Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:11 AM
And if it feels like life or death, that probably is a product of the way our society portrays gender...you may have body dysphoria, but that's probably the product of how you internalizd gender roles.

And even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.

I think this thread was good to, and has gotten me to consider things from a different perspective.

I just wanted to reiterate another option to this.  While you are certainly correct for when it's body issues, and I think we all suffer from that to varying degrees.  My point here isn't to disagree with this statement at all but add to it with a possibility that can and may often work in tandem with the body image issues.

Consider the fact that long after someone has lost a limb, and come to terms with that, the brain's expectation of the limb persists.  Not finding that limb causes extreme duress which manifests as pain.  We call it phantom pain and phantom limb syndrome.  For some it may in time go away, for others it never does.

In short our brains expect us to physical match it's body map for us, and when there's something missing or something is different than it should be it does cause duress and pain.

We have what is called proprioceptive sense.  This is our sense of ourselves.  It is the sense that tells us where each and every part of our body is in relation to the rest.  Close your eyes and raise your hand, its the proprioceptive sense that still lets you know your hand is above your head.  Close your eyes and put your hand on your hip, or touch your noses.  This sense is what allows you to do so without missing.  You feel and know where each part of you is at every moment of the day, without thinking of it.  We barely pay attention to this sense, give it conscious thought, because we don't have to.  Our brain does it for us. 

This sense is used by many areas and section of the brain, and works in conjuntion with many more.  All it takes is one part to be built expecting the a different body map, one matching the gender we identify as, to cause duress that manifests as pain.

Food for thought.  Personally, I don't think dysphoria is just body image issues, at least not for everyone.  Conventional therapy has been proven to work for body image issues, whereas it hasn't had much of a success rate in treating trans issues or the dysphoria.  There always is the possibility that for us, the body image issues are a great deal stronger and thus resist conventional therapy, but personal I think for many something else is at play, something out of our conscious mind.

There are as many ways to be transgender as there are transgender people.  There is certainly no "one size fits all" approach and what works for me probably isn't going to be exactly what works for you.   We are like snowflakes, some flakier than others.    We all must do what we need to do in order to squeeze as much happiness out of life as possible.

This has been a public service announcement.

I've watched this thread, silent, from the beginning and much of it has been painful.

It reminds me of two great controversies I watched from the sidelines. In the late 60's early 70's many people in the Women's Liberation Movement invalidated the choice of other women to choose a more traditional homemaker role for themselves.

In the 80's the general cant among gays of both genders was that bisexuals were just gays too timid to commit.

Both of these were resolved in favor of more freedom. I don't expect this one to be any different. Be the transgendered that you are and respect that others will do the same.

Even though we're the "T" in "GLBT" we're not really like them. They're defined by who they love. We're not. Nothing brings us together except the need for an understanding ear and informed advice. We can be them, additionally. We have a condition that we have to deal with as best we can. Some lucky ones might come to an accommodation with our condition that allows them to walk through life without that condition being exposed. Many of us will not.

If we don't support each other unconditionally we have nothing.

im really interested in your thoughts abbyxo, since im in front of the decision of transition. But why blame society for gender roles? the gender binary is complete biological. i always read about a feminine male or masculine female but it always comes down to: cis and normal and therefore not comparable to trans. i know hetero and feminine males and no one blame them or say they are gay or something. if you change their sex you could say they are stereotype woman. they dont have problems with their gender because society is not the problem. society is a problem for being trans and not for living a gender role.
i had a gay?, maybe he was trans?, in my class. he was always on a bad mood and one day he start to polish his nails, wear pink shirts, etc., and since then he appear balanced and happy. we(my classmates and me) dont know if he was gay or trans or just different or whatever he realize and no one really care. he act like a female but no one blame him for this or thought that he have a mental problem or anything else. so for me it is far-fetched to say that you cant life the role of the opposite gender because of society. i experienced it different not just one time. so i cant say i want to transition because i have to be female to live a female role. if i just live a female role i will be accepted by society. if i start the transition the acceptance will be over. so transition because society say i am not designated to act female as a male...?
and coming back to the binary: being trans hurt the biological binary and this is why we mostly have mental issues. we could only be trans in sex and never cis. so it is a difficult question of selfacceptance. i dont see a link to society or socialization here.

greetings

Quote from: AbbyxoAnd even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.

