Quote from: Tink on August 21, 2007, 06:19:49 PM

Quote from: Robbie on August 21, 2007, 05:18:06 PM
NONE of us are men or ever will be.  NONE of us are women or ever will be.  WE ARE ALL transsexuals. 

Hmmmm...this is a very universal statement, and I disagree with it.  While I concur with you that I will never be a genetic female, I can assure you that I am a woman through and through.  I don't see myself as a transsexual, just as I don't see myself as "chicken pox" or any other illness for that matter.  Transsexualism is merely a label to indicate a medical condition; hence, it DOES NOT/CANNOT define me as a person or the essence of what/who I am, a woman.

I agree. A man with MS is not his disease. He's not called a  'multiple sclerosis', but a man.

Nero!!!!!!

Thank You!!!!!!!!!

Deb

Give me a second here I am working on this whole birth defect argument.  If anyone is curious I am a student of philosophy and logic so that is where all this comes from.

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 01:14:01 PM
Transsexual is no more a label than homosexual, heterosexual, white, black, mother, and father.  I have yet to find a definition of the word transsexualism that calls it a medical condition.  Transsexual is who we are.  I believe it to be offensive to deny this.  Many of us disassociate ourselves with anything male and push ourselves to the extremes of womanhood to try and convince society we are who we say we are.  Why would you want to trade the box you lived in for most of you life for another one that does not fit either?  I pushed myself into that womanhood box and found that it was just as difficult a place to live as when I was a "man".  I find most of my MtoF friends to be very shallow and never figure out what it means to be transsexual.  The delicate balance between male and female.  Before you yell at me I use the word shallow to describe the way in which most of my friends go about the whole process.  Deciding that there is only one path to follow.  The path of shedding all male and being reborn as the woman they feel they truly are.  That is a fantasy we all make up (I did also at one time) to not have to deal with the challenges that society puts on us for being Trans.  Living in stealth is like a closeted homosexual. Believe me more people know than you think.  When I first came out to my wife and family I to thought it was all about shedding the male and being a womanly as possible.  Trying to hide the fact that I was a man from everyone.  I live in a very conservative area and have had a much easier time with people accepting me for the PERSON I am by just telling them point blank that I am trans.  I don't hide anything and people respect me more for that.   

Robbie, you may have transitioned, but you sound more genderqueer than transsexual. Transsexuals are individuals born in the body of the sex opposite their gender.
There's nothing wrong with being genderqueer or against the binary, but you must understand that transsexuals are men and women, period. Not 'other'.

Really you call him a man with MS,   I.E. you know that guy with MS that works at the coffee shop. Also, Robbie the transsexual that works at the coffee shop.  Or Jamie and Liz the two lesbians that work at the coffee shop.  And Robbie she use to be a guy, you know she works at the coffee shop. That is a more realistic way that people are identified in society.   

QuoteRobbie, you may have transitioned, but you sound more genderqueer than transsexual.

A person could be both TS and genderqueer, and have an awareness of gender outside the binary. Kate Bornstein and Riki Anne Wilchins come to mind of TS who fit this description.

Zythyra

Nero,

   I disagree, I am going to respond, but first  I have to think of a different way to take my argument to not sound militant 

   We inflict a real injustice upon ourselves by letting society tell us we have to hide who we are and live up to what their standards of male and female are.  Which is what most of us do.  There is nothing ugly or wrong with any form of the word of label transsexual.  Embrace it, love it, it is who we are.  Just like soccer moms, suburbanites, hetro-nerds.  Yes, all of these are labels and labels are something we will never get rid of.  What is at question here is why do we choose the labels we do?  What outside influences push us to the labels we choose?  Again, I have questioned no ones womanhood.  I am just as much woman as all of you.  I choose not to be seen totally as a woman because I am not.  I spent the first thirty years of my life as a man.  That just does not go away because I don't like it.  Parts of that are me and will forever be me.  If do to some act of god I had to go back (I'm pre-op) I would forever embrace the parts of me that are woman.  It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.  This is how we sat and worked though it.  First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  Second, we all have strong urges to be perceived as the opposite gender.  All of us will go to just about any extent to achieve this.  We come up with the folktale of being a woman trapped in the body of man so we don't have to look at ourselves and see we are just indulging in our urges (which there is nothing wrong with) and to better explain it to society.  All of us try and turn ourselves into martyrs and talk about how hard our lives where because we were pigeon holed and forced to live by the black and white standards of society and no one truly understands us.  Instead of just saying that from the time I can remember I have felt a desire to live as a woman and now I am going to.  The problem with these folktales is we lie, deceive and cheapen ourselves because the media and doctors have told us this is how we are suppose to feel.  Why do we all describe ourselves in the same way just as we would all do a learned math problem the same way?  I am not saying that being Trans is learned.  I am saying that the way that most of us express it is learned and is taught to us by people that want to put into boxes you don't belong in.  Everyone answer this question truthfully.  In the beginning if you could have undergone a simple procedure in you head to fix all of this and make it go away would you?   If I am being militant again tell me.  I do respect everyone here because we have all been on the same path at some point. Just because our views are different does not mean either one of us is wrong or less of a person. 


