An afterthought: I do not have any problems with gender, though, as I do not try to impose my beliefs on others.  I do, however, desire that I not be forced into "gender" for myself.

I'm non-binary (neutrois) and want to transition to a neutral body. Unfortunately hormonally this doesn't work, since either estrogen or testosterone are required for bone health, and there are some effects of T which would make my dysphoria worse. However, I'd like to be infertile and appear androgynous (body shape, voice, mannerisms); the latter is what I'm currently working on.

Quote from: Taka on October 31, 2014, 06:19:47 AM
they're trying to make that law in denmark, suzi.
never take your freedom for granted...

Most important statement made on this entire thread!

Quote from: Ev on November 02, 2014, 09:21:25 AM
I don't mind being called "he", "she", or even "it"...but what I do hate is having to be told I have to identify soley as ONE of the gender binary types as a static thing.  Call me any one, just don't limit me to one.  The fact that I initially "had" to say I was a "female trapped in a man's body" to get therapy was frustrating enough, but I swallowed my pride and did it.

So, what I guess I am getting at is that just because one goes through the trans process doesn't mean that they are "the wrong binary gender in the wrong binary body."  I have found that if women want to hit the drog zone they often have to cut their hair, whearas if the men want to hit the same zone they have to grow it out.  When someone desires a "balancing factor" to get their desired results into the Q/A/? zone, THAT factor is often trans-therapy.

it's not pride i'd have to swallow, but a whole lot of very justified anger. if i choose to go the binary route to transition.
i absolutely hate the thought of going through a mental ward that has already driven several young people to suicide.

i have no idea what the drog zone is. but i found that i had to both cut and let my hair grow in order to feel comfortable at all. when none will yield, the compromise can get interesting. i'm just glad this hairdo is kind of popular these days, the only thing that makes me look weirder is the color.

never went through any trans therapy. i had a couple meeting with a sexologist who's also learned about gender identity and the diversity thereof. but what's the point when i already know who i am and what i want, and nobody seems able to give me that (hrt)...

Quote from: Taka on November 03, 2014, 03:29:58 AM
it's not pride i'd have to swallow, but a whole lot of very justified anger. if i choose to go the binary route to transition.
i absolutely hate the thought of going through a mental ward that has already driven several young people to suicide.

i have no idea what the drog zone is. but i found that i had to both cut and let my hair grow in order to feel comfortable at all. when none will yield, the compromise can get interesting. i'm just glad this hairdo is kind of popular these days, the only thing that makes me look weirder is the color.

never went through any trans therapy. i had a couple meeting with a sexologist who's also learned about gender identity and the diversity thereof. but what's the point when i already know who i am and what i want, and nobody seems able to give me that (hrt)...

If you're not suicidal, you have nothing to worry about.  If you are wise to their methods, you may be able to work around it.

"Drog zone" is a term I use to describe the androgynous zone of appearance/behavior, as it is oft considered "non-binary".

I have this philosophy: even if you have to lie to others, never lie to yourself.  I will lie to get what I want, and that is no lie.  If I have to tell them I am "MTF" to get the HRT, than so be it...and I did...but I knew what I wanted, and just had to play their game long enough.  When they asked if I was going to go "girly-girl and into men," I told them nah, "Tomboy lesbian."  It was enough to convince them I was really "MTF" without having to go to far into the "female" mannerisms and sexual preferences.

What I found funny is that after I got past the "gatekeepers" and actually into the doctors, they told me I didn't have to do that anymore at this point.  I could call myself androgynous/genderqueer/non-binary so forth so forth as long as I understood the effects of the HRT.  It then dawned on me that the ones holding the keys to the kingdom are still yet to get the message from the castle proper to start letting more people through.  I think in time it will be where honest people don't have to lie anymore.

As far as your situation is concerned, in all honesty I don't know what to say directly.  I guess what I meant to say is keep your eyes, ears, and mind open and look for opportunities.  I am one of those people who hits the books when dealing with people in these systems to better understand my rights and ways to negotiate...and since I am not familar with all the laws in your area and the people you deal with I couldn't really be of any assistance beyond my "arm yourself" suggestion.

there's so much wrong in my country that i don't even feel like explaining it again.
i've left bits and pieces even in this thread.

i'll do my best to find a way around the system, because going into it will end up with me telling them how terrible human beings they really are if they don't meet me with the respect i expect of medical professionals.

in the end, it seems i'll be working on changing the whole system, to accommodate for all trans people who need more help than just a little talk with some gender therapist. no idea how to do that, but i've at least started by giving an interview to some researchers. i think science will be the way to go, and maybe alliances with the feminists.

