Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 08:37:36 PM
This is true too, lol I had to laugh and look back at my journal from when I was 12 or 13:

"Since I started gaining weight, I just stopped wanting to talk to people anymore.. slowly but surely stopped talking to basically all of my friends.. . . . Well It's amazing how much people care about your weight and how you look. If ignorance were fatal then probably everyone would be dead by now. Soo yep, I'm homeschooling now... I just hate going places. I have like no self esteem, not to mention like no friends. I hate myself..."

I have struggled with binging/purging/starving/extreme diets/harmful exercising since then... still never felt like I lost enough weight even though I did get to a normal helahty range eventually. But always gonna struggle with it.

It was like this for me, too. I became overweight around age 5, and stayed that way until I was 18. I went back again between 20-22. I don't think a day went by that I felt like less of a human being. Invisible and yet not. Being in the role of a guy with extremely effeminate concerns didn't help, either -- I was always worrying about stuff like skin, clothes, hair, etc.

I lost weight when I got a little older, and started to get a lot of attention. Hormones have only helped that, frustratingly, and I get a lot more commentary than I'd care for at work; people often feel the need to remind me my male self is attractive (some times very creepily). I'm frequently told I'm beautiful. Normally this would be nice, but I don't care for the persona, and that sort of commentary only serves as a reminder.

The duality of it frustrates me to no end. It's so unjust. It also scares the crap out of me. I remember what it was like for people to pass me over, and now I know what it is to have to do next to nothing to hold people's attention. My female persona is unpassable, even if it isn't necessarily homely. I'm worried that FFS won't leave me beautiful, despite being very confident it'll leave me passable. Not for the sake of vanity, but because I've tasted what it is to feel desired, to feel unjudged, on so many levels, and I deeply fear going back. I hate that this sort of thing matters. The lack of control and uncertainty is the most suffocating part.

Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.

i think there is some truth to this at least from my point of view. I'm not stealth or full-time by traditional defintions but for the last month or so no one believes I'm a man when I actively try to pass as one. A lot of this has to do with the warm weather and being unable to hide my body. But whatever the reason, like this girl came up and just started talking to me, and she was really pretty and had on this super cute flowered print shift dress, and she started talking about my jacket and if I was too hot and I just like froze. This has been happening to be with some regularity lately too. I was with my ex walking around and this other girl came up to me and was like is that your BF, you're lucky he's really hot. And I was just...frozen. I managed to squek out that we broke up and are doing some FWB thing and she was like "I liked the way you put that. Put him in his place." I don't know, I may be totally misinterpeting what you're saying but I just feel like I was walking along the water and all the sudden hit a trench and now I'm drowning. Well, that's a little dramatic actually. But I just have such low self esteem I cant imagine why these girls are talking to me and want to be my friend so bad. Thios other girl was all let me get your number and we'll go shopping and was all about me...in like a friend way. I think she was lonely. But all these girls are really pretty and did they lose their ugly friend or something and im the replacement? IDK. But these girls have no idea im trans and I just dont get it.

Maybe that's not what you meant at all but I just feel so overwhelmed and all the sudden it's like this crown of acceptance has been placed on my head and like...congrats...you've been accepted to girl world. Stay for awhile. Wait stay forever. For whatever reason, somehow I think I've gotten pretty looking or at least have big boobs and I feel like I have done this all for the looks. I had a friend and she was great but she moved and now I just feel so alone. Plus, my ex's roommate is like jealous of me or something. That's what he says. She has some kind of obssesion with my high priced makeup. Or my makeup skills in general and this just compounds all my other issues. She thinks I'm this superficial, know it all stuck up bitch. I may be superficial but Im hardly a bitch to this woman. I'm practically a doormat.

Sorry, that prolly didn't make any sense.

Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 09:43:29 PM

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.


Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.

Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c

(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)

Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.

Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
Well to be fair it is kinda bleak. I mean trans women usually lose a lot a lot to go thru their transitions and they should probably expect that it's going to be that way. I was actually thinking about it today. It's really hard for trans women to completely assimilate. Even a long time in it's super normal to struggle forming or keeping basic satisfying relationships and pretty much anything. Part of that is being trans, a lot of that is definitely also living as a woman. Who may or may not be able to live up to standards of beauty, who barely even have value as an object and yeah, may suddenly have no worth to so many people. It's just really sad for cis and trans women alike. :c

(not saying there aren't successful, happy trans women, just statistically it is not a good demographic to be in if you can avoid it...)

