Quote from: Xren on December 25, 2013, 05:44:24 PM

The problem is my brain and I'm sorry to those I hurt.

Xren, I appreciate this statement. But I think if you haven't already, an apology might go a long way with the OP of that thread.

I think there are a lot of us trans folk who harbor certain prejudices or resentments to certain ideas, behaviors, etc of other trans folk. This is the consequence of being associated with a diverse group of people based on a single characteristic. You see or read something and you're like - wait! I'm not like that! How can he do that? He must not feel the way I feel. He's totally invalidating my feelings, dysphoria, struggle, etc. And if I'm trans, then how can he be? And then you're like - god forbid anyone thinks I'm like that! I don't want to be lumped in with him! Or her. Because if he does XYZ, he's nothing like me and must not be male.


Not saying you're thinking those things Xren. But it's a common thought process. And I think most of us have had thoughts like that at one time or another. Marginalized peoples often have reactions like this. It's not unique to trans folk.

It's not wrong to have these knee jerk reactions. We probably all have that one thing that other trans guys do that pisses us off and hits us on some visceral level we can't explain. The thing is - for every guy whose behavior, presentation, failure to have certain surgeries or do certain things, etc etc bothers you, I can almost guarantee that guy finds some aspect of your identity as a trans person objectionable as well. I have my own hang-ups about certain things some trans guys do but I also have things about me that bother other guys as well.

Dysphoria hits people in different ways. These guys who don't want bottom surgery for whatever reason just see things differently than you. As a presumed white person, do you agree with the feelings and actions of all other white people? No? Because you realize they just share a single characteristic to you and it doesn't mean anything. Try to remind yourself of this with regard to trans people.

While I had the benefit of not being offended by the other thread, as I had not read it prior to reading this one although I have now gone back and looked it up, I still found this post to be largely dismissive if not mostly offensive. 

And it wasn't just "5 little words." That's the thing about accountability, it's incompatible with the tactics of understating and dismissing the original intent.  You said what you meant, that much was very clear. 

This seems to be mostly a philosophical or academic exercise for you, at least for my vantage point.  Defining the self, relating to gender, understanding non verbal communication, diagnosing your lack of interest in the importance of it, the characteristics of biological sex and gender, etc.  There is a time and place for that.  There are entire departments in universities designed for just such a noble cause.  Maybe there are even threads on online forums dedicated to just such discussions, but that wasn't one of them and I'm not sure this is necessarily the right spot either given that your context was apologizing for another thread and then dismissing a variety of identities and bodies.

I'm a well educated and articulate human -- I enjoy a good discussion.  When I came to peace with my transition, I sought those discussions.  What did this mean?  Where was the line for me?  What was the purpose?  At what point would I know I was a man or not a man or male or not male? what were the cues? the behavior? the biology? the definition?  and I searched online and landed here and it became apparent that not everyone was so excited to have those same discussions because for so many it wasn't a philosophical or academic exploration -- it was a question of basic survival.

I know that one.  I did it early on, I nearly lost my life to that struggle.  Over many years, a handful of therapists, some broken relationships and otherworldly strength, I made peace with myself. I feel almost no different now that I've begun my transition because nothing of me is really changing, just my body.  I've lived in the seam of gender for my entire life.  Fought the long continuous battle of understanding what was female, what was male, and what was me in terms of behavior, expectation, socialization, and biology and being that I've never fit I was left with little choice than to develop a keen awareness of body langue to keep myself safe and live as whole and authentic as possible to keep from killing myself, literally and metaphorically. 

Now, as an adult, my transition isn't about any of that stuff -- it's not a question of who I am, what I am, or how I'll live as I am.  It isn't about anything but figuring out how I feel and think about it.  Not everyone is ready or interested in talking about how their brain conceptualizes things or defines the terms that best give them an understanding of their own experience, much less asking for your opinion of how other people with no sense of the experience have defined it for them.

Some of us are doing our best to weave together a delicate sense of self through these boards, through these connections, through these words, through these relationships that remind us that it's ok that we feel the way we do, experience what we do, struggle with what we do, look like we do and that we don't have to do any of that ->-bleeped-<- alone. No matter that most of the people outside of here don't understand, the people here do.  The people here support you, admire you, encourage you, empathize with you, stand with you, triumph with you, cry with you, joy with you and hurt with you.  Maybe the rest of the world doesn't get it, but we do.