I would like to live in an age where transition is just a cosmetic procedure. Something like plastic surgery. Something people do because it makes them feel better about themselves. A little change.

There are a whole lot of "shoulds" here; and elsewhere in your arguments, Abby.

The thing is, life isn't constructed from "should," it's constructed of "is."  Sometimes what we mean by "should" is "I wish that things were different, but I recognize that they're not." But sometimes what someone means when they say that people should feel, or act in, a certain way is that they ought to feel or act a certain way, and that there's something wrong with them if they don't. I'm finding a lot of the latter sentiment in your arguments.

Yes, gender roles are mostly socially constructed. Yes, standards of beauty are mostly socially constructed. Yes, it would be nice if those things were less rigid than they are, and if it were easier for people to be free from the constraints that they pose. And yes, it's fine thing that some people have the energy to push back against that system, because it is possible for things to change.

Here's a little story: I got involved with the gay liberation movement over 40 years ago, when things were way worse for gays and lesbians than they are now for trans people. We wanted to change society, and we did: gay marriage is now legal in several states, including mine, and I never thought I'd live to see that. But we also wanted a revolution in the expression of sexuality: many of us saw that marriage was the product of a patriarchal system and that it had more to do with property rights than with human happiness, and we wanted to create a society in which people were free to be sexual in any way they wanted, with whoever they pleased, and in which sex roles (think butch/femme here, for starters) would be abolished.

But most gay and lesbian people didn't want that. Most people, whether they're gay or straight, just want the freedom to be themselves within society as it exists. So as it became more acceptable for gay people (and lesbians -- I just get bored with typing "g&l, g&l" over and over) to be out of the closet, the focus of the movement shifted from revolution to reform: people fought for the right to adopt children, for the right to serve in the military, and for the right to marry. Many of my lesbian friends are now married, and I'm happy for them.

But it's hard for me not to be disappointed that they want that; they should want non-traditional relationships; they should want to destroy the patriarchy; they should want to smash the state. But they don't, and it's on me to accept that. Most people are conformists; they just want to fit in and be accepted by the society they live in, and that's both natural and inevitable -- if it weren't, it would be hard for any society to sustain itself, and humans evolved as social critters.

So with transgendered people; some, given their sense of who they are, don't believe in the gender binary as constructed by society, and want to smash it, and if they have the energy to work for that, fine. But if some people want to conform to gender norms as they exist, that's fine too. It's destructive and hurtful to blame them for not living up to your own ideals.

And the whole thing isn't socially constructed. Sexual dimorphism exists as a biological reality, and that ain't gonna change. I have always wanted a male body: the bone structure, the muscles, the facial hair, the deep voice, etc. Some of what feels wrong about my body isn't fixable, but some of it is, and I will feel much more comfortable in the world when I am consistently read as male. My behavior won't change much, and that's fine. I've been gender non-conforming all my life, and I've tried my damnedest to make that work for me as a woman, and it hasn't worked.

I'm a guy, and I need a guy's body -- that's very conformist of me, and I don't give a [bleep].

Quote from: Dee MarshallIf we don't support each other unconditionally we have nothing.

Exactly.

(I'd say "That's my $0.02," but I think I'm up to about five bucks now.  )

If we just allowed everybody to have the agency to believe in their own nonsense we wouldn't fight as much.

Bleh, idk that is probably an easy/privileged thing for somebody that is in the less marginalized group to say.   But still, most heated arguments happen because both sides won't just do that simple thing.

