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You can't be Female / Male if you don't get SRS - GRS Whatever

Started by Lana P, January 09, 2014, 11:26:27 AM

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Elegant_Evelyn

I honestly can say i have my own prejudices in the community. >:-)
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Natkat

Quote from: gowiththeflow on February 18, 2014, 06:58:05 PM
Yeah we all have things we don't understand and that can make it hard to understand others
I usunally think of it like people born with diffrent handicaps

Theres many guys who can't imagine not having a penis, or if an FTM ask a guy "wouldn't you also undergo surgery if you didn't had a penis" they probably would answer yes. But this also due to the fact these guys are used to having a penis and they don't know what it like not to have one.

the same can go for if someone asked me if I would have my left arm back if I got it cut off, I would sure say yes cause im used to having both arms, but for someone who is born with only 1 arm, they may had gotten used to it being like that and not feeling it nessesarry to have 2 while others would like to have an extra arm transplanted.


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MariaMx

SRS was the least important part of my transition. I had done HRT, FFS and my social transition was long over, so when it came time to have SRS it was something I just did without giving it much thought.

I've encountered such people that think they are superior to others because they had SRS. However, lack of SRS isn't the only thing that is being used as a tool of oppression and shaming against those who lack a certain property that is deemed essential to being a woman (I don't know if something similar is going on in the ftm camp or not).  Off the top of my head, here's a short list of things that allegedly indicate that one is really nothing but a man playing dress-up:

* Having a good job.
* Having more hair on the body than the average woman.
* Having a large head.
* Having an education.
* Not having been beat up or bullied for being effeminate as a child.
* Having kids.
* Having an intelligence above average.
* Having skills.
* Playing the guitar.
* Having been in a relationship with a woman.
* Liking sports
* Being self-confident, assertive and capable.
* Having transitioned above the age of x (x being the age they themselves transitioned at).

The list goes on and I've even seen such claims made on this site numerous times. It bothers me a great deal when I hear or see people say such things. It is as if they are claiming that in order to be a woman you have to be inferior to a man o_O

I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far. Basically we are nothing but male interloper out to oppress women from the inside. But of course, such thinking is extremely transparent to anyone who is even one IQ-point above average. It's how they legitimize and justify their own womanhood. They are too insecure about themselves to do that on the merits of who they are as a person, so they have to prop up their egos at the expense of others. They have to crap all over everyone else in order to survive, because how they feel about themselves on the inside just isn't enough on it's own.

There was once a time long ago when I held similar beliefs. I was scared and insecure, so I would collect all the things I saw as positive in myself and declare them essential to being a woman. Over the years though, as I have gain REAL life experience as a woman. I have come to realize that such nonsense is utter crap. If your person(ality) isn't up to snuff, then do something about it! Better yourself as a person instead of just dumping all over everyone else. Seriously, you're just embarrassing yourselves, because most people can see right through it. On the other hand, if you like being seen as a pompous spiteful bitter old person with a superiority complex, then by all means, go right ahead and keep up your childish nonsense. Personally I am too far developed as a person to fall for these cheap master-suppression techniques. 

(Should my post contain the wrong words in the wrong places, chalk it up to auto-mistake being engaged on my mobile device).
"Of course!"
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katiej

Quote from: MariaMx on February 23, 2014, 04:58:55 AM
* Having a good job.
* Having more hair on the body than the average woman.
* Having a large head.
* Having an education.
* Not having been beat up or bullied for being effeminate as a child.
* Having kids.
* Having an intelligence above average.
* Having skills.
* Playing the guitar.
* Having been in a relationship with a woman.
* Liking sports
* Being self-confident, assertive and capable.
* Having transitioned above the age of x (x being the age they themselves transitioned at).

Maria, you basically just described me in bullet form.  It's uncanny!  :)

Honestly, this is something that kept me from transitioning earlier in life.  I haven't HATED every minute of being a guy, and I don't have the tragic story that so many trans people have had.  And I've heard a lot of them say that their only options were transition or death.  Transition or death?  Really?  I'm just not that dramatic about anything in life.  So for the longest time I felt like I couldn't really be transgender.

