I think it would be educational to get a more definitive picture of this.  Please vote in the poll.

Also different things work for different people, this poll in no way represents what is best for you.  I would appreciate, if posters who want to share their experience with various forms of estrogen therapy, if posters would please also share body type, blood type, activity level, diet type(red meat common, lots of fruit, etc), even stress levels, anything and everything possible that you personally think could contribute to why someone works for you but didn't work for someone else.  Caffiene intake also plays a decent role, or any stimulant usage, I THINK, that caffiene could really screw someone taking estrogen orally over due to speeding up the metabolism between doses.

This isn't a corny attempt to diagnose or provide medical advice, just to see how it plays out and see if there's any consistency between differeny body types and lifestyle factors that make people more receptive to one form of estrogen over another.

EDIT:
DO NOT POST A CLAIM WITHOUT CITING A REFERENCE TO PROVE IT.  THIS THREAD IS BEING TAKEN OVER BY PEOPLE TOTING THEIR, "SUBLINGUAL ABSORPTION IS GOD" STUFF AND YET THERE IS YET TO BE ONE ARTICLE ON IT.

injectables are way in front so it looks like I'm going to have to find an outlet to access them in the U.K

Quote from: Berliegh on January 07, 2008, 08:36:16 AM
injectables are way in front so it looks like I'm going to have to find an outlet to access them in the U.K

HOld up until there at atleast 20 votes!

Yeesh.

I was on oral hormones in my early teens.  My dosages were highly inconsistent between fighting with my rents to stay on it and ending up in mental hospitals all the time and such, but I had begun to see a tid bit of development.  I'm thinking about talking to the doc about patches, or combining patches with oral, or even injectables.

I can't say much about fat redistribution, I wish I had some to redistribute.  My BF% as of now is under 4% which is insane.  I try really hard to not drink caffiene, but school has started back up so it is going to be a necessity for me to pass, atleast during lectures.  My diet is pretty healthy except I have a pretty crazy sweet tooth for cakes and cookies and wafers.  I workout every day pretty vigorously, with some moderately difficult cardio and then weight lifting, mostly leg stuff or powerlifting.  That and I ride my bike a few miles a day as it's my transportation device.  I'm currently on oral right now, but I'm gonna talk to my gender therapist about what she's noticed in general with her clients.  I honestly have just a good feeling about injectables, as far as the effects go, like an intuitive thing.  But, the concept of sticking a needle into myself is rather unnerving.

Please people, bring in some posts, all there are is 3 votes and I don't think I have enough knowledge to participate yet!

I can't say which works best, since I've never been on injections (and don't plan to).

And my doc has me on BOTH orals and patches, so... not sure how to answer this

Aside from my breasts, I pretty happy with my results though... for someone who looks like a maniacal pixie now.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 07, 2008, 01:01:27 PM
I can't say which works best, since I've never been on injections (and don't plan to).

And my doc has me on BOTH orals and patches, so... not sure how to answer this

Aside from my breasts, I pretty happy with my results though... for someone who looks like a maniacal pixie now.

~Kate~

You're pretty tall and slim, aren't you Kate?

What's your diet, caffiene intake, and activity levels like?

Quote from: kalt on January 07, 2008, 01:11:54 PM
You're pretty tall and slim, aren't you Kate?

At 6'2", I'd say so Although my "pooch" or whatever they call it... the lower tummy thing... is there these days. My wife threatens to have me committed whenever I say that though, so I dunno if it's that bad.

QuoteWhat's your diet, caffiene intake, and activity levels like?

Around 1,500 cals per day. Pasta, rice and chicken mostly. Mix in cereal, some cheese, whole grain breads, eggs, assorted veggies, deli turkey, etc. now and then. Zero fast food. An occasional pizza or chinese. Water, but an occasional soda maybe every few days.

Caffeine from the rare sodas. I don't drink coffee. Tea very rarely.

Activity? LOL... none.

And yet, I'm healthy and happy

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 07, 2008, 01:45:50 PM
Around 1,500 cals per day. Pasta, rice and chicken mostly. Mix in cereal, some cheese, whole grain breads, eggs, assorted veggies, deli turkey, etc. now and then. Zero fast food. An occasional pizza or chinese. Water, but an occasional soda maybe every few days.