Kind of ironically I sometimes think it's even harder for stealth trans women than openly trans women. Cuz if you're stealth you're just living like a cis woman with extra internal problems.


Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).

I think it just comes down to why you want to change your gender. If it an innate reason that really has no other option you just deal with all the imperfections and live the life that will complete you.

Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 09:47:11 PM
It was like this for me, too. I became overweight around age 5, and stayed that way until I was 18. I went back again between 20-22. I don't think a day went by that I felt like less of a human being. Invisible and yet not. Being in the role of a guy with extremely effeminate concerns didn't help, either -- I was always worrying about stuff like skin, clothes, hair, etc.

I lost weight when I got a little older, and started to get a lot of attention. Hormones have only helped that, frustratingly, and I get a lot more commentary than I'd care for at work; people often feel the need to remind me my male self is attractive (some times very creepily). I'm frequently told I'm beautiful. Normally this would be nice, but I don't care for the persona, and that sort of commentary only serves as a reminder.

The duality of it frustrates me to no end. It's so unjust. It also scares the crap out of me. I remember what it was like for people to pass me over, and now I know what it is to have to do next to nothing to hold people's attention. My female persona is unpassable, even if it isn't necessarily homely. I'm worried that FFS won't leave me beautiful, despite being very confident it'll leave me passable. Not for the sake of vanity, but because I've tasted what it is to feel desired, to feel unjudged, on so many levels, and I deeply fear going back. I hate that this sort of thing matters. The lack of control and uncertainty is the most suffocating part.

Yeah... my body image just destroyed me. I missed middle and high school, basically any socialization in that period, never got a job, only just going to start college now at 22. And frankly that is terrifying. Before, My fear was so low level, it would render me completely non-functional over the most basic things. Could barely hold my eyes open, the world itself was blinding. The only reason I got to this point is cause i was pretty enough to make a guy want to baby me enough that I could start to have a life and start healing. It still doesn't go away ever. I can't see myself in the freaking mirror. I don't have an honest idea of what i even look like because I can't see the reality. people constantly tell me i'm pretty and I never ever feel that way. Ever. People tel me i'm thin and I think no, I'm enormous. No amount of clothes, accessories, treatments, serums, lotions or potions can help it, but I desperately look for the next solution anyway. I don't ever feel comfortable in my own skin and it's been such a long fought battle to feel able to just exist in public. Instead I just destroy my body more and more cause that's all that feels good. I objectify myself cause it feels good to know somebody wants anything from me at all.

All I can say is don't think it is gonna go away with any amount of FFS or anything like that. I think you have to fix it from within but i am just not there yet. Even today, I went out and my appearance was all that i thought about all day, just always so uncomfortable in myself, and that has nothing to do with fear of not passing because I accepted a long time ago i always pass.. It's all I have ever known to think about.

Sorry you have to deal with this stuff too... it's just awful. I mean not everyone gets as crazy about it as me but... I wouldn't wish these problems on anyone. I think I just still feel disgusting from the inside, which also has more tl it than the weight issues.

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 10:05:22 PM
Eeeee well honestly, yeah I hate to admit it as not to discourage young ladies here, but yeah honestly, it's bleak. Being female isn't the greatest position to be in at the best of times. And I'd really only advise it for those who must or have no choice. I mean as much lip service as we give, being a girl still has lower status than being a boy. In every part of the world. Of course I don't believe women are lower status (I have a mother!), but the world does (and the world's a fool).

