i don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

reason:  i just don't

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
i don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.

reason:  i just don't

I already knew that.

I also knew your reason would be brief.

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

Quote from: Ell on August 08, 2007, 02:42:47 PM

Quote from: Tay on August 07, 2007, 11:09:08 PM
I desperately need a hysterectomy.  I want top surgery to remove my breasts.  I am gender neutral, in my head.  The idea of being male feels wrong.  The idea of being female feels wrong.

Tay,

you may not be transsexual, but you are obviously transgender, and you should not have any more difficulty than any other transgender patient in getting a letter on that basis. the letter does not need to specify that you are FTM, just that you have Gender Dysphoria.

as for changing your documents, that may be a little tricky. but perhaps not impossible.

Trouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.  Finding someone who is willing to think outside of those boxes and take the risk of malpractice suits?

Not easy.  And I'm not allowed to go black market.

   Yeah.  Don't go black market, Tay. It could not only destroy you, but it will not contribute to getting the system to work better.

   I wish I could help you.

Quote from: Rebis on August 08, 2007, 10:56:20 PM
   Yeah.  Don't go black market, Tay. It could not only destroy you, but it will not contribute to getting the system to work better.

   I wish I could help you.

Error and Sophie would kick my butt from here to kingdom come and back again, before stringing me up by my toenails, telling me off and forbidding me from masturbating or having sex for the rest of my life.

Quote from: Ell on August 08, 2007, 11:20:20 PM
i think you should get Rebecca (the activist) to petition the SOC and get androgyny included on the schedule.

Unfamiliar with this Rebecca.

Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

Quote from: Ell on August 09, 2007, 12:53:43 AM

Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 12:05:13 AM
Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

still, however, i cannot believe that a gender therapist will not give you a letter. i can't believe they would consider you a greater risk than a TS. that just doesn't make sense. since the surgery you need is typically regarded as FTM, then get close to some FTM's and get recommendations regarding good gender therapists. then be up front with the therapist, explain your situation, and get an answer from her on the first session, whether you getting a letter would be out of the question. if she says it would be unlikely, then graciously end the session and see another therapist.

The therapist thing tends to be complicated by my dread fear of all forms of shrinks.  (Yay for being the subject of psychological experiments as a child!)  Error and Sophie are going to preview the therapist they're planning on going to, to see if she'll be at all interested in trying to help me, but the SOC are there to protect doctors, as much as anything else...  Makes things hard.

I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative

QuoteTrouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.

Exactly! The DSM and SOC are completely informed and constructed around the belief that there are two and only two genders. They really haven't figured out how to deal with gender awareness and expression outside the binary. At this time, the best one can hope for is to find sympathetic health care practitioners to receive the services and treatments we desire for ourselves. Either that, or lie, which for me isn't an option.

Zythyra

Quote from: zythyra on August 09, 2007, 09:16:12 AM

QuoteTrouble lies in the fact that the DSM and the SOC both only include the binary as examples.

Exactly! The DSM and SOC are completely informed and constructed around the belief that there are two and only two genders. They really haven't figured out how to deal with gender awareness and expression outside the binary. At this time, the best one can hope for is to find sympathetic health care practitioners to receive the services and treatments we desire for ourselves. Either that, or lie, which for me isn't an option.

Zythyra

There is good reason that these documents are set up to deal with the binary.

Both are set up to deal with practitioner diagnoses and procedures. They are not set up to define ranges of human behavior/being.

DSM, of any designation, is a way for practitioners to communicate with one another about what they see in clientele and to form a lexicon that llows them, rgeardles of language and training, to speak sensibly about those clients.

It is not meant to validate or invalidate a particular form of human being or behavior.

Since the binary is true to life for the vast majority of human beings, the documents use the binary as a reference point for their statements about such people and our behaviors.

I find androgynes to be gender expressionists rather than a gender identity. 

Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 01:05:04 PM
I find androgynes to be gender expressionists rather than a gender identity. 

No, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

QuoteDo FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?

they aint crazy or wierd. I accept androgyne as a gender alternative.

QuoteNo, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses. 

Nichole

crazy or weird? not all of them, but this goes for m2f, f2m, and non trans people too

R

Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM

QuoteNo, no: for some it is clearly an identity, not just a matter of expression -- or in some cases, it can even be just an identity, without any clearly visible androgyne gender expression.

Also, gender identity may not be all that uniform either. It's entirely possible to identify as androgyne with respect to social gender (again, with little actual expression) yet have a clear binary gender preference about the anatomy. Or, I have to assume, any combination.

The SoC acknowledges this in a way, to the extent that the desire to reassign anatomical sex to match social gender identity is what defines a transsexual, relative to other flavours of transgendered. That isn't the whole picture, though, especially since it assumes there are only two choices for either (of course with the proviso that the intersexed should be corrected to a real sex).

  Nfr

No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses. 

Nichole

No no, Nichole. You worded it fine. You answered the question asked with the poll choice you voted. That was the whole purpose of the poll, for posters to state their honest opinions on Androgynes and not hold back.
Your post is fine and entirely appropriate given the question asked.

Thanks for telling me, Nero.

I was worried I had missed something.

Nichole

Quote from: Chris on August 09, 2007, 03:09:42 PM

QuoteDo FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?

they aint crazy or wierd. I accept androgyne as a gender alternative.

Hi Chris,

   You make me proud.  I don't think you've ever made a statement I haven't agreed with.  Thanks.

Posted on: August 09, 2007, 07:51:35 PM

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Quote from: NicholeW. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
No, No?

Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion. That was my opinion about androgynes and about why DSM/SOC are set up the way they are. 

I surely did not mean to sound omniscient or dismissive. And I imagine none of us intentionally tries to sound stoopid. I surely was not.

Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses. 

Nichole

Don't sweat it, Nichole.
   Your opinion really really is appreciated.

Posted on: August 09, 2007, 07:54:24 PM

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Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 12:05:13 AM
Ah.  Was unaware of Reeb's activism.

       I'm barely aware of it myself.  I try to write letters when possible.  I truly would love to be a serious full time advocate for people like us.  Maybe as time passes, I'll learn the skills.

       Sometimes, I forget I was Rebecca.  I miss her.   

So far a pretty large number of people consider androgynes to be valid in their identity. Those that don't see it as valid (either because they consider it gender expression, being weird, just a phase or for reasons unknown) almost come up to equal with those that do.

46.5% as compared to 39.6%

and then we've got about 13.9% of the iffy ones. Unsure or admits they don't know enough, or thinks its valid but isn't certain.

So not noting the ones that are on the fence essentially, its a semi even split between acceptance and non acceptance (with almost a 10% boost for acceptance). And that's just in the trans community itself. I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be.