That's an admirable diet, it really is.

And your development is coming along just fine... but you were on oral and transdermal?

Quote from: kalt on January 07, 2008, 01:51:44 PM

Quote from: Kate on January 07, 2008, 01:45:50 PM
Around 1,500 cals per day. Pasta, rice and chicken mostly. Mix in cereal, some cheese, whole grain breads, eggs, assorted veggies, deli turkey, etc. now and then. Zero fast food. An occasional pizza or chinese. Water, but an occasional soda maybe every few days.

That's an admirable diet, it really is.

And your development is coming along just fine... but you were on oral and transdermal?

Thanks Kalt! Yea, it's pretty low on fat, but really high on carbs (the pasta and rice)... so I think the carbs all stick to my stomach, lol.

Yes, I've always had the same exact pills/patches regimen consistently throughout the 16 months of my HRT.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on January 07, 2008, 01:58:26 PM

Thanks Kalt! Yea, it's pretty low on fat, but really high on carbs (the pasta and rice)... so I think the carbs all stick to my stomach, lol.

Yes, I've always had the same exact pills/patches regimen consistently throughout the 16 months of my HRT.

~Kate~

So many people think carbs are a bad thing, but really carbs are the essence of life.  Photosynthesis produces carbs, carbs are the body's ideal form of energy, etc etc.

Thanks for sharing Kate.  Now if everyone else would quit being so shy and share^_^

I don't think I have a right to share since I haven't been on this HRT long enough

Hey,

I've been orals since a teenager and not had any problems and I'm almost a C cup...now mind you...that it does sort of depend on your genetics and you family history in breast size....the same goes for your sensitivity to estrogen in general, but typically the younger you are the more sensitive you most likely will be to estrogen.

I don't think that any of these methods are better or worse then the other for development...the main difference you may also be seeing is age at work...for those over 40 the preference is for injectable since it is easer on the liver...only takes on pass, while orals require two...which is why it's important to have liver function checked at least yearly or twice a year if you show any potential problems with the liver.

Just my 2 cents...

Peace and love,
Isabelle St-Pierre

As one gets older the level of human growth hormone subsides. The action of E and progesterone are both affected by hgh. One's feminization, and other body-changes, tends to be better the more hgh one's body produces. That's been the big draw of hgh for body-builders and professional athletes who abuse both hgh and steroids.

There are ways even an older person can try to increase their naturally occurring levels of hgh w/o resorting to using black-market substitutes.

I do use injectables and swear by them. No negative results. There is a "more than enough' limit with E, as there is with pretty much anything else. The receptors do 'tire' of it above certain levels. Anyone, imo, should discuss these matters with an endo and before doing so should make himself or herself knowledgeable enough to carry on the conversation.

Make sure your doctor stays up-to-date. Lotsa docs know what was considered 'good' when they left residency or ten years ago when they started working with TSes. Docs don't always maintain their reading and study. They should be updated when necessary, but to do that you have to be a well-researched consumer who knows his or her stuff.

There are many reliable TS health info pages available on the internet. Take your time and read and get some knowledge for yourself. Anecdotal evidence like we are giving may not be best for anyone but us. I think that to abdicate any responsibility for knowing about myself and what I am doing is totally irresponsible and downright dangerous.

There are few if any clinical trials done to date using data on TS women. What little is done is mostly being done by the Amsterdam (Holland) Free University. As was mentioned in a different thread yesterday, there IS very little clinical research and cause and effect are often 'qualified' by what has not been ruled out as part of the cause/effect equation.

The poll is kinda neat, Kalt; but I think we will mostly answer with what we use or what we think we should be using and the voting will reflect that fact.

HRT can be wonderful, is in fact. But there are also dangers that entail from it. To rely on hearsay from this forum or any other without doing the research yourself seems to me a very misguided way to make determinations about one's health and regimen.

Do the leg work and work with your doctor in every way you can. Please do not rely on what I or anyone else says is our experience as it is very likely to differ from yours or maybe from anyone's.

Nichole 

Posted on: January 07, 2008, 04:14:37 PM

---

P.S. -- I have worked much with and around doctors. They often get much of their prescribing info from pharmaceutical reps who also buy them nice lunches and dinners and pay for their vacations, conference appearances, etc.