But it is a fact that everybody here is a part of a larger, marginalized group, and that no matter how well we fit the binary model, the outside world sees us as defying it, just for being trans.  And I think it is heartening that most of the people fitting the binary here are not supporting the model itself, which btw hasn't always been true here.  Maybe that isn't enough, idk.

Oh and one other thing.  That the way I am undermines some of the feminist messaging makes me feel conflicted, because I am a pretty hardcore feminist, but honestly I think it is where some feminists (not the cool ones, of whom are most) get a little misguided.  i feel feminism should be about working towards the ideal of women getting to be whoever and whatever they want.  If a woman conforms to norms, that should be okay.  Not that you would have to fight for the right to conform to norms, but if you force somebody to be something they don't want to be, then you've come so far you are now on the other side, being quite similar to what you were fighting against in the first place.

Oh and I too have apperciated the discussion.   Hearing differing views to your own is how you open your mind to new ideas and perspectives.

There is a leap that people make sometimes from artificial to fake. There is this essentialist argument inside us that says if the origin was not birth, pre-birth, hardwired into the very code of our being that it is not the truth. It is not true to us.

It is what makes people say that XY = male and XX = female. Or any such nonsense.

We are born with little. No language, few thoughts. We become what we are through our world around us. Our brains shift and shape as we learn, as we grow. As we become who we are now.

Society creates us. Without it we would not think the way we do. We would not speak. We would not have hormones or surgery or any of the miraculous tools we have at our disposal to make our lives easier or better or less broken. The very concept of altering our bodies is a product of being taught that we can alter them.

Society is not evil. It is imperfect. As all things are.

That we do not fit and it wants us to fit... that is unfortunate. And uncomfortable for us. But it is as it is. Society shifts slowly, achingly slowly. And while it shifts, we live within it. There is no shame in that. No shame in being as it has made us. I do not know the origin of the pain that led to me changing my body. I know it is in my body, because all the things that I am are in my body. I know its expression has been through my society, because all the things that I do are through my society. But it does not matter. All that matters is I hurt less now than I did 5 years ago.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 10:35:11 AMAnd even if it's not why should it cause so much pain? Why should it cause anymore pain than disliking the color of your eyes or complexion of your skin? Body issues come in all shapes and sizes, beyond the gender specific ones. It's because these body issues come with strings attached. The need to conform to masvuline or feminine ideals. This is where dysphoria comes in. This where body hatred comes in...nobody should have to hate their body, regardless.

This does not matter. The reason why it nearly killed me makes little difference. Only the ways to stop it from happening and the ways to make it easier for the next person who must survive it. I would live in a world where nobody ever had the experience that I did. That would make me happy. But I will settle for trying to make it easier to live for myself and for others.

People sometimes idealize a "natural state" where these problems that our complex world has thrown on us would not exist. My best friend lives through the technology of this world. He would have died as a child otherwise. I, myself, am only able to function due to medication. Without it I would not be able to work or think or by now, possibly draw breathe. (No, that has nothing to do with my transsexualism.) Some of us are born broken, some of us are broken by our world. But whether accident of birth or accident of life, no pain is more or less real. Would we suggest that to be born into a wheelchair is more true than to be broken in a car accident? The same is true for us. We hurt. That is all that matters. There are just different problems and our muddled attempts to make this better, to make things hurt less.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 09:07:55 AMSo basically...I'm doing something I don't want to do, because I can't deal with feelings i shouldn't have to deal with anyway, so I can live a life where I feel a way I shouldn't have to about myself...and in the end? The solution is validating the cause of the problem. Because everything I'm doing is to appeal to the system that causes this painful cycle. And I'm not a person who can look past these things. The irony stares me in the face everyday.

You are kind and sweet and care deeply and generously about others. That is part of what our world has made you as well.

Yes, our world has problems. And, yes, our actions often support those problems. Intentionally or not.

