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Opinion of MtF's & FtM's concerning androgynes

Started by RebeccaFog, August 05, 2007, 12:54:05 AM

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Do FtM's & MtF's think androgynes are wierd or crazy?  (Be Honest) Androgynes need not respond.

I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.
64 (55.2%)
I don't really accept Androgyne as a gender alternative.
10 (8.6%)
I really just think it's a phase. A place of safety while working out Gender issues.
5 (4.3%)
You people are deranged. Please leave me alone.
3 (2.6%)
It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity.
12 (10.3%)
Undecided
3 (2.6%)
Don't understand it or know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other.
12 (10.3%)
I somewhat believe it's a valid gender identity, but don't know for sure.
7 (6%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Hypatia

I wasn't sure what to select in the poll, so I didn't select anything... Let me try to explain. Apologizing in advance... It's hard for me to think about objectively, just because I'm so wrapped up in my own TS problems right now, it's hard to think of what it means to the other individuals, because I worry too much about how it might impact me. My apology is for approaching this in such a self-centered way, when the question isn't about me at all.

I have been accused of perpetuating the oppressive gender binary simply because I identify strongly as one gender to the exclusion of the other. Intellectually, I get what people mean when they advocate there should be no gender at all--but I don't feel it. All I can feel is that I'm a woman. I have been facing so much difficulty in winning acceptance for my transition that I feel constantly on the defensive.

If you had asked me half a year ago, I would have said unhesitatingly, Yes, I'm all for androgynes, genderqueers, anyone who helps to break down the rigid gender binary that keeps us all in prison. But now that my transition is picking up momentum, it takes so much of my attention and concern to defend who I am, I can't spare much thought for people with different problems. I don't like being so self-centered, because I idealistically believe in the value of altruism--but circumstances right now force me to focus on my own problems.

Intellectually, I readily agree that androgynes exist, your existence is perfectly valid, and you deserve to be recognized for your authentic identity same as anyone else. I cannot feel what it would be like to be androgyne. At the same time, I very much respect the need and the right to identify as androgynous. Because I'm so sick of clueless cissexual people who put down transsexual people saying "I don't know what you mean, you feel like a woman, cause I don't feel I have anything invested in my gender, I don't care about it, it's just my body" and stuff like that. The cluelessness of privilege, unable to conceive of what it's like to be deprived of that privilege. I don't want to turn around and inflict the same cluelessness on other people who have to struggle for their identity.

My former therapist tried to make me accept being "two spirit" by which I think she meant "half male." Well, screw that! Maleness is so abhorrent to me, all I can think is "get it awayyyy!" I was so depressed and suicidal by her insistence on my part-maleness, I fired her and found a therapist who supports my womanhood and my need to get free of the gloomy prison of maleness. I resent that all TS people should be forced to accept any compromise identity like "two spirit" just because some people are that way.

Julia Serano wrote about problems with the non-gendered ideal in Whipping Girl:
QuoteThis sort of thinking, when taken to the extreme, can privilege those people who are predisposed toward being bigendered and bisexual. In this scenario, someone who feels comfortable identifying outside the male/female gender binary, expressing combinations of both femininity and masculinity ... may falsely assume that their "bi" inclinations represent a natural state that is present in all other people. From this "bi-sexist" perspective, people who identify exclusively as either female or male, feminine or masculine ... are assumed to have developed such preferences as the result of being duped by binary gender norms and socialization. This view has also led to the creation of another oppositional binary of sorts, pitting those transgender people who identify outside the gender binary (and who are therefore presumed to challenge gender norms) against transsexuals (who are accused of supporting the gender status quo by transitioning to their identified sex).
Serano warns against the discrimination that may be implicit in "such arguments--that bi-gendered and genderqueer people are more 'radical' or 'queer' than transsexuals..." Her argument is balanced, because she also argues against privileging single-gender-identified people like me over the ambiguously gendered; in other words, she argues for doing away with all such notions of a queer pecking order that privileges any one tendency over the others. I strongly agree with her.

I fully accept the validity of androgyny for those who need it, I just don't want it being used against my womanhood. Apologizing again for my totally self-centered point of view.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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RebeccaFog

It's okay, Hypatia,

   We have no intention of assaulting your womanhood.  We have no qualms, however, concerning assaulting your refrigerator.   ;D

   I believe that the ambiguously gendered here on this site entirely respect the condition of totality in those who are female or male.  We are only trying to understand ourselves.

