stealth , just going about , no stares, no children asking their mothers just being invisible . the data being base on your own perception of your environment rather than scientifically acquired data , although I prefer to consider this poll in terms of some what of scientific in nature.

Quote from: stephaniec on December 07, 2014, 08:58:21 AM
stealth , just going about , no stares, no children asking their mothers just being invisible . the data being base on your own perception of your environment rather than scientifically acquired data , although I prefer to consider this poll in terms of some what of scientific in nature.

This sounds more like "passing" than stealth to me.

Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 03, 2014, 02:02:00 PM
That is a really good question.


I don't tell anyone I'm trans, no one asks or suspects. I would have to tell them myself. Is that stealth?

If it is then let me warn that stealth comes with its own slew of issues. Stealth does not = mental health or the resolution of trans-issues!

this!

Quote from: Susan522 on December 07, 2014, 04:07:40 PM
This sounds more like "passing" than stealth to me.

I guess passing and stealth are pretty much intertwined  where is the line separating begin and end

hmm I guess sticking up for pre ops and non op girls isn't allowed here? My post got deleted I don't know what i said wrong other than pointing out someone's problematic comments towards a large part of the trans community...

There's a difference between "passing" and "stealth".

Passing is purely a physical aspect. How you look, sound and behave. I believe a decent amount (at least around 50%) of transwomen can become passable, especially with those transitioning in their late teens and early 20s. Hormones and youth tend to work great together. As someone who previously thought I'd be an unpassable mess, I'm already seeing myself get looks and being misgendered in boy-mode. With just hormones and good voice training, I'd say at least 50% of MtFs will be passable if they transitioned by 25. With FFS, that number is probably close to 90%. You have to be extremely unfortunate in your body and facial structure to be unpassable after FFS, or simply not have put any effort into your voice.

Stealth is social. You need to be passable to be stealth obviously. But you also need to cut off ties with your relationships pre-transition. You need to someone manage or hide your work or school history if you did that as a male. Age IS a big factor here because your paper trail only gets longer and longer as you get older. If you transitioned by time you finished college? You probably have a decent chance at establishing yourself stealth - no one really looks back to your high school days or younger. If you transition after college, or after being in a job, it will be tougher. Your transcripts will show male, your references will show male. It becomes very difficult your past as you enter adulthood.

Quote from: evecrook on December 07, 2014, 07:19:45 PM
I guess passing and stealth are pretty much intertwined  where is the line separating begin and end

You can't have stealth without passing, but you can certainly have passing without stealth.  They are intertwined in this way, for sure.  Stealth is defined differently by different people, but it is just going to become a less and less relevant term, because A) good luck erasing your history in this age, and B) the day is coming when there will be no reason to hide your history anymore anyway.  Not soon maybe, but maybe sooner than we think.  Progress has been amazing the last couple years.

Quote from: Nevara on December 07, 2014, 08:41:43 PM
There's a difference between "passing" and "stealth".

This is what I was trying to say but I didn't find the words! I was wondering if I was missing something but I believe I confused stealth with passing. Haha. I guess I just realized what's important to me.

BUT you can always get them to change your name in your transcripts & references after transition, at least in Europe. It just requires the guts to ask them. Social networks are different.

It's hard to put a percentage on it.  I'd say a good two-thirds of MTF's will eventually blend in and could go stealth if they wanted to completely cut off their past.  The reason it seems like fewer are successful is because we're only aware of the awkward transitioners and those who can't pass. We don't see the ones who do blend in and just fade into society.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we can pick out trans people because we know what to look for. But Grace said something a while ago that I think is exactly right.  Most people walk around with the mantra "I'm cis, you're cis, we're all cis."  So unless something really sticks out as unusual (severe beard shadow, low voice with male inflections, etc), most people don't even have transgender as a possibility in their minds.

Quote from: Annabolton on December 07, 2014, 08:28:52 PM
hmm I guess sticking up for pre ops and non op girls isn't allowed here? My post got deleted I don't know what i said wrong other than pointing out someone's problematic comments towards a large part of the trans community...

Your post got deleted as I cleaned up the thread from a post I was removing.

I don't know about the percentage, but I started transition in my early 20s and have not had FFS (and am pre-op for SRS). I do however, pass. I can not be completely stealth because too many people in my life know, which is a reason to move or migrate after SRS for me.

I have worked at an internship for 5 months and then someone outed me to the boss there by accident, and he was flabbergasted. I have had a few experiences like that, and they have convinced me that I obviously pass for cis, even if I don't think so when I look in the mirror. Also an oral surgeon that used to do FFS surgeries, told me I don't need it.

