Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 11:57:30 AM
  And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.

I ve been wondering about this now...

but hhhm we are still young right?
that means our body hadnt masculinized (i dont know if this is even a word btw) completely...
and even like that we had tons of dysphoria...

Im sure I could have found coping mechanism with a body of a slim, unmuscular 18 years old guy...
but what about a big completely masculine 30-40 years old guy? hell I didnt even had a beard!
I could tell that it would only get worse from now on...
thats why I decided to transition, and even now that im 19 T has damaged me so much already...

So yeah...
Anyways Im much better with e in my system, all I want is the overall picture to be female which is not,regardless of gender identity

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 11:57:30 AM
There's some. Something about the stria terminalis or whatever. But thereve been some tests to at least indicte that.

To me that doesn't really matter. That's more talking about the cause rather than the fact it *is*. I personally honestly couldn't care less about the cause, I was just working on that assumption for the sake of the argument.

But I do agree about that last bit. About finding the most happiness inducing outcome. But for me I've kinda come to realize there's not one for me haha. In my view of it, fundamentally, I am a male that wishes they were a full female. Maybe I could deal with that if it weren't for restrictive gender roles, but they F with my brain too much so I'm transitioning.

But really, it's only moving the problems. From something I have to deal with externally to something I fight internally. And I'm not sure which is worse at this point cuz not feeling real is pretty bad. And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.

Yep. I don't know. *hugs* it is different for everyone. I definitely think the simpler status of being a boy is so good for me personally, even if I feel nothing like other boys or like I am supposed to be one.

And I so totally agree that we are the people who are most responsible for changing gender roles, cuz transitioning just supports them. I feel like I should be able to me without compromising at all... society is wrong for not letting me, not me (: you know? Changing who I am legally and with labels and stuff is just like... admitting society won to me.

Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 10:05:39 AM
For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.

That's how it is for me. 

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 10:27:35 AM
If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.

That's seriously what I've been dealing with hugely lately, as well as the fact that I've lost 30 years of the life I should have had all along.  I'm still waiting to get hormones started, so maybe that'll change once on them... I don't know.  I just know I'll never look in the mirror and have my image line up with my mental image, which makes me fear I'll never be fully rid of the dysphoria.  I honestly can't imagine a life without the pain and torment I've lived with all my life.  The whole thing has me teetering back and forth as to whether or not to transition.

But I'm not sure I really have a choice in the matter, either.  I'm exhausted, and can't endure the pain any longer, and if I don't at least try to transition, then that's it for me. 

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on May 04, 2014, 12:12:36 PM
I ve been wondering about this now...

but hhhm we are still young right?
that means our body hadnt masculinized (i dont know if this is even a word btw) completely...
and even like that we had tons of dysphoria...

Im sure I could have found coping mechanism with a body of a slim, unmuscular 18 years old guy...
but what about a big completely masculine 30-40 years old guy? hell I didnt even had a beard!
I could tell that it would only get worse from now on...
thats why I decided to transition, and even now that im 19 T has damaged me so much already...

So yeah...
Anyways Im much better with e in my system, all I want is the overall picture to be female which is not,regardless of gender identity

I make up words, but not in this case

http://i.word.com/idictionary/masculinize

But yeah, that's true. I think in my case id take anti androgens regardless. And I'm so tiny in terms of build think id stay fairly small, regardless.

But it doesn't really matter anyway gus I hate the idea of being 30 plus, regardfless. And now I feel like I keep wasting what little goid time I have on this bs.

I wish I never transitioned. I made up my mind not yo a gajillion times, but for some reason I did. I should have just gotten healthy and kept on the path I was on, but whatever lool.

QuoteYep. I don't know. *hugs* it is different for everyone. I definitely think the simpler status of being a boy is so good for me personally, even if I feel nothing like other boys or like I am supposed to be one.

And I so totally agree that we are the people who are most responsible for changing gender roles, cuz transitioning just supports them. I feel like I should be able to me without compromising at all... society is wrong for not letting me, not me (: you know? Changing who I am legally and with labels and stuff is just like... admitting society won to me.

Yupp. This, precisely.

