Quote from: ElioAyla on June 06, 2014, 02:10:30 AM
In my day to day life, I'm an omega wolf. I make everybody laugh, even make a fool of myself if it's the only thing that will bring a smile, I ease tensions whenever I can, and if my packmates disrespect me and hurt me enough I might break away and go it alone. Male or female, that's just my role.

I hate to tell you this ElioAyla, but what you described doesn't make you an omega wolf. If anything it makes you more of an alpha. Having the confidence to laugh at yourself or making a fool of yourself to make other's laugh takes quite a bit. Easing tensions, well that is another alpha trait because that means that people actually take your lead. It takes a lot to make fun of yourself and a whole lot of people can't. Being able to laugh at youself is an indicator of strong self esteem, self confidence and inner strength. You may not even be aware of it but believe me, people respect those sort of things in others because they may not have those qualities themselves.

Don't sell yourself short. People that are dominate and know and use it to manipulate others are usually buttholes. Real leaders are the ones that don't want to lead and really have no idea how strong they truly are.

Quote from: Ms Grace on June 02, 2014, 05:33:24 AM
I have no desire to be dominant or submissive... where does that leave me??

Same as me, and I'm far from vanilla.

Quote from: Pitch on June 08, 2014, 07:33:41 AM
Same as me, and I'm far from vanilla.

That is OK. Chocolate is so much better.

i like ginger and liquorice.

Strawberry is definitely better than vanilla.

I always found the alpha male role to be incredibly boring. Is it possible for there to even be an intelligent alpha male? It seems like those that do successfully pull it off are not, they're just dumb, strong, arrogant guys, that annoy the hell out of me, and act like they're better than me. The only thing that annoys me more is the fact that women generally find them attractive for whatever reason.  This is the one aspect of being a woman I don't feel I'll ever understand.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 15, 2014, 12:41:47 AM
Strawberry is definitely better than vanilla.

I always found the alpha male role to be incredibly boring. Is it possible for there to even be an intelligent alpha male? It seems like those that do successfully pull it off are not, they're just dumb, strong, arrogant guys, that annoy the hell out of me, and act like they're better than me. The only thing that annoys me more is the fact that women generally find them attractive for whatever reason.  This is the one aspect of being a woman I don't feel I'll ever understand.

I think one thing we may be doing is are we comparing the alpha roles in a social way or personality way?

In wolf packs there is an alpha male and alpha female. These roles change. Wolves are animals and even as intellegent as the canine speies are, they still live by insinct and have not as high of levels of thinking than us humans. The "alpha male" type you are speaking of sounds more like a social alpha role. Those roles, much like in a wolf pack will change when somone al ittle better looking, a little more arrogant and so on come around. This is not limited to gender because like the wolf pack there are social alpha females. The thing about it is that when the rubber meets the road or the crap gets splattered by the fan they are ususally the ones that haven't a clue of what to do and usually fail miserably at that.

The true alphas, personality wise, are the ones then that step up to the plate, then actually lead and keep everyone safe to the point that they will sacrifice themselves. Like I told ElioAyla ealier, having the ability to laugh at oneself and make fun of oneself takes a lot of self confidence and self esteem, making people laugh and or smile and comfortable enough speaks volumes about inner strength and just how strong a person is to induce laughter and or easing tensions in others. So really, the true alpha types are really not aware that they are alphas or care to be social alphas. They usually just stand back and watch the other's jockey for that social hierarchey and really don't want to be a part of it, but usually have more of an effect on the crowd than what they think. And a lot of time these true "alphas" will make the social alphas uncomfortable because the social alphas usually don't have the inner strength, self confidence or self esteem to really do much more than look the part.

I think the Alpha and Omega are being mixed up with dominant and submissive.
and how they apply to roles when it comes to non-binary gender.

We speak of having female and male sides to ourselves in general, she and he.
The question of whether we are applying dominant to he and submissive to she came up.
I question whether we do or not. I have two sides to my gender, she and he.
They are both me, they share everything because they are me, not two different people.
Depending of what is needed, what the situation is, they can both be one or the other in the way they use these things.
They can both be dominant if need be, or one will stand out more than the other.
They can be either role of Alpha or Omega, or dominant or submissive.
They are me, they share everything because they are me after all.
The definitions apply equally, are shared and used as such.
But they are still identified as she and he, which is just me.
I identify them that way because they seem to be, but it might just be because of the demands of society to have a binary world.
One picked up traits different from the other one at an early age?
I don't know, they could've started out that way, have just blended as I age.