Nicole W.

   I listen to all views and respect all people no matter what.  Off this thread nothing here matters its just a discussion for fun.   

omg, not another LABEL debate!  ARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!

sorry.  i shouldn't sound so jaded.  Carry on!

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PMFirst, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.

Speak for yourself. I don't buy the argument that my chromosomes or my dick determine my gender or my identity. That's an argument used by transphobes like Janice Raymond, and I just think it's so sad to see a trans person brainwashed into thinking that way. My gender derives from my inner sense of self. I'm a woman who unfortunately got an XY body, but I'll be damned if I let that get in the way of claiming my womanhood. It doesn't get the final say about who I am--I do. "Trapped" in a male body? Screw that BS. I'm not trapped--I'm liberated. Besides, my brain is female, so calling my body "male" is not the whole truth. I don't subscribe to Cartesian dualism of the mind and body, I think of them as two aspects of a single whole. And with my breasts and other effects of estrogen, it's becoming less and less accurate to call it male.

By the way, I'm not stealth, not even interested in going stealth, I enjoy being out and openly transsexual in the present day when so much liberated space has opened up for our tribe. For me, transsexual is an adjective. I'm a transsexual woman like I'm an Italian woman and a Pagan woman. The noun that identifies who I am is woman (plus any number of adjectives, one of which by a strange twist of fate just happens to be "transsexual"). Like I said, I'm not letting that get in the way of being who I am. Womanhood suits me just fine, thank you. If it doesn't suit you, fine, be who you are. I'm being who I am. I hope for a world where everyone can just be who they are without screwing around with other people's identities.

And I'm starting to get kind of fed up with the Bornsteins of this tribe who keep telling me I'm not "really" a woman just because I was born with a dick. Speak for yourselves. You don't speak for me. I'm a woman to my dying breath. The more I hear these arguments, the more tainted with transphobia they sound.

Quote from: Katia on August 22, 2007, 02:13:54 PM
if i thought my womanhood were a fantasy, i'd be very concerned and desperately seeking a second, third or fourth opinions on my so called gender issues...

I've got to agree with you Katia.  Transitioning from male to female is not about being cute, wearing silky tutus or load your face with makeup.  This is serious and goes beyond being a fantasy.  Fantasy is a delusion.  My womanhood isn't.  If some here believe their womanhood is a delusion, seek real professional help straight away and don't mix me up with your off the wall ideas.  Thank you kindly.

The majority of women are dissatisfied with their appearance. I guess I'm no exception to that.

On the subject of airbrushed photos, I found it highly amusing to hear that when footballer's wife Victoria Beckham moved from the UK to California recently she asked if the photo for her drivers license, which was a little unflattering, could be airbrushed possibly! The answer from a clerk with no sense of humor was of course NO!

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.

I wouldn't call them absurd. Yes, the first one is a metaphor, and like all metaphors it doesn't fit reality perfectly. Still, in some cases and for some people it is a useful one for describing how one feels. The second one can be a bit closer to reality, although the birth defect is not the penis as such but rather the discrepancy between one's body and mind. That really is congenital, at least according to a few studies, and it is not altogether unreasonable to consider it a defect.

Quite a bit of the confusion here revolves around the definitions of man and woman, partly with respect to the distinction between gender and sex, but also related to some more fine-tuned differences that are mostly not apparent in the cisgendered majority. Yes, on a chromosomal level you will always be male (unless some very major technological breakthroughs happen during our lifetime ); but that doesn't necessarily mean that your physical sex can never be reasonably considered female. In addition to this, your physical sex does not have to have anything to do with your gender, either in the sense of gender expression or gender identity.

I guess the point is that even though you are right that the binary gender system does not adequately describe many of us, it still is possible to classify a different group of many of us pretty unambiguously as either male or female. As you've seen by now, some members of this latter group tend to get rather annoyed if they see someone contesting their gender.   Can't blame them either, really.