Physical transition is necessary for my well-being.
Forget functioning in the world, I couldn't be comfortable alone in a locked room before. There's no gender roles or social things at work there. No amount of trying to accept my body would stop the constant feeling of physical wrongness. I did everything I could to distract myself and ignore it, which didn't fix anything. Professional treatment for "anxiety" didn't fix it. Exercising, eating healthier, trying to take better care of myself didn't fix it. A binder helped. Top surgery has helped enormously. Being on testosterone is helping. Whether it's a matter of "brain sex" or not, transition is having positive results where everything else failed.

QuoteThat's seriously what I've been dealing with hugely lately, as well as the fact that I've lost 30 years of the life I should have had all along.  I'm still waiting to get hormones started, so maybe that'll change once on them... I don't know.  I just know I'll never look in the mirror and have my image line up with my mental image, which makes me fear I'll never be fully rid of the dysphoria.  I honestly can't imagine a life without the pain and torment I've lived with all my life.  The whole thing has me teetering back and forth as to whether or not to transition.

But I'm not sure I really have a choice in the matter, either.  I'm exhausted, and can't endure the pain any longer, and if I don't at least try to transition, then that's it for me. 

Yiujust gotta do what you gotta do. I think there's always a way to live and to be happy. The person looking back in the mirror is you. It's always going to be. And you know, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, I bet Carmen Carerra has her struggles. Because it's not just about the image. It's everything. It's *being* the sex you wish you were. And you can look the part, suure, I do (at least cvlothes-on), but at the end of it's only a relief from a f-ed up reality if how you were born.

So it's all just a coping mechanism. Transition. Problem is, for some people, it's nit a very goid one.

Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 11:42:54 AM
I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.

That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x

I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.

I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.

If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies

Bingo, cuz I actually mostly agree with him, as well,we really don't know what causes these thinfs. I was just using that for the sake of the argument cuz thats the narrative, and it doesnt matter cause isn't relevant here

This is to no individual in particular. Just a response to the various ideas in the thread.

There are almost no functional differences between my body now and how it was before. I'm a little weaker, I can't pee standing up, etc. Transition, from my perspective, is essentially cosmetic. The shift isn't in how my body works, but how my body looks, feels, smells. That shift, in turn, alters the way that other people react to my body--from increased disinterest in my opinion to my girlfriend's desire to sleep with me.

For me, the primary goal of transition was to convince my brain that my body was no longer "wrong." To shift my self-perception from "monster" to "person." It is hard to describe exactly what I mean by "wrong." But the discomfort was enough to suppress much of my interest in life, as well as a good portion of my identity and personality. To me the pills I take and the surgeries I had were, at their core, the equivalent of a very powerful anti-depressant, with limited negative side effects (at least physically).

I have very little in the way of romantic notions of a natural form. I've spent too much of my life at war with my body in one way or another. I used to have a tag on my profile that said "100% artificial." I can't really bring myself to care that I am "less real" or some such than other humans. To me, I am an improvement over the screwed up mess of a body that I was gifted with. Every alteration to my form, every pill, every surgery, even each tattoo and piercing, is part of my effort to reclaim, recolonize my flesh. This is my body and I will make of it as I damn well please, nah? Perhaps that perspective is because of my disability. I don't know.

As to how I am perceived by my society? I find "woman" to be the path of least resistance. So my name is Sarah and I am legally female. But I would never have transitioned for that. And in a world that didn't offer sufficient tools to alter my flesh, I'd probably be dead now, I'm guessing. So it goes.

As to gender norms and roles and all that jazz? It will be something I struggle with and struggle against for all of my life. There will never be a comfortable place in this world for people like me. Not in my lifetime at least. But at least I am lucky enough to live in a time and place where I can walk down the street without being regularly harassed.

I think, as always, it important to remember that we have more differences than similarities.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 12:28:26 PM
Yiujust gotta do what you gotta do. I think there's always a way to live and to be happy. The person looking back in the mirror is you. It's always going to be. And you know, in regards to ->-bleeped-<-, I bet Carmen Carerra has her struggles. Because it's not just about the image. It's everything. It's *being* the sex you wish you were. And you can look the part, suure, I do (at least cvlothes-on), but at the end of it's only a relief from a f-ed up reality if how you were born.