It's interesting to me that they could be different for others, that the perspectives of genders have roles.
When I was young, I thought they did, because society demanded that they where.
Does society dictate what your identities are? That they have roles?
Or do they really have those traits and roles?
I used to think they did, but not so much anymore, if at all.
My awareness that I was non-binary was dependent on this.
It was when I realized that they didn't was when I lost that binary thinking.
But I don't know if that is just me or not. I leave it open because of what I read here...
The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.

I don't think there is any right way or wrong way in how we perceive our gender(s).
Although I do think it probably changes over time, just like so many things do as we go older.
It's an interesting discussion.
To me, it's awareness, then identity(s), then roles and what we apply to those roles, the how and why.
Ativan

The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.

I don't think there is any right way or wrong way in how we perceive our gender(s).
Although I do think it probably changes over time, just like so many things do as we go older.
It's an interesting discussion.
To me, it's awareness, then identity(s), then roles and what we apply to those roles, the how and why.
Ativan

Moving a bit fast here- hard for me to get quality forum time now

For me, I was unable to break free of binary thinking until a crisis caused by physical dysphoria forced it.  That has brought me here.
Since then, labels disintegrate, and the only defined female characteristic became how my body physically responds during intimacy.  That I classify as exclusively female.
But mentally it floats, there is the center, non identifyable male to female, probably more male.  There is the fluid social, which is simply action reaction, aggression when needed, passive when relaxed.
The image of the macho male is revolting to me.  Probably because I was forced to try to be it, and they only hurt me most of the time, but not all the time.
Male then becomes synonymous with fatherhood, another role, a mindset and way of life, contributing to remaining GQ presentationally.

But social pressures cloud everything.

Awareness then identity.    The roles I get tired of, implies something I add to the others.  Prefer always responding from the center.  Roles are a defense mechanism for me, a disguise of sorts.

However, in full transition as Satinjoy, would I say the same thing?  I don't know.  My sense of center will shift with that presentation.

Gender then is almost illusory. 

Confusing it is.  But I do know I feel better now that the focus is on experiencing rather than thinking.

Shared identities.  Blended identities.  Elusive.  All part of  the whole none distanced far from the other.  Can change instantly depending on who I am talking to but the center remains integrated.

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 11:58:11 AM
The question was, do you really assign roles to your identity, to it's perspectives? To your identities, to your genders?
Now I wonder if any of you perceive non-binary as a shared identity or genders, without assigning roles.
Yet still retain the sense that they are different, that they do have an awareness of their own that you share with yourself.

Some of the questions that are considered here are often too overwhelming to me, I suppose it's because I don't examining everything as closely as some and am not as concerned about the mental mechanics and minutia of what drives me and others. Not that it isn't important for some to examine, but I am just a simpleton that takes it all as whatever it is and am thankful to be able to balance my checkbook.

So I suppose that when I am with males doing male things that my male persona dominates though I am always aware of stuffing the female aspect as being inappropriate for time and place. When I'm with females then that other person shrinks away and takes a back seat to my more female side, though knowing that if a lion entered the room that other guy would surface in an instant. Neither persona has ever been the controlling factor of who I am. Sheesh these questions are hard, I hope this isn't a graded test and if it is at least give me a D+. 

They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. 
Ativan

This is the one place where instead of having an A+ I would like B's or OMG C's.

The bottom line for me is are we comfortable and happy in our center and presentation or uncomfortable and reactionary.  Truthful or not truthful.

And the reason for me to keep digging in here is that physical dysphoria unchecked or pulling away from the reality of who I am internally can actually kill me.  The scenario is loss of wife through too much female presentation, then loss of everything else, then back to the dark side I was in my 20's, but miserable, for my center loves my wife and our relationship which is now based on truth, trust and deep love, with accommodations for each to make for the other.  But I have sung that song too many times in here.

