Quote from: Rebis on September 23, 2007, 12:25:28 PM
People can wear potato sacks for all I care.  (as long as they show their knees, breasts, or chest hair)

If people could wear what they want, then there'd be no thrill for the thrill seekers.  You probably wouldn't see a lot of that anymore.

I meant to say "as long as they don't show their knees, breasts, or chest hair"

Posted on: September 23, 2007, 03:19:21 PM

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     I agree with Thundra's response to D (though I believe he should sue his parents for possession of the remaining letters of his name) and I agree with Karen's response to Thundra.

     I've begun to dwell deliberately in a more focussed section of this sight because I've been turned off by remarks that I believe are non-inclusive towards anyone who differs from a certain paradigm. I believe in unity. Some people believe in themselves. I believe that if one of us is not doing well then none of us are doing well. Some others believe that if they are doing well then it doesn't matter how others fare.
     I understand that everyone is different and has different beliefs and world views, however, if an individual is not interested in taking social action, they should not demean those who do take action and who desire to achieve certain goals.

Well, I believe that if ENDA is passed, the guidelines would be similar to those found in states like California.  I have no issues whatsoever as long as everyone shows respect and their attire remains professionally appropriate to the office in which we work or the job we hold.
Just to give you an idea of what California law says about this, here is a quote from a previous thread:

Quote from: Tink on August 05, 2007, 09:37:22 PM

Quote from: State of California AB 196 lawDefinitions: Gender Identity applies only to those individuals who, with the
documented support of medical or psychological professionals
and in accordance with the recognized Informed Consent Model of
Care or the Harry S. Benjamin Standards of Care, are changing or
have changed their physical characteristics to facilitate personal
and public redefinition of their sex as opposite that which they
were assigned at birth.

Sexual orientation means having or being perceived as having
an emotional, physical or sexual attachment to another person
without regard to the sex of that person, or having or being
perceived as having an orientation for such an attachment, or
being perceived as having a self-image or identity not traditionally
associated with one's biological maleness or femaleness.

Transitioning
Employees: The process for transitioning employees is extensive. It is
accomplished with the help of medical professionals in
accordance with recognized standards of care. In general, the
process will involve psychological testing, monitoring, and
counseling, hormone therapy and a trial living period of at least
one-year to ascertain the level of comfort in the reassigned
gender. It is usually at this stage that the employer is given notice
of the employee's diagnosis and intentions.


Restroom Access
Issues: Restroom access issues need to be handled with sensitivity not
only to our obligation to provide transitioning employees with the
same level of restroom access available to non-transgendered
employees, but also to the emotional responses to co-workers to
the idea of sharing facilities with a transgendered co-worker. Our
restroom access policy is clear. An employee should use the
facility based on his/her current gender. However, once transition
is complete, a transgendered employee has the right to the same
access as a non-transgendered employee of the same gender.

Appearance
Standards: Employees who are transitioning are required, prior to surgery, to
assume the role for their reassigned gender. This process is
known as the Real Life Experience. Although professionals may
recommend living in the desired gender as a step to surgery, the
decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience
remains the employee's responsibility. Part of that experience is
dressing in the reassigned gender role.
A transitioning employee's attire should remain professionally
appropriate to the office in which they work and the job they hold.
The same dress codes and rules for behavior apply to
transgendered as to other employees. If, as a manager, you are
concerned about the appearance your transgendered employee
will present when she or he starts coming to work in the other
gender role, ask for a picture of her or him in professional attire. If
you still have concerns, these should be addressed with your
employee. If she or he dresses or behaves inappropriately, this
issue should be dealt with the same way it would with any other
employee.