Yeah ... when I sit there trying to explain to my bf why i would want to detransition even though being a boy is so wrong for me in almost every way, it just comes down to that nothing much about being a woman makes me happier, esp as a lesser woman. For thsoe people who have that, I think it's great, but it needs to be pretty strong to be worth it in my opinion. Really the only plus for me is that I can be myself more and I can be objectified (because if i had to be treated like a human being I'd probably be in a homeless shelter, not that basically living as a pet is glamorous either.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 06, 2014, 10:04:14 PM
i think there is some truth to this at least from my point of view. I'm not stealth or full-time by traditional defintions but for the last month or so no one believes I'm a man when I actively try to pass as one. A lot of this has to do with the warm weather and being unable to hide my body. But whatever the reason, like this girl came up and just started talking to me, and she was really pretty and had on this super cute flowered print shift dress, and she started talking about my jacket and if I was too hot and I just like froze. This has been happening to be with some regularity lately too. I was with my ex walking around and this other girl came up to me and was like is that your BF, you're lucky he's really hot. And I was just...frozen. I managed to squek out that we broke up and are doing some FWB thing and she was like "I liked the way you put that. Put him in his place." I don't know, I may be totally misinterpeting what you're saying but I just feel like I was walking along the water and all the sudden hit a trench and now I'm drowning. Well, that's a little dramatic actually. But I just have such low self esteem I cant imagine why these girls are talking to me and want to be my friend so bad. Thios other girl was all let me get your number and we'll go shopping and was all about me...in like a friend way. I think she was lonely. But all these girls are really pretty and did they lose their ugly friend or something and im the replacement? IDK. But these girls have no idea im trans and I just dont get it.

Maybe that's not what you meant at all but I just feel so overwhelmed and all the sudden it's like this crown of acceptance has been placed on my head and like...congrats...you've been accepted to girl world. Stay for awhile. Wait stay forever. For whatever reason, somehow I think I've gotten pretty looking or at least have big boobs and I feel like I have done this all for the looks. I had a friend and she was great but she moved and now I just feel so alone. Plus, my ex's roommate is like jealous of me or something. That's what he says. She has some kind of obssesion with my high priced makeup. Or my makeup skills in general and this just compounds all my other issues. She thinks I'm this superficial, know it all stuck up bitch. I may be superficial but Im hardly a bitch to this woman. I'm practically a doormat.

Sorry, that prolly didn't make any sense.

Well that must be hard for you, it is not exactly what I meant though, I meant at least if people see you as a trans woman and don't accept you, a part of them is accepting you as a male and extending you some amount of privilege that comes with that. Like they can roll their eyes about your gender but they might still trust you to fix their car or something (I don't know random example sorry lol) anyway you'll be more than your appearance then.

If it helps (sorry i edit my posts so much, kinda spacy) at least nobody will ever think you are weird as a pretty girl? Pretty much no matter how you behave. The girl club isn't very high pressure in that sense.

Quote from: sad panda on April 06, 2014, 10:16:53 PM
Yeah... my body image just destroyed me. I missed middle and high school, basically any socialization in that period, never got a job, only just going to start college now at 22. And frankly that is terrifying. Before, My fear was so low level, it would render me completely non-functional over the most basic things. Could barely hold my eyes open, the world itself was blinding. The only reason I got to this point is cause i was pretty enough to make a guy want to baby me enough that I could start to have a life and start healing. It still doesn't go away ever. I can't see myself in the freaking mirror. I don't have an honest idea of what i even look like because I can't see the reality. people constantly tell me i'm pretty and I never ever feel that way. Ever. People tel me i'm thin and I think no, I'm enormous. No amount of clothes, accessories, treatments, serums, lotions or potions can help it, but I desperately look for the next solution anyway. I don't ever feel comfortable in my own skin and it's been such a long fought battle to feel able to just exist in public. Instead I just destroy my body more and more cause that's all that feels good. I objectify myself cause it feels good to know somebody wants anything from me at all.

All I can say is don't think it is gonna go away with any amount of FFS or anything like that. I think you have to fix it from within but i am just not there yet. Even today, I went out and my appearance was all that i thought about all day, just always so uncomfortable in myself, and that has nothing to do with fear of not passing because I accepted a long time ago i always pass.. It's all I have ever known to think about.

I know. I know it's probably not going to go away. I don't know if it ever will; it's been a part of my design for too long. I talk to my best friend about it all the time, and that helps. We became fast friends 8 years ago talking about stuff like this, and guys, and what it means to be a woman (she's cis) ... beauty is a big part of what we talk about, even now. After all these years. At least every week, often every day. I think we always will, it's that important. It's that suffocating.

