What system are we talking about taking on? I am blonde so work with me. Are we taking on society? Healthcare? Personal opinion? I am confused. I am not sure who we are taking on.

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 09:54:15 PM
Well, personally, I think you should change everything you want and only what you want. You also shouldn't be made to change things you don't want... and that can happen in a lot of ways. Thru explicit or imagined pressure from other people, thru legal or medical standards that you are forced to comply with but don't fit you, or thru judgments you make about yourself because of internalized gender roles. It is really awesome when you can have the transition that gives you everything you want. But, not everybody can, because not every transition, or every personal change, is considered legitimate by our society. Our views of gender force people into boxes, even force people to put themselves in a box, like how you have to become legally male even though you are polygender. And I think as you socialize more as a male, you may find other ways in which the binary tries to force you to give up your own ideas and assimilate. It is inescapable in the current world, anywhere. It is inescapable even just cuz those standards exist and you are aware of them, which can change how you feel about yourself even just a little bit.

Again, it's great for the people it works for.. but it only works for some people, and it is very harmful to others. It's just like how women are beaten with messages to be thin and pretty. Some women manage to still have self confidence, but there is still a serious effect in that many women internalize those ideas and become depressive, disordered or suicidal when they wouldn't be otherwise. It's just irresponsible for people to say, it works for me, so we don't need to change it, it's not wrong. You know?

well society certainly tried to get me to assimilate but that never worked. Off and on I would bend to the pressures and try, but never for very long.  I suspect that will be true on this side of the spectrum too. I'd love to say I'll never have any moments where I give in to pressure, but I know that's mighty hard. The thing is, this isn't a race with a finish line. It's a journey. As we travel, we are able to adjust what direction we are going.

From my end here's what's happening. Using your example of western society's F'ed up messages about women being thin and beautiful. You are saying this pressure to be a thin beautiful woman is super harmful and no woman should try to be thin or beautiful. Most everybody here is agreeing that the idea that the only good way to be thin and beautiful is wrong, but some folks are saying "I was born thin and beautiful" and feeling like they are being judged for that. so people are fundamentally agreeing with each other, but feeling attacked.

Well, I do think one thing we can do is be cautious before recommending someone transition nor should we ever really do that.  It really isn't needed or helpful in every case.  It's true that some people feel pressured into doing so, and that's not right.  I don't think that's a big issue here, but I do see some comments that probably should have been more cautious.  That's a part where WE can take responsibility and try to make things better.  Transition doesn't have to be the only solution if it's not needed or desired in any capacity by a member.  We can support our own transition without needing to act like it's the only cure, it's more of an individual one.  Again, I don't think most people do this here, but it happens and I support us being careful before pushing anyone one way or the other.   Make sure that we support everyone here rather than one group. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 05, 2014, 09:58:03 PM
And to make this productive, what can we all do to simultaneously support one another? How can we turn this into something productive where I can support you, you can support me and the world can support all of us? I'm up for solutions that allow this and sure all of us are too.  I realize the system is part of the problem, so how do we change the system and be able to support each other?

All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.

People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps!

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.

People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps!

If we stop all this we might as well shut this site down. People come here to ask our opinions and get advice and support. If they ask and get no opinions why are we here? You have not left anything for us to talk about. If someone asks our opinion should we say go away I am not answering?

I personally do not see anyone here giving out malicious or damaging advice. People ask, we answer as to our experiences. What they do with that advice is totally up to them.

Quote from: christopher on May 05, 2014, 10:17:51 PM
well society certainly tried to get me to assimilate but that never worked. Off and on I would bend to the pressures and try, but never for very long.  I suspect that will be true on this side of the spectrum too. I'd love to say I'll never have any moments where I give in to pressure, but I know that's mighty hard. The thing is, this isn't a race with a finish line. It's a journey. As we travel, we are able to adjust what direction we are going.

From my end here's what's happening. Using your example of western society's F'ed up messages about women being thin and beautiful. You are saying this pressure to be a thin beautiful woman is super harmful and no woman should try to be thin or beautiful. Most everybody here is agreeing that the idea that the only good way to be thin and beautiful is wrong, but some folks are saying "I was born thin and beautiful" and feeling like they are being judged for that. so people are fundamentally agreeing with each other, but feeling attacked.