Your 5 little words, weren't little.  They were like the collapse of a bomb shelter.  The place you trust to be safe when nothing else is suddenly becomes a danger in and of itself.  Even this post with it's proverbial you, it's dismissive of other peoples experience, process, identity, and authenticity.  Whatever way you've come to define the terms for you (there are convenient and widely acknowledged and accepted definitions to gender and sex for purposes of discussion) that support your own sense of self -- those are great, but it would be unrealistic to expect everyone to feel the same, much less not be offended by dismissing other people's identity by dismissing their sense of male, female, man and woman. 

I'm not a man.  I'm not a woman.  I'm not male.  I'm not female.  Humanity and language have not caught up with my manifestation yet and if I want to maintain emotional, mental and physical health -- I won't be worrying about what the rest of the world understands. AND I have to live within the boundaries and confines of the world I've been born to and the language I've been given.  We have widely varied experiences, bound by only a handful of words to describe it and doing our best to build a community on that foundation.  We won't all agree but I think we can all agree to be respectful of each other without telling one another who they are, are not, will be or won't be. 

It's not my place to say what makes a man, a woman, makes someone male, female, transexual, transgender, or genderqueer. I struggle to understand where the lines are for my own self, I wouldn't assume I could understand for anyone else. 

I don't think you did that consciously and you probably don't even feel like that's what you did, but in a way that was certainly the impact.  I support your journey and am thankful you feel really confident about your understanding of yourself but asking what motivates others to be as true themselves as they can be while simultaneously being dismissive of the experience of being male/a man without the "necessary" biology... That just seems a bit backhanded.  And offensive.  And hurtful.  And unproductive. 

If it offends you, I suspect you'll have a hard time finding a receptive ear for these discussions among so many men with varying biology. 

Lex

(My foot is in my mouth right now, but I want to see what will be said.)

What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis?  Would that mean I was a woman?  What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics?  Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?

How does anyone know that some cisgender men don't feel the same way, but they identify as male because of their bodies?  Maybe some cisgender men see themselves as extremely butch nongendered identities that happen to be considered male, with small penises?

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
(My foot is in my mouth right now, but I want to see what will be said.)

What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis?  Would that mean I was a woman?  What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics?  Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?

How does anyone know that some cisgender men don't feel the same way, but they identify as male because of their bodies?  Maybe some cisgender men see themselves as extremely butch nongendered identities that happen to be considered male, with small penises?

Not sure what you're getting at, but I don't see how it matters. You seem really focused on the physical, but merely wanting a penis doesn't make anyone male. If you're getting into genital essentialism (thanks to whomever I just got that term from the other day), then a constructed penis doesn't make anyone any more male than the lack of one.

Either genitals equal gender or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If genitals equal gender, then you're just a woman with penis envy until you get your surgery. And then there will be a host of people telling you it doesn't count as a real penis, so you're still a woman.

Quote from: FA on December 28, 2013, 02:12:54 PM
Not sure what you're getting at, but I don't see how it matters. You seem really focused on the physical, but merely wanting a penis doesn't make anyone male. If you're getting into genital essentialism (thanks to whomever I just got that term from the other day), then a constructed penis doesn't make anyone any more male than the lack of one.

Either genitals equal gender or they don't. You can't have it both ways. If genitals equal gender, then you're just a woman with penis envy until you get your surgery. And then there will be a host of people telling you it doesn't count as a real penis, so you're still a woman.

That is how I feel, pretty much.  More like genderless seeking to have typical male primary-secondary sex characteristics, but there's no way to be treated entirely genderlessly in society so I'm trying to pick a side, and most of the cis people I know don't have a very strong gender identity outside of their anatomy so I guess I'm like they are, and a lot of them aren't 100% comfortable with their social role either.  Though given the SOC and regulations and things, it means I have to lie through my teeth and pretend I have this strong sense of internal identification with something I don't even entirely believe in, so I can feel okay in my body. 

People would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community.  Some would insinuate that I'd been molested, or that I had somatic delusions.  In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that.  I.e, "surprise!  Everyone can see your body and they don't care!  Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.

So what if it makes me still "just a woman?"  I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism.  I wish I could talk about that.

(P.S.  I apologized privately.)
(P.P.S.  I should not have framed this thread in the way that I did.)

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
So what if it makes me still "just a woman?"  I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism.

