Those of you who've been here a while know my story so I'll use the very short PG rated version of my childhood here.

As some of you know I was born intersexed, and From my very first waking memory I knew I was a girl. I never had any doubt. Being born on a reservation it's a different culture, and because I was different both in what I had vs. normal boys and how I felt, My biological Mom didn't push gender issues when it came to who and what items/toys I played with. I lost my Mom when I was six, and sadly she was the only family I had, so long story short I was adopted off the reservation a year and a half later when I was almost 8. A year afterward my adopted Mom married a macho domineering Catholic that plunged my life into an upside down hell I wouldn't wish on anyone. But even throughout my suffering I never wavered. Throughout it all, the bickering, the "you just need toughened up" comments and attempts at doing so by him I always knew I was a girl. And kept praying for some miracle rescue from what I was going through.

So yes, I do believe that some of us can know at an early age. and if we can be given blockers to save us from the damage that T and especially DHT will do to us going through the wrong puberty they should be made available especially to intersexed children such as I was.

I thank the OP for starting this thread for it's a topic I feel strongly about.

ally

I think it important to be able to express yourself on who you are.

I know in certain areas its really dangerous and no matter where you are in the world its challenging to be trans, therefore it important to be able to reach out for help and suport.
Growing up as a trans kid or teen is not easy but growing up and being told to hide it is not much better either, I knew from a early age I was diffrent, and I got very depressed,
agressive, and general difficult to deal with. I did not trust my parrent, I ran away from home, and I tried to comitte suicide and did selfharm from when I was 12. I did not belive I would survive
and I still got some health issues related to this past where I knew I was trans but everyone keep ignoring it and there where no ways for propper threatment untill I was 16-18.

I also know a mother of a 6 year old transgirl. She was not suportive in the begging untill she realised that her child got extremly depressed and tried to cut of her penis.
It had not been easy for them, She had to remove them to another kindergarden and find a school which could accept her, She also had to deal with the health goverment and alot of
ignorant questions since the goverment here is not knowlegde about these things. But she rather take this fights and let her be happy, than having a child which is very depressive and do selfharm.

That is an amazing mother-I dream of a world in which every kid is so fortunate.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 15, 2014, 05:55:00 PM
That is an amazing mother-I dream of a world in which every kid is so fortunate.

+1, I too dream and long for such a world.

Allie

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 05, 2014, 06:10:27 PM
The current WPATH standards of care basically cite studies which said that of gender-nonconforming children admitted to therapy, only about 10%-25% had their transgender identity persist into adulthood....
This same section does say, however, that those with the strongest gender-nonconforming feelings as children, those who play completely with the toys of the opposite sex, demand that they are a member of the opposite sex, and show early signs of body aversion, are more likely to have their trans identity persist.

t trans youth does make me VERY dysphoric. Especially the part with the twins, because you actually get to see how much of a difference blocking the male puberty makes. It's like "here's what you actually did go through, which now you can never undo, you hideous unlucky unfixably-masculine person, and here's the beautiful completely-female person that you could have been if you'd paid more attention to your jealousy of girls and hatred of your masculinizing body at that age." Urgh... )

I don't like the tone of the video either, but I do think (from what I've heard, I know someone who goes to him) that the doctor is a very conscientious caring professional who is really wanting to change the ideas of professionals and not necessarily trans people. After all, I do know many knock dead gorgeous trans women who never took blockers and many more who are at least average. I think we could safely say they have probably save lives.

I think the stats are not really applicable to the kids who are coming out at 6 and demanding to be called the right gender etc. Dr Zuck was actually a part of the WPATH standards and probably had a major input in this one. But I don't know if it is really based on much.


--Jay

^Nah, I'm not saying that the video was negative in tone, or did anything to attack later-transitioners verbally. It's just that obnoxious nagging internal voice telling me "this could have been you" that makes it torture me.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 17, 2014, 06:45:18 PM
^Nah, I'm not saying that the video was negative in tone, or did anything to attack later-transitioners verbally. It's just that obnoxious nagging internal voice telling me "this could have been you" that makes it torture me.