My best friend, it uses up hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources to keep him alive. Maybe 10 or 20 times what the average person in my wealthy country has to live on each year. If he had been born in a poor country, he would be dead. And my country is only rich because those countries are poor. It is unfortunate, and yet also fortunate.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that many things are that... complex. That they can be both a good and a bad. That you can enjoy your youth and beauty and still question the system that values them. That you should respect your efforts to make your life easier, even if you wish it was not necessary.

You can't live pulling yourself apart from the inside. And you shouldn't have to.

Abby, what's frustrating is that you're also saying those of us who transitioned/are transitioning "don't need to." That is invalidating, no matter how you want to paint it. Even if wasn't a "live or die" scenario for some of us, it is a "thrive or wilt" scenario in nearly every case. In your quest to make society a better fit for people like yourself, you can't make it worse for others, and living under the belief that we don't "need" to transition and only do it because of gender roles is the type of belief that leads to transgender people being excluded and ostracized as freaks who mutilate our bodies needlessly. You can want to get rid of gender roles without going to that extreme.

@Sarah,

I know society isn't aall bad. I guess it's a little more complicated for me cause I live in a small, Southern town with, I think, 9k people. So I see the worst segment of society.

In some ways transition has improved stuff for me. I don't get called a dyke or a ->-bleeped-<- anymore. Unless I wear boy clothes, then I'll get called a dyke. But yeah.

But still. Things are rough because even if people are nicer now it's cause they don't know.

Take a good example. Every now and then I hang out with my brother and his friends. I just shoot the breeze with them, nothing serious but I know for a fact a couple of them like me. They have no idea I'm trans.

Now...these are big, Southern, Christian right winger farmer dudes. Do you know what it's like like...I don't know. Like hanging out with them I'm consciously aware of how delicate it is. Like tiptoing around sleeping lions...one wrong move...

Thats just an example that springs to mind. So to me I think, society is on my mind a lot lately because I feel a little bit like I have no right way to turn and theres all this baggage. Add in the fact I'm still not 100% sure of transition and just a lot of other stuff and it just...gives me this thirst for change.

So I can't enjoy being young and beautiful completely because, yeah...I don't know if this is the body I wanted and even if it is it's a very dangerous way to be, where I am (especially given the way everybody knows everybody, and I knew some peeps pre transition).

And I just...there are soo many people in my situation. Sad Panda for one. Tons others. And it's just...not right, I guess.

Didn't realize you were in the south, Abby. If there's any way you can move, you would have a very different experience in New England, especially further north. Gender roles are blurred in most areas here and nonexistent in a few.

Quote from: Declan. on May 05, 2014, 02:08:05 PM
Abby, what's frustrating is that you're also saying those of us who transitioned/are transitioning "don't need to." That is invalidating, no matter how you want to paint it. Even if wasn't a "live or die" scenario for some of us, it is a "thrive or wilt" scenario in nearly every case. In your quest to make society a better fit for people like yourself, you can't make it worse for others, and living under the belief that we don't "need" to transition and only do it because of gender roles is the type of belief that leads to transgender people being excluded and ostracized as freaks who mutilate our bodies needlessly. You can want to get rid of gender roles without going to that extreme.

People are free to mutilate their bodies tho. If you want to put it like that. Getting cosmetic surgery is a common thing. They may even really need it (there are a lot of serious mental disorders intertwined eith too much cosmetic surgery)

But why always the whole package? why can't someone just be a female who needs a guy's body? Why should people be forced to find their place in the binary if all they have is body dysphoria for example? Or forced to change their body if all they have is social dysphoria?

We lumped trans people together who are not similar and forced them into the same treatment path. Cuz the gender roles are smothering.

It's like telling people who like tribal piercings that they have to go thru a coming of age ritual and get a letter from an african tribal chief. if it's not a social identity then... why do we say you have to be this thing if you want to look this way? Threy should be separate, but they are not, and nobody's really trying to separate them because trans people often don't actually want this thing or that thing. They want the stereotype itself. They want something society told them to be and want.