Most of us do have an intense attachment for a social/binary gender. That is why guys were offended by your previous statement. You don't have to pick a gender for yourself. From what I've gathered you're on T (profile pic is old), right? If so then you're probably beyond an androgynous appearance at this point. Society will see you as male. That was the choice you made with testosterone. Other than that internally you don't have to accept yourself as male or female. One thing that is hard to do is accept yourself as you see you. Yes, people are going to gender you. That happens regardless of where you fall in the gender spectrum. This isn't about society though. This is about your internalized feelings you have adopted on yourself.

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that.  I.e, "surprise!  Everyone can see your body and they don't care!  Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.

I can actually really relate to what you're talking about here and it's kind of a whole other thing. I've had experiences where people try to physically "expose" me or get me to just "be ok" with everything just like that. If you want to continue that thread of the discussion at all off this post, feel free to pm me.

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
People would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community. 

So what if it makes me still "just a woman?"  I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism.  I wish I could talk about that.

I wouldn't listen to anyone who says you are "betraying" anyone. Seriously, if those are your friends, or even acquaintances, I'd get them the hell out of your life. From what you said, it seems these are people in the trans community or who claim to be trans allies (with the whole, it's ok to have a vagina thing, no one cares) - imo these types of people, especially when they go to the level of pantsing you, are just toxic and clearly have no idea of what dysphoria entails.

In terms of what you said about the frustrations with body language and gendered expectations...I imagine that must be incredibly difficult, to feel like you have to put on a performance. I can relate, in some ways. Have you ever considered just not worrying about body language? I remember I used to get really hung up on my body language because my brother made fun of it (saying that I was "awkward") and it really made me paranoid (I also worried it wasn't male enough and that I'd be targeted). I tried to control everything I could to make myself seem confident - my walk, my talk, the space I took up, etc. And then he made fun of me more because I wasn't truly confident, I was just trying to "play the role." I then realized it had to come from the inside out, so I just let myself  be "awkward" and "effeminate" and just let everything fall into place as I grew as a person. Much easier said than done, but it can happen. Sometimes I get a giggle or something from someone when I do something "gay" but who cares? I'm not transitioning to fit into some male role or male stereotype. I'm transitioning to be comfortable in my body. I'd really try and let your focus be there...are you happy with T? I don't know if you've had any surgery at all, but are you happy with that? That's what matters. And one day you can have the bottom surgery that you want, and have your penis, and feel even more comfortable.

I guess what I am getting at is why worry about body language and how others perceive you when you have enough on your plate as it is?

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 03:17:37 PM

That is how I feel, pretty much.  More like genderless seeking to have typical male primary-secondary sex characteristics, but there's no way to be treated entirely genderlessly in society so I'm trying to pick a side,

There are others here who feel the same way. I feel like that a little bit. I don't have a particularly strong tie to being male anymore. I have a more androgynous personality - masculine in some respects, not so masculine in others. I don't care for the male social role much more than I did the female one (though I thought I would before transition, now I know gender roles just suck period).  But I'm comfortable with my factory genitals. It was the other stuff that bothered me.

Quoteand most of the cis people I know don't have a very strong gender identity outside of their anatomy so I guess I'm like they are, and a lot of them aren't 100% comfortable with their social role either. 

But you aren't like those cis people because otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal to you what genitals you had.

QuotePeople would still turn around and get angry at me and say I'm insane and should see a therapist to fix me from being this way and that I'm betraying the community.  Some would insinuate that I'd been molested, or that I had somatic delusions.  In the past, I've opened up about this and seen my former friends try to feed me those excuses/explanations, to the point of trying to play "gotcha" with physically-related things in a humiliating way, to try and, I dunno, "convince" me I had some weird internal misogyny hangup or sexual trauma that was only making me think I needed this and I had to get over it, once I saw that it was "okay to have a vagina" via pantsing me/unexpected exposure or grabbing me in the labia while insisting they weren't or...some clever maneuver like that.  I.e, "surprise!  Everyone can see your body and they don't care!  Can't you just stop feeling the way you do already, because there's nothing wrong with being the way you are," and expecting me to have this magical epiphany and my entire neurological map to vanish into thin air and I'd be normal again with maybe these extremely radical feminist leanings.

I'm sorry to hear you've been exposed to this treatment. Sounds like sexual harassment. Are these former 'friends' radical feminists? (not to malign radical feminists)

Why do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?