*Employees may use any restroom that corresponds with their full-time gender presentation. Management requires only that, after notifying HR of a decision to transition, a transitioning employee present according to his or her gender identity consistently thereafter.
*A transitioning employee may agree to use a unisex restroom, if one is available and reasonably accessible, for some period during the process of transition.
Employees may use a restroom that corresponds with their biological sex; employees who have completed sex reassignment surgery may use restrooms that correspond with the biological sex to which they transitioned.
*Employers should also note that new Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act regulations reinforce the confidentiality of employee medical information. As a result, unless an employee tells management directly, management may not know whether or when an employee has had sex-reassignment surgery, and therefore may have difficulty implementing a policy based on this standard.

Quote extracted from this link.

tink

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 01:33:56 PM
And so, in fact, many DO NOT SUPPORT queer folks or our agenda of change. They do not owe anyone anything. They have nothing in common with queers, or the queer agenda. Because they are str8 men and women, for whom the rules against queers do not apply. Simply put, it is not their fight.

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I mean heck, it IS ironic, but I'm trying to join the same group that the variant people are seeking tolerance from. But because of that, I don't want to be part of this GLBT thing. I'm not part of a "community." In fact, whenever talking to people, I NEVER refer to "my community" or even "other transsexuals." I just say "other people who have done what I've done." The idea of "pride days" and "out and proud" doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'm not trying to be conceited or arrogant about it, it's just that there's that fundamental difference between my goals and needs and that of the GLBT "community." While they all want protection as a special class of people, I want the right to NOT be a special class of people. But every time I raise my hand to fight "for my rights as a transsexual," I suddenly feel that much less of a normal woman, ya know?

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on September 23, 2007, 04:54:07 PM

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 01:33:56 PM
And so, in fact, many DO NOT SUPPORT queer folks or our agenda of change. They do not owe anyone anything. They have nothing in common with queers, or the queer agenda. Because they are str8 men and women, for whom the rules against queers do not apply. Simply put, it is not their fight.

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I mean heck, it IS ironic, but I'm trying to join the same group that the variant people are seeking tolerance from. But because of that, I don't want to be part of this GLBT thing. I'm not part of a "community." In fact, whenever talking to people, I NEVER refer to "my community" or even "other transsexuals." I just say "other people who have done what I've done." The idea of "pride days" and "out and proud" doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'm not trying to be conceited or arrogant about it, it's just that there's that fundamental difference between my goals and needs and that of the GLBT "community." While they all want protection as a special class of people, I want the right to NOT be a special class of people. But every time I raise my hand to fight "for my rights as a transsexual," I suddenly feel that much less of a normal woman, ya know?

~Kate~

Seconded!

tink

Understood ladies.

Then, why exactly should the GLB community be doing anything to aid your position?

Kate, you hit the nail on the head when you drew the distinction between queers and transitioning folks.

Queers are fighting for independence, and expanding rights.

Transitioning folks are fighting for the right to assimilate into the heterosexist culture that dominates everything. Truth be told, none of you would be here if you had not been forced to seek out like-minded people, because transitioning is NOT your identity, it is a phase.

In no small way, that actually makes you all my enemy instead of my ally. Any person that works to keep the status quo is working against me. Yet, I am called upon to be supportive and understanding. It's wonderfully ironic.

Tink spells that out very clearly when she quotes the rules, which apply to allowing transitioning folks to dress and behave as they like, as long it falls within the assimilationist goals. But it prevents anyone from doing anything that falls outside of those gender norms for men and women. So anyone not like her and Kate, i.e. transitioning, is screwed, and they are OK with that fact.

So, should transitioning folk be removed from the GLBT umbrella? I would state emphatically yes, if T stands for anything other than trans-identified folks. GLBT should not include trasitioning folks that intend to assimilate, or transsexuals that plan to do the same. Otherwise, we queers are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Posted on: September 23, 2007, 08:38:41 PM

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QuoteI've begun to dwell deliberately in a more focussed section of this sight because I've been turned off by remarks that I believe are non-inclusive towards anyone who differs from a certain paradigm. I believe in unity. Some people believe in themselves. I believe that if one of us is not doing well then none of us are doing well. Some others believe that if they are doing well then it doesn't matter how others fare.