Being happy, genuine and comfortable is the big deal in here.  Sounds like Shantel already has that one nailed.  And Shantel got to keep (pronoun?)'s girl too, and lived happily ever after.

That's an A+ isn't it?  I envy that simplicity.

But I love the deep conversations in here.  And it helps me stay centered, or I would drift back to far into the female side, nothing wrong with that, but not in my current life conditions.  I will not trade my wife for my dysphoric needs.  Not when I truly have no interest in pursuing a female FTE presentation.  I just want to be me.

Nails out, hair down, head up and wanting to be helpful.

Enjoy all.  And I really really really want a B+ someday 

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. 
Ativan

Gee thanks teacher! Wish I would have done that in HS, graduated from a four year academic HS with a 1.5 overall GPA because I was immature and disinterested. After two hitches in the army went on to a junior college and they fainted when they saw my HS transcript and said, "How the hell did you manage that?" I said, "It was close, the only thing that saved me was my term papers and tests, because the jerks that let me copy their homework had crappy papers"  Finally I decided not to count on other people for life's answers.

You know I have to ask something, since you are my peer group now.   Am I generally making sense?  Do you identify with the take I have on this stuff - or am I either an oddity or kind of on the wrong page...

Gosh the loneliness I sometimes feel about being different from just about everyone really can bite.

Does anyone else identify with this three center thing - physical, spiritual or the core, and social fluidity?

Another place where I realize the more I know the less I know.  But at least I think that getting rid of the blocks to feeling has helped a lot, and I hope all of you get rid of yours.  Mine come and go, I know that when I hold my breath, for then I am usually stuffing feelings.  So we need to breathe.

In the natural I would be less GQ and more MTF.  Oh well.

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 17, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
This is the one place where instead of having an A+ I would like B's or OMG C's.

The bottom line for me is are we comfortable and happy in our center and presentation or uncomfortable and reactionary.  Truthful or not truthful.

And the reason for me to keep digging in here is that physical dysphoria unchecked or pulling away from the reality of who I am internally can actually kill me.  The scenario is loss of wife through too much female presentation, then loss of everything else, then back to the dark side I was in my 20's, but miserable, for my center loves my wife and our relationship which is now based on truth, trust and deep love, with accommodations for each to make for the other.  But I have sung that song too many times in here.

Being happy, genuine and comfortable is the big deal in here.  Sounds like Shantel already has that one nailed.  And Shantel got to keep (pronoun?)'s girl too, and lived happily ever after.

That's an A+ isn't it?  I envy that simplicity.

But I love the deep conversations in here.  And it helps me stay centered, or I would drift back to far into the female side, nothing wrong with that, but not in my current life conditions.  I will not trade my wife for my dysphoric needs.  Not when I truly have no interest in pursuing a female FTE presentation.  I just want to be me.

Nails out, hair down, head up and wanting to be helpful.

Enjoy all.  And I really really really want a B+ someday 

Yes that is definitely an A in my book and if you think about it anyone that is going to be true to themselves isn't going to be fooling and deluding themselves. That being said one has to be honest and open with themselves and others. If you are in a meaningful relationship like a marriage or some kind of committed partnership then honesty and trust are big players and it is something that always has to be worked at constantly with a lot of open conversation with feeling, emotion, empathy and passion. There is really no room for stuffing. I was a stuffer in my most masculine days, because that's what men did, they didn't share squat with anyone, lest it appear as weakness and we can't have that!

