Well, you are anything but a plant here.

You're a valuable and respected person here.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 12:37:23 PM
And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.

Yes, it is. I don't think I'm pretty by any standard but guys apparently like me a lot and all these pretty girls all the sudden want to be my friend and it is really bizarre to me for someone who has basically spent the majority of their life being beat up and outcasted. I've had a lot of female friends but they came into my life situation-ally. Women just want to talk to me now for some reason and I am afraid of women sometimes, especially pretty ones. Like if they found out, if they knew kind of thing. I thought I was just a total freak but I looked it up and a lot of women have the same problem, ie being afriad of pretty women, mainly groups of them.

As far as men, The other day there was guy who would just not stop staring at my chest and every time I looked over, he cast his eyes down. but then when I looked away, his head moved right back into place. It feels good to pass so well now, especially since I really haven't done anything other than take hormones, but this same guy was of the type who would have wanted to beat me up before. I could just tell my the way he carried himself. And it's not just him, all the sudden men seem to be going out of their way to talk to me. Some guy came up to me and asked me if I was alright and if I needed anything. He was a worker for the METRO/SEPTA, but no one ever did anything close to that before. I live in a not so nice part of town where thee are a lot prostitutes and every day some guy asks me if I'm working. Prostitutes around here don't dress the way they do on TV. Maybe they don't anywhere. I have no idea. I only know how it is Philly.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.

And I will counter you by saying that not every woman feels that way. I know many women my own age (40s/50s) who are definitely past the teen/20/30 beauty stage and they still have confidence in themselves and their appearance. One trick they can do is to use their self-confidence to pull men. Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she "has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"

Many, perhaps even most women, get over the "beauty" thing. As they say "You do what you can with what you've got". I do not think the cause of your distress, the objectification of women, is felt as deeply or as often by other women because it is not typical of the cis-women in whose circles I now move.

Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 01:19:41 PM

So, sorry if i'm being nosy here, but does it hurt more because it feels like you escaped it and you're sad for those who won't?

Or because a part of you still can't/didn't/couldn't escape it? Your expiration date.

Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.

Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 01:41:18 PM

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:08:58 PM
I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.

And I will counter you by saying that not every woman feels that way. I know many women my own age (40s/50s) who are definitely past the teen/20/30 beauty stage and they still have confidence in themselves and their appearance. One trick they can do is to use their self-confidence to pull men. Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she "has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"

Many, perhaps even most women, get over the "beauty" thing. As they say "You do what you can with what you've got". I do not think the cause of your distress, the objectification of women, is felt as deeply or as often by other women because it is not typical of the cis-women in whose circles I now move.

Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.

And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.

Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 12:27:06 PM
Yeah but how many of them have female friends they don't see as a potential source of sex and actually care about?

Hi Panda,

There are jerks, in all races, religions, sexual orientations, genders, etc.  These people stand out in our memories because they are so obnoxious.  Unfortunately people generalize entire groups based on the actions of the jerks.

I know many men who have true female friends and don't think of them as a potential source of sex and actually care about them.

One thing that has really encouraged me lately is all the positive comments transitioning people on this board have made about their family member, friends and co-workers accepting them.  Sure there's still lots of negative stuff but I never imagined how many caring and kind people were out there.

Where am I going with this?  I don't know except that I would suggest for every jerk that has made your life miserable, there seems to be many good people too.

Lots of love,
Paige 

Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 01:41:18 PM
Men are attracted to powerful, self-assured women even if those women are not classically beautiful. Many a bloke will say that she "has something about her, 'cause she ain't good looking, but even so"

When did this happen? Do you know what the Salem Witch Trials were about. They were about land inheritance. All of, or most of, the accused witches had inherited or were set to inherit land. If they didn't do what was asked and tithe it to the church, they were a witch. And hung. Or thrown in the water with a boulder tied to them because if they floated they were a witch. if they didn't they weren't. But, of course, were dead.

