I read in WPATH that genderqueer people can transition, does this also apply to Australia??

My therapist has suggested that I might be a little more genderqueer than MTF several times.. He's a little more right about that than I'll admit to.

So I guess some Aussie therapists are open to the idea..

I don't see why not, especially if you believe transition would improve your standard of life and self image. You would probably need to convince them though.

I'm sorry if this seems insensitive or offensive... but I'm curious why someone who identifies as, 'genderqueer' would want to transition from one gender to the other, especially considering the premise of being, 'genderqueer' meaning they don't identify with either gender that they'd then transition to?

Quote from: teeg on May 27, 2014, 06:42:50 PM
I'm sorry if this seems insensitive or offensive... but I'm curious why someone who identifies as, 'genderqueer' would want to transition from one gender to the other, especially considering the premise of being, 'genderqueer' meaning they don't identify with either gender that they'd then transition to?

Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum..

Just because I don't fit the somewhat narrow definition of transsexual doesn't mean I don't need medical assistance.

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 27, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum.

That's a good explanation, Kelly.  Those with more fluid genders can still hover around one end of the gender spectrum - e.g. those who identify as somewhere between female and androgynous on any given day, rather than simply oscillating between male and female.  Add into the mix the concept that a MtF may experience some fluidity too and it's not unreasonable to encounter people who were born guys but are really girls who flit from female to something close to female.

Yeah, you explained it far better.  It does get confusing.

Exactly what they said.
I don't really identify as any specific gender, however, I fall a lot closer to female if you want to put a label on it.
There are just days when I prefer to be in "boy" mode.

Thanks for the replies girls

Freyjja

Short answer is that yes a competent  endo in Oz will help a tg person who is seeking to achieve an authentic expression of their identity whether gq or otherwise.  In fact they will work with you and provide you with some discretion as to how you may vary your hrt to achieve the result that you desire.  This enables you to avoid a binary outcome which may take you out of your comfort zone and bring you a whole lot more distress or discomfort.

Aisla

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 27, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Because reagrdless of our identities, we might feel more comfortable being closer to something other than their birth sex. Genderqueer people do still suffer from dysphoria. I'm genderqueer, but am far, far more comfortable in who I am by being more to the female end of the spectrum..

Just because I don't fit the somewhat narrow definition of transsexual doesn't mean I don't need medical assistance.

Yup, wonderful explanation . I consider androgyne rather than genderqueer, but I found that HRT has significantly reduced my GD, by allowing to feel and express my core identity which is female. I turned out during transition – and quite unexpectedly – that I actually dont mind having a bit of masculine identity as long as ,,he" is kept in check and behaves properly.  Any attempts to get rid of that part caused lots of distress and anguish, so eventually I just accepted being somewhere on the non-binary spectrum. But those results would never be achieved without transition as such.

I am totally screwed without hormones.  It is needed, and it is on my letter, along with not fitting the binary definitions.

No worries.  Some of us need hormones regardless of presentations.  Plural. 

Without them, I am in deep psychological trouble.

I am in the states, not bad over here to be GQ and get what is needed.

Enjoy

I was talking to my endo about another matter which fits into a WPATH grey area, and he said that in Australia they are guidelines not law- there is a lot of wiggle room so long as it is in the patients best interest.

If your brain is only partially masculinized in utero it makes sense that you may benefit from having higher than male estrogen levels in your system.

Where in Australia are you?

Quote from: Satinjoy on May 29, 2014, 03:21:58 PMIt is needed, and it is on my letter, along with not fitting the binary definitions.

Without them, I am in deep psychological trouble.

To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?

Quote from: Emmaline on May 29, 2014, 07:49:02 PMIf your brain is only partially masculinized in utero it makes sense that you may benefit from having higher than male estrogen levels in your system.

Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.

teeg

If you identify as non binary then adding a little E here and Spiro there is exactly what you do do to relieve your intense dysphoria.  The intent here is to address the dysphoria that any tg person feels but in this case this dysphoria relates to an identity (emotional, physical, and spiritual) which is neither 100 per cent male nor 100 per cent female.  We are not talking the pursuit of a binarised presentation - in fact, the contrary is sought and is necessary for those who don't fit neatly into the little boxes marked male and female.  Its disappointing that binary thinking could impact someone's awareness of appropriate and quite safe, when supervised, treatment.  This is not just common practice it is regarded as best practice for the therapy of non binary identified individuals.   

