Quote from: Keira on November 01, 2007, 04:36:33 PM

Racheal, your own past messages seems to go counter to the instant socialisation claim.

And also, what on earth do you mean!! I'm in university and work, have female friends, go clubbing, and everything and nobody knows.

Is that instant socialisation? Did I know everything that needs to be learned? If I see some new thing women do in a new setting I've never been in, do I tune out any new information I come about because I'm complete now?

Maybe we should call it socialised enough to get by in the first days, then a quick reinforcement in the following days. But, socialisation is an ongoing process. I'm sure I've done some faux-pas that got some of my friend scratching their heads, especially in the beginning.

uh, no, i wasnt suggesting it was instant, dispite my useless wording, i meant that my baseline programming was coded to female socialisation, so i picked it up quite quickly once i actually began to meet other females....
what do i mean?  dont treat me like i am uttering maddness, please learn to read as well as club and go out...
i mean somehow, my manerisms are entirely natural now, my voice sound, and patterns are female, my behaviour, way i interact socially, etc, are all female, i was trying to load OSX on a pc, and finally found out that windows existed, and it fits.... (rubbish analogy, please shoot me) things just started to go right, ok, you might be stealth, or not out, i dont really care, what your expeiences are impart in no way on mine, let me give my opinion or experiences without jumping in to counteract me, its getting annoying haveing a shaddow trying to outdo me at every corner...
R

Quote from: Alison on November 01, 2007, 04:46:11 PM
The issue I'm still having with this thread is there is a feeling of "if you don't convince ME that you are ______ I will think you're just faking."

If someone transitions easier then someone else?  great, good for them, but it doesn't make the other person any less valid.  Comments like "you can just -tell- when someone doesn't have *it*" Have the aire of eminence to them.

Why can't we just unequivocally accept each other? 

as Kate said:

QuoteI think we need ENDA legislation to protect us from "our own" sometimes

Can't we all just get along?   

I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Quote
I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Nero - I wasn't intending you slap you (or anyone else) in the face.. 

I think we might be using different definitions of the word 'natural'

-----
Now this argument is difficult to word for me because I really don't think behaviors can be gendered, but I concede that most people do, or else gender stereotypes wouldn't exist.

So if this is hard to read or you don't understand let me know and I'll try to reword it.
-----

I agree that "behaving like your gender role" is natural in that thats what gender your (soul, spirit, brain whatever you wish) was from day 1.  So when you see examples of other people behaving like [your preferred gender role] you consciously -- or more then likely subconsciously, take note -- (JUST like every cisgendered person out there.)

However I don't think that certain behaviors that are attributed to [your gender roles] were programmed into you from day 1 -- they were learned.  Just like you learned to walk, and ride a bike.  Now -- more then likely you have been LEARNING to act like [your gender roles] since birth.  I never -ever- said you started learning at transition. 

My saying that you learned to walk isn't a slap in the face, neither is my saying you learned other behaviors.

But let me reiterate -- feeling like you are [your gender] is NOT learned -- it just IS...   It's the behaviors that are learned. 

So, in other words, acting like yourself DID come naturally, of course it did... you've been working on it since you were born

Alison,
That's exactly what I'm trying to say... Seemingly not very well...

Your innate gender makes you pay less or not attention to social cues of your birth sex directed at you since day one.

Depending how much exposure you had to your target gender cues, you'll be socialised (gender reflected in gender behavior) to varying degree in that target gender.

For a FTM, You're exposure may be totally external seeing guys do things, or you may be a tomboy and be one of the guys which brings a better socialisation.

If a FTM has just about no view of the male world because of the context of upbriging, then I'd assume they'd make very poor females (since they don't absorb the information on how to be female) and would have poor social skills in general (since male skills would also be lacking).

Same thing, in the opposite direction for MTF. If you had almost no contacts with girls from birth, then you may get female socialisation cues from your mother, but this is a limited view and its also a socialisation from a prior generation than your own.


I wonder if that explains why many older TS, socialised in a time of very separated social gender roles generally have more problems breaking away from male socialisation. I see this all the times in support groups. I also see clearly when socialisation came from external vision only. Often they've got a lot of problems integrating themselves with other females at a closer level. They do have female acquaintances, but not many close friends. That's also some experience I learned by listening in support groups.

Quote from: Alison on November 02, 2007, 01:17:27 AM

Quote
I accept everyone. The issue I and others like me have is that when people claim that gender behaviour is socialization, that dismisses the experiences of others to whom it came naturally.
Some of us suffered horribly due to inability to 'learn' our birth sex. All the learning and socialization in the world could not help some of us who behaved like our target sex from birth.
Claiming it's 'learned' is like a slap in the face.

Nero - I wasn't intending you slap you (or anyone else) in the face.. 