QuoteSo what if it makes me still "just a woman?"  I don't have any intense attachment to any social gender, but I have to learn the male one for the sake of survival and being taken seriously by doctors and it sucks but it's pragmatism.  I wish I could talk about that.

You can. Not everyone loves the male social role or any social role. Like anything else, it fits some better than others. That's not so much to do with gender identity either. It fits some cis people better than others too.

wow, you guys get pretty heavy over here. All I know is that my brain was wired at birth to be female but forgot to do the bottom.

Quote from: stephaniec on December 28, 2013, 08:23:20 PM
wow, you guys get pretty heavy over here. All I know is that my brain was wired at birth to be female but forgot to do the bottom.

Same here, but the other way around. This is all very confusing to me, lol. Interesting though. Even though it's way over my head.

(Late reply, this is not very fun to talk about.  Should have said things sooner.  Probably should not be bumping this thread.)

Quote from: insideontheoutside on December 28, 2013, 04:23:50 PM
I can actually really relate to what you're talking about here and it's kind of a whole other thing. I've had experiences where people try to physically "expose" me or get me to just "be ok" with everything just like that. If you want to continue that thread of the discussion at all off this post, feel free to pm me.

Thank you.  I appreciate your willingness to discuss uncomfortable aspects of life with this condition...heck, I can barely think about most of it.  I may or may not PM, but I am appreciative of this.

Quote from: caleb. on December 28, 2013, 04:36:00 PM
From what you said, it seems these are people in the trans community or who claim to be trans allies (with the whole, it's ok to have a vagina thing, no one cares) - imo these types of people, especially when they go to the level of pantsing you, are just toxic and clearly have no idea of what dysphoria entails.

Yup.  This is why I'm hesitant to, and somewhat bitter about, going into great detail concerning this topic.  My emotional nuance ability is shutting down as I type, fyi, if I think about it too much I will lapse into the clinical language which tends to be misconstrued.  This "toxic" (as you put it) behavior has come from mostly either people in/affiliated with the trans community, or the uber-feminist sex-positive love-your-vagina crowd who equate discomfort with one's body parts with sexism.  I did not dislike the vagina because vagina coded female and female coded inferior.  "Dislike" wasn't the right word.  Instead, a sense of "this does not belong on me" due to the aforementioned body map.  It's all body map, for me.  It's got nothing to do with the external perception of anyone, or any ideas of mine about gender.

Quote from: caleb. on December 28, 2013, 04:36:00 PM
Have you ever considered just not worrying about body language?

Yes.  I also live in a part of Ohio where it's likely to get me killed or beaten if I'm not some combination of incredibly ruthless, potentially violently psychotic, a Bruce Lee Jeet Kun Do martial arts badarse mofo, and/or a gun owner.  It got me run out of the town where I was going to college, and those jerks followed me home for a second helping of cruelty.  I'm alive because I'm very good at evasion and disappearing.

Quote..are you happy with T?

Don't get me started on this.  Not mad at you, but if I start, I'm not going to stop.  No, I'm not "happy on T," but what do you mean by "happy" and what form of T are you talking about?  I've had issues with T, and it's been a miserable time, going on and off because I had to, though BTW I am on it right now, a daily dose of topical because everything else turns horrible almost instantaneously.  That does not somehow indicate that I am "actually not trans" or whatever.  T is not magic.  T is not special occulted boy-juice that proves who knows what is best for them.  T is not fun.  Puberty is GRUELING.  But it makes my chest hair grow, and my beard grow, and my parts grow.  It makes my voice deepen, not enough for my comfort, but slowly and surely.  I'm just as grouchy and surly as I was before.  Emotionally I am the same on T as off T, maybe twitchier but that's it.  It feels the same as the first run of puberty, except this time I'm not getting the bleeds.  This not joy, this is not rapture, this is not "the right fuel for my engine," (and they call me essentialist,) this is welcome back to the beautiful hell called physical maturation.  Some good, some bad, all completely insane...insane in a neutral way.

Quote from: FA on December 28, 2013, 06:32:56 PM
But you aren't like those cis people because otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal to you what genitals you had.

But if I had been born with the right set I would be like those cis people. 