Well, for example, saying I want to be thin and beautiful is fine, but saying I don't feel like a woman if I am not thin and beautiful is not great. Cuz that reinforces a gender stereotype about what a woman should be. It's bad for us to link our own gendrr, sexuality, body and stuff, to norms that exclude people. That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it. I'm not attacking anybody though, definitely not! I want everyone to be happy and to help other people be happy and love themselves.

Quote from: Jessica MerrimanWhat system are we talking about taking on? I am blonde so work with me. Are we taking on society? Healthcare? Personal opinion? I am confused. I am not sure who we are taking on.

In many people's minds, all of the above, all at once... which is a bit of a tall order. I wonder if part of the problem is that many of us have been brought up to believe that we are entitled to whatever we want, right now. Just because we may not buy into the binary doesn't mean that we're automatically immune to that sort of "consumerist" mentality.

But change is a slow process, and needs to be taken in small chunks. Take the healthcare system as an exanple: things are changing. At my clinic, they take pains to welcome folks whose identities don't fit the binary model and treat them appropriately. Some of the staff are non-binary folks themselves. About the first question my doc asked me about starting on hormones was, "What are your goals? Do you want to go for full masculinization, or are you aiming for a more androgynous presentation?"

It's frustrating when people treat you badly and cause you pain because they're hostile or just don't "get it." But you can create tiny increments of change just by insisting on who you are, as much as is possible for you. In the meantime... yeah, you may have to compromise a bit. But change happens, eventually.

Quote from: sad pandaIt's bad for us to link our own gendrr, sexuality, body and stuff, to norms that exclude people. That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it.

This. We do need solidarity among ourselves. "Divide and conquer" is an ancient strategy, and we'd be fools to allow ourselves to be divided from one another so much that we don't offer mutual support. If we can't support each other, who will support us?

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:33:19 PM
That validates and reinfects people with those norms, and it does happen here a lot, in small ways or big ways, cuz it's so hard to avoid, but if you really think about it you don't have to encourage it.

An example of this here would be...................................

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.

People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps!

So what you're saying is everyone has to confirm to your standard and ideals, regardless of whether or not that works for them?  I mean yeah, your method is great, "be yourself"  The problem is the automatic dismissal of so many people's being themselves because in your opinion, who they are is impossible.

Am I saying that everyone fits that bill?  No.  You can be fully right about it for many.  But not all.  Never all.  However, you dismiss all as impossible, and force them all to a whole other standard instead of letting them actually say "this is who I am"

Let them be who they are, who they say they are and want to be.  Don't force them into your box just because you think they are following the pied piper into a different box that you don't agree with.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 10:25:19 PM
If we stop all this we might as well shut this site down. People come here to ask our opinions and get advice and support. If they ask and get no opinions why are we here? You have not left anything for us to talk about. If someone asks our opinion should we say go away I am not answering?

I personally do not see anyone here giving out malicious or damaging advice. People ask, we answer as to our experiences. What they do with that advice is totally up to them.

Again, it is possible to give advice that is helpful and does not uphold stereotypes and the binary and transition or die and things like that. Just because you have the freedom to give whatever advice you want, doesn't mean that some advice is not more hurtful than others.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 05, 2014, 10:38:57 PM
An example of this here would be...................................

Like, I was told here that I'm too beautiful to present as a boy (also, in another thread that I don't act like a boy) The advice giver didn't mean anything bad, I'm sure, but it was not constructive, and it reinforced a stereotype about how a boy is supposed to look. Just because i can ignore that advice, doesn't mean it was worth saying in the first place. The more of an environment of unacceptance or binary-normativity there is, the more people will feel that they can't be accepted as they are, that they have to change themselves to fit in. I am a boy, so telling me I am too beautiful to present as one is hurtful. It implies that I should change my identity, or change my presentation, because I am not acceptable as I am.

Also frankly I am getting pretty uncomfortable from your hostility, Jessica, so if you have a problem with me personally, can you please PM me?

Do you have a Therapist? That is not meant any other way except they could get to the bottom of what is troubling you. If I am correct here you asked a question, got an answer, felt offended and cant let it go. Am I right or off base here?