  Nfr

Oh dear, I was just posting something about the ignorance of some peeps in regards to gender and sexual attraction.  I'm dumbfounded at the magnitude of their ignorance.  I don't hide from my transsexual history, I just follow brilliant minds like Einstein's.

"My life is a simple thing that would interest no one.
It is a known fact that I was born and that is all that is necessary."

Albert Einstein.

Or filling in forms,
Date of Birth: ✓
Sex: only with the right person

  Nfr

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
     First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  . 

Oh I believe it and accept it wholeheartedly.  Just don't ever imply that I'm like you or that I feel like you do, because I'm not and I don't.

On one have any fear.  I have not gone anywhere.  Spent most of the day with friends at the coffee shop discussing things over endless cups of coffee and tea.  If any of you is ever in Lancaster stop and see me.  I am here now for another full day of writing.  But before I just start on my own does anyone have in specific areas from the last two days they want to go over in more detail.     

Quote from: Robbie on August 22, 2007, 05:44:35 PM
   We inflict a real injustice upon ourselves by letting society tell us we have to hide who we are and live up to what their standards of male and female are.  Which is what most of us do.  There is nothing ugly or wrong with any form of the word of label transsexual.  Embrace it, love it, it is who we are.  Just like soccer moms, suburbanites, hetro-nerds.  Yes, all of these are labels and labels are something we will never get rid of.  What is at question here is why do we choose the labels we do?  What outside influences push us to the labels we choose?  Again, I have questioned no ones womanhood.  I am just as much woman as all of you.  I choose not to be seen totally as a woman because I am not.  I spent the first thirty years of my life as a man.  That just does not go away because I don't like it.  Parts of that are me and will forever be me.  If do to some act of god I had to go back (I'm pre-op) I would forever embrace the parts of me that are woman.  It is absurd to use the examples "I am a woman trapped in the body of a man"  or "I was born with a birth defect and that birth defect is a penis"  I know because I used them with colleague of mine, only to have them shot down again and again.  This is how we sat and worked though it.  First, I am a man and will always be XY  accept this.  Second, we all have strong urges to be perceived as the opposite gender.  All of us will go to just about any extent to achieve this.  We come up with the folktale of being a woman trapped in the body of man so we don't have to look at ourselves and see we are just indulging in our urges (which there is nothing wrong with) and to better explain it to society.  All of us try and turn ourselves into martyrs and talk about how hard our lives where because we were pigeon holed and forced to live by the black and white standards of society and no one truly understands us.  Instead of just saying that from the time I can remember I have felt a desire to live as a woman and now I am going to.  The problem with these folktales is we lie, deceive and cheapen ourselves because the media and doctors have told us this is how we are suppose to feel.  Why do we all describe ourselves in the same way just as we would all do a learned math problem the same way?  I am not saying that being Trans is learned.  I am saying that the way that most of us express it is learned and is taught to us by people that want to put into boxes you don't belong in.  Everyone answer this question truthfully.  In the beginning if you could have undergone a simple procedure in you head to fix all of this and make it go away would you?   If I am being militant again tell me.  I do respect everyone here because we have all been on the same path at some point. Just because our views are different does not mean either one of us is wrong or less of a person. 


Nicole W.

   I listen to all views and respect all people no matter what.  Off this thread nothing here matters its just a discussion for fun.   

Before I respond, a request please. Could you break up your posts into paragraphs? I found this hard on the eyes, thanks.

'Born in the wrong body' is a metaphor, a way of trying to describe our feelings. Call it a birth defect or what have you, but it is a condition. 'Transsexual' is not a gender. There is no shame in being transsexual, but it is not a gender.
Nobody here is denying their transsexuality, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.
A transsexual female who calls herself simply a woman instead of transsexual is not necessarily denying or ashamed of her past. Wearing the body of a man does not a man make.
Nobody said anything about shame or denial of their history, so again, what exactly is your point?

Quote from: Nero on August 23, 2007, 04:11:27 PMWearing the body of a man does not a man make.

'Cause as they say "Clothes make the man" LOL just kidding

Quote from: Nero on August 23, 2007, 04:11:27 PM

'Born in the wrong body' is a metaphor, a way of trying to describe our feelings. Call it a birth defect or what have you, but it is a condition. 'Transsexual' is not a gender. There is no shame in being transsexual, but it is not a gender.
Nobody here is denying their transsexuality, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.
A transsexual female who calls herself simply a woman instead of transsexual is not necessarily denying or ashamed of her past. Wearing the body of a man does not a man make.
Nobody said anything about shame or denial of their history, so again, what exactly is your point?

Thank you very much for providing the translation service, Nero. 

tink