Quote from: Taka on November 03, 2014, 05:21:23 AM
there's so much wrong in my country that i don't even feel like explaining it again.
i've left bits and pieces even in this thread.

i'll do my best to find a way around the system, because going into it will end up with me telling them how terrible human beings they really are if they don't meet me with the respect i expect of medical professionals.

in the end, it seems i'll be working on changing the whole system, to accommodate for all trans people who need more help than just a little talk with some gender therapist. no idea how to do that, but i've at least started by giving an interview to some researchers. i think science will be the way to go, and maybe alliances with the feminists.

I'll admit, I have not read everything and that is why I can't say I know your plight exactly, nor do you need explain to me if you have already placed the details into the thread.  Having the right allies/friends/connections as well as knowledge can make all the difference, I agree.  I wish you the best.

For those of you lamenting the possibility of forcing yourself into a binary in order to receive surgery or hormones, I don't mean to be patronizing, but I hope you've exhausted your options. It seems like more and more U.S. surgeons are beginning to operate without the WPATH letter or for those that don't, there are understanding therapists with whom you can be honest and will help navigate the hoops with you. (And if there's no one local, I bet there are therapists out there who would sympathize with your predicament and take you on as a remote client through Skype...)  In my case, I have a therapist - across the world, on Skype - but I didn't have to ask for anything but her continuing emotional guidance because I went to Thailand for surgery, which required me to check boxes on a form (where I answered, honestly, that I take medication for anxiety and depression) but they otherwise never brought up my mental health at all. I was also honest with the surgeon in Thailand - I was the first non-binary patient he had ever knowingly seen - and we talked about what it meant to be "FTN" and why I didn't want nipples (also a first for him). And he listened, asked semi-appropriate questions ("So...you are not a man...you want no nipples but the chest to look like a woman's chest or a man's chest? You want a girlfriend or a boyfriend?") but never questioned my judgment and did everything I asked of him. I've personally talked to two other Westerners who went to Thailand for surgery, one in the U.K. and one in Germany, and both went there because they could not meet their country's rigid sets of requirements to qualify for surgery in their respective countries. Both came away a bit frazzled from dealing across cultures, but otherwise extremely satisfied with the results.

I know less about hormones because I'm not planning on taking them, but I do remember reading of at least one free- or low-cost clinic somewhere on the American west coast that was giving out T to anyone who requested it, no questions asked. (This was a few years ago, I don't know what's happened since then...) I also recently helped proofread an English translation of a Thai informational booklet about self-dosing your own female hormone regimen, where-there-is-no-doctor style, in poor countries where hormones are easy to access but difficult to regulate. I would imagine a step onto the streets of New York or San Francisco would lead to many of the same products...I'm sure there are many other ways to access hormones, some safer and more legal than others, as well, for those who are determined.

oh, surgery won't be difficult to get. there's always a way for that.
but hormones are something completely different, and it seems rather stupid to have to go outside the country to get something that i can even afford to pay for myself. it feels equally idiotic to have to travel a thousand miles even within my own country just to get hrt, but i'll consider that option before binary transition, and binary transition before leaving the country.
running away won't change the system, and those who come after me will meet the same problems as me unless i do what i can to change things.

Quote from: Taka on November 01, 2014, 07:14:17 AM
it's true about denmark. some idiots have decided it's a good idea to require those who want cross sex hormones to go through that one and only national gid clinic. if the law passes, they can revoke any doc's licence who gives hrt to a transgender person. they've already a few years ago started a major witch hunt where that good of the patient isn't even taken into consideration. the gid clinic has seriously long waitlists, it can take over a year to get in for evaluation after the initial interview, and they work on long past outdated harry benjamin principles. no nb people will ever get through that evaluation without lying, even binary trans people have to lie about their degree of dysphoria, and all kinds of ridiculous stuff. i'd automatically be rejected because i have a child, trans guys are required to hate their genitals to death and be utterly disgusted by the thought of carrying a child.
i'm not far from wishing all the misery life can possibly give a person, upon those idiots who are trying to drive young trans persons to suicide.

contact natkat for a link to a petition to get a right to treatment under informed consent. that would allow doctors to do what they know is best for the patient, rather than be forced to reject people in need. many trans people are in danger of losing access to life saving hrt because they've gotten that from private practitioners after the national gid clinic rejected them.

if the law is passed in denmark, there's a real danger it will be in norway too. what's already difficult will become completely impossible.