It seems like for many, SRS signals the end of transition.  And many who had been active in the trans community start to distance themselves and move on.  I can understand why that would be difficult for the activists to identify with.  They're fighting to defend our place in society...fighting against the standard definitions of gender.  They're activists.  And God bless them.  I'm just not that, but I do understand their difficulty with those of us who want to transition and go stealth as soon as possible.  For me, transition is a means to an end.  I don't want to be trans...I want to be a woman. The universe put me in a sticky situation, but I'm going to do my best to get through it.  And chromosomes aside, I intend to move on in every other way.

And of course having a vagina is one of the things I'm most looking forward to.  :)
"Before I do anything I ask myself would an idiot do that? And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." --Dwight Schrute
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Shantel

Quote from: MariaMx on February 23, 2014, 04:58:55 AM

I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far. Basically we are nothing but male interloper out to oppress women from the inside. But of course, such thinking is extremely transparent to anyone who is even one IQ-point above average. It's how they legitimize and justify their own womanhood. They are too insecure about themselves to do that on the merits of who they are as a person, so they have to prop up their egos at the expense of others. They have to crap all over everyone else in order to survive, because how they feel about themselves on the inside just isn't enough on it's own.


This reminds me of a hand shake when an alpha-male grips the other's hand like a vise and then puts his thumb down hard on the other's thumb thus trapping it and asserting dominance. It's the same behavioral stuff as you have cited above, that drive for dominance that they have not let go of and it's really quite pathetic and pitiable!
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Jenna Marie

Maria, you are so very right. Especially this : "I have noticed how certain individuals  are completely dependent on drawing a tight circle around their own feet and declare anyone on the outside as a man who took his cross dressing fetch too far."

Personally, I think we have to accept that anyone who identifies as a given gender (or lack thereof) is the only expert on their own existence... because the alternative is to draw lines that allow the cis population to declare that we ourselves are fakes and liars who don't deserve rights. As soon as we say "There is a way to tell the True Transsexuals from the rest," we've established the precedent that will allow others to class us with "the rest."
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snapfie

Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!


I'm a post-op TS woman in Malaysia, though I've had my SRS, AM & FFS, I'm not allowed to have my new gender and name changed on my ID card or passport. I'm being denied basic human rights, I got to know thru Internet that many countries allow their citizens who have had SRS to have their new gender and name updated on ID cards and passports and other legal documents including Iran an Islamic country, why on earth doesn't the Malaysian government legally recognize my female status??? Do you know how much stress I'm under? My appearance says I'm female but my identity card and passport say I'm MALE OMG!!! Thanks to the Malaysian governtment, because my ID card says I'm male, I get rejected when seeking employment, so I'm being forced to be a sex worker, but it's illegal engaging in sex work in Malaysia..Does Malaysia government want to force me to commit suicide or something??? Am I still being regarded as a human???
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Kyra553

Quote from: FlightyBrood on February 18, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
Admittedly I looked down on people (never to their face) on FtMs that didnt want top surgery until like last week. Right before I was going in to get mine done!

I didn't get why someone would want to have boobs if they identified as male...but there's a certain comfort in the body you were born with. It's always been that way, you're used to the way things are. Weird how outlooks can change so quickly.

Its the same for a mtf, walking in and knowing your about to have your lower parts chopped and rearranged isnt exactly pleasing to think about.
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Missy~rmdlm

Quote from: snapfie on April 02, 2014, 06:07:33 PM
Quote from: Emmaline on January 14, 2014, 05:14:11 PM
In Australia at the time of writing this I cannot change my gender markers unless I have had surgery.   It is the extreme expression of this view.

With the thugs in power right now I don't see it changing any time soon. 

Dennis the peasant:  Help,  help!  I am being repressed!


I'm a post-op TS woman in Malaysia, though I've had my SRS, AM & FFS, I'm not allowed to have my new gender and name changed on my ID card or passport. I'm being denied basic human rights, I got to know thru Internet that many countries allow their citizens who have had SRS to have their new gender and name updated on ID cards and passports and other legal documents including Iran an Islamic country, why on earth doesn't the Malaysian government legally recognize my female status??? Do you know how much stress I'm under? My appearance says I'm female but my identity card and passport say I'm MALE OMG!!! Thanks to the Malaysian governtment, because my ID card says I'm male, I get rejected when seeking employment, so I'm being forced to be a sex worker, but it's illegal engaging in sex work in Malaysia..Does Malaysia government want to force me to commit suicide or something??? Am I still being regarded as a human???
Ditto with Indians and Thais from what I understand. I'm not sure why but there is a cluster of countries there that are stubborn about changing official identifications. My own state and country (Missouri, United States) are not considered particularly forward thinking, yet a few hoops later ID's can routinely be changed. I've already done mine and as shown, my visit to Dr Bowers is in the near future. I think one difference is dang near -anything- can be argued in court in these litigious United States.
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Miyah48

To me its more of the feeling inside that counts. you dont have to get srs if u dont want to. If u do cool beans. If you dont cool beans.