So it's all just a coping mechanism. Transition. Problem is, for some people, it's nit a very goid one.

Exactly.  It's not about the image for me, that just adds to it.  What I want is peace, an end to the constant torment of the dysphoria that's there with or without the mirror, or the image.  It's out of the disconnect from what my brain expects to feel in regards to my biology and what my biology actually is.  And as you point out, transitioning has many limits, and I'm scared it won't be enough to end the dysphoria.

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.

If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?

Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU

There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.

But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me.

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?

The scientists who did the studies took that into account. More studies do need to be done, but the results so far strongly indicate that the brain thing is correct.

Quote from: Jen on May 04, 2014, 11:49:01 AM
I think we shouldn't assume everybody else is the same as ourselves.  Gender/sex variance comes in many flavors, I think.  If your dysphoria is triggered only/mostly  by gender things, or gender role things, then maybe transition is not necessary for you, or maybe it is the worst thing for you in some cases.  I don't know, because that isn't my personal experience.  For me, my body is wrong, that is the source.  Yes, gender/gender role things contribute to my dysphoria, much more so prior to actually transitioning, but it is because they remind(ed) me that this body I have is wrong.  In fact, the more in line my body becomes with my mind, the less I worry about gender or fitting into a particular role.

I agree with this.
True, my body will never be exactly how I want it, but it can be something closer to how I want it. Maybe I'll "never be happy," but I know for a fact I will never be happy if my body continues to be as wrong as it is.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 12:50:01 PM

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.

If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?

Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU

There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.

But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me.

Thanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.

Sorry to derail...

Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
True, my body will never be exactly how I want it, but it can be something closer to how I want it. Maybe I'll "never be happy," but I know for a fact I will never be happy if my body continues to be as wrong as it is.

^This.  I don't know if transitioning will help me find peace and be happy and that alone is scary, but there's at least a chance it will.  Which is more than can be said for not transitioning.

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:37:41 PM
I agree. I read the later posts and don't think Abby was suggesting that as much as just using shorthand. I know there have been studies - but apparently they can only be done on the dead. How do we know the brains weren't affected by HRT?
Even if it's true for some, I think a significant portion of us would probably come up as having the brains of our birth sex if tested. The LGB relies on this brain stuff, 'born this way' too. But I suspect if there were a test for gayness, many would also come up short. And the reason we cling to this stuff is because of bigotry and stigma. We want equal rights and it all just sounds better if we can't help it.

If you believe in souls, maybe there isn't a physical reason. Maybe some souls were just meant to be trans or gay or whatever. Or - a big thing in the Bible is freewill and self-determination. Would it be so bad if someone just decided they preferred the same sex or being the opposite gender without any reason to back it up?

Yeah, I just think it's weird to act like it needs to be something we can't help, esp before anyone really knows what we are talking about. It shouldn't need to be a brain sex thing, it shouldn't even absolutely need an explanation... it doesn't change people's feelings and experiences. Those are real, Those are what matters!

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 04, 2014, 12:50:01 PM
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU

There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.

But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me.

I always see that link and I am confused what people are even saying it proved... :s it did not confirm that MTFs had female brains, or even, it confirmed that they did not, even if they were in between, (should we allow mtfs to be dykes and tomboys but not femme girls now?) ...and it was only a few parts of the brain, which they don't even know if those things are related to gender, and we don't really know much about the selection bias or how that sample represents the actual average trans person. or less standard trans people, or really anything at all. So... I still think that there is no proof yet, and there shouldn't need to be... sorry... :x

(Oh yeah, also the bias after the fact of only posting studies that find differences and ignoring studies that don't...)

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 04, 2014, 12:48:32 PM
Exactly.  It's not about the image for me, that just adds to it.  What I want is peace, an end to the constant torment of the dysphoria that's there with or without the mirror, or the image.  It's out of the disconnect from what my brain expects to feel in regards to my biology and what my biology actually is.  And as you point out, transitioning has many limits, and I'm scared it won't be enough to end the dysphoria.