Little has changed. You show me one man who would prefer a homely, but powerful woman over a demure, voluptuous pretty one. Why do you think Hillary Clinton was hated so much. cause she was smart and powerful. My mom is still mad at me for voting for Obama over her. Women are treated a lot better today then before the women's movement but to act like women aren't objectified in a way men simply aren't is a falsehood. And most women do feel distress when treated like or looked upon as an object. That's why there's this whole "End Bossy" campaign. There is a reason this campaign is happening. And it's because women are not alllowed to speak their mind without being called bossy or know it alls. My partner's (that's what he wants to call himself now) roommate talks to him all the time about me and says I'm this superficial know it all bitch. Why? Cause I talk about the economy with him and have the gall to sopeak intelligently. She is basically a woman who would love to go back to the 50s. She is a crazy person.

In fact, here is a case in point: this woman, who is 50, but looks older, though thinks she is 35, wanted to apply at a college bar. Now, there is nothing wrong with that. But james and I talked about it and think she's nuts. Who do you think this place wants working for them as a bartender? A nice, but crazy lady (she's nice to everyone but me cause I think she is in love with my man and she better back the eff off) or a, i don't know, 20-something petite girl with big boobs and a nice ass. We both know who they want. Now, woudl the same thing apply to a man in say a outside sales job. NO WAY.

Maybe things are different where you are from. I do not know.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.

Mmmh yeah, this is one thing I actually did notice changing. I used to stress so much over what I would be in the future, if i would ever have a degree or get a job, if I would ever feel independent or anything. After transition I mostly stopped thinking about that, because I accepted that it is not expected of me now. My first and current job was a fake job created to give me an allowance, and sometimes they think of something for me to help them with. It's a weird feeling and not really a good one. When my family asks about the job, bc as a boy they were always like, so are you gonna get a job soon?? I don't have the heart to tell them, no I'm actually a girl now, you don't get it, I'm not expected to do anything, I'm arm candy.

So I never mean to sound like I don't know what you are talking about. it's just really weird isn't it. :S

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 01:33:36 PM
Prostitutes around here don't dress the way they do on TV. Maybe they don't anywhere. I have no idea. I only know how it is Philly.

I don't think they do anywhere (in Hollywood maybe). I got this all the time walking and I was normally just dressed in men's flannels. One reason I was glad to get a car. 

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.

And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation.

Well, I was never a young woman, but I know that middle aged women talk about it because I have been there when they did.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 07, 2014, 01:58:48 PM
Maybe things are different where you are from. I do not know.

Maybe they are. Lucky me.

Quote from: provizora3 on April 07, 2014, 02:12:51 PM

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:52:30 PM
Well, like I said, I was only ever a young woman. So I don't know what it is to be an older woman. I just know the threat of it is felt deeply.

And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation.

Well, I was never a young woman, but I know that middle aged women talk about it because I have been there when they did.

Really? What did they say?

Quote from: Paige on April 07, 2014, 01:53:08 PM
Hi Panda,

There are jerks, in all races, religions, sexual orientations, genders, etc.  These people stand out in our memories because they are so obnoxious.  Unfortunately people generalize entire groups based on the actions of the jerks.

I know many men who have true female friends and don't think of them as a potential source of sex and actually care about them.

One thing that has really encouraged me lately is all the positive comments transitioning people on this board have made about their family member, friends and co-workers accepting them.  Sure there's still lots of negative stuff but I never imagined how many caring and kind people were out there.

Where am I going with this?  I don't know except that I would suggest for every jerk that has made your life miserable, there seems to be many good people too.

Lots of love,
Paige 

I don't know, I don't talk to many guys since I am kind of afraid of men for the most part but when I do I always feel this uncomfortable attention from them that obviously isn't about who I am or whatever we're talking about. Otherwise they don't seem to give me the time of day.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:10:15 PM
I don't think they do anywhere (in Hollywood maybe). I got this all the time walking and I was normally just dressed in men's flannels. One reason I was glad to get a car. 