They don't want unity m'friend, they want the status quo. The only difference between them and the gender police is that the police want no one to transition, while they want to control who transitions, the extent of said transition, and the exact parameters of that transition.
They are the champions of conformity and assimilation.

But when I point that obvious difference out, I am labelled as being divisive. I don't think so.
Let me state for the record, as clearly as possible, that anyone ought to be able to dress as they like as they feel like it ~ as long as they are not getting nekid in public. I agree that women ought not be flashing their breasts or their camel toe, in public. I don't want to see a guy's chest or his stuff in public either.

I find it especially ironic that it is OK for people to be out in public flashing flesh and leaving absolutely nothing to the imagination, but when two consenting adults decide to get busy in the privacy of a toilet stall, that is wrong? That is very twisted to me. I don't care what people do as long as it does not affect me. People smoking in my presence is more afflicting to me than two people having sex in a bathroom that I cannot see. [sorry DE] I could care less.

Quote from: Kate on September 23, 2007, 04:54:07 PM

It's not. Not really.

See, thing is, all the "variant" people, such as gender queers, gays, lesbians, crossdressers, drag queens, androgynes, gender-benders, she-males... are all fighting for the right to be DIFFERENT.

But me... I'm fighting for the right to be NORMAL, to assimilate. I've always felt a bit hypocritical to be telling everyone, "really, I'm just an ordinary woman!" followed by "but I want to have laws passed to protect me as a special type of woman!"

I do not like this. Gays and Lesbians fighting to be different. Not really. They are fighting to be recognised as human beings - not someone who people are ashamed of.

CDs, Drag Queens - Are they figting at all. They just want to be left alone to get on with their lives and to be treated normaly. When I CD is in female mode they expect to be treat like any other female - they want to feel normal.

I can not speak for gender-benders and she-males. The androgynes can speak for themselves.

But everyone in general wants to be treated as normal people - not people who everyone else loosk down on.


Alice

When in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 09:08:35 PM
So anyone not like her and Kate, i.e. transitioning, is screwed, and they are OK with that fact.

Nah, not even close. Come on, you know me better than that by now. I believe in freedom and fairness. No one has a right to impose their worldview upon everyone else. But for TSs, there has to be a better way than creating laws to protect "us" as a special group when most of us are doing everything in our power to NOT be thought of as a special group.

It just seems like we're constantly addressing endless symptoms, and never the root causes. Why can't we just make a law saying, "No one has a right to justify business or legal decisions using religious bigotry?" Tada! What a great world that would create, ya know? Now you don't have to run around putting out the endless fires of where bigotry pops up.

QuoteI would state emphatically yes, if T stands for anything other than trans-identified folks. GLBT should not include trasitioning folks that intend to assimilate, or transsexuals that plan to do the same. Otherwise, we queers are shooting ourselves in the foot.

Well no, I mean it's not like ALL non-TS people are trying to "maintain the status quo." I'm not your enemy just because I personally want to assimilate. I'm still quite capable and willing to fight for fairness and equality for variant people, just not AS a variant person.

~Kate~

Quote from: Jeannette on September 23, 2007, 11:21:43 PM
When in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Well the standard laws create problems like depression for me. I hate being put in a box.

Alice

Quote from: Thundra on September 23, 2007, 09:08:35 PM
Transitioning folks are fighting for the right to assimilate into the heterosexist culture that dominates everything.

While there's some truth in what you say, this is something of an oversimplification. Yes, in general the personal goal of a transsexual is to assimilate into mainstream culture in a gender role that already exists. However, just focussing on this ignores a couple of points that are relevant.

First, even those of us who transition will have a non-passing phase. Even if it's just a phase, during that phase they are seen as queer by the general population. I for one wouldn't dare to claim that someone who went through such a phase has become an enemy just because they don't want to stay there. Second, quite a few of those who transition end up in one of the GLB categories.