   I understand how hard you are working on your transition and you have no need to apologize about being self centered.  The very nature of transitioning requires a great amount of concentration due to the necessity to keep your eye on the goal while taking each small step to get you there.  Probably like walking a tightrope across an extremely windy canyon.

   I hope you have some moments of true peace in your journey.


Rebis
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katia

Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(
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katia

Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 06:56:51 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?

yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)

Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(

my honesty scares you?  i know i'm blunt but i'm honest.  i seldom sugar coat my opinions so i'd better keep them to myself.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:00:18 AM
Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 06:56:51 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 06:26:50 AM
Quote from: tay
Why do you fear explaining your reasoning? Are you incapable of phrasing a criticism politely?
yea i'm incapable of phrasing a criticism politely.  sad, innit? ::)
Knock it off, Katia, you're scaring me.  :'(
my honesty scares you?  i know i'm blunt but i'm honest.  i seldom sugar coat my opinions so i'd better keep them to myself.
No, my Dear, your avatar scares me.
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katia

what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D

   I don't mind strong or mysterious women.  But, at first glance, your avatar is dark.

   I would rather see 7 of 9 before being humanized than see Pam Anderson.  I like strong woman and they don't need to be human, just not... dark.
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Hypatia

Thanks, Rebia. Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I went for
"I accept Androgyne as a gender alternative."

Because my transition has been proceeding so slowly, and because physically I wasn't the most promising material to womanize in the first place, my appearance has generally been de facto genderqueer or androgyne, even though I don't identify that way. So to just be able to live my daily life out there, I necessarily sympathized with the problems of androgynes. Now that I've begun passing, I'm more focused on my ultimate goal. But I will always support the rights of androgynes to be who they are. Even though I'm not one.

Couldn't help noticing that all of those who went against androgyny are of the same type. Wondering what that says about us as a people...
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: Ell on August 18, 2007, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: Rebis on August 17, 2007, 07:12:59 AM
Quote from: Katia on August 17, 2007, 07:05:16 AM
what's wrong with it?  she's a woman, isn't she?  would you rather see pam anderson on my avatar?  >:D
I don't mind strong or mysterious women.  But, at first glance, your avatar is dark.

  I would rather see 7 of 9 before being humanized than see Pam Anderson. I like strong woman and they don't need to be human, just not... dark.

R, i've been scared by some of Katia's avatars, too. but i like this one. it reminds me of one of the underworld characters from the Throne of Bhaal.

-ell

It's not Katia's avatars you should fear, young one, it's Katia herself that you should fear.  >:D
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Rachael

katia is a goff, and therefore, in my good books :D
R :police:
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Hypatia

Quote from: Ell on August 19, 2007, 07:06:04 PMthere is physical IS, certainly. is it unreasonable to suggest that IS may also exist on a purely psychological basis?
Certainly. That seems like simple common sense.
That's my reason for accepting androgyny's validity (in other individuals, not myself, I'm very much a woman).
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

Sophia

I accept androgyny because I have a pretty good background in biology and by consequence a mediocre background in neurology and through personal interest an adequate background in psychology.

Its not just the knowledge of IS people for me, but the fact that more and more neurologists are realizing that neurological disorders and abnormal functionality is not black and white. Disorders come in varying degrees with varying symptoms.

OCD can range from extreme germaphobia to simple compulsions to touch a doorknob before leaving the house.

Attention Deficit Disorder can involve hyperfocusing (the compulsion to focus so totally on something that nothing else is registered in one's mind) defocusing (a loss of any particular focus and a spreading of mental resources so thin one appears scattered) or blendings of both.

Its unsurprising to me that GID would have varying degrees of symptoms (after all some people are crossdressers and others need to transition to avoid suicide). The fact that the gender binary is a human construct for the most part (gender expression and gender roles are entirely made by cultural and social ties and make up the majority of our binary, whereas gender identity and sex are the only truly biological aspects and make up very little in terms of real differences) makes me disinclined to believe that the human mind is constrained by it.

And quite seriously, the instincts that determine body structure do not only work on our sex based features. BIID, for instance, is a disorder that makes one feel that their body should be missing one (or more depending on the symptoms) limbs. Its oftentimes one leg (left maybe can't remember) and just below the knee. However their are very likely to be variations on that.

