I write this knowing it may upset a few, so sorry if it does, send me a PM telling me what a a-hole I am but let's try to keep the conversation on topic..

Maybe it's been that long since I transitioned, maybe I'm out of touch, but something popped up on my Facebook feed the other night and I bit.

It was a pre-out person venting how she hasn't told her wife that she has been on hormones for a few months and she's worried that when she tells her their marriage will be over.

I reiled that her wife would be more likely to leave for not telling her the truth than for being transgendered and she bit my head off.

Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?

Well imo all we can do is guide people and make suggestions.

If its done too aggressively in their opinion they may react emotionally.

They probably tried to talk to their spouse indirectly but got a neg message.

Imo talking may help. And maybe a gender therapist helping explaining.
But if its the view of the spouse they want to leave its their opinion.

Imo it also depends on the partnerhip.
Imo it should be possible to talk each other on a deep level. But some people may feel its not possible.

All in all imo communication should help.


hugs

Quote from: Nicole on May 12, 2016, 05:33:15 AM
I write this knowing it may upset a few, so sorry if it does, send me a PM telling me what a a-hole I am but let's try to keep the conversation on topic..

Maybe it's been that long since I transitioned, maybe I'm out of touch, but something popped up on my Facebook feed the other night and I bit.

It was a pre-out person venting how she hasn't told her wife that she has been on hormones for a few months and she's worried that when she tells her their marriage will be over.

I reiled that her wife would be more likely to leave for not telling her the truth than for being transgendered and she bit my head off.

Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?

Imo, I don't think it's a lack of understanding trans people. To me, love is a precious thing, you want to protect it, nuture it, love it. I think your friend is just afraid of hurting her wife. When someone comes out as trans in a relationship, it really can put a strain on things. It's a two way street here, either the wife will leave, or the wife will be accepting and nothing bad happens. There is some explaining that should be done, explaining why they didn't come out right from the start, and if the wife understands, then hopefully they would stay together. It is selfish what she's doing keeping it from her wife, but at the same time I can understand why she's hiding it from her wife.

Quote from: Nicole on May 12, 2016, 05:33:15 AM
Now is she just that uneducated that she doesn't get it or are we breeding a generaton of selfish liars who will do almost everything to get what they want and don't care who they hurt?

I think its wrong to do that, but I don't think we're anything special. Being transgender doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else, and we encompass the full range or human behavior, good and bad.

A very clear example of this is trans people who are intolerant to other trans people. Just goes to show you that for all the intolerance we suffer, "we" are just as capable of doing the same as anyone else.

I doubt we're breeding a new generation that's any different to the previous one. I find human nature quite disappointing.

I agree with AnonyMs.
We are a segment of society..a group of individuals. And in any group such as we, there will be a few who are reckless in how very important things are handled. Sadly, the writer may lose her wife either way. But also sadly, reckless happens in all walks of life and it is a reflection on society rather than any particular segment.

To be brutally honest with you Nicole, I'm not entirely onboard with you.

For me, being a good friend means listening, empathising, being supportive and caring for my friends.  I advise or counsel my friends if they ask for my opinion or advice. Sometimes if they are lost, I just help explore options by asking questions.  I wouldn't want a friend being judgemental about my struggles or assertive over me when I am vulnerable (exception if I am at risk of imminent physical harm to myself or others).

I find your last paragraph a little bit disturbing.  It kind of sounds like 'honesty' is an important value for you, and possibly your support of your friend may have come into conflict with this.  I'd be devastated if I turned to a friend for support while I was struggling with the uncertainty of my marriage's future, and I received the kind of judgemental response contained in your last paragraph. It doesn't sound like the kind of words any friend of mine would use to describe me while I was down and out.

Are you sure the importance you place on 'honesty' as a core value is not interfering with your ability to be a supportive friend?

Just a thought - based on the limited facts available....