Well, that's reassuring in a way. Not that it's good, but I felt like what the hell am I doing wrong that all the sudden these guys feel like they can ask me to suck their dick for cash. They obviously say "are you working?" But they might as well have said that. I basically passed out the gate and neve had a single problem, but something has changed in the last month or so where guys feel the need to stare at me, ask me if I need anything, pay for me, whatever. I was at a bar last week and lost some of my money cause im an airhead, and this guy jumped up and offered to pay for me. It's just very weird. Like I've been talking for the last month or so how I feel like i;ve been thrown into the deep end. And I know this is like the trans woman dream or something to not pass as male and always look female, but it's just so much. I'm just not used to this level of attention of the kind where people are both nice to me and want something.

Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 02:24:18 PM
I don't know, I don't talk to many guys since I am kind of afraid of men for the most part but when I do I always feel this uncomfortable attention from them that obviously isn't about who I am or whatever we're talking about. Otherwise they don't seem to give me the time of day.

Most times when I'm with James and he always has some guy he manages to befriend (he is just a very outgoing person) and they never say word one to me. I feel like they think I'm his property or something. Once, he was talking to someone and the guy started talking about me like i wasn't there. So who's this girl? She you're girlfriend. What's the deal? I'm just like, uh, I'm right here. Helllo!

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 11:39:21 AM
FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.

I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.

It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.

It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.


Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones (in RL) and you can't talk to men about these things.

I totally understand, I think. This is something that caused me to leave male friends behind and go it alone. There is a problem with the way males view females. I got to a point with my male friends that I couldn't take it any more. why do you think even after all the supposed awareness woman still struggle to get the same pay, I'm actually kind of surprised  that a lot of MTFs are so strongly defending their male conditioning as the superior half of the race. keep it up FA this forum severely lacks meaningful discussion. Also I'b like to say you can count me as a friend.

As I feel entirely feminine, and an innate woman, not by definitions outside of my self but that which defines me for me!

I am soft, and this isn't texture of embodiment but a quality of self within the realm of flowing life. Soft to the essence of emotion, as though I am vulnerable to the sharp grit of anger, deceit, and treachery.
I am fulfilled with mending the broken, nursing wounds of sorrow, giving love to darkness.
I am a flower amongst rock, tiny spark of life seeking light of life.
I am the seeker, yet not in knowledge but within hearts feel, the one who walks along the path of truth.
I am the tear streaming down the cheek for injustice and dreadful force of insecurity and guilt.
I am the mother, nursing my child with love which knows no bound.

I am a WOMAN!

Quote from: sad panda on April 07, 2014, 01:59:25 PM

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 01:42:42 PM
Both probably. Women learn to view themselves from a distance. Not as a live, acting, breathing thing. I knew I had a problem when I realized I was thinking of my goals and was more concerned with how I looked up there and how old I would be than what I was doing or had accomplished. I am still shocked that I am treated like a human being, and that my words are given so much weight and actually heard - when I am freaking ugly now! Makes me really uncomfortable and I don't know how to deal with it.

Mmmh yeah, this is one thing I actually did notice changing. I used to stress so much over what I would be in the future, if i would ever have a degree or get a job, if I would ever feel independent or anything. After transition I mostly stopped thinking about that, because I accepted that it is not expected of me now. My first and current job was a fake job created to give me an allowance, and sometimes they think of something for me to help them with. It's a weird feeling and not really a good one. When my family asks about the job, bc as a boy they were always like, so are you gonna get a job soon?? I don't have the heart to tell them, no I'm actually a girl now, you don't get it, I'm not expected to do anything, I'm arm candy.

So I never mean to sound like I don't know what you are talking about. it's just really weird isn't it. :S

It is weird. I don't think most people talk about it. It's really kind of an awkward thing. The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind). She's either in the game or she's not. And ironically, many 'successful women' were not. Sure you've seen a few whales waddling up to the diploma stand as valedictorian...

A man can always keep trying to prove himself. Even if he's ugly, fat, skinny, short, etc. Because he's more than just his body. His body is just a vehicle. A woman's body is the woman. (And no, I'm not the one that said this. Somebody famous did. I'll retrieve the quote).