No Dr Spake did (IMO) out and out say that MTFs who didn't take blockers were "not normal". But I think his appeal is definitely to medical folks. He is out to convince them that his minority opinion (which is still controversial) is correct by saying that these kids will have better "clinical results". I can't argue with the idea that they no doubt will (and avoid certain types of surgeries and procedures-- top surgery, tracheal shaving, FFS, electrolysis). But on the trans activism level, I find it a bit offensive. Still realistically I would have been taller and not had to have top surgery.

--Jay

Jay,

You make a good point, but as an activist (albeit a much younger one) I feel like I have to disagree with you-frankly I think that because I missed the opportunity to start hormones earlier, I, at least within the confines of what is innately programed in our brains to read someone as "female" or "male", will never be normal.  Gender itself may be fake and socially imposed, but personally my problem hasn't so much been with my gender as it has been with my sex: The physical traits of my body that are male, and should be female.  There are certain things that will never change for me: I will always be tall, impossibly broad shoulders, long, dangly arms and hands that out me to every person I meet.  From a biological standpoint, I will never be (or appear) "normal".

If I am ever going to have even a small chance at having a body I can feel comfortable and safe in, I will require at least sixty thousand dollars in surgery, electrolysis, and extensive vocal coaching.  Even then, certain things that will never change about me mean that I can never be regarded as a "normal" member of society; this is fine in my personal corner of bohemia, and I don't care about fitting into someone's standards of normality-but there practical considerations.  What about when I go in for job interviews?  Or when I try to date?  As nice as the thought of a world without gender is (and I dream of the day that world comes), it's never going to happen in my lifetime, and the prospect of living and dying as a highly visible part of what is still one of the most vulnerable minorities in the world today in a body that will always make me squirm is not an easy reality to face.  As a trans woman who is seeing little to no response after two years of HRT, I can say that especially for MtFs, starting young is the only way to avoid constant pain, and the inability to find any sense of belonging in an oppressive society.
--Sasha

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 18, 2014, 07:51:56 PM
Jay,

You make a good point, but as an activist (albeit a much younger one) I feel like I have to disagree with you-frankly I think that because I missed the opportunity to start hormones earlier, I, at least within the confines of what is innately programed in our brains to read someone as "female" or "male", will never be normal.  Gender itself may be fake and socially imposed, but personally my problem hasn't so much been with my gender as it has been with my sex: The physical traits of my body that are male, and should be female.  There are certain things that will never change for me: I will always be tall, impossibly broad shoulders, long, dangly arms and hands that out me to every person I meet.  From a biological standpoint, I will never be (or appear) "normal".

If I am ever going to have even a small chance at having a body I can feel comfortable and safe in, I will require at least sixty thousand dollars in surgery, electrolysis, and extensive vocal coaching.  Even then, certain things that will never change about me mean that I can never be regarded as a "normal" member of society; this is fine in my personal corner of bohemia, and I don't care about fitting into someone's standards of normality-but there practical considerations.  What about when I go in for job interviews?  Or when I try to date?  As nice as the thought of a world without gender is (and I dream of the day that world comes), it's never going to happen in my lifetime, and the prospect of living and dying as a highly visible part of what is still one of the most vulnerable minorities in the world today in a body that will always make me squirm is not an easy reality to face.  As a trans woman who is seeing little to no response after two years of HRT, I can say that especially for MtFs, starting young is the only way to avoid constant pain, and the inability to find any sense of belonging in an oppressive society.
--Sasha

We might not always have seen eye to eye Sasha, but this post is beautiful and touching and made me feel not so alone, as I feel much the same way, if not exactly the same way. I don't really care about gender, but my body is a different story. And I try to stay positive, but the practical considerations start to mount. You need money. I had to apply for a job as a male, and it's going to hurt, but I need a job, and I already have so many strikes that being trans isn't going to win me points.

But, in any event, thanks for this post. Really. Even if only for a night, it made me feel not so alone. Thanks so much.

PS: A book I think you might enjoy if you havent read it is Half Life by Shelley jackson, you can read some parts on Google Books. I think after reading your posts and thoughts, you'll really enjoy it...

Joanna,

I'm so glad this struck a chord with you!  And don't worry about not having seen eye to eye in one discussion-this forum is just that, a forum.  It's a place for people to have discussions, disagree with one another, and still provide support and advice at the end of the day, isn't it?  I know exactly what you're going through, that's for sure.  It sucks.  Life for us really sucks right now-and unless Obama is willing to issue an executive order requiring my insurance to provide, you know, critical health care, or my parents suddenly stop hating me, my life is going to suck for a while longer. 