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
All anyone can do is stop believing in it and stop encouraging it. When you give opinions and advice, ask yourself if it is tailored to the other party or if you are enforcing gender roles and stereotypes. Refuse to stereotype yourself or act like you gain validity from being aligned with the binary, from being masculine or feminine, a certain sexuality, a certain body image or a certain identity. Refuse to judge yourself or other people by how well you do and don't fit into the binary or other people's ideas of what makes a man or a woman or anything in between. Refuse to use one size fits all terminology that reinforces the binary. Refuse to tell people how they should feel about their gender, body, personality or social role, or how they should change any of those things. Refuse to assume or imply what they want.

People may not think they do these things, but the binary exists because they do actually do them all the time. It's subtle but it is important and it can't change until people stop believing in it. Hope that helps!

Well, I'm sorry sad panda if you feel this has been done to you while you have been here.  On my part, I will apologize for any personal short comings and will reflect on these these things.  Sorry you felt pigeonheld into the binary.  Seriously, if you felt that from me, I will say sorry and the same thing to Abby.

All I can say is that my own judgement of  myself is a much different thing.   To be honest, I can only be who I am or say how I feel about myself.  I can't lie to make other people feel better.  If something truely upsets me about my body or life, it's going to upset me. If I really feel something, I'm not going to change it in order to make people feel better.  We all have different views, beliefs and triggers.  That's part of what makes us a diverse community and that's a better thing in the end.  No one is better or worse for being anything.  And I can't change who I am nor should I in the end.  The same goes for you and everyone else. Judgement of all kind needs to be stopped here. Though I caught the ending and see what's really being said. 

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 05, 2014, 10:39:16 PM
So what you're saying is everyone has to confirm to your standard and ideals, regardless of whether or not that works for them?  I mean yeah, your method is great, "be yourself"  The problem is the automatic dismissal of so many people's being themselves because in your opinion, who they are is impossible.

Am I saying that everyone fits that bill?  No.  You can be fully right about it for many.  But not all.  Never all.  However, you dismiss all as impossible, and force them all to a whole other standard instead of letting them actually say "this is who I am"

Let them be who they are, who they say they are and want to be.  Don't force them into your box just because you think they are following the pied piper into a different box that you don't agree with.

I'm sorry Colleen but I think you are misunderstanding my point. :S I want everyone to be who they are, that doesn't mean they can't be careful to avoid reinforcing gender stereotypes and binary-only thinking.

Topic locked.

Quote from: sad panda on May 05, 2014, 10:47:10 PM
Again, it is possible to give advice that is helpful and does not uphold stereotypes and the binary and transition or die and things like that. Just because you have the freedom to give whatever advice you want, doesn't mean that some advice is not more hurtful than others.

Like, I was told here that I'm too beautiful to present as a boy (also, in another thread that I don't act like a boy) The advice giver didn't mean anything bad, I'm sure, but it was not constructive, and it reinforced a stereotype about how a boy is supposed to look. Just because i can ignore that advice, doesn't mean it was worth saying in the first place. The more of an environment of unacceptance or binary-normativity there is, the more people will feel that they can't be accepted as they are, that they have to change themselves to fit in. I am a boy, so telling me I am too beautiful to present as one is hurtful. It implies that I should change my identity, or change my presentation, because I am not acceptable as I am.

Also frankly I am getting pretty uncomfortable from your hostility, Jessica, so if you have a problem with me personally, can you please PM me?

The thing is, I do see what you're saying and where you are coming from.  And yes, people should be accept as they are if that's who they are.  But the way it keeps sounding like in many posts by more than just you is that if you don't accept yourself as is, and decide to transition, to change themselves to be who they feel they are, then they are feeding the binary and playing into stereotypes.

Because it sounds to me as if in your opinion, body and social issues caused by the binary are the only reasons for the dysphoria, and in a better society no one would chose to transition because they they wouldn't mind having an overtly male body as long as they can wear whatever clothes they want.  That a real disconnect between the body and the mind and the pain it causes doesn't exist, it's merely a byproduct of society.  And if anyone of us says differently, because that's true for us, we're wrong and playing into the stereotype and binary automatically.

Which is to say, what you're doing by that is no different than you being told you're too pretty to be a boy.  Invalidating a person's experiences and right to define themselves by holding them to a new standard, and saying they're wrong if they don't conform to it.

Maybe you aren't saying that  But time and time again posts seem to suggest that anyone who feels they couldn't be happy with their untransitioned body is automatically part of the problem.

Topic got locked, but don't want you to be unable to reply or defend your pov, so feel free to pm me to reply.