So I guess this is where the feeling of unfairness really comes in. Because a man is judged mostly on what he does and not his body. And actions don't really depreciate. He can be ugly, fat, short, etc but can make up for it by doing. Women are not afforded this option. Sure, they can 'do'. But everyone knows it's not their 'doing' that matters. Sure, I'm not saying if some woman won the Nobel or cured cancer, she wouldn't be valued. But as a general rule...
Little girls aren't stupid. And they know where their value lies. If society hasn't told them, everyone else has. 'Such a pretty girl'. Her dress, her hair, her eyes. Not her personality. Not her mind. Being too smart is actually a detriment. And sure, it's not like males never suffer for not being attractive. But they grow up in a world where their appearance is secondary. For girls, it's primary. It is the most important thing about them. And they know it.

They may receive lip service about 'it's whats on the inside that counts'. But they recognize it as bull->-bleeped-<-. Because it is bull->-bleeped-<-. It is not 'what's on the inside that counts' for girls. Those same people telling her 'it's what's on the inside that counts' are busy praising her for her hair, her dress, her thinness, cautioning her not to eat that donut, etc. Little girls are not stupid.

I guess for part of it is coming from the polar opposite and living as a guy being expected to "just do".

From childhood it's about what I can do to earn lots of money and be "successful". And in adulthood being expected to always have the solutions and always having the answers.

In therapy a couple weeks ago we discussed how I can't bring myself to work in IT any more. The reason? I'm tired of being seen by most as a tool to fix their damn computer and nothing more. This would be drilled home even further when a co-worker's idea of a "personal" question was if I used a PC or a Mac.

I'm not implying that it is the same let alone worse as being viewed as a decorative piece of piece of property.

I guess what it really boils down to is the idea of being seen as the whole package. To be seen as a competent person worthy of being desired as well. When you spend enough time look at the other side of the fence and do finally cross over, what's been lacking in our lives becomes glaringly obvious.

Quote from: FA on April 07, 2014, 02:53:28 PM
It is weird. I don't think most people talk about it. It's really kind of an awkward thing. The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is.

Yeah, I had thought about this before but never could find the right words for it, but the way you put it is
perfect.

QuoteShe doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind). She's either in the game or she's not. And ironically, many 'successful women' were not. Sure you've seen a few whales waddling up to the diploma stand as valedictorian...

Yeah it's true that there are few self-made AND conventionally attractive women, whereas for men they're either unrelated or compliment each other.

QuoteA man can always keep trying to prove himself. Even if he's ugly, fat, skinny, short, etc. Because he's more than just his body. His body is just a vehicle. A woman's body is the woman. (And no, I'm not the one that said this. Somebody famous did. I'll retrieve the quote).

A while ago they were having this cheer competition here and all the girls doing that were everywhere. I remember my boyfriend seeing them and going, it's kind of sad, a lot of them aren't even attractive but they're just desperately trying to make themselves look as feminine as possible.

And i thought, yeah they are, obviously they're trying to not look like individuals with individual lives and personalities. They're cheerleaders.... But I mean, I'm guilty too. Because i don't want to look like me, I don't feel like that's right, i feel like i am supposed to look like every other girl in ads or whatever. A thing. My own boyfriend was saying he thought it wasn't appealing for them to wear all that excessive makeup and stuff but actually I was jealous of them. Because basically they were more viable than me and yeah, have more time.

QuoteSo I guess this is where the feeling of unfairness really comes in. Because a man is judged mostly on what he does and not his body. And actions don't really depreciate. He can be ugly, fat, short, etc but can make up for it by doing. Women are not afforded this option. Sure, they can 'do'. But everyone knows it's not their 'doing' that matters. Sure, I'm not saying if some woman won the Nobel or cured cancer, she wouldn't be valued. But as a general rule...
Little girls aren't stupid. And they know where their value lies. If society hasn't told them, everyone else has. 'Such a pretty girl'. Her dress, her hair, her eyes. Not her personality. Not her mind. Being too smart is actually a detriment. And sure, it's not like males never suffer for not being attractive. But they grow up in a world where their appearance is secondary. For girls, it's primary. It is the most important thing about them. And they know it.