So in the case of Denmark, the government would be the "gatekeepers"? I'm really kind of speechless on that. It does kind of sadden me to think that a governmental entity can have that much control over someone and their lives. Actually it kind of sickens me really. I think it leads to a dangerous precedent in other areas of the gender or self identification realm. I just really wouldn't put anything past the power elite.

What gets me here in the states is insurance and coding.  My hormone letter specifically states I am diagnosed with a non binary scenario, that I am outside the benjamine standards, and that hormones are recommended.  But I am out of pocket for my e-cyp, my spiro is coded to heart stuff, my finesteride to bph (which I do have), and my therapist I pay hard cash to.  And he is worth it.  When the government stuff kicks in here in the states, dysphoria is not covered, and I will pay my endo out of pocket rather than be forced to a clinic.  Especially with my volatile endocrine system, it is a tough one.

So, where is  the SOC and recommendations if I can't get coverage for the hormones that I need to prevent me going way off the deep end?

Right now, the gate is closed for surgery, as I am non binary.... however, it is also because after 2 years of therapy the collateral damage would be horrific, and I am not ready for prime time as they say.  I don't sit when I pee.... not a girl in a male body.  I am an androgyne....physically that label would be quite accurate, lately it is socially too.... still fine tuning my comfort zones.

So, surgery, meds, etc.  An entire years income for surgery, plus getting the right folks to sign off, if I was not bound to the one I love.  Which I remain, and that is forever.

Its a mess, and I don't know what leverage we have out there.  It is grossly unfair, and the stuff of lawsuits, but then the suits will be the ones controlling our fate.

The whole thing thoroughly pisses me off.  I do, however, strongly believe that a lot of self knowledge and awareness is needed prior to making choices, as self deception always results in pain.

Nuts.  Yes, we need to change the systems, at least there is more awareness now of what is going on with us. 

One quarter of my income is needed to take care of my ongoing, lifelong transitional care.  A quarter.  Supporting a family of five, how is that fair to them?  I am working class, we are crushed under this stuff.  And they (my wife and kids) don't need to see me in the wards or hanging from a tree because of no hormones.... or on psyche meds because of a refusal to acknowledge the real way to treat dysphoria.  My wife almost left because she couldn't take seeing the agony I was going through in the first year of transition.  Now, however, all is well, but we are dirt poor, and my father is funding my meds, but he has stage 4 cancer and is in his mid 80's.  And I love him very deeply.

Mad fairy here.

Blessings

Satinjoy.

Quote from: Satinjoy on November 04, 2014, 06:13:33 AM
Right now, the gate is closed for surgery, as I am non binary.... however, it is also because after 2 years of therapy the collateral damage would be horrific, and I am not ready for prime time as they say.

If you were to decide that surgery is for you, I think you'd find it fairly easy to get that gate to open. I'm non-binary, and I was able to get surgery almost exactly a year after going full-time.

Reassuring, time will tell for me, long range.

Blessings

Satinjoy

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on October 30, 2014, 08:36:48 PM
So I ask all of you who are both-what are your experiences?  How do you deal with the prevailing view what one identity cancels the other out?

I dont know if I can speak for it,
I feel typical ftm, but at the other hand I dont want all surgeries and I dont want to be typical male in the sense that I nessesarry are going to look masculine and stuff.
its botheredsome even when there are expectations in the trans comunity what nonbinary will and binary will and even when we put these into boxes, its also the reason why I dont like people using gender neutral pronomes in my area, Not because I despite them but because they at my current area put me into a box I dont want to be put in.

I dont think there is much to do other than education and giving space, I will try to start up a special meeting for non-binary as a first step. The binary had got alot of space so far, yet the non-binary are the most opressed specially here in denmark where as taka say, there chance for transition will be equal zero, if the new guide(law) will pass by. even before that non-binary has less space and are viewed as "less-good role models" than a binary one who pass.

I find it problematic but its not only for transgenders its like this, in the general glbt there are a hiracy of those who are most accepted and spoken of and those which we never heard or talk about.

NatKat,
     I appreciate your coming here and expressing your thoughts on this. Like Taka said, we are so fortunate here with our LGBT freedoms in the US and Great Britain so far, but we shouldn't ever take it for granted as it could change. I know you are an activist and are fighting an uphill battle concerning trans issues in Denmark where NB are on the bottom of the heap, we hope you and your friends will prevail!