Yes, I agree that someone who has transitioned fully has far less motivation to be active in the GLBT movement than someone who hasn't yet completed their transition or who has no intention to transition fully. Nevertheless, I don't see why that would automatically make them any more attached to the heteronormative gender-binary culture than the cisgendered majority. There is variation of course (as seen from the discussions here), but in my (admittedly limited) experience the disassociation from queer culture is more a matter of survival tactics than overall goals.

Come to think of it, to some extent it's also a right vs. left thing: the right-wing ideology has a strong emphasis on 'what's good for the individual is good for the community', while the left-wing one has it the other way, 'what's good for the community is good for the individual'.

  Nfr

   Romans were slave rapers.

The root article that led to the rebuttal article this topic is about has made another appearance -- this time in a Texas newspaper.

Katia posted the news link here.

Karen

OK, look. For me, here is the bottom line.

Everyone has the right to be treated with respect, to dress as they wish, and behave as they see fit ~ as long as it is not harmfull to someone else ~ NOT because they can fit into any category based on whatever variables you'd care to list. They deserve those rights and freedoms simply because they are a human being, and all human beings are worthy of love, tolerance and understanding.

Now, having said that, IMO, a person that squires themself away into the ruling majority with smoke and mirrors, and who had to have tolerance and acceptance in order to reach the point they are presently at in life, are rather hypocritical when they choose to enforce those same rules on other people. If you desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture, that is your right. But don't expect me or other queers to give you support to reach a point so that you can then heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you, or behind you on the same path.

If I get the feeling that someone is attempting to go from  point of weakness [transitioning] to a point of strength, [stealth] in order to heap abuse on other people ~ to go from oppressed to oppressor ~ I will cut them off at the knees in a heartbeat. When you support the status quo that oppresses anyone, than you are my enemy. I have no problem with people moving through the queer community during their transition. I have a rather large problem with people that do so, and then support the very rules that you were hiding from in the queer community during your transition. That makes you a hypocrite in my eyes, and I don't like hypocrites. At all.

It would be stupid of queers to suppoort people to reach a point where they can work against us. It would be self-defeating. At this point, I am so p.o. by this whole thing, that I hope ENDA fails. Then we can re-write it to exclude those that would be discriminatory. It would be rather simple to do so if the rules only protected those that were out. Anyone living in stealth would have no protections. If they wanted protections, they could form their own organization to fight for them. But then they would have to be out and not stealth?  Quite the conundrum that.

I wonder what post-op people will do when and if the conservatives decide to challenge their status in law? Then maybe they would "get it?"

Quote from: Thundra on September 24, 2007, 02:26:32 PM
If you desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture, that is your right. But don't expect me or other queers to give you support to reach a point so that you can then heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you, or behind you on the same path.

I'm just not sure why you're equating "desire to assimilate into the heterosexist culture" with "heap discriminatory behavior upon those unlike you?"

Sure, I want to blend back in and never be seen as a "transsexual" ever again. But that doesn't mean I'm automatically a bigot, does it? The heterosexist culture isn't the enemy of variant people... the religious right is, IMHO.

~Kate~

Thundra has probably run into the same types I have in the past. That is those who have gone so far into stealth that they will speak poorly about T people in general and lash out viciously to those who they deem are too unpassable and giving everyone else who can a bad image. I have also known a few to slink into the LGB community and bad mouth the T community. I would like to say it is rare but I have seen it way too often.

Those who benefit from those of us who put ourselves on the front line should be those willing to work for the freedoms and support people in general. It is not too much to ask that everyone give a hand in lifting the weight that has been dropped across our shoulders. By ours, I mean everyone. Rich, poor, straight, LGBT, black, white, what the frack ever. There are those who do not want to be bothered for whatever reason and it is those that many have a beef with and will confront where ever they may be.

QuoteThundra has probably run into the same types I have in the past. That is those who have gone so far into stealth that they will speak poorly about T people in general and lash out viciously to those who they deem are too unpassable and giving everyone else who can a bad image. I have also known a few to slink into the LGB community and bad mouth the T community. I would like to say it is rare but I have seen it way too often.