QuoteAre these former 'friends' radical feminists? (not to malign radical feminists)

To repeat myself--they were pretty far from it, by most definitions.  Unless you include sex-positive hipster ideological "gender rebel" feminists in your definition of radfems.  (A lot of their so-called feminism boiled down to "anything that society calls masculine is wrong and bad, even if you don't define it as masculine but just how you are personally," for starters.)

QuoteWhy do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?

The phrasing of this question is slightly unnerving, i.e, "why do you think you feel xyz," implication being that I only *think* I feel a certain way and there's no possible sane way I could honestly feel like this because it doesn't fit a paradigm.  I may be reading too much into this, I'm not sure if I am being oversensitive or not.

Why do I feel this way (and not just think I feel?)  Because, as I've said before, neurological body map is neurological body map.  My "ties to being male" begin and end with the body type that the word "male" usually pertains to.  Because that is how I see myself and everyone.  What other physical aspects do I care about?  This is a loaded question and I can't answer it without anger about "cis-centrism" and attribution of psychological motives getting in the way.  Yes, I am planning on a full medical transition.  I do not agree that genitals make the "man," because I don't think there is such thing, but I do agree that genitals make the male, because genitals are the only reason the concept of "male" exists, and "male" means nothing aside from genitals and a degree of variation on the theme of other body characteristics.  Everything else is society's sexism and personal preference that society has wrangled and shoehorned into sexist concepts.

So it's wrong to genital essentialize, but perfectly fine to gender essentialize?  This is why I'm uncomfortable with framing things in terms of "gender identity."  The entire concept seems incredibly sexist to me--sexist against men and women alike.  The concepts of "masculine" and "feminine" are sexist to me as well.  I have mostly traits that society would call "masculine."  I'm not comfortable with defining them as "masculine" or "male," though.  They're mine, they're the way I happen to be, what I happen to prefer and it's got nothing to do with my sense of what my body should be or any investment in the concept of "man."  If I didn't have the bodily sense that I did I would have been a girl or a woman with the same set of interests and preferences.  I can't live with myself redefining traits that are personal into some gendered box, even if society does.  This is my main problem with any kind of gender socialization, because they take personal preferences and attribute them, with a smarmy wink-wink attitude, to the concept of "man" or "woman."  It's slimy and uncomfortable to have my personal preferences taken out of "me" and stuck in this box of "dude."  No I am NOT a "total dude" because I love beer and action movies and running around in the mud and I tend to sprawl my legs when I sit. What about all the male people who aren't like this?  What about all the female people who are like this?  I would have BEEN one of the "female people who are like this," except for the whole issue of...

"My sense of my body is set up inside in a way that happens to map to a body type that is called male by its characteristics, as opposed to female and I don't know why.  Go figure.  If it is not surgically correctable, then I have to learn to live with it--oh wait, it's medically possible to correct these physical anomalies?  Can I stay the same in terms of personality?  Then sign me up!  Oh wait, there are all these different social norms and everyone is responding to me differently just because I'm doing this and expecting different things of me.  That sucks.  That makes me mad.  Meanwhile, I'm trying to sort out other issues, such as past trauma from bullying and forced psychiatric medication, and trying to avoid harassment in the present day for a medical condition I can't help, so I'll forget about it for now."

Also, I do not retract the statement that I made, of "so what if they still think of me as a girl?"  Because it still doesn't matter.  They can think whatever they want, because the term is meaningless to me.  If it looks like a penis, erects like a penis, does other things like a penis, you can call it whatever you want but it's still a penis and there is a difference between it and a clitoris, or even a penis with a vagina underneath.  Until then, I keep my pants on around other people.  Probably after then, too.  Afterward would be less awkward and lead to less awkward conversations.  So they can insist on calling it a gigantic clitoris with a line of scar tissue where a vagina would be, and these lumpy formerly-labia flesh-bulbs underneath it that it sits on, with a urethra on the end that I pee through, whatev, fine then, it's the strangest clitoris I've ever heard of--but there's no denying it's not in the same category as any other clitoris they're likely to have seen.  Because at the end of the day it is not, in fact, a clitoris, but a penis and no amount of linguistics or denial is going to undo that.

Quote from: Xren on December 31, 2013, 03:34:34 PM

QuoteWhy do you think you feel the way you do about your genitals if you don't have any ties to being male? What other physical aspects do you care about? Have you had or are you planning a full medical transition? Based on your statement in the other thread - why do you agree that genitals make the man if you don't feel you have a gender identity yet want a penis?

