Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

*Sophie chains herself to the doghouse and makes a solemn promise to not attack*

Quote from: Ell on August 09, 2007, 11:36:11 PM

Quote from: Tay on August 09, 2007, 01:02:48 AM
The therapist thing tends to be complicated by my dread fear of all forms of shrinks.  (Yay for being the subject of psychological experiments as a child!)  Error and Sophie are going to preview the therapist they're planning on going to, to see if she'll be at all interested in trying to help me, but the SOC are there to protect doctors, as much as anything else...  Makes things hard.

hmm, though you said you were desperate to have the surgery, the biggest obstacle to getting anything done seems to be...yourself!

you are putting up obstacles rather than jumping a few hurdles to reach your goal.

you are holding back, not committing; maybe even procrastinating.

i'm guessing you haven't even reached a solid decision as to which way to turn next in this issue. and that's ok. i would say, just bask in your confusion for a while, (it's a heady elixir, isn't it?) and don't look for an answer just yet.

-ell

Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary. Tay has a solid and real phobia of psychologists and doctors, enough of one to cause panic attacks in their presence. In fact I'd say having me and Err preview a psychologist beforehand (and check over other good psychologists to preview) is the most solid plan Tay has come up with yet to combat the problems with the SOC and Tay's own mental issues.

I sincerely doubt breaking down into a panicking screaming mess or going into a silent blackout episode around an unchecked psychologist will help Tay get surgery any faster will it?

Fact is, I've been looking through medical contacts and biology folk to find doctors that will perform a hysterectemy for Tay at a price that won't destroy us financially (a plan Tay formulated with me). Err and I will find a psychologist that won't put Tay into hysterics or a breakdown as well as being androgyne-friendly, which is also a plan Tay devised.

If Tay did not have these non-neurotypical reactions to shrinks and doctors, anyone could think Tay was just procrastinating out of fear. But with the knowledge I have of Tay's breakdowns from these people I can tell you that's not the case.

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 09:19:07 PM
I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be.

Trans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

(Yeah I know a lot of people don't believe TS exists either, but it's probably not as many as 90%)

Quote from: Sophia on August 09, 2007, 09:19:07 PM

<snip...>

So not noting the ones that are on the fence essentially, its a semi even split between acceptance and non acceptance (with almost a 10% boost for acceptance). And that's just in the trans community itself. I shudder to think of the poll numbers for the cisgendered world. Probably more like 90% non accepting and 10% accepting. Still gonna fight for my fiancée to get acceptance though, as daunting as the odds may be. *

And best of success in that, Sophia!  It's scary, and it seems as though the odds aren't great, but I wish you well in the try!   

( * Bolding emphasis mine...)

Scott

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 01:38:52 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

I dunno the last line of your post seemed kind of absurd in the way it was written, so it just screamed sarcasm to me. So confused....

Feel free to state your own opinions. I havent responded to this post since I am not TS, and am someone that can be called androgyne among other "labels". The poll and remarks to me is a little curious. The results of acceptance doesnt really matter to me personally, though it does answer a popular question for those that worry about the binary vs spheres/spectrum debate.  It just quantifies the TS view.

I am not going to comment on anything except to restate to feel free to state your real honest opinion.

And I think the urge for androgynes at least to jump in and defend or debate any views should be limited. Unless doing so is intent on bringing out more information on one's view.

Non-androgyne however feel free to debate.

Thank you for posting this poll Rebis, and those that have answered it honestly and truthfully. And thanks to those with comments.

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
Sorry. I thought I was supposed to give my opinion.

So you were, and thank you for doing so. If I sounded like I was attacking that opinion or reading too much into it, I'm sorry.

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 09, 2007, 03:44:32 PM
Maybe as I post more I will learn to better word my responses. 

You do fine, just don't follow my lead. 

Cheers,

  Nfr

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 03:39:09 AM

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 01:38:52 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
Ell, the sarcasm is kind of unnecessary.

i wasn't being sarcastic. my feeling is that sometimes it is better to step back and get comfortable with the idea that sometimes we don't have all the answers, and we shouldn't always force them.

I dunno the last line of your post seemed kind of absurd in the way it was written, so it just screamed sarcasm to me. So confused....

   When I first read Ell's post, I had a sense that it could be sarcastic.  However, I read it again and I realized that it was not being snarky. I think it was phrased in a way where the tone could be misinterpreted.  But I know Ell was trying to be sympathetic and so took it as that.
   Sometimes, when we write something, we know we're getting our ideas across but it's not immediately clear if we are expressing our intentions.  When in doubt, I like to reread the post with a positive view to see if my first impression was off.
   I'm happy to see that you two talked it out.  I have an intense aversion to conflict.  I like people to be happy, or if they are in a bad place, I like them to feel safe.
   