Declan, I didn't mean to say that, I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry for seeing things the way I do, so I'm unable to apologize for that, even if you disagree.

There are cases where transition may be necessary *foor* specific reasons. If somebody is severely suicidal and transition is the only 'medicine' to cure it, then in this case, transition is a necessity, just like depakote, celexa, risperdal, prozac, whatever.

However, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.

How is feeling like your body is the wrong sex any different from other body image issues? The difference is, that although we as males and females aren't so very different physically, society imposes very separate expectations on each as opposed to the other.

Following on an earlier thread...I suppose it could be said that...if a pretty girl were to develop a condition that caused her to gain weight...lipo suction or any other cosmetic procedure to reduce the girls weight because the distress that *feeling* like the pretty girl she is but being trapped in an ugly girls body and even worse enduring the treatment of being such is enough to induce suicidal depression.

You all keep saying "but I'm a guy/girl in x body thats why this is so horrible" like it should have weight...but to me it doesn't. Because to me gender should be unimportant. The two aren't so very different.

Declan, interesting, I wish I did live there truthfully. I would probably have never transitioned tbh.

I guess for me I've never turned the dysphoria toward my body. As I said, I rather liked it as a guy. I'd waay prefer a cisfemale body if I could have had it, but that was fine too. One is as good as the other.

My dysphoria wasn't so much over hating being male per se but hating that I had to be a man and all the expectations that came with that. Ever since I was little I found strength in femininity and felt if I could be a woman then things would be so much better/easier...I could be allow myself to be fun, strong and outgoing and vibrant and it would be okay that at my core I am soft and feminine and delicate if I were a girl. Because I could never be manly, tough or what have you. So as a boy I felt both vulnerable and weak and 'less than' for being that way.

But in many ways I was right. I am all of the things I thought I could be as a girl. But I realize now I shouldn't have had to become a girl to get them. I shouldn't have had to change my body to get them.

But I've posted on this topic enough....thanks for the food for thought everyone.

I loathe gender roles. These forums are toxic to me sometimes, in the sense that I read stuff like "I should have been a girl" or "I'm a woman! I feel like one"... It's so invalidating. People are way more than boys and girls, ugh, identity is so vast and encompassing, you can't sum any human being as male or female. That's what I dislike. Transgender folk view the world in black or white, but in reality there's so many shades of boys and girls, that in the real world it should matter little what you are.

This is the problem for me. I find people out there to be way more understanding and less conforming than most transgender individuals, particularly MtF's, who perpetuate all sorts of notions that are nauseating to me. I get dysphoric when I hear people preach about men being brutes and women being "delicate", it's just so absurd and out of contact with reality, but still it makes me feel weird. I'd say men and women act the same, at least in my age group, seriously. It's a a blurry line nowadays... I want to not feel like I need to transition, I want to like my body, I want to feel like I can be myself without changing my identity, but that seems a little impossible... Whenever I try I inevitably fail and just hate myself for not being "a woman", as if changing what others perceive me as is a pre-requisite for being how I already am.

But yeah, some posts here seem straight out of the 1950s, with men and women being regarded as almost different species.

I don't care if people see themselves as men or women, I refuse to see people that way. They're people. I address them by whatever pronoun makes them happy, but I don't particularly care who's what.

Ugh I feel weird now... It's as if not even the transgender community is acceptant of being "different", I just see played-out stereotypes... And yeah, I'm feeling really frustrated if that wasn't obvious.

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 02:26:00 PM
People are free to mutilate their bodies tho. If you want to put it like that. Getting cosmetic surgery is a common thin. They may even really need it (there are a lot of serious mental disorders intertwined eith too much cosmetic surgery)

But why always the whole package? why can't someone just be a fema,e who needs a guy's body? Why should people be forced to find their place in the binary if all they have is body dysphoria for example? Or forced to change their body if all they have is social dysphoria?