The things you say about your body image sound so incredibly familiar to me. I know there isn't much that can be said, only that I feel awful every time I know someone else is going through it, too. All I can do is share. :/

I'm not sure I totally understand where you're coming from on gender. Is it that you were MtF and detransitioned? If that's the case, that makes me sad. It could be the other way around and it'd make me just as sad. I think about letting go of transition all of the time .. but no matter how I think about it, it's always terrifying, and feels like it promises pain either way. If both sides are going to hurt, I may as well stick to the one I'm drawn to. I hope the one you pick is the one that's going to make you happier, I really do.

Quote from: FA on April 06, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Then it's good to talk about it I didn't mean you were giving me a complex w that post I was just agreeing that it sucks. This stuff is absolutely damaging.


Thanks for that sweetie. Sometimes I worry that in talking about this, I'm painting a bleak picture of womanhood for the young and new ladies here. And I really don't mean to do that. That's the last thing I want. We hear often on this site how it is being a man and the expectations surrounding that. But rarely what it's like for a girl. Probably part of that is guys (ftms) just don't talk much about that kind of stuff. And I certainly wouldn't have early in transition. But I'm well past that stage and really have nothing to prove anymore. And a lot of baggage to drop. So... yeah.

The learning curve for being female is surprisingly high for me. I just do not get too hung up on appearance. Looking GOOD is fun for me, no matter the gender. Yes, it is more ingrained in female, Western culture than male... looking good. To look GOOD, let alone female, can be a challenge for a MTF.

Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 07:46:53 PM
I think the fundamental argument FA is making isn't about ethics or self-acceptance, but about the realization women have that beauty is power, power equals success, and success equals happiness.

We can steel our own minds, but we can't change that of others. The world is not a beautiful place where only good people hold power. Frequently, apathetic or terrible people hold power -- and to those people, a woman's beauty often does matter. Aside from people making conscious decisions based on beauty, there is also a common, subconscious edge when establishing friendships (and thus connections), landing employment, mediating disagreements, succeeding in deals, and so on and so forth. The benefits for sexual partners and vanity are really just icing. Beauty extends as a weight to all facets of life. No matter your mindset, you cannot change the world's influence over you -- only how it makes you feel, and in the end, we're only human when it comes to the amount of zen we hold over our lives.

The only thing I'm really in disagreement with is the seeming exclusionary clause for MtF. Not all people assigned male at birth were ignorant of the gripping claws of beauty until womanhood came knocking. There are some of us who have been there right from the beginning, for one reason or another (most probably unusual social circumstances). Anyone who is overweight or has a deformity probably understands this very well, too.

I know that for me growing up with a deformity has absolutely made me aware of the looks = worth mentality that seems to be everywhere. I went through several surgeries starting at age 4. All of this was in the hopes of achieving some level of "normal". As a child I was told that eventually the doctors might be able to "fix" my eye, but I would have to live with it for the time being.

That's were I had to learn by experience and from my mother who a role model for me. I inherited neurofibromatosis from her. In her case her entire body is covered with thousands of pea to grape sized tumours. It was by her example that I was able to learn that you can be valued by others as a human being in spite of your appearance. It was by watching others that I learned that the "popularity" held by the attractive girls and alpha males was often shallow and fleeting.

I had the benefit of knowing that the people I called friends truly did value me, and why it's not surprising that they stuck by me through my transition. While undoubtedly my male gender role as a child and young adult spared me many elements of the caustic nature of beauty culture, neurofibromatosis made it so I had to overcome it anyway.

As I've started to feel social pressure to care about my appearance as a woman, I've come to understand how so many women end up with such a horrible self body image. I've been grateful that I do have the understanding and strength from my own experiences to fall back on. 

Yup.

So well put.

Vanity can indeed make a woman. So can good genetics. Being born a cis female is a great start...

STRENGTH can make a woman too. Belief. Being.

Quote from: Sybil on April 06, 2014, 10:57:30 PM
I know. I know it's probably not going to go away. I don't know if it ever will; it's been a part of my design for too long. I talk to my best friend about it all the time, and that helps. We became fast friends 8 years ago talking about stuff like this, and guys, and what it means to be a woman (she's cis) ... beauty is a big part of what we talk about, even now. After all these years. At least every week, often every day. I think we always will, it's that important. It's that suffocating.