I tend to agree with Nicole but I also think that should you decide to live stealth and marry, your partner should be aware of your status. A marriage binds two people together as one and the only secrets that should exist in the marriage might be something like a security clearance. Problems as well as the good things are meant to be shared.

I would want to help my partner however I could even if it was to provide emotional support. I have already seen far to many cases where the somebody started HRT without telling their partner and the partner was more upset about the secret than the fact they were transgender.

Perhaps i'm way off-base with this (my apologies if so), but here goes. You are coming from a place where you have lived this life for years and you have undoubtedly spent much time during those years thinking about it and working toward a place of enlightenment, peace, and acceptance. You have made the journey and you speak from hard-won experience.

Perhaps you don't recall what those early years of discovery were like - the relentless pressure that comes from GD; the rash decisions that we all make; the impulsiveness; the poor judgement; the hopelessness of being in a relationship and fearing what being trans is going to do to that relationship.

I think that this person is in that place of uncertainty and was hoping for some reassurance. What you posted was the truth, but perhaps this person was not in a place to accept that truth - and thats why you got the harsh reaction.

"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:

At the first gate, ask yourself "Is is true?"

At the second gate ask, "Is it necessary?"

At the third gate ask, "Is it kind?"

~ Rumi

I don't think that we are
Breeding a generation of selfish liars, but fear is a really big motivator for some and can be more powerful that holding your own. I absolutely share the same opinion as you--but that doesn't necessarily mean others a wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Another take on this subject. Two years ago I accepted who I am and Denny became Denni. After living in the shadows for a lifetime Denni became stronger each day. After one year she decided it was time to tell her wife who she really was. It was something that many have gone through already but had a result that I mistakenly never thought of. Looking back on it now I should have gradually worked toward it and not everything at once. My wife has been on meds for some time for mild depression, well that suddenly became major after telling her. If something would have happened to her I would not have been able to live with myself. Since then we have basically gone back to the way it was before, with me living my life as Denni but doing nothing to draw attention to myself. My dysphoria has gotten to the point where I am seriously considering going on low dose HRT to soften it. I obviously will not be able to tell my wife if I go forward, and after much research, reading, and helpful information on this site I feel confident that the results will be negligible as far as physical changes to not draw any additional attention. The emotional changes are much anticipated and I think will help as my life goes on. Again another take on this subject, thoughts? Thanks

Probably because of that reason, the surgeon refused to give me prescription for HRT, although the psychiatrist allowed it. The surgeon said to me that he will do if I visit again with my wife. And I already gave up HRT even before telling it to my wife.

The surgeon explained me that the effects of HRT are far more dramatic than just crossdressing, and most wives would not tolerate it.

barbie~~

I don't understand sometimes either

On lying, well, who supports that?  I know the hardest person to come out to is often considered to be yourself.  Did I lie to myself and the world for decades?  Yes by omission, and there are shades of grey or mitigating circumstances when we weigh the potential harm of uncertainty and complete disclosure about something we often do not fully understand or simply repress as untrue.  My partner knew me all along and we did this together, like most everything in our lives

Selfish much?  Philosophers consider whether altruism even exists.  No doubt our internal focus during self discovery and transition are reasonably an obsession of sorts as it takes considerable time, $, and energy to work through the challenges we face.  We do need to accept and even love ourselves to realize our potential IMHO.

Honesty, empathy, sharing and compassion are laudable traits that are worth developing.  How do we best encourage that in ourselves and our community?

Fear of loss drives people to behavior that it they would not exhibit otherwise. The fear of isolation is probably one of the largest human fears. I can empathize with the person you describe, but like you i question her wisdom.

All of us who transition with a spouse have to understand there is a risk of driving a wedge in the marriage that is unsurmountable. I read in the recent study about 50% of young married folks divorce over it, and perhaps 60-70% of older married folks do (i would have thought it should be flipped, but that is what it said)

When i told my wife i wanted to transition and begin HRT, we had a lot of work to do (despite the fact she always knew me as a feminine guy) and that work is ongoing. We both are committed though and i would say we are now closer than we were in the past. She would agree.