Well times changed along with the level of my transition and along with that came compromise from both of us on how far I would take my trans status. I had to come to the place where I realized that having a vagina wasn't worth the cost to me in loss of the love of my life, my spouse and alienation of family members, he disdain and ridicule of friends. I had a need to be functional in the real world apart from the transgender world with all of it's inherent fantasy. Not that I don't love it, but I pragmatically concluded that it wasn't completely for me. So with that I became more in tune with androgyny and the non-binary concept, it became more palatable along with having read a lot of lengthy commentaries by Ativan. I have found my place here it is the ultimate panacea and middle ground where i can function and keep my familial and spiritual relationships balanced and in place and still present as flamboyantly as I prefer that is reasonable. I'm considered a bit eccentric but having a friendly, warm and outgoing personality in public is really extremely disarming to those who might consider open ridicule. I had an orchiectomy in 2001 which was ok then because my spouse wasn't interested in the usual thing until she got on HRT herself then things changed. I am on full dosage HRT typical for a post menopausal female because I have no gonads, I found that I didn't like going back on injectable testosterone as it drove me back into type A personality which isn't really very nice so I use  a small amount of T cream the day before date morning and half a Viagra and I'm better now than I was before. I know TMI here but I want to be transparent and honest with everyone who is living non-binary, it can be as good as you make it but one has to be proactive in all aspects of how you want to live your life. Hope this makes sense, it came straight from my heart!

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on June 17, 2014, 02:52:19 PM
They are some pretty tough questions and in some ways call for more introspection for some.
I've been doing some of that myself lately, comes from writing that I have been doing.
I went back over what I was writing to look for errors and realized things about myself that I wouldn't have otherwise.
And a lot of it comes from what I read here that people have written.
I've just been looking at perspectives a little more closely.
We're an interesting group of people.
You help keep us grounded when we run off on these tangents of thought.
Lol, it's not a graded test, but you get an A+, just the same. 
Ativan

There is no real way of avoiding your truth.  It sits there.  It demands attention.  It elicits a visceral response.  It is ever present.  The strange thing it that there are as many truths as you have relationships.  Being authentic, present, respectful of yourself and others demands fluidity and flexibility.  I cant see how I can aspire to be anything other than non binary as this is the only identity that affords me this level of flexibility.

I was reminded of this today when my very understanding wife acknowledged that I was now a much nicer and happier person and no longer displayed the "hard T induced edge."  She said that she attributed this 'edge' to my having been unhappy acting in the binary male role when it was at odds with who I felt myself to be.  She brought this up as she had just had a quite emotional discussion with our daughter who had been very upset.  She apparently said that she couldn't deal with or discuss my TG nature or treatment with me, and as a nurse while she could deal with similar patients she couldn't do this with her 'dad'.  She said that she just wanted me to remain her father. 

My immediate response was to argue and to protest that this was unreasonable for an adult child to expect me to avoid compromising that label or redefining our relationship but now I get it.  I need to honour and to respect our relationship and perhaps seek to occur to her in a different manner to how I may occur to my wife, friends, colleagues etc.  The fact is we all need to do this but in a very binary world, particularly as a TG I wanted to flip my expression to the opposite binary without respecting or taking the time to reframe our relationship.  So in so far as this relationship is concerned I will take my time and be more sensitive to the needs of my daughter  whereas in other circumstances I may not.  It really is situation and person dependent.

So in summary, non binary is where I am.  It is exactly the right place for me on the gender identity continuum given my underlying identity, history and socialisation.  I cant see significant further benefit, but I can see a whole lot of pain and risk, if I move to the opposite binary via a full transition so I wont be taking that journey.  I am in a far happier place than I ever dreamed possible.  I have no dysphoria and now have endless possibilities to authentically express myself in different ways to different people.  Without low dose hrt and modern therapies I would be in a whole lot of pain as would many of my key relationships.  I am blessed indeed.

Thank you for sharing your journeys and perspectives they have been affirming and empowering. Satinjoy, Shantel, Ativan you make a whole lot of sense and your combined insight has been of enormous benefit.

Aisla

I am at work and cannot reply but these last two posts are so in tune with my own experiences it is amazing

Different for daughters Aisla, must be gentle there, I have one that cannot handle it and two that can.  Father figures.  Stability.  And nursing probably needs that fatherly strength.  Its ok for her to need that space.
I would not comment but I have the one daughter in similar conditions, though she has GAD and OCD and there are needs that must be met and the foundational rock of the family must remain a rock.  I can let my hair down in here.... not with her.  More with the wife.  I took her with me to therapy and it rocked my world, and that was just over fingernails, but there were many keys given that day.  She cannot validate my trans but she can my fatherhood.  I cannot look for approval from her for trans, but integrity and strength, huge respect by her there.

Such powerful identification with you wonderful people.

God bless, love to all here.