Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?

In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me.

Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.

^This. I don't think it's misunderstood at all. maybe the whole genderqueer or gender fluid is confusing, but beyond that the garden variety binary trans person is pretty well understood. Also, I have yet to have one person outside of my family who doesn't support me and some of them go out of their way too. Sure, some are prolly like I knew that femme looking, woman acting queer was really a ->-bleeped-<-. But no one has said anything.

I had an incident recently but it was in one of the worst neighborhoods in the country and not because I'm trans but because I'm trans and attractive to some, aka a trap. Even though I never came on to them and have a BF.

I was at a rehab for substance abuse issues and dressed as a man there (even though the nurse spit out her coffee when i told her "don't worry no one will notice that I look kinda femme.) She literally was agape. "Sweetie, there's no way you can hide it. It's plainly obvious." My point is I ran into two of the peeps I was in rehab with on the outside while presenting pretty femme and with my BF and the girl called me she without asking and the guy gace me a hug when he left. They treated me prolly even better than in the place.

But this is my experience and I imagine it's harder if you don't pass and are not femme/girly. And if you don't like men, then it's like why? I don't think people understand that. I do. But maybe I wouldn't if I didn't have such sever genital dysphoria. It's the only dysphoria I have and I barely know what people mean when they talk about it (dysphoria that is not genital based is what I mean). No one has explained it to me. Maybe I only have genital dysphoria cause my body is so femme though.

****

In regards to the other post about being femme and all and older transtioning parents,  I do think there is a lack of understanding and empathy (or any empathy) from cis peeps in regards to MTFs with kids who are masculine and then transition. I dont think its so much the masculinity as it is the kids. People are uber protective of kids these days and when a father becomes a woman people get weirded out sometimes, cause they say "what about the kids?" "Why did they have them. Why did they marry?" And in someways it's a valid point because the kids and wives do get hurt and as a community we only defend our side and nver consider the wives and kids. I totally understand and support anyone's transition but I can also see from the other side and think "I get that they dont understand it and think that they should have not married." It's really hard. IDK. Don't hate me.

***

Fair or not, what it comes down to is passing visually and being even a little femme and having at least an andro voice. if you have any of the preceding, you'll be accepted. Before transition I can't count the number of people who told me that I should just get a sex change and become a woman cause I'm already 90 percent there.

I understand what Dahlia is saying.  From what little i have seen (and my rl experience is very limited) the younger one is when they come out, it seems that it is accepted as something that is more innate to them.  The further a man goes into age, and the more masculine he is, the announcement seems to be met with more skepticism and is much more likely to be seen as a perversion.

I would recommend reading the whipping girl by Julia Serano she gives several well thought explanations. Mostly it because we challenge the way they see gender. Many people can't really wrap their heads around why someone would  possibly want to change their gender.

sexism plays a huge role. In the book I mentioned earlier Julia says that us being transgender actually challenges their sexist beliefs. She states that their are 2 different kinds of sexism. traditional sexism is the belief that men are better than women. Trans women throw a wrench into that theory because we are born male but we wish to become female which is seen as inferior. This form of sexism also affects trans men because they are viewed as less than cis-guys by people who hold this belief.

The other form of sexism is the oppositional sexism. It is the idea that their are only two genders and they are mutually exclusive. people with in the trans spectrum know that this is not true. Their are lots of people that live between and outside of the gender binary. But to a cis person who has never met a trans person this completely derails there formally held belief. that is why they often don't accept the gender that we Identify with as our "real" gender.

If u agree with most of what I said, I would definitely read some of Julia Serano's work she is a brilliant author.

I believe it's because a lot of people do not believe there is such a thing as a gender identity programmed into the brain.

If your gender identity matches your body sex, it's hard to notice.

As my mom keeps putting it: "I just don't think about it! Why do you have to think about it? Why can't you just accept the sex you were born as?"

=_=

I started transition at age 47, have two children and was an alpha dog Firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years. I have not been clocked once since I started RLE on January 1st of this year. I was just telling Cindy that I felt guilty about passing so well when many here struggle to get out the door. Some of the post I have read here seem to indicate if you are over 40 with children to just forget it. This does a huge disservice to this community as a whole. It must be terrible to have some of these ideas about your own community. 

The problem is, we as humans can only understand things through the vantage point of our own limited experiences.

Whenever someone describes something to us, we're always mentally comparing it to things that we ourselves have gone through in order to understand it and empathize with it.

Cis people do not experience dysphoria. Therefore they're always trying to compare it to things that they have felt.