I'm guilty of keeping things from her, I've not been a princess/prince of good behavior at times, but i've learned as we have aged, that trust is more important than avoidance of conflict. I've also learned that very important fact that not all disagreement will be resolved. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree and move on.

One could question marriages that are fragile enough that fundamental fears and struggles cannot be expressed between spouses. But i feel a little moralist in doing so, because i know that we are all imperfect beings that attempt to pair up for life, and we get all the good and bad that goes with that.

I don't think it's a new generation thing; I think people have been doing this for many generations already, and that it is driven by fear, as others have said.

However, I also think you're right about the risks - my wife has spent years in support groups helping other partners of trans people, and one of the biggest predictors that a marriage will fail is the partner's sense of betrayal/belief that there was deceit. Which goes double if the trans person starts  HRT without telling them. So, yes, it is entirely possible that by a choice born of fear and to protect their marriage, this person has doomed their relationship.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on May 12, 2016, 08:59:05 AM
"Before you speak, let your words pass through three gates:

At the first gate, ask yourself "Is is true?"

At the second gate ask, "Is it necessary?"

At the third gate ask, "Is it kind?"

~ Rumi

I really like that Devlyn.

Nicole, I feel we really don't have enough information to judge.

I know my wife has basically said if I start E, our relationship is over.  We've been married for close to 30 years.  She's known almost from the start that I've been battling this.  She has refused to go to a therapists as a couple or by herself.  She doesn't want to talk about anything transgender.  So I'm struggling with my dysphoria taking spiro.   It sort of helps but not much.   I'm between a rock and a hard place.  Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage?  Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.

I'm sure the answer is easier for some, but I have no clue what to do.  Perhaps my example shows that it might not be as black and white as you think.

Take care,
Paige

Quote from: Paige on May 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM
I'm between a rock and a hard place.  Do I try to alleviate my dysphoria by taking low dose E and not telling her or tell her that I'm starting E and lose my marriage?  Or do nothing and continue to suffer for the rest of my life.

I am right with you Paige. I have even been so desperate and frustrated with my situation that I permanently reduced T production. Afterwards, I talked with my doctors and wife about all of it. They did not believe I needed a Psych eval for that, but it does show how much I love my wife and family, but that am having a very difficult time with my wife and kids unwillingness to accept that I am Trans. So I live as a Man, take very low E, only a bit of Spiro, and continue to desire electrolysis each morning as I despise shaving my face and neck. Some days I am ok as a man. Some days not...not today. Not when I have not had much E. I think I do better when I focus on God, the Bible and wife and kids. I don't have a single person in my life that understands me, and accepts the good and trans in me.

The thing I think you all miss, which by the way I have tested and proven in my own life, and that of my fiancee susan too, is that most of the time people will continue to be obstructive just long enough for you to prove your determination. Once they see your mind is settled they usually back off and eventually come around. The point is if you chicken out or blink first you never reach that point, and live in the illusion that the problem is insoluble.

It's not, it's only insoluble if you give up before you reach the solution.

In short compromise and soft peddling is a silly notion... if you are going to it, do it come hell or high water. If not then don't, but as Yoda would say, "there is no try, there is only do or do not."

I was married. I lived in a very homophobic society (Mormon ville). I withheld my lie for a few years until I was discovered. I can't fathom doing that now. I have a broader perspective on life. I'm sure there are many who feel they are in the same position I was in. I do get it, even though I now feel it is wrong. We do live in a much more open society now. I still get it.

It's hard to use discretion when someone else seems to be doing the wrong thing. Sometimes we need to let people do stupid things. It is most unfortunate. But life is like that.

I don't think it should be looked at as a transgender thing , I think it's a human thing , honesty should always be the best policy.