Also, Half Life is actually the next book on my reading list, believe it or not!!!  I'm not sure if you'd like them, they both made me feel dysphoric as hell, but two books if you don't want to feel alone are: A Safe Girl To Love, by Casey Plett-it's a number of essays about trans women by a trans woman, and Nevada by Imogen Binnie; it's the scuzzy queer road novel I've always dreamed about.  Both of made me feel a lot less alone.

Keep your chin up-it's the most flatting angle if the camera is to your side!  Thing will pick up some day, because they simply must.

My story is a bit different; young transitioner here, who did some medical stuff most of her teen years, and I actually have a handful of friends who I meet up with to present with, talk with, etc. Basically, what brings is together is that we all:

A) Transitioned quite young
B) Share our stories in the media
C) As a consequence of B, have supportive parents, to say the least.

This means folks like Jazz, Nicole (of the Maine school bathroom stories, and is actually the twin girl actually mentioned in Dr. Spack's video), etc. I'm especially close with Jazz and her mother Jeanette, as I did a presentation with them last month, in addition to Chris and Mary, who were on Katie Couric's show a few years back, oddly enough with my transyouth specialized doctor (Dr. Michelle Forcier). We're just normal kids at heart, at our cores; we just talk about transition and surgeries a bit.

Basically, my thoughts are that the system is broken, for the most part; I can tell you on good authority; Jazz herself, that she's on estrogen now, has been for like 3/4 months. We should all be able to go through puberty when our peers do. 16 is rather crazy, especially for an MTF like me, because at that point, all the other girls will be wrapping up their pubertal development, where as I'd be just starting, even with blockers/Lupron. This is not the lone issue faced by youth, nor is bathrooms, though that's very relevant, but medical care.

This is about being able to find the right doctors and therapists for the child. I was DISTRAUGHT that I didn't have a female body growing up, ever since I can remember, at age 3, when I tried to snap that ugly male bit off, and telling my mother I didn't want it anymore. Many of my therapists were uneducated about transitioning, expectedly so, but refused to do the research/information I gave them. As a result, as a youth, I had nearly four years of therapy, as a teen, for no reason, before I got hormones. It feels like a worse version of the NHS accounts, given some of the nutters I saw over the years. Those were vital years to me, that I lost because of, quite frankly, stupidity on the part of the therapists. It's one thing to not know, it's another to ignore the information I was giving them on a platter entirely. Futhermore, doctors who see transitioning youth need better visibility on the whole. We live in 2014. We have the internet, but there's STILL not much out there. There's Dr. Michelle Forcier (my doc), Dr. Norman Spack, and I believe Dr. Johanna Olson. That covers Providence, Boston, and Los Angeles; the first two in that bunch get folks from all over New England. That's not even CLOSE to most of the country; what about for everyone else? It's necessary to get swift, timely treatment. Sure would have helped me a lot if I knew there was a doctor like this just 20-30 minutes from home, but I didn't, because it's not out there.

As my mother, my biggest ally, friend, and co-presenter once said, about parental love of transyouth, "Just keep the love flowing, your child is wonderful, just the way they are." Without her support, my life, my advocacy, making a difference in others' lives, wouldn't be possible. I wish everyone here could know how awesome she is about this. We make a heck of a team, a mother-daughter bond, united by love, care, and compassion, to make a difference; to make a better tomorrow, today. This is what every child who transition needs, whether they go the media route as I have, or not. Just follow the child's lead, love who they are; they are only a child, in a difficult world. For the people that don't get it? Well, I go back to my mother: "It's not a disorder; the problem is people's prejudice."

After all, think about what all of us are doing, with how close this is hitting home in magazines and whatnot these days with transitioning youth? We are everywhere, basically every form of media, and then some; "We are at the forefront of change. We are shaping history. That's exciting!" Even my mother realizes this, and she's excited as I am to make this difference, for kids everywhere, to just be; be who they truly are.