So, well, it's no wonder that we're so often criticized by cis-men for being deviant sexual fetishists, because that's their experience with feminine things, is being sexually attracted to them. It's why women criticize trans men for just trying to transition in order to gain male privilege, because they have likely experienced frustration with being female due to social problems, so they're assuming it's the same. These people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong. They're trying to filter these things through their own experiences with the opposite sex.

I know I did the same thing when I first hit puberty. I actually thought that I was heterosexual, because, well, other guys liked looking at girls too. So I assumed that all guys were doing the same thing as me, looking at women and imagining that they were them. I thought that this was what made heterosexual relationships, was men wondering what it was like to be women, and women wondering what it was like to be men, and that's why they were so fascinated with each-other. I was completely shocked when I learned that other people really weren't doing that, they were just looking at the opposite sex and imagining having sex with them, or simply just turned on by the view.

Again... it's all trying to understand other's emotions based on only your own limited experiences.

Carrie, I had much the same experience re: sexuality and imagining -being- female.
It was definitely a clue early on that I completely misunderstood

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 12, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
I started transition at age 47, have two children and was an alpha dog Firefighter/Paramedic for 28 years. I have not been clocked once since I started RLE on January 1st of this year. I was just telling Cindy that I felt guilty about passing so well when many here struggle to get out the door. Some of the post I have read here seem to indicate if you are over 40 with children to just forget it. This does a huge disservice to this community as a whole. It must be terrible to have some of these ideas about your own community. 

If mine was one of the posts you are referring to, I made no comment on transgender people.  I merely restated the unfortunate perceptions that many of the cis people i know have of us. 

Quote from: Kylie on July 12, 2014, 09:49:57 PM
If mine was one of the posts you are referring to, I made no comment on transgender people.  I merely restated the unfortunate perceptions that many of the cis people i know have of us.

Not you sweetie so relax! 

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 12, 2014, 09:39:24 PMThese people have no reference point. They have never felt the feeling that their own body was wrong, or that their social role was wrong.

Uh, you don't know that though.

Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 10:14:53 PM
Uh, you don't know that though.

In my opinion Yes! They would be members here joining for support. Once gender Dysphoria gets a hold on you it only gets worse. I personally have not know one single person successfully live without eventually getting treatment. It is more horrible the longer you fight it. 

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 12, 2014, 10:24:33 PM
In my opinion Yes! They would be members here joining for support. Once gender Dysphoria gets a hold on you it only gets worse. I personally have not know one single person successfully live without eventually getting treatment. It is more horrible the longer you fight it. 

I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood what we were talking about. It was about cis people.

Yes to cis people NOT having a reference point. They do not know the pain of feeling wrong every day about their gender. They do not know the inner struggles and you can not describe it to them adequately. The have no comprehension! 

Being different. That's the bottom line. As far as most people are concerned, being trans is so far past the status quo, they cannot accept it. People like my parents are so old fashioned and so hard headed, they cannot grasp the idea of transgender. They're stuck in their old ways and why should anyone be different, according to them. Even being gay is something mind blowing and shunned even today, and transitioning is such an incomprehensible idea it's immediately rejected. I myself was taught to reject it and reject my inner self, and it took me a long, long time to get past that and accept me for me. 

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 12, 2014, 08:42:53 PM
I believe it's because a lot of people do not believe there is such a thing as a gender identity programmed into the brain.

If your gender identity matches your body sex, it's hard to notice.

I agree, and lots of feminists back in the day seemed to put a huge amount of stock on gender being an entirely social thing. I understand the temptation to label gender a social thing, because then it lets you really see the sexes as equal; with the feminine being oppressed so it fit in nicely with  radical feminist ideology. Luckily the majority of feminists these days understand that there is gender identity, and that it is okay for women to be different than men that doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated with equality.

Sadly, I think the remaining radical exclusionary feminists seem to have an outsized influence versus their numbers.

In any case, understanding isn't required, just acceptance. I don't understand the Amish, but I accept them. I am not about to attack them or their way of life, all I need to do is be friendly and not get in their way or pressure their horse and buggies with my tractor trailer (I do goto amish areas in PA a bit).

What I really cannot stand... at all....
Is when TERF's ally with conservative groups that also promote misogyny in order to further their campaign against (read, ensure discrimination against) trans people.

It is so WTF for me.. I just cannot figure it out.
Cognitive dissonance overload.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 12, 2014, 06:42:18 PM
...I do think there is a lack of understanding and empathy (or any empathy) from cis peeps in regards to MTFs with kids who are masculine and then transition...