We lumped trans people together who are not similar and forced them into the same treatment path. Cuz the gender roles are smothering.

I didn't say they should be forced to find their place in the binary or change their body. I'm fine with a world where people who don't feel the need to transition don't, and the people who do need to transition go through with it. I'm not fine with a world where the people who do need to transition aren't legally allowed to because of misguided activists. The only reason we're allowed to transition is because transition is the only way to treat most of us. If the trend of "we only need to transition because of gender roles" persists, it's a very real possibility that we will no longer be allowed to transition.

QuoteHowever, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.

It's not the only explanation that makes sense. It doesn't explain the phantom feeling of genitalia that isn't there, or feeling your chest and feeling something different from what your brain is telling you should be there. For some, that's a reality. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with other males. I never felt like I didn't "fit" with females, either. Just about all of New England is progressive, but I live in a pocket where gender roles are not at all a part of society and not forced on anyone. If you were blind and everyone sounded the same, you would not be able to tell male from female here. Even though there are a few people who do fit the "typical" gender roles found in other parts of the country, the majority don't.

QuoteHow is feeling like your body is the wrong sex any different from other body image issues? The difference is, that although we as males and females aren't so very different physically, society imposes very separate expectations on each as opposed to the other. You all keep saying "but I'm a guy/girl in x body thats why this is so horrible" like it should have weight...but to me it doesn't. Because to me gender should be unimportant. The two aren't so very different.

I don't feel like my body is the wrong sex. My body is deformed, not "the wrong sex." Even if gender roles were eradicated, most men will still be born with male bodies, and most females will still be born with female bodies.

QuoteI guess for me I've never turned the dysphoria toward my body. As I said, I rather liked it as a guy. I'd waay prefer a cisfemale body if I could have had it, but that was fine too. One is as good as the other. My dysphoria wasn't so much over hating being male per se but hating that I had to be a man and all the expectations that came with that. Ever since I was little I found strength in femininity and felt if I could be a woman then things would be so much better/easier...I could be allow myself to be fun, strong and outgoing and vibrant and it would be okay that at my core I am soft and feminine and delicate if I were a girl. Because I could never be manly, tough or what have you. So as a boy I felt both vulnerable and weak and 'less than' for being that way. But in many ways I was right. I am all of the things I thought I could be as a girl. But I realize now I shouldn't have had to become a girl to get them. I shouldn't have had to change my body to get them.

I'm not a doctor, but I'm not so sure that's gender dysphoria. There are many men and women who feel that way as well - especially women, I would say. Do you think every woman who wants to be equal with men wants to be a man? If that were the case, feminism wouldn't exist. Feminists would have transitioned instead. I think your life would improve drastically if you moved and got out of the suffocating environment you're in. The cookie-cutter society of the south can't be good for someone like yourself. 

We goin' in circles, y'all.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 02:30:35 PM

However, it is my personal belief that this amount of dysporia induced depression is the result of internalizing gender roles which exacerbate feelings of incongruency. This may not be true of all, perhaps, but of most. Because it's the only explanation that makes sense.

Well, I don't think there's really a way to know. For some of us, this all started early. I don't think I knew enough about gender roles as a toddler when this first started to manifest. But who knows really?

I think the physical dysphoria for me at least, comes from the inside. It wasn't something like I thought 'breasts and periods are for girls, so this is wrong'. It wasn't anything like that. It was just this terrible feeling of wrongness about my body at puberty. At that point, I didn't think about which gender I wanted to be, I just wanted those parts gone.

Personally, I'd rather have lived socially as a girl without breasts and having facial hair than as a guy with breasts and no hair. If that was the choice. So, it's partly about being recognized as a guy and called 'he' and stuff. But mostly about feeling comfortable even moving around in this body for me. I was never comfortable in my body after puberty. Changing clothes was painful. Showering was excruciating. Even moving around in a body that felt wrong bothered me. That has all changed now. It doesn't hurt to perform these simple tasks anymore.