On that note, there's a new reality show coming out for transyouth, currently in casting roles; just submitted a video to them today. I've applied to be on it-they're looking for basically folks with humor, big personalities, supporting families, etc. Slowly but surely my name is getting out there in a pretty big way, but this isn't about me, this is about making a difference so that everyone can be themselves, without feeling bad, or worrying about others. Everyone can have their day, and rise as a beautiful flower, as I have, and not have to worry about just wilting away in the rain, with no warmth of the sun.

Quote from: GorJess on July 18, 2014, 10:09:33 PM

As my mother, my biggest ally, friend, and co-presenter once said, about parental love of transyouth, "Just keep the love flowing, your child is wonderful, just the way they are." Without her support, my life, my advocacy, making a difference in others' lives, wouldn't be possible. I wish everyone here could know how awesome she is about this. We make a heck of a team, a mother-daughter bond, united by love, care, and compassion, to make a difference; to make a better tomorrow, today. This is what every child who transition needs, whether they go the media route as I have, or not. Just follow the child's lead, love who they are; they are only a child, in a difficult world. For the people that don't get it? Well, I go back to my mother: "It's not a disorder; the problem is people's prejudice."

After all, think about what all of us are doing, with how close this is hitting home in magazines and whatnot these days with transitioning youth? We are everywhere, basically every form of media, and then some; "We are at the forefront of change. We are shaping history. That's exciting!" Even my mother realizes this, and she's excited as I am to make this difference, for kids everywhere, to just be; be who they truly are.

On that note, there's a new reality show coming out for transyouth, currently in casting roles; just submitted a video to them today. I've applied to be on it-they're looking for basically folks with humor, big personalities, supporting families, etc. Slowly but surely my name is getting out there in a pretty big way, but this isn't about me, this is about making a difference so that everyone can be themselves, without feeling bad, or worrying about others. Everyone can have their day, and rise as a beautiful flower, as I have, and not have to worry about just wilting away in the rain, with no warmth of the sun.

I just want to say that I am so proud of you and your peers and the work that your doing to help other transyouths. Oh how I so much wish that people like you were around when I was growing up knowing my body was wrong. I won't get into the hell I went through here. Reading your post made me cry tears of joy knowing there's a chance other kids won't have to live the horrors I did, and lose the best years of their lives to misery. Your Mom must be one special lady. Thank you, for being who you are.

Allie

I WISH I was doing what you're doing...these days I guess nineteen is just too old to make a difference

It's not at all! Trust me, I'm 22, though look young for my age; started HRT at a young 20, thankfully original puberty didn't touch me much at all, started therapy stuff mid-teens (those were the four years).

My story goes with the youth narrative simply because it was my story of when I actually got cracking on matters, what most of my life has been so far, and saw how, as a youth, there's injustice, and inequality in the system for youth and teens. Thus, I can relate to it much more than the adult experience. Starting treatment, telling doctors, etc. before age of majority (18, here in the States) vs. after it, I find to be a different story, in what I've been told and lived. Basically, yeah, I get why it's enviable, sometimes triggering, for some to hear my story, in various respects, but it's not close to all pink and roses on the transition front; that's the untold story which I'm trying to bring to light.

Oh yes, and thank you, Allyda; your message assures me that making my story public was the right decision. I wish I could have been around for folks like you, as well, but at least, there's the future we can both conquer, right? We can make the horrors into hopes; fears into dreams. Yeah, my mother is special; I wish you all could meet her- you go to Philly Trans-Health; you'll meet both of us. Let me reverberate that last sentence to you as well; thank YOU for being who you are.

Really?  I'm always inspired by how well our community ages...

And that actually sounds a whole lot like my story (well, except for the bit about puberty not touching me, which is probably why you're in the public eye and I'm stuck behind a screen, even if I'd love to be out in the open).  Personally, I'm still incredibly bitter about how restrictive the system is.  A very huge piece of the puzzle is that the parents need to sign on for a minor to access treatment, even if they do have the resources, which is something that I very seriously doubt will ever change, since there are very few precedents even with more understandable conditions.  I was ready to walk into a doctor's office at sixteen and ask for hormones...the thought of how much better my life could have been makes me sick sometimes.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on July 19, 2014, 12:07:53 AM
Really?  I'm always inspired by how well our community ages...