I do not know if this is an argument against what some said about post puberty transitioning and 'needing' FFS. Because there are a few indications that my puberty didn't fully complete (I don't have an adam's apple and my voice never really got into male ranges, a serious lack of body hair compared to cis women I know, even pre hrt, and a few other things), which obviously isn't standard in your early twenties. I do know others that transitioned around my age and some have a real bad time with passing unfortunately, but I think most that transition before 25 still have a pretty good chance of passing without needing FFS.

I think a lot just depends on facial characteristics  regardless of age. I have a feeling Edward G. Robinson would have a harder time going stealth at 20 or 40.

I had to buy my passability since without surgery it was impossible for me. The facial features that HRT could not change were too much in male ranges to ever look remotely closed to a woman.

I could say that with FFS and being glad that I am not particularty tall or have a too wide ribcage, I have attained what I call "basic passability": My body does not betray me, but other factors such as voice work, dressing properly or mannerisms still aren't worked enough to grant me full passability.

After passability, Stealth would be complicated. Work experience I cannot wipe or change will always clock me if they perform a background check, so even if I decide to go stealth, it will never be deep stealth.

I have been watching this thread while I was lurking.  I have always assumed I passed and really didn't give it any thought.  Stephaniec has been exploring this topic for some time, and has gotten me to re-think my assumptions about stealth and passing.  I really appreciate her ability to have such a hard conversation and push these things out into the light.

I believe passing is mostly about our own expectations.  If we think about everything we aren't, we can all find ways in which we will never pass.  Society / culture will see us in the spectrum of female or male-ness.  If we have the will, I think we can all find our perfect spot in that spectrum to 'fit in'.  Perhaps gaining or losing a lot of weight is required, or stopping our extroverted tendencies and stop talking in public.  Maybe we need to dress like an old frumpy battle-axe, or have a lot of surgeries.  The list is long of things to try.  Unfortunately, after all that, we probably still don't pass 100% of the time, or worse, being that woman or man may not be the pot of gold we hoped for when we began this journey.

So setting my expectations is how I pass.  My first customer is myself.  If I feel and act female as I understand it, I become what I want to be in my mind.  If others don't see that at first, they usually seem to come around as I consistently portray myself in my chosen niche.  Over time it becomes easier, and my friends drop their guards and trust me so that I can do the same with them.

I will say that in today's world, passing and stealth are very hard compared to the 'old days' when I started (1980's).  In those days it seemed everyone had an aunt who had a deep voice and that was enough to set their minds on the right perception, but today we are out and proud and on the cover of Time, and not at all trying to be stealth.  Today, people see that tall deep-voiced woman differently, and it can be harder to avoid discussions about gender with even casual acquaintances. 

Stealth has so many definitions, I am stealth in that I have broken the tie between my new name and my old in every way possible and only my closest friends and family knew me as both.  That doesn't mean others don't know I'm trans, just that they can't easily track down my history.  I'm not sure that qualifies as stealth, but in combination with my passability, it provides me with a safe and rewarding space to exist. 

QuoteI do not know if this is an argument against what some said about post puberty transitioning and 'needing' FFS. Because there are a few indications that my puberty didn't fully complete (I don't have an adam's apple and my voice never really got into male ranges, a serious lack of body hair compared to cis women I know, even pre hrt, and a few other things), which obviously isn't standard in your early twenties. I do know others that transitioned around my age and some have a real bad time with passing unfortunately, but I think most that transition before 25 still have a pretty good chance of passing without needing FFS.

I started hrt in my early 30s and can safely say (I think) that I don't need FFS and that I blend fine, and this is true of several of my friends I've made here that are the same age, that transitioned at same time.  However, there are things abt my my body that would have been better if I had done it in my teens, for sure.  But the idea that it's impossible to pass if u don't transition in your teens is incorrect.  It's just that it will be harder and less likely the longer u wait.  Genetics play a big role either way.

Wow. It seems so obvious now that stealth is yet another spectrum...from a kind of "stealth option," to "absolute stealth".

This would be a fascinating research topic. We trans people are somethin' else! 

It's more of a generational thing.  Almost nobody is doing stealth witness protection style anymore, so the word evolves which makes it a broader term cuz not everybody evolves with it.

Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 09, 2014, 11:35:52 AM
Wow. It seems so obvious now that stealth is yet another spectrum...from a kind of "stealth option," to "absolute stealth".

This would be a fascinating research topic. We trans people are somethin' else! 

I'm sure it would make a good PHD thesis for a psych grad.

A lady recently came to my trans support group.  She was total stealth for 15+ years, no one outside her immediate family had any idea.  But she realized that it was still causing her anxiety and shame, even after all these years.  There was very little chance of anyone finding out, but it was still at the top of her mind all the time.  So she decided to start being more active in the community again and to just stop worrying about being figured out. 

All-out stealth takes a lot of work...and it sounds really stressful.  And it just isn't necessary like it used to be.

I'd rather believe it's the person rather than the appearance, or as a great man said it's not the appearance , but rather the character of the individual, to paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King.