If the physical dysphoria is some kind of internalized gender role thing, then it was very deep seated and present from a very early age (for me anyway). Which my parents never pressured me one way or the other. So it didn't come from them.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of your points, but the physical dysphoria for me was very real and tangible. I don't think I got it because of preferring a boy's social role.

Declan, wellll I mean it was dysphoria, I think. Because I really *did* always wanna be a girl since I was little and I would get upset if I was forced to be a boy. And if I had my choice I'd still def be a bio female, but thats not possible.

But to me it wasn't really about body. I mean, yes I wanted to look like a girl and wear makeup and stuff, but that shouldn't be gender specific number 1. And number 2 I didn't hate that I couldn't and I never hated my body, genitals, and yeh. You get it. The closest I had to body dysphoria was not wanting to get haircuts but pre transition I even had a couple nice, short cuts I liked...I was very comfortable with my body as it was.

But no what really provoked transition was the roles and the constant reminder of what I was expected to be. It didn't let me forget, I guess you could say. But, yeah, I agree about the South :\

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 03:18:26 PM
Declan, wellll I mean it was dysphoria, I think. Because I really *did* always wanna be a girl since I was little and I would get upset if I was forced to be a boy. And if I had my choice I'd still def be a bio female, but thats not possible.

But to me it wasn't really about body. I mean, yes I wanted to look like a girl and wear makeup and stuff, but that shouldn't be gender specific number 1. And number 2 I didn't hate that I couldn't and I never hated my body, genitals, and yeh. You get it. The closest I had to body dysphoria was not wanting to get haircuts but pre transition I even had a couple nice, short cuts I liked...I was very comfortable with my body as it was.

But no what really provoked transition was the roles and the constant reminder of what I was expected to be. It didn't let me forget, I guess you could say. But, yeah, I agree about the South :\

That does help me understand where you're coming from. Just keep in mind that your experience isn't really "typical" of transgender people - however, I think part of the problem is we're all lumped in together in spite of being so diverse. Everyone falls under the same umbrella, and it leads to misunderstandings such as the ones on this thread. I understand that's a controversial opinion and one I could be wrong about. When we're all treated the same way, we argue, fight, and divide. If we weren't, and we were all able to pursue what's best for each of us as individuals instead, there would be discussion and support. In any case, I hope you find peace. You seem on your way to it, at least. If you ever manage to get out of the smothering South and you do move up here, you would find friends in us.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 05, 2014, 07:45:28 AMThe body issue may have come about as a result of pressure from gender norms. We have no way of knowing.

Maybe someone's dysphoria is the result of parental attachment or abandonment issues, or abuse.  Maybe it's denial of being gay.  Maybe it is the result of autosexual attraction.  Maybe. 

We can actually believe what others are saying and not psychoanalyze their motivation.

QuoteAnd even if the body issue IS there, regardless, which it might be, you don't necessarily have to transition. Why do I say that? Because there are some in the same position as you all who are medically unable to. And they find
peace.

A person with myopia can find peace without glasses or lasik, as a person with overbite and crooked teeth can find peace without braces.  A person with a cleft palate can find peace without surgery. 

You know, the whole Serenity Prayer idea.

QuoteAnd you can moo and moan about my points and say they're invalidating all you like. It doesn't take away that the very fact that we live in a society that makes transition waay harder than it should be is a large part of why we need to in the first place. Not that we shouldn't be able to, either way...I'm all for body modification. Just that it shouldn't feel like life or death.

Go ahead..read that, get your rage up, react instead of listening. I'll wait.

You're point entirely rests on the premise (in bold) that gender norms induce dysphoria in trans people as a category.  You're projecting a personal truth onto others as a universal truth.