They may receive lip service about 'it's whats on the inside that counts'. But they recognize it as bull->-bleeped-<-. Because it is bull->-bleeped-<-. It is not 'what's on the inside that counts' for girls. Those same people telling her 'it's what's on the inside that counts' are busy praising her for her hair, her dress, her thinness, cautioning her not to eat that donut, etc. Little girls are not stupid.

And then when you somehow get complimented on or noticed for anything else it doesn't feel good anyway because you know it doesn't mean anything to people and it's hard to feel like it means anything yourself.

Talk about walking on eggshells!

I've been following the thread, and with every additional post, I seem to relate less and less to some of the perspectives.

I am a woman. I live as a woman. I'm treated as a woman. But be darned if my value is decided by the rest of the world.

I'm very self confident, strong, assertive and self assured woman. These are qualities I earned, and gave myself. I didn't have them while living as a man. No, they are qualities that I earned as I transitioned. And now this innately shows in the way I interact with the world.

I'm not very pretty, though I am tall and slim. For that I get some attention from guys ( sexual ) and some attention from girls ( criticism or jealousy depending ). That's just par for the course and something I even do myself, at least to women. I'm always looking at women, for their fashion, style, and to compare myself to them. Men however, I totally ignore them. One plus of not being attracted to guys .

So with my worth decided by myself, I seem to have something that some of you may be missing. That elusive there's something about her quality mentioned before maybe?

@sad panda - Perhaps it would be very different for me if I were pretty like you. Maybe my worth would have been my appearance. I just don't know because that will never be my reality. And I'm sorry that you've not found peace or what you need in either gender roles. I hope you find the answers you need soon. xx

@FA - From a different perspective, I saw the way women were objectified by men. I hated it with the core of my being. Mostly because I was the very thing men were objectifying. But while that was happening, I also noticed the difference in women that were self confident and women that were insecure. God, I admired the self confident women! No man could alter their worth! They owned themselves and looked so secure in themselves. Anyway, I still struggle to understand your perspective. Yes, I think men do have life easier then women. It's just the way the world seems to work. But I don't see that generalisation as anything defining for each gender role. Just because the world thinks one way, doesn't make it so.

Quote from: SammyRose on April 07, 2014, 05:58:52 PM
Talk about walking on eggshells!

I've been following the thread, and with every additional post, I seem to relate less and less to some of the perspectives.

I am a woman. I live as a woman. I'm treated as a woman. But be darned if my value is decided by the rest of the world.

I'm very self confident, strong, assertive and self assured woman. These are qualities I earned, and gave myself. I didn't have them while living as a man. No, they are qualities that I earned as I transitioned. And now this innately shows in the way I interact with the world.

I'm not very pretty, though I am tall and slim. For that I get some attention from guys ( sexual ) and some attention from girls ( criticism or jealousy depending ). That's just par for the course and something I even do myself, at least to women. I'm always looking at women, for their fashion, style, and to compare myself to them. Men however, I totally ignore them. One plus of not being attracted to guys .

So with my worth decided by myself, I seem to have something that some of you may be missing. That elusive there's something about her quality mentioned before maybe?

@sad panda - Perhaps it would be very different for me if I were pretty like you. Maybe my worth would have been my appearance. I just don't know because that will never be my reality. And I'm sorry that you've not found peace or what you need in either gender roles. I hope you find the answers you need soon. xx

@FA - From a different perspective, I saw the way women were objectified by men. I hated it with the core of my being. Mostly because I was the very thing men were objectifying. But while that was happening, I also noticed the difference in women that were self confident and women that were insecure. God, I admired the self confident women! No man could alter their worth! They owned themselves and looked so secure in themselves. Anyway, I still struggle to understand your perspective. Yes, I think men do have life easier then women. It's just the way the world seems to work. But I don't see that generalisation as anything defining for each gender role. Just because the world thinks one way, doesn't make it so.

Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.

I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.