I think we might be using different definitions of the word 'natural'

-----
Now this argument is difficult to word for me because I really don't think behaviors can be gendered, but I concede that most people do, or else gender stereotypes wouldn't exist.

So if this is hard to read or you don't understand let me know and I'll try to reword it.
-----

I agree that "behaving like your gender role" is natural in that thats what gender your (soul, spirit, brain whatever you wish) was from day 1.  So when you see examples of other people behaving like [your preferred gender role] you consciously -- or more then likely subconsciously, take note -- (JUST like every cisgendered person out there.)

However I don't think that certain behaviors that are attributed to [your gender roles] were programmed into you from day 1 -- they were learned.  Just like you learned to walk, and ride a bike.  Now -- more then likely you have been LEARNING to act like [your gender roles] since birth.  I never -ever- said you started learning at transition. 

My saying that you learned to walk isn't a slap in the face, neither is my saying you learned other behaviors.

But let me reiterate -- feeling like you are [your gender] is NOT learned -- it just IS...   It's the behaviors that are learned. 

So, in other words, acting like yourself DID come naturally, of course it did... you've been working on it since you were born

Quote from: Keira on November 02, 2007, 02:05:34 AM
Alison,
That's exactly what I'm trying to say... Seemingly not very well...

Your innate gender makes you pay less or not attention to social cues of your birth sex directed at you since day one.

Depending how much exposure you had to your target gender cues, you'll be socialised (gender reflected in gender behavior) to varying degree in that target gender.

For a FTM, You're exposure may be totally external seeing guys do things, or you may be a tomboy and be one of the guys which brings a better socialisation.

If a FTM has just about no view of the male world because of the context of upbriging, then I'd assume they'd make very poor females (since they don't absorb the information on how to be female) and would have poor social skills in general (since male skills would also be lacking).

Same thing, in the opposite direction for MTF. If you had almost no contacts with girls from birth, then you may get female socialisation cues from your mother, but this is a limited view and its also a socialisation from a prior generation than your own.


I wonder if that explains why many older TS, socialised in a time of very separated social gender roles generally have more problems breaking away from male socialisation. I see this all the times in support groups. I also see clearly when socialisation came from external vision only. Often they've got a lot of problems integrating themselves with other females at a closer level. They do have female acquaintances, but not many close friends. That's also some experience I learned by listening in support groups.

Thanks guys. Maybe we were all traveling the same path, unseen by me.

Keira, I think I may be starting to get what you're saying.
I don't know. I never had any friends as a child, just a best guy friend here and there.

Quote from: Rachael on November 01, 2007, 03:38:58 PM
im actually against your theory kiera, i was raised with reinforced masculine thingys, and was actively punished for feminine behaviour as the doctors told my parents to do. (genetal correction at birth to male) i was at an all boys school from 2-18, and have very little female contact, yet ariving at university, i instantly socialised as female...
R

Believe it or not, punishment can reinforce the behavior being punished.  It is getting attention, after all, and that is preferable to being ignored.

worked dinit? im not complaining 
R

             I recently had a life experience that reinforced my belief that more of our behavior than we realize comes from within as opposed to being learned.

             I recently met my older sister for the first time. When my mother was a teen she gave her up for adoption when she was born. I had no idea I had another sister when she found me and called. Sadly my mother passed away years ago and never had contact with my sister after giving her up.

             My new sister has the same mannerisms as my mother, she walks like her and sounds like her and is similar in so many ways. We share many traits and had an instant bond the moment we met. We are born with so very much more than we are aware of. Do you know my sister and I have the same exact car, the same year and the same color?



beth

 Re: Does gender behaviour come naturally? 

most of it is innate; some of it is learnt.  i wholeheartedly concord with beth on this one.

But what does innate mean in this case? How does innate knows where the person is and account for variability. Its too broad a term.

It must be defined further.

That's why I was talking about the learning maps being innate and related to gender (and sex) and then it takes whatever its in the current society that corresponds to it and integrates it into behavior.

There are instinctual responses like reproduction, and some sexual behaviors are seemingly plugged in. like mounting in males. But the set of such behaviors in generally very precise and doesn't vary much.

Since the brain is a neural network, the description I but forth
makes the most sense.

The do neural pathways just take everything in and devellop totally environmentally or there's a mapping between external inputs and how they're translated into the brain.

That doesn't preclude siblings of same sex having similar mappings, which would explain the great ressemblances in resulting actions. Even seperated, the way the information was absorbed and built upon was similar.