Another good reason to know information yourself. Beware and be safe.

I take E sublingually, and progesterone orally.  I have had great results.
Injectibles are not for everybody.
I have a friends who could not get their testosterone to female levels without injections.

I will say that it is whatever works for you. How much luck one has with hrt is largely dependent on genetics and hgh anyway. 

Nichole, you brought up a very good point with the HGH.  I recall a few other testimonials, that the people who've had the best feminising effects from hormones, even later in life, were those who went to the gym.  working out, specifically total body max efforts(powerlifting, heavy leg work, compound lift maxouts, etc), have been shown to increase testosterone and HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE.  Testosterone isn't a big deal when on an anti androgen, in fact I've never known anyone except cyclists who cycle for hours each day lose their boobs or whatever.  But I have seen some female powerlifters who got a big bigger in the chest area, and they were OLY lifters so it wasn't chest muscle(the clean & press and the jerk don't use the pectoralis major).  So maybe, just maybe, that's that secret to getting hips and distance between legs some people talk about!

A lot of people seem to go by injectables.  The human body naturally has spikes in hormonal levels, I suppose it only makes sense that those people who are on injected and have spikes too benefit.

All in all, we really need to know more.  Like you said Nichole, this is in no way for people to substitute for professional medical advice in any way at all.  It's just something for a bunch of people who've, "been there done that" to talk about it, ya know?

Yep, I do know, Kalt. The thread's quite good, so far.

Sometimes I think we maybe owe it to guests and newly transitioning or 'about to transitioners' a bit more than 'I do this and I look great.' (Yikes, we all say that don't we!!! *giggle*) Anyhow, a word of caution to the untutored was all that was meant to be.

N~

I can't say, since I've never tried patches... though I plan to eventually.

Injectables will technically always give you better results, since they contain a higher ratio of estradiol:estrone than pills.  But, it might not really be that much of a difference in practical terms.

Lia

Hi Nichole I also take inject-ables. Wing Walker and I were both together in DC when we were prescribed the injectables by her Physician. I don't know much about the potency and possible reaction from these different hormones, but we were told the injectable were safer because they bypass the liver and spreads out more evenly through the body. Well I count myself lucky that I got any reactions at all because of my age, but I did. My breasts are pretty well in proportion to my body size  legs are not match sticks anymore, and I do have some hips, but I also got pot that I don't like. I just wish it would go somewhere else. But even then I have had lots of people think I'm younger then I am. I guess that may have a lot to do with the main I have for hair to.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on January 07, 2008, 05:08:29 PM
Hi Nichole I also take inject-ables. Wing Walker and I were both together in DC when we were prescribed the injectables by her Physician. I don't know much about the potency and possible reaction from these different hormones, but we were told the injectable were safer because they bypass the liver and spreads out more evenly through the body. Well I count myself lucky that I got any reactions at all because of my age, but I did. My breasts are pretty well in proportion to my body size  legs are not match sticks anymore, and I do have some hips, but I also got pot that I don't like. I just wish it would go somewhere else. But even then I have had lots of people think I'm younger then I am. I guess that may have a lot to do with the main I have for hair to.

Cindy

Yeah, I get the same. We older broads sometimes do better than we were led to expect.

Like Amy said, genetics (I always thank Goddess for my ancestry) and hgh levels (which is probably also genetic) make major differences.

The rule-of-thumb I have always seen, and that mostly works out pretty well, is that you can expect in most cases about a 10 year difference in age-look on hrt. A lot of that will also have to do w/ genetics and how much damage you may have done to skin, etc before beginning.

Hell, it's a crap-shoot often enough. No one really knows until it happens.

BTW, your hair is gorgeous. Lucky girl!

Nichole

Quote from: genovais on January 07, 2008, 04:51:39 PM
I can't say, since I've never tried patches... though I plan to eventually.

Injectables will technically always give you better results, since they contain a higher ratio of estradiol:estrone than pills.  But, it might not really be that much of a difference in practical terms.

Lia

How do you figure that, and have you got any literature to share supporting it?

Hi Nichole
Ancestry hmmmm one side, on my mom's side is Iroquois and the on my dads side was French.
How does one find out about their genetic makeup?

Cindy