The things you say about your body image sound so incredibly familiar to me. I know there isn't much that can be said, only that I feel awful every time I know someone else is going through it, too. All I can do is share. :/

I'm not sure I totally understand where you're coming from on gender. Is it that you were MtF and detransitioned? If that's the case, that makes me sad. It could be the other way around and it'd make me just as sad. I think about letting go of transition all of the time .. but no matter how I think about it, it's always terrifying, and feels like it promises pain either way. If both sides are going to hurt, I may as well stick to the one I'm drawn to. I hope the one you pick is the one that's going to make you happier, I really do.

Well I decided for sure that I want to detransition. I can't in reality right now because basically I don't have that level of control over my life...

It is definitely painful either way but I guess to me nothing is as painful as being a trans woman. Of all the reasons I would have initially listed as why I want to transition, none of them gave me much more than a very fleeting glimmer of happiness. But then, I never had the social experience of being trans. Socially I was a cis boy one day and a cis girl the next. I can identify the exact minute when that change happened. So... I was pretty immediately confronted with the fact that it didn't make me happy and there was no mystery in that, i mean the whole point is to be accepted everywhere as a girl and that was behind me. But I was stuck then too so I tried to convince myself it would get better. And it did, well i mean it only got easier... no matter how much better it gets it doesn't make me happier. Detransition is sad in a lot of ways to me, and the thought of being a boy and suddenly being made responsible for myself is scary but I have to be honest about that fundamental reality that I don't think I can ever be happy (at least for/about myself) this way....

That's just me though, i don't wanna generalize to much bc everyone is unique. I know that hella more girls suffer with these mental health issues than guys, but that doesn't mean all of them do by any means. And it doesn't mean no girls are happy with where they are. I could probably be happyish as a cis girl in the same life but being trans is personally just one too many reasons to hate myself.

I hope that your experience with transition is different than mine and that it gives you everything you want from it.

Quote from: Tori on April 07, 2014, 05:42:27 AM
Yup.

So well put.

Vanity can indeed make a woman. So can good genetics. Being born a cis female is a great start...

STRENGTH can make a woman too. Belief. Being.

Mmm if you think this is about vanity, then I don't think you've gotten what I've been trying to say. I, and many cis women are vain because we've been taught since birth that our value lies in our looks. Especially if we happen to be good looking or have a decent body. I wish I could put into better words how awful and limiting this is. To be valued first by your outsides - something you don't have much control over and really can't change. Something you're fighting a losing battle every day with - flesh. Deteriorating flesh. This is why eight year olds are developing eating disorders and 16 year olds are getting boob jobs. Because women grow up knowing that to all intents and purposes, they ARE their bodies.

Nobody talks about it and it makes people uncomfortable. A lot of lip service is paid to the opposite message of empowerment and being yourself, and 'girls can be anything' etc. But that's largely what it is - lip service. Little girls aren't stupid. We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't.

"To live in a culture where women are routinely naked where men aren't is to learn inequality in little ways all day long" - Naomi Wolf

And if it were just society, maybe we could get over it. But it's not. We hear first and foremost about our looks from our families, friends, and lovers. We hear it at church every Sunday as little girls. "Such a pretty girl." "She looks like a doll in that Easter dress." "What beautiful hair!" We may be praised for other things, but first and foremost for our appearance.

And then we go through puberty at 11 and really hear it. We know what the world values us for. And that on a very real level that nobody wants to admit (because it is awful and uncomfortable) we are things. Not people.

It hurts. It really does. I wish I had words for how much it hurts. For the damage it's done to me. But I don't.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 09:19:18 AM
Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with how you are presenting this. You obvioulsy did not enjoy your childhood experiences, but as you turned out be FTM, is that really a surprise? The flipside is that I, as an MTF, did not exactly enjoy my pre-transition life either and so my view may be as slanted (and wrong) as yours.

We may both be guilty of projection - viewing things through our pain and expecting others to feel it too. Many do not feel the pain and angst we do.