And that actually sounds a whole lot like my story (well, except for the bit about puberty not touching me, which is probably why you're in the public eye and I'm stuck behind a screen, even if I'd love to be out in the open).  Personally, I'm still incredibly bitter about how restrictive the system is.  A very huge piece of the puzzle is that the parents need to sign on for a minor to access treatment, even if they do have the resources, which is something that I very seriously doubt will ever change, since there are very few precedents even with more understandable conditions.  I was ready to walk into a doctor's office at sixteen and ask for hormones...the thought of how much better my life could have been makes me sick sometimes.

I know exactly how you feel.

Allie

Parents and medical practitioners definitely need the most education as they are the first avenue of treatment.

I went through the whole thing in 1958 to 1976, ages 8 to 17. I tried to get hormones at 13 (1962) but with a mother who was dead-set against anything and a doctor who didn't know squat, I ended up begging, borrowing,, or stealing hormones whenever I could. At 15 (1964) a shrink told my parents I was delusional and offered/threatened to put me in an institution and have me treated with testosterone to "make a man of me". (Testosterone was offered freely but not estrogen - go figger!) I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin as transsexual at the age of 16 but even with his book in hand, most doctors refused to read it and refused to help. Thankfully I lived in a densely populated part of the country and was able to find one doctor to start me on HRT at 17 - only ONE out of all the medical professionals in a dozen cities within reach! Even then SRS was impossible until 1974 when Dr. Biber came on the scene - nobody else would even consider it.

That was SUCH a struggle! Constantly on the search for some kind of support, for any kind of helpful treatment, and with no adult backing. It is bloody amazing I survived - most didn't back then.

It angers me when I hear the phrase "It is just a phase." Well maybe it is for 80% of the kids but there are others who KNOW and, damnit, they need help and support! There needs to be the option for them to go through a normal puberty at the same time as their peers, not delay until some arbitrary age! I think that, in general, the 20% that need help have consistently demonstrated their discomfort from very early childhood so why hold them back?

JMHO

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 18, 2014, 09:00:05 PM
We might not always have seen eye to eye Sasha, but this post is beautiful and touching and made me feel not so alone, as I feel much the same way, if not exactly the same way. I don't really care about gender, but my body is a different story. And I try to stay positive, but the practical considerations start to mount. You need money. I had to apply for a job as a male, and it's going to hurt, but I need a job, and I already have so many strikes that being trans isn't going to win me points.

But, in any event, thanks for this post. Really. Even if only for a night, it made me feel not so alone. Thanks so much.

I feel that some MTFs have problems that we FTMs can't really understand. T is potent stuff (well all hormones are but particularly so). I am read pretty much 98% as male, though I am a short little dude and very slight build.

I feel that as an activist, the point is that trans people *are* NORMAL people. But actually being read as how you want to be read-- well it can be an issue depending on your genetics, I suppose. I think it's society which is sick, but maybe that's my view of it.

I do think these kids have a huge jump on things, and will obviously not need a lot of procedures and so on. (And I did say that in my post). I also think that acceptance by families like that is just huge, they will not have the suicide rates and so on that other trans people have and many other kinds of issues. But I don't think even with the no. of kids coming out that it will mean there won't be other trans people who will still come out later in life, that's still going to happen.


--Jay

Quote from: Northern Jane on July 19, 2014, 05:22:42 AM

It angers me when I hear the phrase "It is just a phase." Well maybe it is for 80% of the kids but there are others who KNOW and, damnit, they need help and support! There needs to be the option for them to go through a normal puberty at the same time as their peers, not delay until some arbitrary age! I think that, in general, the 20% that need help have consistently demonstrated their discomfort from very early childhood so why hold them back?

JMHO

Uh, yea, this! ^^^______^^^ is the best reply I've heard yet! And I agree 100%! I knew, and couldn't get help. All I wanted was help. Not ridicule, not toughened up, not doubts, not arguments. Only help. .................... Gotta stop there for here comes the river........

Allie

My opinion on trans children is that... I'm really jealous of them? I started transition at 16, which is certainly early, but I would've given nearly anything to be this happy earlier on. I really mourn the childhood I could've had as the correct gender- I missed out on so many formative years that I could've spent being really really happy instead of confused, depressed, and suicidal. I'm really happy for trans children, and also really really REALLY jealous of them.