every nuance. When a social situation requires it, it's okay to act sometimes. Plenty of people don't like getting dressed up and going to weddings, but they do, because it makes other people happy. But day to day, you have to explore and uncover things that resonate with you and make you feel, at the very least, okay with yourself.