Plus people only like to tell the good stories of srs imo. Who wants to hear the negative ones,  not people who want srs that for damn sure.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication
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Agent_J

Quote from: Miyah48 on April 03, 2014, 01:59:46 PM
Plus people only like to tell the good stories of srs imo. Who wants to hear the negative ones,  not people who want srs that for damn sure.

Those who have bad experiences, either with results of SRS or just with having had SRS, are often ostracized from trans communities. I've been banned from several online for that reason.
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Miyah48

Quote from: Agent_J on April 03, 2014, 02:51:40 PM
Those who have bad experiences, either with results of SRS or just with having had SRS, are often ostracized from trans communities. I've been banned from several online for that reason.

I just had to come up with a word for tht. It is Rediculousness
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication
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Seyranna

IF you seek to modify secondary sex characteristics you are a transsexual regardless of which genitals you have. A non-OP transsexual can very well identify as target gender without having genital dysphoria. I never understood why people spit on adaptability as if not being miserable and not want to chop off your outie every time you shower makes you less of a woman.

Heck I'm not even binary identified I identify as polygender, had next to zero genital dysphoria, had kids and still got SRS. Bite me.
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Donna Elvira

Just came across this interesting thread which seems to have petered out a few weeks ago. First thing I noted was how civil it remained in spite of the passions this subject rather strangely tends to release.

Anyway as a very pragmatic late transitioner (amazing how pragmatic we tend to become about everything with age..  :)) I'm yet another one of those who comes down on the side of personal choice ie. you do GRS if you feel the need to do it and have the means to follow through, you don't do it if you can't answer yes to both of the preceeding conditions. GRS does not define your female identity but may provide a more comfortable existance living openly with that identity, especially if you are into guys. (Nota: I'm not and am very happily married with a woman who accepts me as I am)

I'm also one of those who believes GRS is about the very last step to undertake in a transition, when you are absolutely sure that you are comfortable with your life as a woman ie. after a successful social transition.

The major steps in my own transition by order were, HRT, FFS , fulltime in my private life, full time in all dimensions of my life, all of that over a period of almost 5 years.  Until I had transitioned socially, I hardly gave a thought to GRS, my priority of priorities was succeeding the social transition. However, now that I am living full time with a Civil Identity Change procedure going through the French legal system (still very complex with no certainty about the outcome unless you have done GRS), the subject has become far more important.

The catalyst for a big change in my own needs was filing for my Civil Identity Change which goes far beyond a name change. Assuming it comes through, every official document which concerns me from my birth certificate through to my mariage licence, social security card, passport etc.. wil be changed with an F replacing the M. Thinking about that, I just didn't see myself living out the rest of my life, legally a woman, with such a visible vestige of my former life still hanging around (excuse the pun  ;))

There are also simple practical issues like being able to undress in public, not having to tuck, being able to wear absolutely any sorts of clothes I want etc.. and closely associated with this, some esthetic issues... I far prefer the appearance of a female crotch to a male crotch.

Lastly, as my Civil Identity Change has still not been processed almost 8 months since I made the filing and I really need to get this sorted out, doing GRS should remain any possible obstacle to getting a favorable decision.   

These were all the reasons for doing GRS, counter balanced until recently by a whole series of obstacles, most important of which were getting the necessary time off from work and my fear of the surgery itself, especially coming quite soon after an already heavy schedule of surgery almost every year since 2011

Since I am out of work at the end of July and want to be absolutely certain that my transition is completely over before getting into my next professional activity, the decision to do GRS  recently fell like a ripe fruit. It was just obvious that the time had come to get it done and so it will be, this coming August.

I'd like to think that we should all be able to go about GRS in this manner, the need coming from inside rather than outside (while admitting that what comes from inside is nevertheless very often driven from outside..).

Today, to feel fully comfortable living out the rest of my life as a woman, I do feel the need to do GRS but 12 months ago I wouldn't have said the same thing and would certainly have resented being told by anyone that I somehow didn't qualify as TG because of this.