Aisla

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?

My case is a little different. Initially I was sure I was a woman.. Time and life experience have taught me different. It was my therapist who made the suggestion I was more genderqueer than MtF initially, a suggestion I scoffed at and denied at the time. A year later and I realised he'd been right. My therapist, gyno and I have had a discussion about changing my hormones, but stopping them never came up. In the end, no changes were made. I take hormones because I have a brain that runs much better when it has estrogen to work with. I'm also happier with a more feminine presentation. I have a preference for female pronouns.. But I won't rip your head off for salling me sir.

QuoteWomen have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.

The binary thinking in this astounds me.. I'm well aware of the risks, probably better than most. I take hormones because they are what I need. They've helped quell the depression that has haunted me my whole life - far better than any medication I'd been prescribed in the past. And like I said, my brain just runs better on estrogen.

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available (snip)

Only concerning to the one who is color blind to the point where there is active denial of boxes (genders) that aren't in the colors "pink" and "blue" (male and female). Time to not just think outside the binary but use the boxes as cat beds.

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason.

Never assume either the biology or the gender characteristics of other humans. You've failed two for two so far. If a person with non-binary identity wants to accept the physical risk of hormone therapy, it's their choice.

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.

Hi there dear-

Yes I am non binary, yes I have a very complicated diagnosis, and yes I need hormones.  On Testosterone I am manic, depressed, anxious, insane, on the edge of meltdown, driven, and extremely dysphoric.

On Estrogen and I have very little T left due to meds, on E I am calm, focussed, relaxed, brilliant (brain fires better), able to concentrate longer, and I feel physically great, and my dysphoria becomes relaxing and not overbearing.

So physically, that is the end on that one.  Mentally, I am quite happy - real happy, sustained, for the first time in nearly a half century - and I am convinced that it is because of the estrogen receptors in my brain and elsewhere, and my God given design for living and health.

On the mental side, I am fluid.  I can be male, female, anything in the middle, depending on social circumstances.  My body is wired totally female sexually and perceptually.  Yet I maintain a male GQ appearance, the only give away is my nails when I work.  And I am comfortable with that.  I am amuzed at the application of the male female extremes to myself, because they are false.  And after 15 months of therapy and help at Susans, I am quite mentally healthy as a GQ transsexual.  It is a totally honest place, genuine, authentic, without deception of any kind. 

So the short answer is, it would be unethical not to treat me with hormones, it would be unethical to force FTE with its dire familial consequences in my case, and I prefer hormones to death. 

I was fortunate to have a gender therapist and an endo who both have 40 years experience treating all forms of trans.

My suggestion would be that you get the best one you can buy, as the real danger of transition is self deception, which frankly can kill you.  I have been down that road, I have escaped it, and i will not return to it, all because of denying the male components, and a huge desire for acceptance in the mtf community.  The funny thing is that I have that acceptance now.

Too much about me here.  I just hope it can help.  Our cases are all different, complicated, and with different stakes involved.

Also my definition of transition is that I have a female body with no surgeries now and that is the full transition FOR ME.  It cannot be argued that I am not mtf transexual without disqualifying every preop/no op in here, BUT it CAN be argued that I am not a complete woman soul living in a mans body, because I am not.  I am a free neutral spirit.  The body is a house I live in and enjoy, and I have the right to design it to where I feel comforable, happy, and have a safe nurtuting environment for me, all under the outerwear. Look beneath the surface clothing and you have - good luck with that one -  .  Unique beauty and quite the woman. 

When I do present fully I am a knock-out androgyne GQ TS.  I worked hard to get there.

I am happy.  I am comfortable in my own body and socially.  Isn't that the goal of all responsible therapy and endo treatment?

God Bless your journey Teeg, may it fulfill you needs and joys.  And same to all here.