...Fair or not, what it comes down to is passing visually and being even a little femme and having at least an andro voice. if you have any of the preceding, you'll be accepted. Before transition I can't count the number of people who told me that I should just get a sex change and become a woman cause I'm already 90 percent there.

I hadn't thought of that, but yeah, now that I consider it, it does kind of come down to passing, plus also to how feminine one was pre-transition. People do seem to (wrongly) assume that gender=interests and gender=sex. So those who look female-sexed visually are usually told things along the lines of "what? You used to be a GUY? Wow, well I don't care, you're beautiful! You're definitely a woman to me. Congratulations!" And they get MUCH more leeway in terms of self-expression because people automatically accept them as female when looking at them.

And you know, I guess I can't talk either when it comes to understanding. I always talk as if I'm automatically assuming that people don't understand, and talking as if this is why we need to stand up and educate these inevitably-non-understanding people, but when I think about it, there wasn't a single person (except maybe my dad,) who gave me the least bit of backlash about my transition. So maybe it does come down to interests and pre-transition effeminacy. That one article I critiqued about "so you want to be a T-girl?" with all of those horror stories about friend and family rejection? It was written by someone who was deep in denial pre-transition. So the author inevitably had to face the ridicule of people who knew her as a dudely dude with manly interests. And, well, even though I never looked the least bit androgynous as a guy, (I was tall and large-built and very thick-limbed,) I really didn't have to explain much. All I said in my coming-out letter was "I developed gender dysphoria around age 12," and that was that. Not a single person questioned me on it. Quite the contrary. Everybody started saying "you know, I always thought you were gay anyway," or even my own mom saying "you know, I noticed you were more feminine than the other boys since the day you were born. You were always more verbal, and so much more well-behaved" and stuff like that.

So I guess the lesson is to not go into denial? Just be yourself pre-transition and people will understand you?

I dunno. I guess I shouldn't take this defensive attitude all the time where I'm immediately taking an "us vs. them" attitude and expecting nobody to understand and to have to explain it.

Quote from: amber roskamp on July 12, 2014, 08:37:17 PM
The other form of sexism is the oppositional sexism. It is the idea that their are only two genders and they are mutually exclusive. people with in the trans spectrum know that this is not true. Their are lots of people that live between and outside of the gender binary. But to a cis person who has never met a trans person this completely derails there formally held belief. that is why they often don't accept the gender that we Identify with as our "real" gender.

I've been doing a lot of research lately on indigenous peoples, mostly here in the US because that's where the wealth of information seems to be but also about other countries, and these peoples globally had more than two genders in their societies. Often they would wait to see how a person "presented" themselves naturally before being able to see where they fit genderwise.

A common thread within these peoples in regards to gender were females, females who displayed masculine traits and became hunter gatherers, males who displayed female traits and took on female roles and males.

As brutal colonization began with Europeans invading and conquering these lands they brought with them their two gender views that were based on their religion and wiped out tolerance for anyone who falls outside of the two gender belief system.

Consequently many of these "Two Spirited" people were considered Shamans or held high positions in the tribe as they had the ability to see the world from more than one perspective. The willful murdering of these Two Spirited people was a way to separate indigenous peoples from their belief systems and force them to the conquering  lands belief system.

Sadly, as we come to our present day, many cultures are now based on generational religious beliefs regarding a two gender only way of existence.

I'm not posting this to spark any religious debate or religious hate, goodness knows there's enough hatred to go around, I'm merely presenting some interesting facts I've found in my research.

Trans people have always existed. We are a natural part of the human family just like everyone else. I hope that as time goes on and we continue to move toward equality that more and more cis-gendered people will be able to see us simply as fellow human beings. 

You are sooooo correct. I was born on a reservation, and because of my IS condition and that I always identified as female our elders knew of my gender status, for lack of better words, and gender issues weren't pushed with regards to who, or what I played with during my early childhood. And after losing my Mom, then a year later being adopted off the reservation our elders gave my new Mom very strict instructions regarding me and gender in that I was supposed to be able to choose the gender I felt most comfortable with when puberty began. And had things with me actually happened that way I would have been much better off, and would have transitioned much earlier.My adopted Mom sometime later married who would against my wishes become my adopted father, a macho Catholic man of Cicilian Italian descent and my life as I knew it was turned upside down. Long story short, during visits during the summers of my remaining childhood back to my reservation a lot of what you've pointed out here with regard to First Nations peoples and being "two Spirited"was explained to me by the elders. What your saying here is very accurate.

Thank you for taking the time to research and post this.

Ally