In my eyes, anyone whose gender identity is significantly different to that associated with their biological sex is transgender . How they chose to live out that reality is down to their personal choice and the practical issues  they have to deal with in their own unique circomstances.

My 2 c's worth et bon dimanche!
Donna

 
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@Diana

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on April 02, 2014, 08:06:24 PM

Ditto with Indians and Thais from what I understand. I'm not sure why but there is a cluster of countries there that are stubborn about changing official identifications. My own state and country (Missouri, United States) are not considered particularly forward thinking, yet a few hoops later ID's can routinely be changed. I've already done mine and as shown, my visit to Dr Bowers is in the near future. I think one difference is dang near -anything- can be argued in court in these litigious United States.

yes still be Mr. on my Thai passport .. & Thai identification card & Thai driving license ..
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aleon515

There's a huge amount of judgmental attitudes in the trans community many times directed towards other trans people. There is a thread going on in the FTM forum right now which looks somewhat similar. Basically there the idea that certain types of thinking or behavior are required to be transgender. There are no rules like this. I believe this sort of attitude is either ignorant (not knowing that much about transgender) or antagonist (I know but I don't care I'm going to make up my own rules). The transgender umbrella is very large. The notion of some kind of gentalia determining who is what gender? Well were you are a girl (if you are MTF) at whatever age you were when you figured out you were a girl? What about some female with cancer who has had a vaginectomy? What about a guy who has lost his penis during war or accidents?

This stuff just ticks me off. Sorry, rant mode off.

--Jay
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Felix

I have mostly stopped even answering direct questions about my genitalia. It's not anyone's business and has nothing to do with whether I am a "real" man or woman.

Even when it is socially awkard (I'm not perfect) I try very hard to respect everyone's stated gender. If a person with breasts says he's a guy or a person with a beard says she's a girl, that is up to them and not any different than my being a man who has given birth to a child. I'm desperate for people to treat me like a normal guy when they aren't already, and I am sure everyone else also wants to be treated like the person they know they are.

Getting criticism about surgeries is pure ignorance from cispeople, and unhealthy defensiveness from transpeople.
everybody's house is haunted
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Shantel

Aleon and Felix, such good comments and I am on the same page with you and am forever consoling those who for some peer group or group think reason that they have to have SRS to be real and they lament endlessly over this when I am compelled to point out that unless they plan to be a porn star, no-one will ever have to know anything about what type of genitalia they happen to possess. I say this because so many just don't have the financial resources or are morbidly afraid of such invasive surgery and it's possible outcomes. I want to introduce the idea to them that if it's not broken don't fix it! I know there are many who have pure loathing for their genitalia and are absolutely driven to change it and so be it, more power to them, but it is wrong and patently evil to insist that as long as you have a wart on your nose everybody else should have one before they can be a real witch.
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aleon515

Quote from: Shantel on May 13, 2014, 10:02:55 AM
Aleon and Felix, such good comments and I am on the same page with you and am forever consoling those who for some peer group or group think reason that they have to have SRS to be real and they lament endlessly over this when I am compelled to point out that unless they plan to be a porn star, no-one will ever have to know anything about what type of genitalia they happen to possess. I say this because so many just don't have the financial resources or are morbidly afraid of such invasive surgery and it's possible outcomes. I want to introduce the idea to them that if it's not broken don't fix it! I know there are many who have pure loathing for their genitalia and are absolutely driven to change it and so be it, more power to them, but it is wrong and patently evil to insist that as long as you have a wart on your nose everybody else should have one before they can be a real witch.

Thanks! :) I believe a lot of these views are based on ignorance that gender identity and sex assigned at birth are one in the same. Once you understand that this is not the case you can make your own decisions. If someone feels they need surgery for other reasons, that's another matter. But to do it due to prejudices in our own community seems uniquely mean. Keep your pants up or your skirt down, I mean who is looking really?

--Jay
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Jill F

Why is it that so many people can't wrap their pea brains around the fact that gender is between your ears and not your legs?

Several years ago, before I even began to think about transition as a remote possibility, some ignoranus (Jill-ism intended) co-worker went on a rant about his disgust for transgender women and said that if you have a penis, you are a man, end of story.   I had to ask him that if he had his junk chomped off if he would suddenly identify as a woman.
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