Regardless, at the end, it's still you. The essence of you as a person. Truthfully, it won't end the dysphoria, I don't believe. It may..impair it. But if you're too obsessed with having a female identical body, again, you'll never be happy no matterf who you are. You could be fricken Carmen Carerra like I said. And still feel incomplete. Because, in a way, if your goal is a seamless transition to the other sex, you always will be...no matter how passable, no matter how pretty, no matter how many pills, surgeries etc.

I think the only way for a trans person to be happy is to forget gender altogether. Find the spot that's most comfortable and then let it go. Be you. Be a person. Be Colleen. And look at your body and say...this is what you've got. Sure amake any upgrades you want if thats what you think you need but at the end accept and love it regardless because it's yours, and it's all you've got for this time around.

PM me if you wana talk and hang in there boo!

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:59:35 PM
Just to clarify, since I've seen this posted a few times again. There was a study done 3 years ago of live, pre-HRT trans people. It confirmed brain differences among those individuals tested. It has since been replicated.
The study: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.U2Z8xyjN4tU

There is nothing in our minds that is not in our brains. We are physical structures, flesh. If we desire to transition, than we have something in our brains that causes us to desire to transition. If it is not found on a scan, that means the scan failed to find the cause, not that a cause does not exist.

But then, I have no soul. So... perhaps it is just me.


Thanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.

Sorry to derail...

From the studies I've read and looked into, gay and lesbian transpeople's brains are closer to that of their birth sex, but a number of differences in various regions and structures were still found.  The conclusion being drawn is that the brains of transpeople are structured and wired differently than cisgender brains, even when they more closely match their birth sex rather than the gender they identify as.

Yeahh, I think we're getting too hung up on the cause. Regardless, it's something that takes place within your head right? Maybe physical maybe mental. Who cares. The cause doesnt matter i shoulda left that out, i was trying to avoid people bringing up to say "well this meaans blah bla" by saying it first.

It's the thoughts and feelings that are distressing, in whatever case. That and how to deal with them is what needs to be addressed.

Quote from: FA on May 04, 2014, 12:59:35 PMThanks. I didn't know there were pre-HRT studies. Do you know if any have been done on gay and lesbian trans people? I know there's said to be differences between homosexual and hetero brains.

Sorry to derail...

I'm afraid all this research is really in its infancy. (Though, yes, differences between homosexual and hetero brains have been found since 1991.) Another 20 years and we may start getting some answers as to what makes us as we are.

Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 01:02:51 PMI always see that link and I am confused what people are even saying it proved... :s it did not confirm that MTFs had female brains, or even, it confirmed that they did not, even if they were in between, (should we allow mtfs to be dykes and tomboys but not femme girls now?) ...and it was only a few parts of the brain, which they don't even know if those things are related to gender, and we don't really know much about the selection bias or how that sample represents the actual average trans person. or less standard trans people, or really anything at all. So... I still think that there is no proof yet, and there shouldn't need to be... sorry... :x

(Oh yeah, also the bias after the fact of only posting studies that find differences and ignoring studies that don't...)

From my perspective, it proved the need for further research into the subject. That there is "something" there, but we don't yet know what it is, or how it works, or why. I never believe that a lack of information is positive. I'm an information junkie.

And I have no interest in "proving" transsexualism. That is kind of an absurd concept really. I exist, ergo transsexualism exists. The end. I just would like to understand it better.

It's hard to answer the hypothetical scenario about living in a world where gender roles didn't exist.  I never lived in such a world, so I can't say how I'd feel.  To be honest, I feel it differs from person to person as dysphoria seems to be unique to each individual.  In my eyes, I feel compelled to do it and would hate to have to live as a guy for the rest of my life.  If I lived in a world where I could be a guy yet live and look exactly what a girl has, then maybe but I guess body dysphoria would always exist.  I don't know because it's not reality.  Transitioning just seems to make the most sense considering how I feel and what I want out of my life.  Was I born this way?  I don't know.  Was I made this way?  I don't know.  All I do know is that this has been how I've felt for most of my life and I'm tired of letting it haunt me.  No matter how much I tried to change myself it's been a part of me for whatever reason or explanation.  All I want is for there to be a day that I can feel happy and free and transitioning seems the best way to offer this.  It's not neccessarry for everyone, but it seems the best shot I got.  To be honest, I don't even want to live in a future that would require me living as a man and I can't wait for this all to be over.