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This is Sickeneing, Mine Rescuers Rushed to Hospital

Started by melissa90299, August 16, 2007, 09:46:36 PM

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melissa90299

CNN, MSNBC, etc reporting that miners in rescue effort at the Utah mine have been involved in another accident, not confirmed but it sounds like fatalities...

This whole rescue effort and the role of this wacko CEO has puzzled me all along. The guy in charge to investigate this is a Bush cronie and Mine Industry lackie. Sad.
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cindianna_jones

I haven't followed it all that closely... but

I think that the CEO has grown up in the mining business... he may have done some mining himself.  His operations have never had a fatality.  He's really been put under a microscope.

I'm willing to cut him some slack.  I think that we don't even know this guy and are much too willing to crucify him before all the facts are in.

I'm wondering what's going on with the eathquake in South America... and all I can find is the Utah mine story.

Cindi
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melissa90299

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 17, 2007, 12:34:46 AM
I haven't followed it all that closely... but

I think that the CEO has grown up in the mining business... he may have done some mining himself.  His operations have never had a fatality.  He's really been put under a microscope.

I'm willing to cut him some slack.  I think that we don't even know this guy and are much too willing to crucify him before all the facts are in.

I'm wondering what's going on with the eathquake in South America... and all I can find is the Utah mine story.

Cindi

I think you might want to do some more research on the CEO's safety record.
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Rachael

when theres an accident in a mine, there are OFTEN fatalities with the recsue crew or injuries. my grandfather was a mine rescue specialist. Usually a collapsed tunnel is dangerous (no s***)stuff is unstable, more accidents arnt to be 'tutted at' but just hope SOME people get out, because those rescuers your calling incompitant are risking thier lives, to save those of others. so wind your neck back in.

R :police:
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cindianna_jones

And now three of the rescuers are dead.  This is just down right heart breaking.

Cindi
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Rachael

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Rachael

superman doesnt exist, neither does the toothfairy, or santaclause...

ktnx

R :police:
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Teri Anne

49% of our country's electricity comes from coal.  I think it's about time that the government and best scientists got involved in thinking up safer ways to go about it.  I used to think open-strip mining was ugly but, after these deaths, I'm thinking that, if we have to have coal (until other energy sources are created), maybe that's a better way to go about it.  But I guess you don't dig coal that way.  Coal is just a narrow ribbon which you tunnel through to get.

Drills going into the soil should be FASTER.  It's surprising that, with lasers in existence, we're still using whirling drill bits.  With the world watching, it's also surprising that they only have two drill machines going.

Teri Anne
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Rachael

these deaths? you realise how many miners have died since man went beneath the surface for minerals and fuel?
it happens, get over it. i dont think the miners will have a problem working once its safed up...

R :police:
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RebeccaFog


There is to a superman and a tooth fairy.  Not Santa Claus, though, because everybody knows that reindeer can't stand on a rooftop.
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cindianna_jones

Yes, strip mining seems like a safer option.  I think that it is most efficient as well.  It should be possible to restore the environment after a mining operation is finished.  I know it is a tough thing to do, but I'm sure that it is possible.

Oh.. FWIW, I am a tree hugger.

Cindi
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 18, 2007, 10:43:06 PM
Yes, strip mining seems like a safer option.  I think that it is most efficient as well.  It should be possible to restore the environment after a mining operation is finished.  I know it is a tough thing to do, but I'm sure that it is possible.

Oh.. FWIW, I am a tree hugger.

Cindi

Not only is it possible, in my inestimable opinion, but it would provide nice outdoor jobs for people.
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Keira


Strip mining!!!! It takes forever to "restore" the territory to not so pristine condition and who will pay for that when the mining companies are not even able to provide good conditions for their miners (it CAN be done if they put more emphasis on safety and less on quick and dirty). In West Virgina they chop off whole mountain tops, fill the valley and streams with debris and leave the place a hellish mess.

The second cave in occured near the first one, the mine was totally compromised and it was almost predictable that the second one would occur.

For me, the sickening thing is people rushing in the face of death, with very little done for security, they were shoring up the mine as they went, when there is very little proof that the first bunch actually survived. Problem is that kind of fixing mine as you go is that you can't fix much beyond what you see, there could have been (and there was), weaknesses in the mine structure beyond the tunnel caused by the first cave in that obviously couldn't be seen. I don't know why experienced miners would not realize that.

Everybody was pushing them on, when people should have wondered if the risk was getting to great as they were approaching the first cave in site.