But, if that was so easy, they'd be conclusive proof, but again, there's just hints. Human behavior is very very complex.

its funny, when i still knew my family, my sister was more of a boy than i ever was! i blame my parents genes.... how could both kids get so mixed? I belive gender behavior, is just a part of personality, my sister deffinately isnt trans, shes just butch. and fairly happy with that. she is NO less female, with the butchness however, nobody would mistake her behavior for anyhting but a butch girl.  behavior mapping isnt always linked to gender, but it sure helps.
R

Quote from: Keira on November 03, 2007, 01:26:27 AM

But what does innate mean in this case? How does innate knows where the person is and account for variability. Its too broad a term.

It must be defined further.

That's why I was talking about the learning maps being innate and related to gender (and sex) and then it takes whatever its in the current society that corresponds to it and integrates it into behavior.

There are instinctual responses like reproduction, and some sexual behaviors are seemingly plugged in. like mounting in males. But the set of such behaviors in generally very precise and doesn't vary much.

Since the brain is a neural network, the description I but forth
makes the most sense.

The do neural pathways just take everything in and devellop totally environmentally or there's a mapping between external inputs and how they're translated into the brain.

That doesn't preclude siblings of same sex having similar mappings, which would explain the great ressemblances in resulting actions. Even seperated, the way the information was absorbed and built upon was similar.

But, if that was so easy, they'd be conclusive proof, but again, there's just hints. Human behavior is very very complex.

Well, the 'mapping' thing is a good theory, and may be part of it. But I really believe the only 'learned' stuff is social cues and the like. The superficial stuff - like 'boys don't do X, girls don't do X'. I'm accustomed to having a lot of freedom and not being bound by that stuff. For instance, I have to learn when it's not acceptable to come on to random guys. lol

Nero, the mapping thing goes well beyond social cues, that's why maybe everybody feel its innate, if everything processed is mapped by gender into the brain. Everything about you, even how you feel about different things, which is not reflected directly in society, will be influenced.

For example, women usually are more liberal on social issues than men. Women tend to be more liberal than men as a group and is reflected in almost all their actions. This goes way beyond social clues.

I think gender creates a learning matrix that influences how personality is formed. Actiion and behavior is just a small part of the whole.

Quote from: Keira on November 03, 2007, 05:50:42 PM
For example, women usually are more liberal on social issues than men. Women tend to be more liberal than men as a group and is reflected in almost all their actions.

Hmm That's really interesting. Never thought about that before. Does seem to be true. Any theories as to why that is?

Hmmm, go off for a couple of months and find web discussions everywhere about innate qualities. Yet, none of the discussions are about height, weight, hair color, eye color, bone structure or even neural patterning.

And, lo, there are all kinds of discussions that give someone a chance to say how natural this all comes to her or him. And I don't doubt that.

I think that some of the conditioning vs innate debate is a matter of misunderstanding each other.

Ummm, female-brained infant in male body. Early childhood education, still, for the most part handled by women. Child sees certain similarities, until she is informed later that she is not who she imagined. In the meantime has tried to emulate who she thinks is like her. Gets "female" conditioning and then often discovers that those patterns are not acceptable,

She makes adjustments. Builds another conditioning layer over the first. But, still manages to gom up that second layer as some things are just too strongly identified with to discontinue. The pressure on her is, maybe, less strong than certain perks for behaving how she behaves.

Voila, discovers TS and transitions and finds it rather facile to "drop the layers." Returns to earlier model and adds software to that to be in an adult mode.

Another girl might have a different experience if she has different parents, teachers, mentors, etc.

Social behavior is about as close to entirely learned as anything we do. We have a built in necessity to relate to one another and to be social. Our weaning time is much too long for us to be anything but social creatures if the species is to survive.

Babies and adults thrive in relationship and often babies die simply from a lack of relationship: "failure to thrive." And adults develop all sorts of nasty personality and mood disorders from lack of relationship and connection.

Innate? Well, that we are social is innate. The forms that takes are basically acculturated.

One woman's opinion.

Hi Beth

QuoteMy new sister has the same mannerisms as my mother, she walks like her and sounds like her and is similar in so many ways. We share many traits and had an instant bond the moment we met. We are born with so very much more than we are aware of. Do you know my sister and I have the same exact car, the same year and the same color?

I can quite identify with this. I was raised by my mom and my sister and I were like twins except we were 4 years apart growing up on the homestead. We simply just ran together, as I did with another girlfriend, Helen, we also kind of grew up together, a five year relationship until her folks  and her just simply disappeared and I never saw my pal again.

I was quite surprised as to how many mannerisms one either remembers from the subconscious mind and from learned behavior as well once one comes out full time.

Cindy     

i think its safe to say women are individuals, and not scared to be within a social group, men tend to say what they think the group wants to hear, women will make thier view heard, while listening to the others, and there is often more debate and reasoning. even the debate isnt argument, or view forcing, more often than not, its explaining your view, so the others can understand.
Women have more social skills imo
R