The phrasing of this question is slightly unnerving, i.e, "why do you think you feel xyz," implication being that I only *think* I feel a certain way and there's no possible sane way I could honestly feel like this because it doesn't fit a paradigm.  I may be reading too much into this, I'm not sure if I am being oversensitive or not.

Well, you've written a lot here and I may reply to more of it. But for a start, yes you are reading more into it. I simply meant 'why do you think you feel this way?' rather than any implication you only 'think' you feel a certain way. Basically, you feel what you feel, but why do you think that is?

I didn't mean it as in did T solve all your problems, lol. Anyone who has been on it long enough knows that's the furthest thing from true and not all the results are exactly pleasurable. 21 months in and I feel better about my body all in all, but I still have dysphoria and issues and whatnot. I just meant, focus on the fact that you are getting where you want to be physically. Though given that you've had some bad experiences and live in a place where you can't afford to stand out in terms of body language, I can understand why you're concerned about how you present to others.

I don't like when people label my behaviours feminine or masculine either - because it's sticking to gender roles and stereotypes (what we associate with men and what we associate with women), and I think that as a society we are, or should be, so far past that by now. I also hate how I do things exactly the same as I used to, but people interpret them differently, because it shows me their lack of objectivity. And it used to really piss me off on an intellectual level, but I realized, I'm not going to waste my energy wondering how other people interpret my behaviours. I understand that you need to watch out for your safety, but it's obviously stressing you out being pre-occupied with how others read your body language. I can't entirely relate to your situation as I live in a fairly safe place, but I'd worry simply about the practical - learning to defend yourself physically, perhaps investing in a weapon, and blending in only when necessary. Instead of intellectualizing it.

I'm not sure if I sound like a dick or not. I'm not trying to be judgmental or harsh, I just see that you're obviously having a hard time and seeing if I have any ideas that might help.

Quote from: Xren on December 28, 2013, 12:23:09 PM
What if I transitioned all the way to what is considered physically "male" and then went back to not living as a man, but living as either arbitrarily-gendered or a woman with a surgically-constructed penis?  Would that mean I was a woman?  What if I didn't mind being seen as either, but did mind the shape of my body and primary/secondary sex characteristics?  Does that mean that deep down inside, I am an extremely butch woman or nongendered entity with a small penis?

You can do that and it would mean you were whatever gender you identified as. Have you heard of the term agender? It means you don't have a gender identity (meaning social gender and not how you feel your body should be). I think it might fit you.

I think it might help you to separate gender into different parts. There's how you feel your body should be, gender roles (like providing for your family or being a stay at home parent, your hobbies), social gender/gender identity (how you want people to see you, how you interact with people, body language) and gender expression (your clothes, jewelry, hair and stuff). You can be any combination of those things and even different gendered things in those categories. Like you could want to have a penis and breasts. You might like sports & sewing. You might like make up & mens clothes. You could be any combination.

Also, I'm Autistic and you sound like you are to me. You don't have to be unable to understand body language to be Autistic 

Quote from: caleb. on December 31, 2013, 09:05:30 PM
I didn't mean it as in did T solve all your problems, lol. Anyone who has been on it long enough knows that's the furthest thing from true and not all the results are exactly pleasurable. 21 months in and I feel better about my body all in all, but I still have dysphoria and issues and whatnot. I just meant, focus on the fact that you are getting where you want to be physically. Though given that you've had some bad experiences and live in a place where you can't afford to stand out in terms of body language, I can understand why you're concerned about how you present to others.

I don't like when people label my behaviours feminine or masculine either - because it's sticking to gender roles and stereotypes (what we associate with men and what we associate with women), and I think that as a society we are, or should be, so far past that by now. I also hate how I do things exactly the same as I used to, but people interpret them differently, because it shows me their lack of objectivity. And it used to really piss me off on an intellectual level, but I realized, I'm not going to waste my energy wondering how other people interpret my behaviours. I understand that you need to watch out for your safety, but it's obviously stressing you out being pre-occupied with how others read your body language. I can't entirely relate to your situation as I live in a fairly safe place, but I'd worry simply about the practical - learning to defend yourself physically, perhaps investing in a weapon, and blending in only when necessary. Instead of intellectualizing it.

I'm not sure if I sound like a dick or not. I'm not trying to be judgmental or harsh, I just see that you're obviously having a hard time and seeing if I have any ideas that might help.