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cindianna_jones

Yes, strip mining can be an ecological disaster.

Here in California, clear cutting trees used to be the norm.  Pioneering efforts by a logging operation in the Santa Cruz mountains proved that trees could be logged effectively with selective cutting.  Yes, it is a bit more expensive in the short term. But it far outweighs the long term expenses.  Now, selective cutting is a prominent part of the timber industry here.

We see similar efforts in coal burning electric generation facilities across the country. 

I think that it is possible to allow strip mining with appropriate measures to prevent pollution and to also restore the site after the coal is extracted.

I do wonder about mines... are they collapsed after the mining is done?  I wonder if anyone  puts up buildings on top of them?

Cindi
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Rachael

coal mineing wont be necesry if neuclear and fussion power are worked on :)

R :police:
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Teri Anne

#16
The mine owner, Murray, commented shortly before the 2nd cave-in that the "mountain is moving."  It seems amazing to me (and granted we're all backseat quarterbacks) that anyone would think that temporary shoring could stand against the movement of a gigantic mountain.  Man vs. Nature?  In this case, I think we'll lose.

A poll once taken of soldiers in World War II revealed that the soldiers hadn't risked their lives for their country -- they did it to save their fellow soldiers.  Miners, like warriors in battle, will go to extreme risk to save their buddies.  I'm not surprised they took risk to try to save them.

Like Cindi, I think that strip mining COULD be done, like well-managed logging, in an ecologically-sensitive manner.

I, so far, don't trust nuclear power (because of the disposal problem of nuclear "waste").  I still hope that we can, as some countries have started doing, researching and building wave and current-powered electrical power stations.  In Tacoma Narrows, Washington, for example, the current is VERY strong in this narrow part of the Sound and it seems ridiculous that we haven't harnessed that obvious energy source.   The turbines would turn as through 2 high tides and 2 low tides per day.  If you can derive power from turbines at Hoover Dam, you can get power from strong underwater currents.  The Golden Gate in San Francisco is another area with strong unused currents.  I believe Spain actually has a working current power plant.  Currents producing currents, lol.

Fussion power, while promising, isn't there yet, apparently.  I imagine that there HAVE to be people working on it.

In the meantime, I still wish for safer mining methods.  One easy fix would be to outlaw reverse mining where, at the end of a mine's life, coal support pillars are taken out in order to get the last of the coal out of the mine.  Cave-in's are expected.  Some say that the Minnesota mine was in the process of doing this kind of mining before the first collapse.

Teri Anne
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cindianna_jones

Quote
I, so far, don't trust nuclear power (because of the disposal problem of nuclear "waste"). 

There is a nuclear technology that burns this waste.  In fact, if we just burn the "waste" we have in our current stockpiles, we can supply ALL the energy our country needs for two centuries.

It's called "fast neutron sodium cooled reactors".  They'll burn 99 percent of any fissionable material.  The left over waste has a very small half life.  It's negligible.  No weapons grade materials are created in this process

From what I've been able to find out, Russia is developing this technology to burn its radioactive waste stockpiles.  We are fighting over oil.  When Russia is selling this power producing technology to other countries, we'll still be fighting over oil.

There was a nice write up for lay people about this in the December 2005 issue of Scientific American.  See:

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NuclearFastReactorsSA1205.pdf

Oh, eventually we'll get to it.  We'll end up killing each other over a tank of gasoline first.  Then we will consider it an important alternative.

Cindi
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Keira


I think nuclear power's got a bad rap from badly designed reactors like Chernobyl, Three mile Island in comparaison was much better designed and the risks in the worse case was minimal.

There is a way now to make reactors that very very safe, even if they are attacked by terrorists from the inside, by making then prone to shut down if certain actions don't take place.

As for nuclear waste, yeah, its bad, but its in a very very concentrated form in a small area, even if it leaches out, the area deeply affected would still be small. Also, there is a way make it less dangerous.

Basicaly, there is a lot of fear mongering.

I would trust nuclear power's ability to provide good safe clean power than the ability of coal to do the same.
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: Keira on August 20, 2007, 03:52:27 PM

As for nuclear waste, yeah, its bad, but its in a very very concentrated form in a small area, even if it leaches out, the area deeply affected would still be small. Also, there is a way make it less dangerous.


But here's the thing... we could build reactors that burn the waste we already have! We just don't want to.  Nuclear reactors need not produce large amounts of dangerous waste.  This new technology I referenced above takes care of many of the problems for which we have learned to hate nuclear reactors.

Cindi
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