Men have a cr*p time of it too. To me it was obvious that women held many of the trump cards in life. As a man I was assumed to be a rapist / murderer / sex pest / pervert / etc simply because I was a man. One example - I once picked up my daughter from nursery and I got taken to the side and interrogated whilst women who did not know the staff interrogating me simply wandered past to pick up kids. Women are not child molesters....

If a woman accuses a man of something it can wreck his life. There have been cases of slighted women making accusations against a man and the mud sticks. He is tainted for life. It very, very rarely happens the other way round. Women are trusted more because they are thought to be more caring and empathetic.

As a man I was expected to "become something", my career would define me and everything about me. It would be my life. I was expected to throw myself into it 24/7/365 and all other thing where subjugated to it. I was expected to "become" a lawyer or an engineer or an accountant. People asked me what I was, not who I was. It was as dehumanizing as being a "sex object", it was just less obvious.

When I expressed wanting to spend time with my family, it counted against me. "You do not have time for that" I was told. Basically, men are little more than self-propelled hammers or spanners. They are expected to subjugate everything to their careers.

You rail against beauty. Fair enough, it is overdone, no doubt about it. But how about watching yourself degrade into an ugliness so profound that it is fascinating? Of sweating profusely and smelling stale even when you wash? Of watching your skin degrade into a bristly, leathery, hairy covering? What about being dragged about by an unsleeping libido that means you are always having to force yourself to stay under control in case you lose it? What about the casual violence in male society? The emotional numbness? What about the constant battle for dominance through "doing someone else down"?

Being a bloke is no picnic and I for one am very, very glad to be leaving it behind forever.

I'm sorry but all this smacks of some real insensitivity towards trans women in general, especially the what you put WE FA. As in a WE that does not include a ME. Be a man and be my size and see how far ya get. Cause ya aint getting very ->-bleeped-<-ing far. If you're under 5'6 and a man, you wont have  job, you wont get laid, and if you add being femme because you are a ->-bleeped-<-ing hermaphrodite to the mix, you get to be beat up and put in male prisons and ->-bleeped-<-ing tag teamed. Now what that means. Its when two guys come up to you grab your arms, force them against the wall, and screw you. Its a real ->-bleeped-<-ing hoot. So thanks for making me feel more alone than ever.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
I'm sorry but all this smacks of some real insensitivity towards trans women in general, especially the what you put WE FA. As in a WE that does not include a ME. To site here and act like girls in the western world are just objects and nothing more when every single statistic says otherwise is a bit much. Be a man and be my size and see how far ya get. Cause ya aint getting very ->-bleeped-<-ing far. If you're under 5'6 and a man, you wont have  job, you wont get laid, and if you add being femme because you are a ->-bleeped-<-ing hermaphrodite to the mix, you get to be beat up and put in male prisons and ->-bleeped-<-ing tag teamed. Now what that means. Its when two guys come up to you grab your arms, force them against the wall, and ->-bleeped-<- you. Its a real ->-bleeped-<-ing hoot. So thanks for making me feel more alone than ever.

<sigh> I really don't think you get anything I said. I am NOT saying men's lives are a picnic. I know men who have been raped in prison and such. Men who were raped as children. This isn't some kind of one upmanship here.
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.

I don't think you got what I said. I don't like being called a man and told I'm not a woman. I'm not a man, in a very real genetic way. But thanks for doubling down.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.

Because that it how you present it. You said ...

"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "

.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 10:53:07 AM
I don't think you got what I said. I don't like being called a man and told I'm not a woman. I'm not a man, in a very real genetic way. But thanks for doubling down.

OMG I did not call you a man! I did not tell you you're not a woman! Read what I said. I'm just talking about the environment young girls face growing up. And the culture women live in. And the harm it does. This includes you, as you're a woman.

Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 10:56:47 AM

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 10:50:29 AM
But honestly, why do the hardships men or people born male face always get dragged into this? Talking about what it's like for women doesn't mean men or people born male have it easy. Not at all.

Because that it how you present it. You said ...

"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "

.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.

That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.

I'm sorry then. I guess I took it the wrong way. I do agree with pretty much evrything you're saying, BTW.