B-I-N-G-O!

If "passing" means badmouthing queers to fit in, that is what they will do.

If "passing" means holding everyone's feet to the fire regarding "the rules for gender," that is what they will do.

If someone wants to walk away and disappear into the mists forever and ever, that is fine.
But someone that wants to be "deep stealth" and get to put their two censt in?  Nuh-uh ba-by! You wanna hide, go and hide - but keep your trap shut and your opinion to yourself. You can't have it both ways.

   I'm still disturbed by the attitudes of those who show no respect or support for off-brand peoples like myself.  I am unable to express my anger or frustration the way Thundra does, so I'm just going to say, "This discussion is not finished".

I feel very strange reading the sharply dichotomous transsexual vs. queer divide here. This doesn't describe me at all.

* I'm a gender-conforming woman currently transitioning who personally aspires to nothing more than being just another woman. I wear dresses, heels, pearls, makeup--like many of my female co-workers. I have a focus on women's issues and belong to women's organizations. In my gender presentation and personal behavior I'm about as ordinary and conservative a woman as can be (except for not menstruating).

* I also identify as a queer woman, belong to several LGBT organizations, take part in the Dyke March, Pride March, and other Pride events every year, and volunteer as an activist in those organizations. Currently working on passing ENDA and the Matthew Shepard hate crimes bill. I bond closely with lesbians and like to be friends with gay men. I identify as queer because I'm either bisexual or lesbian or somewhere in between, anyway I'm a woman who loves women, and whatever you call it, I'm definitely queer. And even if I didn't identify as queer, I would still be an activist for LGBT equality because it's the right thing to do.

Frankly, I'm baffled why anyone would see a dichotomy between the two as necessary. There is no such dichotomy for me. Assimilation into my gender role does not necessarily mean heterosexism.

You realize that you are rarity however, do you not? There are a hundred of them, for every one of you dear. Leigh was a queer too, and she was the only one I'd ever known that had transitioned. Which is why she was beloved by the queer community here. She was as real as it gets.

Nobody is saying that someone should not be str8-identified either. Half of my GF's are str8 women in relationships or not. But, none of them opt for the status quo, which I guess also makes them queer-identified in no small way.

Their attitude is the same as mine. Who cares what someone else does as long as it is not hurting me or someone else in the process? Male-identified people that like to dress feminine and be addressed as such? Whatever?  Same is true for the opposite. People that live in between gender roles ~ or gender F*** practitioners. Whatever makes you happy.

People ought not be penalized from having a place to live, or from holding a job because someone else dislikes the way they dress. That is just stupid IMO. The world would be a much better place if everyone would mind their own GD business.

Posted on: September 25, 2007, 06:24:46 PM

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QuoteWhen in Rome, do what Romans do.  Unfortunately strict laws have to be enforced because there will be always be peeps that abuse the system.  There will always be someone that wants to go to work naked or have sex in an employer toilet and demand that other peeps have to be alright with it.  Sorry but it doesn't work that way.  A law is supposed to put an end to a "problem" not produce more problems.

Whatev. People always advocate for laws when it benefits them, whether it is bad for other people or not. People that transition have been whining forever that the rules are against them. Now the rules are possibly being changed, and the first thing transitioning people want to do is try and enforce those laws on "other" people.

This disgusts me. A law is supposed to prevent someone from doing something harmful to themselves or other people. Just as it was wrong for the conformist rules of gender to be codified into law in a way that discriminated against people that transition and assimilate into this heterosexist society, it is just as wrong for those rules to be changed to discriminate against people that transition [or not], and DO NOT wish to assimilate into heterosexism.

Quote from: Thundra on September 25, 2007, 06:43:17 PM
You realize that you are rarity however, do you not?

No, I do not realize it. I personally know lots of others like me. That's why this discussion came as a surprise.

Who is Leigh?