Quote from: teeg on May 29, 2014, 09:25:20 PM
To me this is extremely confusing and concerning. If someone is a more feminine male, or a more masculine female, this I can understand. I don't understand how someone could logically say they are neither female nor male when these are the only two options available, and more importantly how physicians could ethically prescribe either male or female hormones to a patient who says they don't feel male nor female... I'd be concerned for the patient's mental and physical health upon the administration of hormones. If one thinks they are not a female, but wants to take female hormones which will turn their body into a female's, or thinks they are not a male, but wants to take male hormones which will turn their body into a male's, how will this help anything?
Women have estrogen only for a reason -- men have testosterone for a reason. You can't start adding a little estrogen here and there unless you're indifferent to probably experiencing Gynecomastia, infertility, stroke risk, cardiac risk, prostate issues, weight gain, low sex drive, and probably more than I can't remember. It's unfortunate that so many people seem to underestimate the seriousness of hormonal effects on the body and seem to think that this is something that can be played around with.

A) Gender doesn't equal sex.  There are only two basic options for sex, male or female, and when someone is born somewhere between the two they are quickly assigned one or the other.  Many non-western cultures though, do in fact allow for more than two genders.  In some older cultures those not fitting the binary were held in higher esteem. 

B) All women have Testosterone and Estrogen.  It is not ONLY Estrogen.  Women have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone than men.  All men have Testosterone and Estrogen.  It is not ONLY Testosterone.  In fact, leave testosterone in the system long enough, and it will convert itself to estrogen.  Men have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen than women.  Both estrogen and testosterone are produced by the gonads (testes in men, and ovaries in women) and the adrenal glands. 

So, it's not so much the black and white picture you are presenting.  For someone that doesn't feel either male or female, finding a hormonal balance between testosterone and estrogen that works for them is just as key as it would be for someone who identifies as male or female.  For a non-binary person born and assigned male, that means lowering testosterone levels and raising estrogen levels.  For a non-binary person born and assigned female, that means lowering estrogen levels and raising testosterone levels.

Because both estrogen and testosterone are required, and present in our bodies, no matter who you are.  It's not estrogen is for females and testosterone is for males and that's it.  It's a balance between the two hormones in the body, and it's that balance that differs by sex.  Adjusting the balance to suit the person's needs allows for more than just male hormone balance or female hormone balance.

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 30, 2014, 12:48:21 AM

My case is a little different. Initially I was sure I was a woman.. Time and life experience have taught me different. It was my therapist who made the suggestion I was more genderqueer than MtF initially, a suggestion I scoffed at and denied at the time. A year later and I realised he'd been right.

I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.

Quote from: Aisla on May 29, 2014, 11:45:51 PMThe intent here is to address the dysphoria that any tg person feels but in this case this dysphoria relates to an identity (emotional, physical, and spiritual) which is neither 100 per cent male nor 100 per cent female.

Again, apologies if anything I say seems insensitive, especially since I only just learned about non-binary identifications. But to me it sounds alarming. However, I don't think it's right for you say I'm attacking non-binary therapy when I'm only voicing thoughts and opinions, a right that if you expect others to afford to you, you should afford to others.

Quote from: Flan on May 30, 2014, 12:58:17 AM
Only concerning to the one who is color blind to the point where there is active denial of boxes (genders) that aren't in the colors "pink" and "blue" (male and female).

My main point was that if you open any biology book you'll see that there is only physically male and female. While you obviously cannot be both physically male and female at the same time, you also can't not be either. Presentation in terms of socially, emotionally, psychologically, can of course be more fluid than being anchored to male and female norms. It's important to differentiate.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on May 30, 2014, 09:19:08 AMAll women have Testosterone and Estrogen.  It is not ONLY Estrogen.  Women have higher levels of estrogen and lower levels of testosterone than men.  All men have Testosterone and Estrogen.  It is not ONLY Testosterone.  In fact, leave testosterone in the system long enough, and it will convert itself to estrogen.  Men have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of estrogen than women.

So, it's not so much the black and white picture you are presenting.  For someone that doesn't feel either male or female, finding a hormonal balance between testosterone and estrogen that works for them is just as key as it would be for someone who identifies as male or female.

You're splitting hairs here.