You don't sound dickish, judgmental or harsh to me at all.  This is great advice--I've been trying out things along these lines, in terms of how I'm seeing life mentally and what mindset I'm in and it has helped a lot with the indignant confusion I get mired in.  Also I completely relate wrt the frustration over lack of perspective from society, and I think you're right about trying not to stress so much over it, while making sure to have a means of self-defense.

It's kind of aggravating how family and friends and others can fall into an expectation that this process is supposed to make one all happy smiles all the time every time, and if one is not, then they start to doubt the necessity or validity of even doing this...do they not remember there's still a thing called life going on?  LOL.

Quote from: Xren on January 01, 2014, 09:34:18 AM
It's kind of aggravating how family and friends and others can fall into an expectation that this process is supposed to make one all happy smiles all the time every time, and if one is not, then they start to doubt the necessity or validity of even doing this...do they not remember there's still a thing called life going on?  LOL.

I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition. Like if I am sad or angry, "oh your transition is not going well atm?" If things are great "well you're finally being you, of course it's great!" If I do something "feminine", it's either "oh you haven't unlearned your socialization" or "you're embracing being born female and being proud of your difference!" If I do something "masculine" I'm either "getting in touch with the real Caleb!" or "overcompensating and being a douche." Like, maybe I am just doing what I want to do, and feeling how I feel, and it has nothing to do with transition.

I think there's basically no way any of us can win with other people. But if they hold us to these strict stereotypes and make everything about gender, chances are, they do it to themselves too. Essentialize themselves and their loved ones based on their sex. I figure if they want to limit their existence that's their choice lol.

Quote from: caleb. on January 01, 2014, 05:13:27 PM
I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition. Like if I am sad or angry, "oh your transition is not going well atm?" If things are great "well you're finally being you, of course it's great!" If I do something "feminine", it's either "oh you haven't unlearned your socialization" or "you're embracing being born female and being proud of your difference!" If I do something "masculine" I'm either "getting in touch with the real Caleb!" or "overcompensating and being a douche." Like, maybe I am just doing what I want to do, and feeling how I feel, and it has nothing to do with transition.

I think there's basically no way any of us can win with other people. But if they hold us to these strict stereotypes and make everything about gender, chances are, they do it to themselves too. Essentialize themselves and their loved ones based on their sex. I figure if they want to limit their existence that's their choice lol.

Are we the same person?  It drives me crazy. I usually try to turn it around on them, but I end up looking like a jerk because they don't see what the big deal is, lol.

Quote from: caleb. on January 01, 2014, 05:13:27 PM
I so get this. That's part of the reason why I try to be as stealth as I can...people get so fascinated with the process and my response to it and they think EVERYTHING is somehow related to my transition.

Yes, that is completely annoying. Besides safety reasons I'm also stealth in 99% of situations because I get sick of people focusing just on the fact that I'm trans. Cis people usually fall into two categories in my experience...they're either really fascinated with the process or completely weirded out by it. Either way it seems if they know then it's what they categorize us as.

Quote from: Xren on December 24, 2013, 01:42:17 PM
In light of my ill-conceived comment on an old thread a few days ago, I have to explain myself.

From the beginning of my transition process, I've overreacted and taken personally the existence of people who define themselves as men who don't, and never will, have penises/do, and always will, have vaginas.  I should not be personally upset by this because it's not my business, but it just seems...alienating to me.  This is because don't think of "gender" the same way.  I don't understand the concept of gender at all.  I don't have a "gender."  I have a sense of what my physical sex should be, and a set of personal preferences/traits that have nothing to to with what I sense should be part of my body.  For my entire life, I have understood "male" and "female" to be nothing more than convenient words to describe people with certain sets of physical characteristics, which have nothing to do with clothing, hairstyle, behavior or interests.  I over-react to the whole "genitals do not equal gender" idea SOLELY because it is invalidating to me.  If I did not feel that there should be a penis/scrotum-shaped thing/no vagina down there, I would never have transitioned in the first place, and I would not identify as male.  I may have gotten a hysterectomy and a breast reduction, but I would still have identified as female because I do not see gender--mine or anyone else's--as independent from body parts.

Pretty much the only thing that helps, when I'm getting insecure in my masculinity, is to close my eyes and sense my neural map, and the phantom penis it includes. 

I had this discussion with you a long time ago. I was so, so wrong. I'm so sorry.