Its very likely, in my slightly educated opinion, that BIID, GID, and a few other disorders all arise from similar parts of the brain and similar instincts to keep our bodies intact and recognize injury (change of state from natural state, based off visual and tactile clues).

Why wouldn't there be a variation of body instincts that stated that someone should have a mix of male and female characteristics or no defining sex characteristics at all? Its not like the brain is going to follow cultural views or physicality exactly, after all if it did, mtfs and ftms wouldn't exist.

I guess I just see it as horribly unrealistic to not accept androgynes, especially if one has learned a bit of bio and such. And for transsexuals especially, our attitude of dismissal and lack of acceptance is really very ironic.

After all if someone called mtf and ftm a cop out (Real quote: "You just don't like the gender roles and are escaping your body form. You can take any role you want, why would you want to change your body? Its such a cop out"), or claimed we were just in a phase (Real Quote: "You'll get over this when you figure out that gender roles don't matter and you can wear bras and stuff whenever you want. Trust me its just a phase. Don't do something irreversible.") we'd react really badly wouldn't we?

Hell I've had a few people make the claim that transsexuality is entirely gender expression, and I've seen us react like rabid weasels to that. Yet we find ourselves able to claim that androgynes are just a facet of gender expression? How does that explain the feelings of pain they have about their bodies that match exactly our feelings of pain? The parts that cause the hurt and the solution to that hurt may be different, but the basic system is still the same.

I guess maybe you need to be around androgynes to truly get it. Which is funny because cisgendered people often don't get mtf and ftm until they know someone with it. Shocking bunch of parallels isn't it?

Is it so hard to put ourselves in the shoes of the androgynes and realize how much we hurt them with these things we say? Is it so hard to see the irony of our views when we're going through the exact same thing, just with different solutions and slightly different variations?

The worst part is, Androgyne isn't a "safe alternative" to work out gender issues. Its in many ways even worse then anything we can go through.

Admittedly the feelings of dysphoria may be slightly less for many, based on the fact that bigendered people are happy at times with their bodies (or happy with some of the characteristics), female nuetrois can easily pretend that they lack genitals, and male nuetrois have a strong lack of sexual characteristics everywhere but the genitals (and can get hair removal without need of therapist and such).

However, the sad fact is, for the mass majority of androgynes there is no viable methodology for eliminating their dysphoria. We have the hope of a solution to cling to. The androgynes have nothing. They also receive even less social acceptance then we do as the gender binary is strongly enforced in society. So social pressures we claim to be struck with are nothing compared to the vicious treatment androgynes receive (especially the nuetrois, as some of the bigendered can use crossdressing to reduce the pain)

They have it far worse off then we do, and pretending otherwise is simply engaging in foolish pissing contests for the emo prize.
  •  

Hypatia

Nuetrois is an unfamiliar term to me. All I know is, in French it means 'nude three'.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  


Pica Pica

have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.
  •  

chillin

Speaking as an androgyne I never even knew about the terms "Androgny" until a few months ago. I once thought I was the opposite sex in some way or another but I definately wasn;t fully TS(MTF) so being an androgyn proviodes me a common ground of labeling myself both male and female which I think I am. I think I communciate like female but i am a male externally(that explains my new avator.) I have thought about HRT(I guess being a pre-op TS)but its not for me because I kinda like who I am although its hard to live that way. I don;t want to change the way I think completely although I have heavily thought about FFS and I have thought about a voice change to along with the FFS. I'm going to see where the path leads me.....
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Sophia

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*
  •  

Pica Pica

Quote from: Sophia on August 23, 2007, 12:22:24 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*

Probably not, wouldn't want it to be, but it may add more shape to discussions.
  •  

Sophia

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 23, 2007, 02:03:03 PM
Quote from: Sophia on August 23, 2007, 12:22:24 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 21, 2007, 06:46:41 AM
have a look at the androgyne GID thread, brings up some interesting inconsistencies.

Well there's interesting inconsistencies in GID level and symptoms for mtf and ftm transsexuals (and past a certain threshold you hit mtf ftm crossdressers and such).

I'd imagine that it would be intriguing from an outsider's viewpoint, but I doubt it would lead to any conclusive evidence of nonexistence of androgynes, or a lesser degree of existence.

*shrug*

Probably not, wouldn't want it to be, but it may add more shape to discussions.

I'll give it a look. Maybe we can make add an octagon to the discussion

[/bad puns]

:D
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