From a medical standpoint I personally don't think it's correct to prescribe hormones simply to eleviate what to me seem to be psychological issues. I'd be nervous prescribing a patient hormones that will turn their body into one of the two sexes when they say that don't identify as either, or especially one who wants to take female hormones, yet not complete surgery to actually be a female or visa versa? That's the whole point of HRT. HRT is a whole body change, that in my opinion shouldn't be used just because it makes someone feel mentally better, there are anti-psychotics for that. When you transition hormonally from having male hormones to female hormones, you destroy all aspects of your male body, likewise with female to male. To someone who says they either identify as BOTH, yet is indifferent to destroying the body of one they identify with, this again is nonsensical to me, not to mention all the health risks of what you try to describe as simply adding a little more estrogen and a little less testosterone. For example your body will consider (ironically what you consider to be balanced) this to be a hormonal imbalance and will exhibit numerous side effects, some very serious.

Quote from: FA on May 30, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
I discovered similar. I think early in transition, people can be more adamant about their identity as the opposite they were assigned. And possibly I felt more male at the time because being female felt so wrong. Now that I don't have that dysphoria to deal with, I find that I identify more and more as an androgynous person than somebody fitting cleanly in the binary.

In my opinion this is probably due to the fact that people have the choice to transition. People can choose whether to get SRS or not, start hormones or not, etc. When you're born, you don't choose which sex you're born as. This then is a catlyst for doubting if someone should continue transitioning, if SRS is worth it, if they're actually male or female, maybe they're not looking how they thought they'd look during their transition, etc. This is why personally I don't consider being genderqueer is valid, just a symptom of self-doubt and confusion. Someone posted the other day about how difficult it was to transition, but that in the end it was worth it. I think more mental health professionals should spend more time confirming that the patient, if indeed transgender, is mentally prepared and commited to the entire transition before they begin anything.

Quote from: teeg on May 30, 2014, 11:26:23 AM

You're splitting hairs here.

From a medical standpoint I personally don't think it's correct to prescribe hormones simply to eleviate what to me seem to be psychological issues. I'd be nervous prescribing a patient hormones that will turn their body into one of the two sexes when they say that don't identify as either, or especially one who wants to take female hormones, yet not complete surgery to actually be a female or visa versa? That's the whole point of HRT. HRT is a whole body change, that in my opinion shouldn't be used just because it makes someone feel mentally better, there are anti-psychotics for that. When you transition hormonally from having male hormones to female hormones, you destroy all aspects of your male body, likewise with female to male. To someone who says they either identify as BOTH, yet is indifferent to destroying the body of one they identify with, this again is nonsensical to me, not to mention all the health risks of what you try to describe as simply adding a little more estrogen and a little less testosterone. For example your body will consider (ironically what you consider to be balanced) this to be a hormonal imbalance and will exhibit numerous side effects, some very serious.

Unfortunately, MtF HRT, doesn't destroy all aspects of the male body.  Actually it does very little compared to what Testosterone does.  The biggest destruction it does is destroy one's fertility.  Beyond that, you get a reduction in genital size.  Beyond that all you get is changes tacked onto the male body, such as male fat distribution changing to a female distribution (and fat distribution is completely reversible).  Breast development, which is irreversible without surgery, but thats hardly destroying the male body.  Unless you start young, hips, shoulders, male facial structure won't change.  That's why we have facial feminization surgery.  Just about the only thing that can't be undone from HRT is the fertility.

Now then, why is it a mental disorder to be outside the binary but not to be trans* in the binary?  You sound like so many on other forums that don't believe in ->-bleeped-<-.  "Medical professionals are unethical and immoral for assisting us.  We have a mental disorder and need to be treated of that and not have our bodies butchered." Etc.  problem is the medical and psychiatric communities tried that.  Tried treating it as a mental disorder and various different disorders.  Tried anti-depressants, anti-psychotic, meds to control OCD... You name it, it's been tried.  Didn't work.  That is why HRT and SRS are the treatment options for us.  They were the only thing shown to actually improve our quality of life and mental health.  That includes non-binary peeps. 

So tell me, why should someone not get the treatment they need to better their mental health, just because it's something you don't understand.  There are people that argue exactly the same thing for trans* who are in the binary.  If medical professionals regulated their treatment option on what some people don't understand, rather than what has been shown to actually work for us, we'd all be screwed.  They give non-binary trans* HRT because it works for them, and improves quality of life and mental health just the same as it does for those in the binary.  And there are plenty in the binary that opt out of SRS too.