Posted on: August 10, 2007, 07:58:55 AM

---

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on August 10, 2007, 04:12:08 AM
I am not going to comment on anything except to restate to feel free to state your real honest opinion.

And I think the urge for androgynes at least to jump in and defend or debate any views should be limited. Unless doing so is intent on bringing out more information on one's view.

Non-androgyne however feel free to debate.

Thank you for posting this poll Rebis, and those that have answered it honestly and truthfully. And thanks to those with comments.

   Thank You K/K

I think, even as an androgyne, that it is easier to not accept it as a genuine identity as to accept it. I mean, look at all the mind twists we have to play, the names we have to change, the sheer number and varience of information we have to gather just to get an inkling of what we ourselves are on about...However I think there are a lot of ´normal´people who are unidentified androgynes, who never had a crisis to throw them into questioning themselves to that extent. I reckon I know I got dozen or so. And they wouldn´t accept it.

Quote from: Andra on August 10, 2007, 01:57:56 AM
Trans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

(Yeah I know a lot of people don't believe TS exists either, but it's probably not as many as 90%)

That's a really good point Andra, I imagine the results probably wouldn't be similar to the cisgendered world due to the lack of personal investment in a binary.

Quote from: Mallard500 on August 10, 2007, 03:20:48 AM
And best of success in that, Sophia!  It's scary, and it seems as though the odds aren't great, but I wish you well in the try!   

*hugs*

Quote from: Rebis on August 10, 2007, 08:02:32 AM
   When I first read Ell's post, I had a sense that it could be sarcastic.  However, I read it again and I realized that it was not being snarky. I think it was phrased in a way where the tone could be misinterpreted.  But I know Ell was trying to be sympathetic and so took it as that.

Yeah. It was really confusing because the post seemed such a huge switch from Ell's previous posts to Tay. So I didn't know how to respond at all.

Quote from: Ell on August 10, 2007, 02:43:24 PM

Quote from: Sophia on August 10, 2007, 01:33:00 PM
Yeah. It was really confusing because the post seemed such a huge switch from Ell's previous posts to Tay. So I didn't know how to respond at all.

as the discussion between Tay and i progressed, it seemed to me that we were arriving at the truth of the situation, which i perceived as confusion. i have been deeply enthralled by confusion myself, at various times, and it seems to me that if you fight it, it will take you down, and possibly hurt you. but if you just relax and go with the feeling as a natural part of being human, it is much less painful, and, in its own way, relaxing. i do have a habit of sometimes whacking people with a wake-up stick, and it may seem abrupt and curt. but the intention is not to harm, but to wake someone up.

So a kind of not fighting the river of confusion until it washes away sort of thing?

I really just think it's a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues.

QuoteTrans people are often those with the most invested in the idea of binary gender, the idea that even though your gender can end up the complete opposite of your body and chromosomes, any other mix-up is somehow completely impossible.  Most cisgendered people will be completely clueless about androgyne/intergender identities but a fair proportion will accept they exists when its explained to them.  If we explain it as another form of gender dysphoria they have no reason to think it's any less likely to be real than transsexualism.

Great point Andra! I do think however that society and many cisgendered people are also invested in perpetuating the binary system and police it. Otherwise, there'd be more freedom for people, within, in between or outside the gender binary to express who they are without discrimination.

Zythyra

Quote from: Yvonne on August 10, 2007, 06:23:20 PM
I really just think it's a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues.

For some it is, however some of us have transitioned full time into the other gender role then realised that the other binary gender option wasn't right either.  You could say that given how much I hated being male, female was a place of safety while I figured out exactly what I am 

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok.   well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok.   well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate

lol

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Nero on August 09, 2007, 09:41:10 PM
Just to pose a question to those who don't see androgyne as a valid gender identity.
No judgment, just discussion. Reasons why you don't see it as valid? Is it that you believe being born with a mixed or neither gender is impossible? Again, no judgment, honesty is what's wanted here.

honesty?, ok.   well i'm afraid that the owner of this thread didn't request an explanation for our votes.

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate

Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Sophia on August 08, 2007, 09:45:05 PM

Quote from: Katia on August 08, 2007, 02:37:52 PM
reason:  i just don't

You don't know your own reason?

oh i have my reasons, yet i'd hate to break the site rules by saying something inappropriate

Awwww come on. Humor us. As long as you don't phrase in a really awful way, it shouldn't be a problem, right?